Persecution in Egypt

[Peter]

Persecution of exMuslims in Egypt.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niVL_LQEpco

http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2347.msg10416#msg10416

[PeteWaldo]

http://www.examiner.com/article/barbaric-acts-of-rage-egyptian-christians-hacked-to-death-by-muslim-brotherhood

[ExMilitary]

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/patrick-goodenough/egyptian-islamists-murder-young-christian-after-dragging-her-car

Egyptian Islamists Murder Young Christian, After Dragging Her From Car

(CNSNews.com) – Eyewitnesses have given a harrowing account of the murder in Cairo of a young Coptic Christian woman, hauled out of her car and beaten and stabbed to death by a Muslim mob, apparently targeted because of a cross hanging from her rear-view mirror.

The incident occurred in the Cairo suburb of Ain Shams after mosque prayer services on Friday, when police clashed with Muslim Brotherhood supporters angered by army chief Abdel Fattah al-Sisi’s decision to run for president.

An eyewitness appearing on “90 minutes,” a program on the al-Mehwar satellite network, said 25-year-old Mary Sameh George was attacked in her car near a church, where she planned to deliver medicine to an ill and elderly woman.

Protestors climbed onto her car, collapsing the roof, then hauled her from the vehicle, beating and mauling her – to the extent, he said, that portions of her scalp were torn off. She was stabbed multiple times, her throat was slit and when she was dead, the mob torched her car.

One Coptic outlet said that according to the health ministry, the young woman had been stabbed at least a dozen times.

The death of Mary Sameh George received little coverage in Egyptian newspapers.

The state-owned Al Ahram daily, in a report on five people reported killed in various parts of Cairo on Friday among them a journalist who was shot dead, included one sentence saying, “A Coptic woman, Mary George, was reportedly stabbed to death by pro-Morsi supporters in the same area.”

In a report on the death of the journalist, Daily News Egypt mentioned in passing that “Another woman, Coptic Christian Mary Sameh George, was stabbed to death in Ain Shams.”

A wire service report quoted an Interior Ministry spokesman as saying protesters had “stabbed a Christian woman to death,” and blaming the Muslim Brotherhood for Friday’s deaths.

The Australian Coptic Movement Association condemned what it called the “callous, vicious and unprovoked” killing.

“Mary George was targeted for her faith in what is becoming an increasingly intolerable and inhospitable region for Christians; given that Ain Shams is a known stronghold for the Muslim Brotherhood,” it said, appealing to the authorities to ensure that the perpetrators were brought to justice.

“The Egyptian government must send a clear message that this behavior will not be tolerated and that the culprits will be held to account under the full force of the law,” the organization said.

It also urged Western governments “to pay due attention to the extreme and violent agenda of the Muslim Brotherhood.”

A screenshot from Egyptian TV shows Coptic Christians reacting to the violent death of Mary Sameh George. (Image: Vetogate.com)

Egypt’s Copts, comprising less than 10 percent of the population, have faced discrimination and varying levels of persecution since long before the Mubarak was overthrown in 2011. But the subsequent rise to power of Mohammed Morsi’s Muslim Brotherhood was of particular alarm to the vulnerable minority, and many celebrated when the military ousted Morsi last July.

The Coptic community was seen to be supportive of the military takeover, and some Morsi supporters vented their anger on Christians, with many churches coming under Islamist attack in an apparently coordinated campaign.

The military-backed interim government has since cracked down on the Muslim Brotherhood, declaring it a terrorist group, putting its leaders on trial, and sentencing hundreds of Morsi supporters to death.

When Sisi, the general was oversaw Morsi’s removal, confirmed last week what many had long suspected – that he plans to run for the presidency in elections scheduled for May, the pro-Morsi alliance known as “National Coalition for Supporting Legitimacy” called for street protests after Friday prayers.

“Let the million-man demonstration on Friday be great and remarkable,” the group said in an announcement on its Facebook page. “Let all those who are angry gather for a new phase which this nation needs.”

In the light of the protests against Sisi’s announcement the U.S. Embassy in Cairo advised American citizens to “closely monitor events and scrutinize their movements closely through the week ending April 6.”

They were warned to pay special attention to places where crowds gather, universities, and areas where protests are occurring, “as firearms have been used by and against protestors.”

“Recent incidents continue to demonstrate that police and military personnel and facilities remain a target, thereby suggesting risk to U.S. citizens may be elevated at checkpoints and in areas where police and military congregate.”

[Ian Liddle]

Revelation 11:7-14 told us what to expect in Egypt.  Verse 7 tells us that near the End of the Age the "beast" (Islamic jihadis) will make war against the two witnesses (Jews and the Gentile Church).  Verse 8 specifically mentions Egypt as one of the locations.  Verse 8 is usually mis-translated, since the Greek word ptoma (meaning dead body, corpse, carcase or ruins) is in the singular.  Verse 8 would be better translated as "And their [i.e. the Church's] ruins will lie in the street ...".  The BBC reported that over one hundred Christian churches and other Christian buildings were attacked and burned in Egypt last summer (2013).  Together with many attacks on Christians and Christian churches in other countries recently (e.g. Nigeria), it seems that the upsurge in attacks over the last two years is in fulfilment of John's prophecy in Revelation 11.  When did it all begin?  Was there a signal for attacks on churches to commence?  Yes, I believe so.  On March 12th 2012, the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia stated that there should be no churches in Arabia.  The Grand Mufti is the most senior Sunni Muslim cleric in the Arabian peninsula, with the power to issue a fatwa.  He is respected by many Muslims far beyond Arabia.  When will the war against Christians and churches end?  Revelation 11:11-12 says that the three-and-a-half years [since "days" = years] will end with the Rapture.  Now you can do the sums and work out when I believe that the Rapture will take place    [at the feast of Yom Teruah during the next Shemittah year, as highlighted by the 2014-15 tetrad of blood moons on Jewish feast days].

[PeteWaldo]

Revelation 11:7-14 told us what to expect in Egypt.  Verse 7 tells us that near the End of the Age the "beast" (Islamic jihadis) .........

Hi Ian. I think a more accurate description, and one that will help those so sorely deceived, would be "Muslim" or "followers of Muhammad" (rather than "jihadis" wich offers Muslims that are ignorant to Islam the tired old excuse that the violent Muslims are somehow not sanctioned by the Quran and Hadith), since all able men are commanded to engage in the imperialistic conquest of Islamic Jihad. The only "radicals" are western "hypocrites" that pretend, or have been fooled into believing, that Islam is somehow supposed to be a religion of peace - at least before it finishes conquering the world. But then, of course, you still have the Sunni and Shiite mutual murder (though mostly Sunnis murdering Shiites).

http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm#muslim_hypocrites
"Summarized Sahih Al-Bukhari" - Maktba Dar-us-Salam's page 580
Chapter 2. The best among the people is that believer who strives his utmost in Allah's Cause with both his life and property.
footnotes:
[1] "Al-Jihad (the holy fighting) in Allah's Cause (with full force of number and weaponry) is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars (on which it stands). By Jihad Islam is established, Allah's Word is made superior, [His Word being La ilaha ill-Allah (which means: none has the right to be worshipped but Allah)] and His Religion (Islam) is propagated. By abandoning Jihad (may Allah protect us from that) Islam is destroyed and the Muslims fall into an inferior position; there honour is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim, and he who tries to escape from this duty, or does not in his innermost heart wish to fulfill this duty, dies with one of the qualities of a hypocrite.
[2] Of course, nobody can offer Salat (prayer) and observe Saum (fast) incessantly, and since the Muslim fighter is rewarded as if he was doing such good impossible deeds, no possible deed equals Jihad in reward.

........ will make war against the two witnesses (Jews and the Gentile Church).  Verse 8 specifically mentions Egypt as one of the locations.  Verse 8 is usually mis-translated, since the Greek word ptoma (meaning dead body, corpse, carcase or ruins) is in the singular.  Verse 8 would be better translated as "And their [i.e. the Church's] ruins will lie in the street ...".  The BBC reported that over one hundred Christian churches and other Christian buildings were attacked and burned in Egypt last summer (2013).  Together with many attacks on Christians and Christian churches in other countries recently (e.g. Nigeria), it seems that the upsurge in attacks over the last two years is in fulfilment of John's prophecy in Revelation 11.  When did it all begin?  Was there a signal for attacks on churches to commence?  Yes, I believe so.  On March 12th 2012, the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia stated that there should be no churches in Arabia.

I believe that Mufti was only restating old policy regarding a Muslim-only Arabia.

Here's a more recent exchange on the subject in which churches burning in Egypt was discussed as possible fulfillment:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1336.msg14919#msg14919

The Grand Mufti is the most senior Sunni Muslim cleric in the Arabian peninsula, with the power to issue a fatwa.  He is respected by many Muslims far beyond Arabia.  When will the war against Christians and churches end?  Revelation 11:11-12 says that the three-and-a-half years [since "days" = years] will end with the Rapture. Now you can do the sums and work out when I believe that the Rapture will take place 

By "rapture" are you referring to the gathering at the elect, at the time of final judgment, at the last trump? Sticking with the scriptural term for it helps distinguish our discussion from the futurist's "pre-trib" "rapture".
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/great_tribulation.htm#pre_trib_rapture
http://www.christianeschatology.com/pre_trib_rapture_left_behind.htm

[at the feast of Yom Teruah during the next Shemittah year, as highlighted by the 2014-15 .....

Luk 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming.....

..... tetrad of blood moons on Jewish feast days].

We try to stick with fulfilled prophecy, rather than using it as if it were intended to allow us to predict the future (though we do have a separate forum section dedicated to such speculation):

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/traditional_framework.htm#fulfilled_prophecy
Isaac Newton: "The folly of interpreters has been to foretell times and things by this prophecy [Revelation], as if God designed to make them prophets. By this rashness they have not only exposed themselves, but brought the prophecy also into contempt. The design of God was much otherwise. He gave this and the prophecies of the Old Testament, not to gratify men's curiosities by enabling them to foreknow things, but that after they were fulfilled they might be interpreted by the event, and his own providence, not the interpreters', be then manifested thereby to the world. For the event of things predicted many ages before will then be a convincing argument that the world is governed by Providence."

[Ian Liddle]

Thank you, Pete, for your helpful words on why "Muslims" or "Followers of Muhammad" would be better terms to use than "jihadis".

With reference to the Grand Mufti's pronouncement that "there should be no churches in Arabia", you are quite correct that this most senior Muslim cleric was restating the recorded words (in Hadith) of Muhammad on his deathbed.  However, my point was that many Muslims do appear to have taken this reminder from the Grand Mufti as some kind of "prompt" to renew their attacks on churches (and on Christians in general) with increased vigour and zeal.  Being unable to find any other obvious "signal" for the greatly increased incidences of church-burning in 2012 and 2013, I personally believe that the Grand Mufti's words marked the beginning of the final three-and-a-half years that lead up to the Rapture.

So next, with reference to Revelation 11:11-12, you asked what I meant by "The Rapture".  The title derives from the Latin translation of "caught up".  1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 states: "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout [Hebrew: teruah], with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.  And the dead in Christ will rise first [e.g. those mentioned in Revelation 11:11].  Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air [Note that Jesus does not fully descend to the earth until Yom Kippur].  And thus we shall always be with the Lord."  The Latin for "caught up" is rapiemur, hence the expression "Rapture".
I am assuming that you are familiar with Leviticus 23 as God's outline timetable of key dates in His great plan of salvation.  This chapter is often entitled "The Feasts of the Lord", although the Hebrew word moadim more properly means "appointments" or "fixed times" rather than "feasts".  The word is also translated as "seasons" in Genesis 1:14, but "fixed times" may also be more appropriate here.  The four spring feasts in Leviticus 23 were established as dress rehearsals (Hebrew miqra, which is often translated as "convocations") for the four key dates in the first coming of Messiah.  At Passover, the Lamb of God was sacrificially killed.  At Unleavened Bread, He was in the grave.  At Firstfruits (Easter Sunday to us) "Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep" (1 Corinthians 15:20).  At Shavuot (Pentecost), when the Jews celebrate receiving the Torah, the disciples received the living Torah in the form of the Holy Spirit.  That leaves the three autumn (or fall) feasts, which are the three key dates in the second coming of Messiah.  Since Jesus said that He had come to fulfil the Torah and not to change it, we can be assured that He will fulfil the three autumn feasts during the appointed year.  Yom Teruah or "Feast of Trumpets" (poor translation) is the feast "when no-one knows the day or the hour" - as the old Jewish idiom calls it.  Indeed, the Jews were often unsure when Yom Teruah would commence because it relied on two witnesses seeing the new moon (difficult if the sky is cloudy!), so sometimes Yom Teruah started a day late.  Yom Teruah is the fixed appointment of The Rapture, when the heavenly Groom comes calling to fetch His Bride.  At Yom Kippur both the Groom and His Bride return to rescue the Jewish remnant at the Battle for Jerusalem (sometimes referred to as Armageddon), and it is Judgment Day.  Sukkot or "Feast of Tabernacles" is the final celebration which eventually ushers in the Millennial Reign of Christ.  Bring it on!

[PeteWaldo]

Thank you, Pete, for your helpful words on why "Muslims" or "Followers of Muhammad" would be better terms to use than "jihadis".

I should have been a little more emphatic. For the last year or more I use the term "followers of Muhammad" in place of "Muslims" (except for a few instances where Muslim works better), specifically to illustrate to them on a sentence by sentence basis, that they are completely isolated in following Muhammad alone. In rejecting all of the prophets and witnesses as revealed in the 1600 year record of Yahweh to mankind, whose people have followed Him through two covenants for 3500 years. Most importantly rejecting the prophet Jesus and His prophesies, to follow Muhammad alone.
Not a single Muslim has objected to my using that term, perhaps because Muhammad himself referred to his followers that way, so they would be hard pressed to deny it without denigrating Muhammad.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2656.0

[PeteWaldo]

So next, with reference to Revelation 11:11-12, you asked what I meant by "The Rapture".  The title derives from the Latin translation of "caught up".  1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 states: "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout [Hebrew: teruah], with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.  And the dead in Christ will rise first [e.g. those mentioned in Revelation 11:11].  Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air [Note that Jesus does not fully descend to the earth until Yom Kippur].  And thus we shall always be with the Lord."  The Latin for "caught up" is rapiemur, hence the expression "Rapture".

It seems you are indicating a "pre-trib", "rapture" doctrine (which most Christians in this forum likely held at one time). If that is the case then it might be constructive to start with the history of the doctrine, in the thread at this link first:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=7.0
With a follow up regarding the scriptural support for the doctrine at this thread:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=8.0
Many more threads on that topic in the futurist forum section:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=2.0
Regarding the millennial reign:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=347.0
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3688.0

But before all of that, if you aren't already familiar, I recommend you explore the 3 viable approaches to Bible prophecy first:
http://www.christianeschatology.com/

[Ian Liddle]

Thank you, Pete, you make some interesting points.  I was particularly interested in your link to Obama's brother, which led to much useful information about President Obama and his family.  Also, I do not deny the "usefulness" of the so-called 'Arab Spring' to the Muslim Brotherhood, who effectively hi-jacked what started out as a broader-based protest against authoritarian rule.  I will reply to one comment you made, viz.- "It seems you are indicating a "pre-trib", 'rapture' doctrine".  Actually, I do not make any assumptions about the so-called "great tribulation" (and therefore its timing in reference to the Rapture) because I am unsure how other Christians define this "great tribulation".  For example, Revelation 2:10 refers to the persecuted church (in Smyrna) having "tribulation for ten days" (i.e. for ten years).  We know that the period from 303 to 313 A.D. was a time of extreme persecution for the church, with thousands upon thousands of Christians martyred for their faith due to the resolve of Diocletian to eliminate Christianity from the Roman Empire.  If we could speak to any of those fourth century Christian martyrs, we might have great difficulty persuading them that they had not lived through the "great tribulation".  Perhaps, however, some scholars believe that the catastrophic time described in Revelation chapters 6 to 9 is meant to refer to the "great tribulation".  I have written under a different topic that the events in Revelation chapters 6 to 9 were fulfilled in 536 A.D. (or shortly thereafter), and there is overwhelming historic and scientific evidence in support of this.  Perhaps other scholars believe that the final three-and-a-half years (as described in Revelation 11:7-10) are the time of the "great tribulation" - in which case we are in the middle of that time now.  Whilst some of us (maybe in the UK or in the USA) might not be suffering direct persecution, a great many Christians most definitely are being persecuted and even killed for their faith - as in Egypt, North Korea, northern Nigeria, Syria, etc., etc.  It is only if you define the Days of God's Wrath (as in Revelation 16) as the time of the "great tribulation" that you can describe me as holding a pre-trib rapture viewpoint!

[PeteWaldo]

Thank you, Pete, you make some interesting points.  I was particularly interested in your link to Obama's brother, which led to much useful information about President Obama and his family.  Also, I do not deny the "usefulness" of the so-called 'Arab Spring' to the Muslim Brotherhood, who effectively hi-jacked what started out as a broader-based protest against authoritarian rule.  I will reply to one comment you made, viz.- "It seems you are indicating a "pre-trib", 'rapture' doctrine".  Actually, I do not make any assumptions about the so-called "great tribulation" (and therefore its timing in reference to the Rapture) because I am unsure how other Christians define this "great tribulation".

Futurists as a 7-year period yet in our future:
http://www.christianeschatology.com/futurism_dispensationalism.htm
Preterists and partial-preterists as being the Roman empire slaughter of a million Jews and tearing down of their temple in 70 AD
http://www.christianeschatology.com/partial_preterism.htm
Historicists in this forum as being much of the 20th century
http://www.christianeschatology.com/historicism.htm
More specifically
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/great_tribulation.htm

For a brick by brick empirical argument, that will get you up to speed on how many in this forum approach prophecy within the traditional historicist context, it would be a great aid if you read The False Prophet available at the following link. It's free and fun to read.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_false_prophet.htm

For example, Revelation 2:10 refers to the persecuted church (in Smyrna) having "tribulation for ten days" (i.e. for ten years).  We know that the period from 303 to 313 A.D. was a time of extreme persecution for the church, with thousands upon thousands of Christians martyred for their faith due to the resolve of Diocletian to eliminate Christianity from the Roman Empire.  If we could speak to any of those fourth century Christian martyrs, we might have great difficulty persuading them that they had not lived through the "great tribulation".

Indeed. Though from the Hoover Institute: "Few people realize that we are today living through the largest persecution of Christians in history, worse even than the famous attacks under ancient Roman emperors like Diocletian and Nero. Estimates of the numbers of Christians under assault range from 100-200 million."
"And most of this persecution is taking place at the hands of Muslims. Of the top fifty countries persecuting Christians, forty-two have either a Muslim majority or have sizeable Muslim populations."
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/muslim_persecution_of_christians.htm

Perhaps, however, some scholars believe that the catastrophic time described in Revelation chapters 6 to 9 is meant to refer to the "great tribulation".  I have written under a different topic that the events in Revelation chapters 6 to 9 were fulfilled in 536 A.D. (or shortly thereafter), and there is overwhelming historic and scientific evidence in support of this.  Perhaps other scholars believe that the final three-and-a-half years (as described in Revelation 11:7-10) are the time of the "great tribulation" - in which case we are in the middle of that time now.

One of the places where the 3-1/2 year figure comes from is the book of Daniel. Please consider a stunning approach to that Hebrew idiom as understood by Hebrew scholars:
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm

Whilst some of us (maybe in the UK or in the USA) might not be suffering direct persecution, a great many Christians most definitely are being persecuted and even killed for their faith - as in Egypt, North Korea, northern Nigeria, Syria, etc., etc.  It is only if you define the Days of God's Wrath (as in Revelation 16) as the time of the "great tribulation" that you can describe me as holding a pre-trib rapture viewpoint!

The prophet John was writing about things that were, are and shall be, from John's perspective. If we stand in his shoes and consider the "whole world" from John's first century perspective, a stunning picture of fulfilled prophecy may be a little easier to see:
http://www.christianeschatology.com/historicism.htm#kingdom_beasts

Strong's: whole world
New Testament Greek Definition:
3625 oikoumene {oy-kou-men'-ay}
feminine participle present passive of 3611 (as noun, by
implication of 1093); TDNT - 5:157,674; n f
AV - world 14, earth 1; 15
1) the inhabited earth
1a) the portion of the earth inhabited by the Greeks, in
distinction from the lands of the barbarians
1b) the Roman empire, all the subjects of the empire
1c) the whole inhabited earth, the world
1d) the inhabitants of the earth, men
2) the universe, the world

Almost everyone in John's "whole world" is already marked by the name of the Islamic "beast". The remnant of God's people in John's "whole world" is being wiped out, as you also have indicated:
http://www.christianeschatology.com/historicism.htm#the_tragedy