Why Do 1.5 Billion People Follow Mohammed? (split off "Love Neighbor"- retitled)

[Peter]

....... when you are clearly not one,
I WAS UNDER THE IMPRESSION THAT THIS IS A RELIGIOUS BASED WEBSITE> .......

It is. But if someone comes proclaiming a religion, that has no historical basis whatsoever, that demonstrates it is nothing more than a cult. Belief without foundation. That's why the bible proclaims

1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

And why Mohammed proclaimed

"Allah has hated for you three things: ... 3. And asking too many questions (in disputed religious matters)." (Dr. Khan, Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol. 2, #555)

....... I am yet to discover the love Of the one true God this your topic reads.

But you have resisted it at every turn, and prefer to blaspheme the Savior of the world, instead. I show you the truth and you cast it asunder.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=877.msg7950#msg7950

What does your opinion or Rafat Amaris opinion matter in light of The Quran and the Hadith that is accepted to come from a man known as AL AMEEN (the truthful One) Authentic Hadith is corroborated, show me that Rafat AMARI's Data is confirmed by known scholars, I wasted my time reading some of his writings, very nice if you want to to know the history of Pagan Arabia, useless spiritually, as he confuses the issues and miss the point of Islam completely in his opinionated assumptions.

IT DOES NOT MATTER HOW MANY TIMES HE REPEATS AN OPINION IT DOES NOT MAKE A FACT, OR BIBLICAL OR CHANGES THE QURAN OR THE MINDS OF INTELLIGENT INFORMED MUSLIMS!

YOUR ANGLE IS WAY OFF AND VERY CHILDISH.

Indeed it doesn't change the Quran!
What it does do is show that Mohammed's religious rituals are nothing more than repackaged pagan Arabian moon, sun, star and jinn-demon worship, as even some of Mohammed's closest followers acknowledged.

Asem told us that he said to Uns bin Malek, a companion of Mohammed, “You were hating to encompass around the Safa and Marwa.”  He answered, “Yes, because it was one of the pagan rites of Jahiliyah  until Allah gave a verse that the Safa and Marwa are the rites of Allah. If one makes the Hajj to the Kaabah, he must encompass them. The person has no sin when he encompass them. (Sahih al-Bukhari, 2, page 171)

[Mujaheed]

Indeed it doesn't change the Quran!
What it does do is show that Mohammed's religious rituals are nothing more than repackaged pagan Arabian moon, sun, star and jinn-demon worship, as even some of Mohammed's closest followers acknowledged.

Asem told us that he said to Uns bin Malek, a companion of Mohammed, “You were hating to encompass around the Safa and Marwa.”  He answered, “Yes, because it was one of the pagan rites of Jahiliyah  until Allah gave a verse that the Safa and Marwa are the rites of Allah. If one makes the Hajj to the Kaabah, he must encompass them. The person has no sin when he encompass them. (Sahih al-Bukhari, 2, page 171)
[/quote]

This why I feel so sorry for you, tsk tsk tsk
Volume 2, Book 26, Number 710:

Narrated 'Asim:

I asked Anas bin Malik: "Did you use to dislike to perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa?" He said, "Yes, as it was of the ceremonies of the days of the Pre-lslamic period of ignorance, till Allah revealed: 'Verily! (The two mountains) As-Safa and Al-Marwa are among the symbols of Allah. It is therefore no sin for him who performs the pilgrimage to the Ka'ba, or performs 'Umra, to perform Tawaf between them.' " (2.158)


Volume 2, Book 26, Number 706:

Narrated 'Urwa:

I asked 'Aisha : "How do you interpret the statement of Allah,. : Verily! (the mountains) As-Safa and Al-Marwa are among the symbols of Allah, and whoever performs the Hajj to the Ka'ba or performs 'Umra, it is not harmful for him to perform Tawaf between them (Safa and Marwa.) (2.158). By Allah! (it is evident from this revelation) there is no harm if one does not perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa." 'Aisha said, "O, my nephew! Your interpretation is not true. Had this interpretation of yours been correct, the statement of Allah should have been, 'It is not harmful for him if he does not perform Tawaf between them.' But in fact, this divine inspiration was revealed concerning the Ansar who used to assume lhram for worship ping an idol called "Manat" which they used to worship at a place called Al-Mushallal before they embraced Islam, and whoever assumed Ihram (for the idol), would consider it not right to perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa.

When they embraced Islam, they asked Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) regarding it, saying, "O Allah's Apostle! We used to refrain from Tawaf between Safa and Marwa." So Allah revealed: 'Verily; (the mountains) As-Safa and Al-Marwa are among the symbols of Allah.' " Aisha added, "Surely, Allah's Apostle set the tradition of Tawaf between Safa and Marwa, so nobody is allowed to omit the Tawaf between them." Later on I ('Urwa) told Abu Bakr bin 'Abdur-Rahman (of 'Aisha's narration) and he said, 'i have not heard of such information, but I heard learned men saying that all the people, except those whom 'Aisha mentioned and who used to assume lhram for the sake of Manat, used to perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa.

When Allah referred to the Tawaf of the Ka'ba and did not mention Safa and Marwa in the Quran, the people asked, 'O Allah's Apostle! We used to perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa and Allah has revealed (the verses concerning) Tawaf of the Ka'ba and has not mentioned Safa and Marwa. Is there any harm if we perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa?' So Allah revealed: "Verily As-Safa and Al-Marwa are among the symbols of Allah." Abu Bakr said, "It seems that this verse was revealed concerning the two groups, those who used to refrain from Tawaf between Safa and Marwa in the Pre-lslamic Period of ignorance and those who used to perform the Tawaf then, and after embracing Islam they refrained from the Tawaf between them as Allah had enjoined Tawaf of the Ka'ba and did not mention Tawaf (of Safa and Marwa) till later after mentioning the Tawaf of the Ka'ba.'



Please reference your quotations correctly.
STOP REGURGITATING IGNORANT RHETORIC THAT IS WRITTEN TO MAKE YOU APPEAR LIKE THE SCRIBES AND PHARISEES JESUS WARNED US ABOUT.

Repackaged nothing, Jinns are clearly explained and we are warned to guard ourselves against them,

Everything is clear in the Quran and Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad, every answer one needs concerning all the Prophets of THE GOD ALLAH.

IT IS TIME TO ASK THE RIGHT QUESTIONS PETER,
I PRAY FOR GUIDANCE EVERYDAY, FIVE TIMES A DAY APPROXIMATELY 12 Times I ASK FOR THE FOLLOWING.
O' ALLAH GUIDE US ON THE STRAIGHT PATH THE PATH OF THE RIGHTLY GUIDE (PROPHETS AND SAINTS AND THE DESCIPLES OF JESUS)

[Mujaheed]

....... when you are clearly not one,
I WAS UNDER THE IMPRESSION THAT THIS IS A RELIGIOUS BASED WEBSITE> .......

It is. But if someone comes proclaiming a religion, that has no historical basis whatsoever, that demonstrates it is nothing more than a cult. Belief without foundation. That's why the bible proclaims

1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Many Scholars have from recent archeological finds concluded that PARAN is MAkkah here is one of them, Mount Sinai is in Makkah and has proven that the interpretation of many of the Gospels have been falsified by the then BIASED SCHOLARS, myth seem to have become fact with repition.

WAS PARAN MAKKAH OR NEAR MAKKAH???

The Ishmaelites were Arabs and not Egyptians.  They came from the Arabian desert; "As they sat down to eat their meal, they looked up and saw a caravan of Ishmaelites coming from Gilead.  Their camels were loaded with spices, balm and myrrh, and they were on their way to take them down to Egypt.   (From the NIV Bible, Genesis 37:25)"  "take them down to Egypt" means taking them to the land of Egypt.  It doesn't mean taking them toward the south direction.  When for instance you say "my house is right down the street", it doesn't mean the house is south of the street.  The house could be on the north side.  The sentence means that the house is on the street, or will be found if the person walks in the path that you lead him to.

The point however in the above Verse is that the Ishmaelites were not from Egypt.  They came from another land.  They had loaded camels and they were heading to Egypt.  Arabs used to rely heavily on camels for traveling.  And as we've seen from the above Verses regarding Ishmael and his Mother (Hagar) living in the desert of Paran in the South, this clearly proves to us that the desert of Paran is located in Arabia and not in Egypt, since the Ishmaelites are not Egyptians.

 

Mecca, Bacca and Paran:

Let me paste for you the following Verses from the Bible and the Noble Quran:

"Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee; in whose heart are the ways of them.  Who passing through the valley of Baca make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools.  (From the NIV Bible, Psalms 84:5-6)"

"The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings: In it are signs manifest; (for example) the Station of Abraham; whoever enters it attains security; pilgrimage thereto is a duty men owe to Allah those who can afford the journey; but if any deny faith Allah stands not in need of any of his creatures.  (The Noble Quran, 3:96-97)"

"And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is. Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.  And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink.   And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer.  And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.  (From the NIV Bible, Genesis 21:17-21)"

 

More Verses on Paran:

"Then the Israelites set out from the Desert of Sinai and traveled from place to place until the cloud came to rest in the Desert of Paran.  (From the NIV Bible, Numbers 10:12)"   Here the desert of Paran means the region of Paran, which would be either at or near Mecca.

"After that, the people left Hazeroth and encamped in the Desert of Paran.  (From the NIV Bible, Numbers 12:16)"  Here the desert of Paran means the region of Paran, which would be either at or near Mecca.

"So at the LORD's command Moses sent them out from the Desert of Paran. All of them were leaders of the Israelites.  (From the NIV Bible, Numbers 13:3)"

"These are the words Moses spoke to all Israel in the desert east of the Jordan--that is, in the Arabah--opposite Suph, between Paran and Tophel, Laban, Hazeroth and Dizahab.  (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 1:1)"

 

Kaabah (the cube black building in Mecca) and Mecca:

Atharva Veda X, 2, Mantras 28 and 31
28. Whether it is built high, its walls are in a straight line or not, but God is seen in every corner of it. He who knows the House of God, knows it because God is remembered there.
31. This abode of the angels has eight circuits and nine gates. It is unconquerable, there is eternal life in it and it is resplendent with Divine light.

The Ka'bah is not exactly cubical and its sides are not of the same length.  The Holy Sanctuary (Haram) of which Ka'abah is at the center remains open day and night throughout the year and it is always filled with people praying and supplicating to Allah (the One True God). Muslims face toward it during prayer forming circle in the Haram (Holy House) and the circle extends out in this manner throughout the planet Earth.

The holy sanctuary (Haram) has remained unconquerable. Abraha al-Ashram, the Abbysinian viceroy of Yemen, tried to demolish it in 570 CE with a strong army and hordes of elephants but was prevented from entering the city (Holy precinct). The people of Makkah had decided not to defend the Ka'bah, fled the city and took refuge in nearby hills overlooking Ka'bah. By Allah's Command, the 'Abaabeel' (flying creatures, birds) pelted stones at Abraha's army and decimated it, leaving them like green crops devoured by cattle.

This incident is described in the Surah (chapter) 105 of the Qur'an. The year 570 CE is popularly known by the Arabs as 'The year of the Elephant,' and Prophet Muhammad was born in that year.

 

Paul in the book of Galatians and the most recent Archeological Discoveries suggest that Mount Sinai is in Saudi Arabia and NOT in Egypt's Sinai desert:

Recent archeological discoveries along with Paul's own words in Galatians 4:25 clearly suggest that Mount Sinai is located in Saudi Arabia.  This means that Paran being south of Mount Sinai clearly means that it is the Holy City of Mecca as I showed above:

The Bible clearly says that Paran is south of Sinai in Egypt; "He said: 'The LORD came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran. He came with myriads of holy ones from the south, from his mountain slopes.'  (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 33:2)"

This verse is elaborated on further above.  Now, let us first look at Galatians 4:25, then the archeological evidence:

"Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children.  (From the NIV Bible, Galatians 4:25)"

From http://www.carm.org/questions/desert.htm

Why isn't there any record of millions of Jews wandering in the desert?

 

     There has been a lot of speculation on the route of the Exodus and why the traditional site hasn't yielded any archaeological evidence.  After all, if two million people wander in a desert for forty years, you'd think that at least something would be found to support it.  But, nothing at all has been unearthed in the Sinai Peninsula supporting the biblical account of the Exodus.  Various explanations for this range from the idea that it is naturally difficult to find any archeological evidence in a desert of sand to the explanation that the traditional site is the wrong one.
     First of all, no archaeological find has ever contradicted the Bible.  Archaeology has only confirmed what the Bible says.  As has been the case with so many other things in the Bible, as archaeology progresses, they will most certainly uncover evidence in the future.  The Bible has yet to be proven wrong by archaeology.
     Second, lack of evidence doesn't mean there wasn't an Exodus.   However, this is a slippery slope since having a lack of evidence for an ice cream factory on Jupiter doesn't mean that there is one.  What we need is evidence and it is fair to say that there should be some evidence for the wanderings of two million people for forty years in a desert.
     Third, it may be that the traditional site of Mt. Sinai is incorrect.  Gal. Gal. 4:25 says "Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children." Present theories dealing with Mt. Sinai's location have it in the Sinai Peninsula, yet the Bible says it was in Arabia.  The map to the right shows the traditionally accepted route (in black) and the currently accepted location of Mt. Sinai.  The problem is that there has been absolutely no archaeological evidence unearthed at that site to verify the Exodus.   The route in red shows an alternate path that is consistent with Paul's description in Gal. 4:25.  This would have Mt. Sinai be in Arabia, which is now Saudi Arabia, instead of the traditionally accepted Sinai peninsula.
     In a recent book titled "In search of the Mountain of God," by Bob Cornuke and David Halbrook (Broadman and Holman, 2000), Bob Cornuke (a Christian) recounts his story of going into Saudi Arabia with his friend Larry Williams (a non-Christian commodities trader).  They uncovered evidence of an alternate site where the real Mt. Sinai might be.  Bob Cornuke was a police officer, swat team member, and crime scene investigator in Southern California and is the President of the Bible Archaeology Search and Exploration (BASE) Institute BaseInstitute.org.  He and Mr. Williams have produced a video and book (available on that site) where they claim to have found evidence in Saudi Arabia to support that Mt. Sinai is located within its borders.  Now, I must admit that this has not been verified by any "official" archaeologists, but the video, which I have seen, does raise some interesting possibilities.
     Mr. Cornuke and Williams claim to have simply let the Bible guide them as they attempted to locate the actual route of the Jews of the Exodus.  Through trial and error over several weeks, they followed what they believed was the route as is laid out by the Bible and they found the items described in Exodus 13 - 19 including, springs, a split rock, an altar, an underwater land bridge at the end of the Sinai Peninsula where the people of Israel could have crossed, and much more.  The present location of Mt. Sinai, according to the locals in their account, is known as Jabal Al Laws as is traditionally known by them as the mount of Moses.  The Saudis have the area fenced off with warning signs in Arabic and English telling people not to enter.  If this is so, why would the Saudis not want anyone to know about the place?   It might be because if Mt. Sinai is located in Muslim territory then one of the most holy places of the Jewish and Christian religions it could pose serious political problems.
     I must admit that this is speculative at present and it has not been verified.  But the video was compelling.  Whether or not this is a valid option is yet to be determined and it is supportive of the idea that the traditional location of Exodus route might indeed be incorrect, as Gal. 4:25 seems to suggest.

 

Christian Archeologists prove from the Bible that Mount Sinai is in "Saudi Arabia" today:

From http://www.baseinstitute.org/Sinai_1.html

Is Mount SINAI in the SINAI?

For centuries Bible scholars and religious pilgrims have been seeking the location of the real Mt. Sinai.Today, most people are unaware that not one piece of hard evidence has been produced to verify thatwhat is traditionally designated at “Mount Sinai” in the south central Sinai Peninsula is indeed thefamed mountain of Moses and the Exodus. In fact, the only verifiable reason that the traditional site is designated “Mount Sinai” at all is because a Roman mystic designated it and Helena, mother of Constantine I, anointed it as the true Mount Sinai early in the 4th century AD. (Helena also claimed she discovered the true “holy sepulchre” in Jerusalem and the true cross of Christ.)

Several other proposed sites for the true Mount Sinai have been suggested by biblical scholars, but thus far they have produced no archaeological evidence to support them. If we are ever to discern a correct location for the historical events recorded in the biblical Book of Exodus, it’s important to use the Scriptures as a guide, just as we would use any ancient documents that have proven reliable in the past.

In the New Testament, Paul wrote in Galatians 4:25, “Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia . . .”Although some argue that here the Roman designation of Arabia includes the Sinai Peninsula, Arabia in Paul’s day encompassed a larger region that primarily designated the populated regions of ancient Midian, or modern-day Saudi Arabia. As a “Hebrew of Hebrews,” Paul’s understanding of Arabia would have been one that was consistent with Old Testament passages like 1 Kings 10:15, 2 Chronicles 9:14, Isaiah 21:13, Jeremiah 25:24, and Ezekiel 27:21, in which Arabia is clearly identified with the region east of the Gulf of Aqaba, where “kings” ruled and the “Dedanites” co-dwelt with other nomadic peoples.

Even more telling, Exodus 3:1 plainly identifies Mount Horeb (Sinai) as being in Midian: “Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God.” Here, there are two important issues. First, the region of “Midian” referred to here is undeniably the same as present-day Saudi Arabia. Second, at the traditional site of Mt. Sinai on the Sinai Peninsula, there is nothing that would cause it to be geographically identified with the “back” of a desert, in distinction from its surroundings. By contrast, the site proposed by BASE Institute is, indeed, on the far side or margin of a vast desert in ancient Midian.

However, can ancient Midian be identified with the Sinai Peninsula, which in the time of Moses, was considered a part of Egypt (although designated as the “wilderness” of Egypt)? It is apparent from Exodus 2:15 that the two were separate entities. After killing an Egyptian, Moses fled Egypt for safer ground: “When Pharaoh heard of this, he tried to kill Moses, but Moses fled from Pharaoh and went to live in Midian.” Egypt and its holdings would not have been safe for Moses under any circumstances. He would not have fled to the Sinai Peninsula, where archaeology shows that Pharaoh had multiple mining interests and military outposts. The Bible is clear that Moses went out of Egypt, to the land of Midian east of the gulf of Aqaba.

The Bible makes several references to Moses returning to Egypt from Midian, including Exodus 4:19 where we read, “Now the Lord had said to Moses in Midian, ‘Go back to Egypt, for all the men who wanted to kill you are dead.” All passages associated with Moses’ stay in Midian point toward present-day Saudi Arabia as the area to which Moses fled, subsequently met God at the burning bush, and then returned with the children of Israel.

Because so many Bible references as well as archaeological evidence (or the lack of it) pointed away from traditional Mount Sinai and toward Saudi Arabia as the location of the historical mountain of Moses, a site inspection was necessary to determine if other evidence could be found to support this theory. Saudi Arabia’s closed borders made it impossible for a team of scholars and archaeologists to enter the country. As a result, Larry Williams and I surreptitiously slipped into the country, traced what appears to be the Exodus route, and climbed the mountain which many scholars now consider to be the true Mount Sinai.

What follows is a condensed account of our adventures, our findings, and how these relate directly to the Bible.

 

From http://www.baseinstitute.org/Sinai_2.html

Mt. Sinai - the Evidence

RED SEA CROSSING SITE In 1 Kings 9:26, the Bible tells us, “King Solomon also built ships at Ezion Geber, which is near Elath in Edom, on the shore of the Red Sea.” This verse provides us with some compelling clues. First, Solomon had his port at Elath (modern Eilat) on the shores of the northern tip of the Gulf of Aqaba (which forms the eastern “finger” of the Red Sea proper). The NIV Study Bible references this verse as follows: “Red Sea. The Hebrew for this term, normally read as Yam Suph (‘sea of reeds’), refers to the body of water through which the Israelites passed at the time of the Exodus. It can also be read, however, as Yam Soph (‘sea of land’s end’), a more likely reading when referring to the Red Sea, and especially . . . to its eastern arm, the Gulf of Aqaba.”

This could well mean that the “sea of land’s end,” at the tip of the Sinai Peninsula, was the site of the Israelites’ crossing. At the very least, the use of the same Hebrew term both for the place where the Israelites crossed and for the Gulf of Aqaba at Elath shows that the body of water in question is not an isolated lake, but includes the bulk of what we know as the Red Sea.

BITTER LAKES: Many scholars suggest that the actual crossing of the “sea of reeds” was in the Bitter Lakes region, north of the Gulf of Suez, where some observers have claimed that wind can cause the lake level to fluctuate several feet. However, this simply is not consistent with numerous other Biblical references, including the account of an entire, Egypt-engulfing locust swarm being blown into Yam Suph (Exodus 10:19), Solomon sailing a fleet of ships on Yam Suph (1 Kings 9:26), and the description of the way in which Pharaoh’s soldiers died at Yam Suph: “But You blew with your breath, and the sea covered them. They sank like lead in the mighty waters” (Exodus 15:10). The Bitter Lakes region is a marsh with no mighty waters. At the tip of the Sinai Peninsula, however, at the entrance of the Gulf of Aqaba, the “mighty waters” of the Red Sea can reach incredible fury and awesome depths.

TRADITIONAL MOUNT SINAI: Having visited the traditional Mount Sinai in the southern Sinai Peninsula, I have seen first hand that the only place the Israelites could possibly have camped was a small, flat valley area adjacent to the mountain, allowing for only about one square yard per person (assuming that roughly 2 million people were involved in the Exodus). And despite extensive archeological investigation throughout the region, nothing has ever been found that can conclusively be tied to the Exodus of the Hebrews from Egypt - or can even argue for a large population of people ever occupying the area.

UNDERWATER LAND BRIDGE: Following a theory that the route of the Exodus actually took the Hebrews past (not through) the bitter Lakes and then southward along the west coast of the Sinai Peninsula, we traveled to the tip of the Sinai and explored the underwater topography (bathymetry) of the Strait of Tiran, where the Gulf of Aqaba is narrowest between the Sinai Peninsula and Saudi Arabia. There we found that an underwater land bridge exists that today is so problematic for shipping that two separate routes or “lanes” are designated for northbound and southbound ships to pass through. Further correlation of the Bible’s account of the route of the Exodus causes us to realize that this unusual submarine formation may well have been trod by the Hebrews themselves.

BITTER SPRINGS OF MARAH: Exploring the further possibility that the Israelites passed through the waters of the Red Sea at the Strait of Tiran, we picked up our search for landmarks on the Saudi Arabia side of the Gulf of Aqaba. There we started at the coastline on the eastern side of the Strait of Tiran and traveled the most natural route approximately 30 kilometers inland to a group of springs, where the water in some of the springs was terribly bitter. Exodus 15:22-23 tells us, “So Moses brought Israel from the Red Sea; then they went out into the wilderness of Shur. And they went three days in the wilderness and found no water. Now when they came to Marah, they could not drink the waters of Marah, for they were bitter.”

THE 70 PALMS AND 12 SPRINGS OF ELIM: As we traveled generally toward Jabal al Lawz (the Saudi Arabian mountain that is held by generations of Bedouins to be the mountain of Moses), we next encountered a group of clear water springs, with a grove of palm trees adjacent to them. We marveled at the description in Exodus 15:27: “Then they came to Elim, where there were twelve wells of water and seventy palm trees; so they camped there by the waters.”

CAVES OF MOSES: While at the springs, we discovered that some nearby caves were being excavated by Saudi archaeologists. A worker at the site said that writings found in the caves indicated that the prophet Musa (Moses) had come through this area with his nation of Hebrews.

CHARRED PEAK AND MELTED ROCK: Continuing to Jabal al Lawz, and after a great deal of maneuvering to gain access to the mountain, we found the top of the mountain to be thoroughly blackened, as if the rocks had been severely scorched from without. When we broke open the rocks, we found that they were actually granite rocks with a blackened “rind” and an untouched core of pure granite inside. We had already read in Exodus 19:18, “Now Mount Sinai was completely in smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire . . . .”

BOUNDARY MARKERS: As we explored further around the base of the mountain, we discovered large piles of rocks arranged in a semicircle around the front of the mountain, spaced about every 400 yards. Measuring about five feet high and 20 feet across, these piles could be the boundary markers set up by Moses, as he had been instructed by God: “. . . You warned us saying, ‘set bounds around the mountain and consecrate it’” (Exodus 19:23).

GOLDEN CALF ALTAR: In a flat area at the base of the mountain we also discovered that large boulders had been placed together, creating an altar-like formation 30 feet tall and 30 feet across - quite possibly the altar where the golden calf was set up and worshiped by God’s disobedient people. On the rocks were etched ancient drawings of a bull god, as described in Exodus 32:4, where Aaron “. . . received the gold from the hand, and he fashioned it with an engraving tool, and made a molded calf.”

More Evidence follows on the next page including information on the golden calf, the split rock at Horeb, the 12 pillars, Moses' altar and Elijah's cave.

 

From http://www.baseinstitute.org/Sinai_3.html

Mt. Sinai - More Evidence

GOLDEN CALF ALTAR: In a flat area at the base of the mountain we also discovered that large boulders had been placed together, creating an altar-like formation 30 feet tall and 30 feet across - quite possibly the altar where the golden calf was set up and worshiped by God’s disobedient people. On the rocks were etched ancient drawings of a bull god, as described in Exodus 32:4, where Aaron “. . . received the gold from the hand, and he fashioned it with an engraving tool, and made a molded calf.”

MOSES' ALTAR and the 12 PILLARS: At the foot of the mountain we found a V-shaped altar, with each arm approximately 60 feet long and 20 feet wide. Next to it were several toppled pillars in sections measuring about 22 inches in diameter and 20 inches in length. Exodus 24:4 records that Moses “. . . built an altar at the foot of the mountain, and twelve pillars according to the twelve tribes of Israel.”

SPLIT ROCK AT HOREB: (Full credit for verification and documentation of the split rock at Horeb goes to Jim and Penny Caldwell, who conducted their research while living in Saudi Arabia.) One of the most startling discoveries at Jabal al Lawz was a massive, prominent, split rock on the west side of Jabal al Lawz, which showed evidence of gushing water from within - jagged rocks that had been smoothed off by an abundant flow of water. Exodus 17:6 records God’s instructions to Moses when the Israelites were dying of thirst in the wilderness: “Behold, I will stand before you there on the rock in Horeb; and you shall strike the rock, and water will come out of it, that the people may drink.”

CAVE OF ELIJAH: High on the mountain was a cave by which Elijah may have stood to hear God’s voice, as described in 1 Kings 19:18b, 13b: “. . . and he went . . . as far as Horeb, the mountain of God . . . . and he went out and stood in the entrance of the cave . . . .”

This expedition yielded the first of a wealth of compelling new evidence, to suggest that the Strait of Tiran on the Gulf of Aqaba was the crossing point for the route of the Exodus, and that Jabal al Lawz in Saudi Arabia is the true Mount Sinai.

The real significance in all this is that the Bible again has apparently been shown to be true, reliable, and accurate, down to the smallest historical detail. Critics who claim that the Bible does not coincide with known history and geography are again shown to be wrong once the physical evidence begins to surface. The account in the Bible is true, and the implications are incredible.

God descended on Mount Sinai in flames like a furnace. He spoke to Moses and gave him the Ten Commandments as the laws for the life of Israel. He communicated His love and mercy through the laws for sacrifice and atonement. And though we are unworthy, He gave us the opportunity to enter into a personal, caring relationship with the Eternal Father.

The exploits of the BASE Institute team may sound like a treasure hunt to others, but a more important adventure awaits those who would seek out the treasures of the Word of God. The Bible reveals His plan for reconciliation - and the most important discovery any of us can ever make is how to begin a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. This is the best adventure.

 

Muhammad in the Bible, (Isaiah 60), Pilgrimage to Mecca..!

Muhammad in the Bible, (Isaiah 60), Pilgrimage to Mecca..!

 

References/Links:

http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-say/ch6.10.html   
http://users.erols.com/zenithco/comparekjv.html



Prominent Saudi Prince follows Moses Exodus Saga.

Our thesis that Moses’ journey started in Yemen and followed the tectonic line of volcanoes to the Holiest City of Islam, MAKKAH seems to have caused somewhat of a stir in the Kingdom and left the Israelis cold. 

In a private note, a prominent member of the Saudi Royal family has asked to be kept in touch with further developments not only regarding the Exodus but also our thesis that the Temples of Jerusalem were never built on the Temple Mount but rather in their more logical position some 600 ft. further south over the City’s only natural supply of water, The Gihon Spring in the City of Jerusalem.

I will keep you posted on the developments in the Muslim and Arab world. The material has already been translated and posted on the internet in Urdu and Arabic. 

Islam has claimed that the coming of Mohammed was foretold in the Bible in the following verse:

"And this is the blessing wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death and he said, 'The Lord came from Sinai and dawned from Mount Seir upon them; he shone forth from Mount Paran he came from ten thousands of holy ones: with flaming fire at his right hand. Yea, he loved His people; all those consecrated to him were in his hand: so they followed in thy feet, receiving direction from thee, when Moses commanded us a law, as a possession for the congregation of Jacob. Thus the Lord became King in Jeshurun when the heads of the people were gathered, all the tribes of Israel together." (Deuteronomy 33:1-5).

The controversy naturally revolves around any independent evidence that Paran was in the vicinity of Makkah.

We have already cited a medieval geographer on that score but one cannot be sure whether the identification was real or an attempt to strengthen the thesis that Mohammed was mentioned in the Bible. We would expect therefore that Muslims would favor that identification. In fact it is now taken for granted by the Muslim world. Perhaps that is the reason why the Saudis have expressed more interest in the thesis than the Israelis.  However it does cause Islam a problem which they have preferred not to address over the centuries. For, if  they accept Paran as Makkah, then they MUST at the same time accept that the Exodus took place in Saudi Arabia .

What is puzzling is that we cannot find any Islamic commentator who has taken the next and only logical next step. IF Mekkah is Paran then the Exodus MUST have taken place in Arabia . We have seen no Islamic commentator make that obvious conclusion.

What is much more startling is that Yemeni Jewish sages also identified Paran with Mekkah, surely against their interests and biases. The argument has been posited that Yemeni Jews for their own protection would not want to rock the boat and that as the rise of Islam was undoubtedly a major world event in history and they believe that all such events are predicted in the Torah, they would have no problem is accepting the Muslim interpretation.

I will leave the reader to decide whether that is sufficient justification for Jewish sages to have accepted the identification that Paran is Makkah. 

Ever,
Mike
September 2002
California


This is one of many scholars with PhD's that have written and proven from archeological evidence that Paran and the Biblical prophecy about the light that will be coming is foretelling of Muhammad the messenger of ALLAH.

[Peter]

When are you going to put a little effort into learning how the quote function operates? Are you happy with the way your posts turn out? If you don't understand something at this link just ask. http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=39.0

Also the search function works very well in this forum. Before initiating a subject please to a key word search there.

Blaspheming God's Word by copy and pasting the stupidity of others, won't magically create a 2900 year history for Mohammed's phony 7th century repackaged 6th century paganism, when you now already understand that no pre-Mohammed historical record could possibly exist.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1900.msg7951#msg7951

Even the alternate location of Mt. Sinai is still 1,000 kilometers from Mecca, and the times of Ishmael were about 900 years before the first caravan route was established along the Red Sea in Arabia.
Discuss this Paran foolishness on its own thread at the link, after reading the posts of the others that tried the same nonsense.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1483.0

Perhaps next you will be trying to present the Baca is Mecca dung load.
You are squandering your time chasing foolish nonsense, while you reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
The hour is late. You could die today, my friend.

[Mujaheed]

When are you going to put a little effort into learning how the quote function operates? Are you happy with the way your posts turn out? If you don't understand something at this link just ask. http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=39.0

Also the search function works very well in this forum. Before initiating a subject please to a key word search there.

Blaspheming God's Word by copy and pasting the stupidity of others, won't magically create a 2900 year history for Mohammed's phony 7th century repackaged 6th century paganism, when you now already understand that no pre-Mohammed historical record could possibly exist.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1900.msg7951#msg7951

Even the alternate location of Mt. Sinai is still 1,000 kilometers from Mecca, and the times of Ishmael were about 900 years before the first caravan route was established along the Red Sea in Arabia.
Discuss this Paran foolishness on its own thread at the link, after reading the posts of the others that tried the same nonsense.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1483.0

Perhaps next you will be trying to present the Baca is Mecca dung load.
You are squandering your time chasing foolish nonsense, while you reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
The hour is late. You could die today, my friend.

AGAIN I ASK YOU NOT TELL LIES TO THIS FORUM
AGAIN YOU PERSIST WITH YOU IGNORANT APPROACH
THERe IS NO GOSPEL ACCORDING TO JESUS!

WHY WOULD YOU ACCEPT ONE LONE UNSUBSTANTIATED SCHOLARS OPINION AND NOT MULTIPLE SCHOLARS THAT CONCUR? YOUR BIASE IS TOO DEEP ROOTED TO HAVE A MEANINGFUL CONVERSATION WITH YOU>

THIS ENTIRE WEBSITE IS FILLED WITH OPINION CONJECTURE< ASSUMPTIONS AND MISGUIDANCE
THERE IS NO STORY THAT MAKES SENSE AND IF YOU DO PRESENT SAMSON A VALID BIBLICAL STORY ONE IS DISMISSED

WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM< YOU NEED PROFESSIONAL HELP< YOUR EGO AND DISBELIEF (SATAN) HAS SUCH A STRONG GRIUP ON YOU THAT YOU ARE MADE DEAF DUMB AND BLIND TO THE TRUTH>

YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE WASTING TIME HERE< REPENT IN THE NAME OF YOUR CREATOR AND SUSTAINER< REPENT AND RETURN TO THE COMMAND OF YOUR LORD GOD IS ONE (NO SON AND DEFINITELY NOT A GHOST OR SPIRIT THAT IS SATAN)

[Peter]

My friend, it is you that has failed to present a pre-Mohammed historical record of Mecca. Your next adventure of pretending that the Old Testament is about Mecca won't magically create a 2900 year historical record of Mecca either. Nor will hurling unfounded accusations.

You have been shown, that those that you yourself correctly believe to have been 6th century illiterate pagan ignoramuses before Mohammed, couldn't possibly have penned, nor preserved, a historical record of Mecca. Let alone a 2900 year steady stream of ignoramuses before them, penning and preserving a history of Mecca (that the actual record suggests wasn't even settled until the 4th century AD). Nor does any such record exist.

Therefore even you understand, that all of the Islamic "tradition" that you have been indoctrinated to believe about Mecca, Abraham, Hagar and Ishmael is all created 7th and 8th century fictional poppycock.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1176.0

As much as you repeatedly try to make it about Dr. Amari, even you can see the ridiculous notion of believing there is a historical record of Mecca, that preceded Mohammed. All Dr. Amari did is point out, that this fact is also confirmed through the actual historical and archaeological records of Arabia.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=56.0
I'm sorry you don't like it my friend, but surely by now even you can see, that is simply the way it is.

Mecca was, is, and will always remain, over 1200 kilometers away from THE Holy Land.

[Mujaheed]

My friend, it is you that has failed to present a pre-Mohammed historical record of Mecca. Your next adventure of pretending that the Old Testament is about Mecca won't magically create a 2900 year historical record of Mecca either. Nor will hurling unfounded accusations.

You have been shown, that those that you yourself correctly believe to have been 6th century illiterate pagan ignoramuses before Mohammed, couldn't possibly have penned, nor preserved, a historical record of Mecca. Let alone a 2900 year steady stream of ignoramuses before them, penning and preserving a history of Mecca (that the actual record suggests wasn't even settled until the 4th century AD). Nor does any such record exist.

Therefore even you understand, that all of the Islamic "tradition" that you have been indoctrinated to believe about Mecca, Abraham, Hagar and Ishmael is all created 7th and 8th century fictional poppycock.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1176.0

As much as you repeatedly try to make it about Dr. Amari, even you can see the ridiculous notion of believing there is a historical record of Mecca, that preceded Mohammed. All Dr. Amari did is point out, that this fact is also confirmed through the actual historical and archaeological records of Arabia.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=56.0
I'm sorry you don't like it my friend, but surely by now even you can see, that is simply the way it is.

Mecca was, is, and will always remain, over 1200 kilometers away from THE Holy Land.

My dear Peter, no amount of truth will change your hard headed misguided interpretations and opinions, your heart has hardened and this is evident from all the posts I have read, indicate, you quote the Bible but you do not believe the verse, you talk about Jesus but you seem to have no inclination as to what Jesus expects from you, you have absolutely no motivation to speak the truth.

1. No opinion but yours matter (Arrogant Ignoramus)
2. Quoting verse of verse indicates knowing of the lines but not understanding its meaning or purpose
3. Slander and hate speech towards someone that introduce over 2 billion people to Jesus and all the Prophets
4. Not discussing a topic and diverting attention from the Bible (samson story was never explored You rather discuss Islam than your Own Bible)
5. presenting the work of Rafat Amari is meaningless as he has not excavated Makkah so his "evidence" is circumstantial. Any self respecting archeologist would ask if you inspected the actual site. He never did but came to wild conclusions.
6. You love opinion (scribes and Pharisees) Your own, that of Pagan writers, the Greeks (pagans) Romans(pagans) and Ellis Skollfield (highly opinionated self styled Sholar that drew his own conclusions from his own analyses like many before him (some even started new cults)
7. You do not accept the all of the New or old testaments, YOU ARE VERY SELECTIVE OF THE VERSES YOU PREFER,
(heres some home work, find all the verses where Jesu says he is not God but a man and find all the verses that implies he is, there are none that actually directly say he is, and compare the two lists and then give us your conclusion.
8. find the passages that say a comforter and counselor will come with 100 thousand saints and look into archeology and history as to who the bible refers to.
9. Prophecy of Like unto Moses (Moses was obviously not born of a virgin so else could it be?)
10. Read the Quran' from cover to cover like I did with the Bible and then start to engage in Islam-Christian dialogue.

[Peter]

My friend, it is you that has failed to present a pre-Mohammed historical record of Mecca. Your next adventure of pretending that the Old Testament is about Mecca won't magically create a 2900 year historical record of Mecca either. Nor will hurling unfounded accusations.

You have been shown, that those that you yourself correctly believe to have been 6th century illiterate pagan ignoramuses before Mohammed, couldn't possibly have penned, nor preserved, a historical record of Mecca. Let alone a 2900 year steady stream of ignoramuses before them, penning and preserving a history of Mecca (that the actual record suggests wasn't even settled until the 4th century AD). Nor does any such record exist.

Therefore even you understand, that all of the Islamic "tradition" that you have been indoctrinated to believe about Mecca, Abraham, Hagar and Ishmael is all created 7th and 8th century fictional poppycock.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1176.0

As much as you repeatedly try to make it about Dr. Amari, even you can see the ridiculous notion of believing there is a historical record of Mecca, that preceded Mohammed. All Dr. Amari did is point out, that this fact is also confirmed through the actual historical and archaeological records of Arabia.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=56.0
I'm sorry you don't like it my friend, but surely by now even you can see, that is simply the way it is.

Mecca was, is, and will always remain, over 1200 kilometers away from THE Holy Land.

My dear Peter, no amount of truth will change your hard headed misguided interpretations and opinions, your heart has hardened and this is evident from all the posts I have read, indicate, you quote the Bible but you do not believe the verse, you talk about Jesus but you seem to have no inclination as to what Jesus expects from you, you have absolutely no motivation to speak the truth.

1. No opinion but yours matter (Arrogant Ignoramus)

Following links offered for Muslim read-only participants of the forum that are seeking truth. Not so much for hopelessly indoctrinated suicide murderers. http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1899.msg7992#msg7992

2. Quoting verse of verse indicates knowing of the lines but not understanding its meaning or purpose

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/#power_of_the_sword
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=731.0

3. Slander and hate speech towards someone that introduce over 2 billion people to Jesus and all the Prophets

http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=336.0

4. Not discussing a topic and diverting attention from the Bible (samson story was never explored You rather discuss Islam than your Own Bible)

http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1899.msg7872#msg7872
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1899.msg7884#msg7884
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1899.msg7898#msg7898
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1899.msg7899#msg7899
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1899.msg7910#msg7910
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1899.msg7911#msg7911
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1899.msg7914#msg7914
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1899.msg7927#msg7927
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1899.msg7995#msg7995

5. presenting the work of Rafat Amari is meaningless as he has not excavated Makkah so his "evidence" is circumstantial. Any self respecting archeologist would ask if you inspected the actual site. He never did but came to wild conclusions.

Attacking one messenger won't magically create a pre-4th century history or archaeology of Mecca from thin air.
Why not Google - ancient towns in Saudi Arabia - or - history and archaeology of Mecca -?
http://www.historyofmecca.com/

6. You love opinion (scribes and Pharisees) Your own, that of Pagan writers, the Greeks (pagans) Romans(pagans) and Ellis Skollfield (highly opinionated self styled Sholar that drew his own conclusions from his own analyses like many before him (some even started new cults)

http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=14.0

7. You do not accept the all of the New or old testaments, YOU ARE VERY SELECTIVE OF THE VERSES YOU PREFER,

http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1175.0

(heres some home work, find all the verses where Jesu says he is not God but a man and find all the verses that implies he is, there are none that actually directly say he is, and compare the two lists and then give us your conclusion.

http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=40.0

8. find the passages that say a comforter

http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=224.0
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=952.0

and counselor

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Isa&c=9&t=KJV#6
http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=Counsellor&t=KJV&sf=5

will come with 100 thousand saints and look into archeology and history as to who the bible refers to.

http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1656.0

9. Prophecy of Like unto Moses (Moses was obviously not born of a virgin so else could it be?)

http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=219.0

10. Read the Quran' from cover to cover like I did with the Bible and then start to engage in Islam-Christian dialogue.

http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=877.msg8000#msg8000

Further going in circles will be moved to "Extensions of Chats" here http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1976.0

[Peter]

One religion that actively discards the laws is Christianity, The Holy SPIRIT will guide you. Well you need to make your spirit holy before it guides you to holiness. These videos lack inspiration, they are sad stories of obviously GOD_less individuals that came from nothing and are now reading the Bible (well at least it is the first step). I cant believe I wasted my time watching them.

For folks wondering about our somewhat direct treatment of Mujaheed in this forum, the original post of this thread was his second post in the forum. He wore his heart on his sleeve without even an attempt at a facade of civility.
The OP was his answer to "The Love of the One True God as Discovered by Muslims", posting largely (typically) unrelated material to the thread, multiple unrelated subjects as the typical MO, and so I split it off and made it's own thread.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1259.0

And that's how he characterizes his former brethren, that have come to know the love of the one true God through the Gospel of Jesus Christ, even as he himself chooses to understand God through the child-like mind of a 7th century southwest Arabian, desert dwelling, illiterate.

Again, further going in circles by Mujaheed will be moved to "Extensions of Chats" here http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1976.0
Others are welcome to ADD something to the thread, or point out something we didn't address from Mujaheed's posts, if you would like to have answered for you.

[Peter]

Followers of Muhammad
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2656.0