Author Topic: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding  (Read 77606 times)

Peter

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #75 on: March 05, 2012, 12:05:54 PM »


Yes that's my voice, but I'm 61! Maybe I've just got a girly voice! ;D
But I am a new (young) Christian because I wasn't born again until 2003.

61, unbelievable :) I would like to read your story sometime. (Becoming a Christian)

I should write my testimony. I kind of remember doing one. I'll see if I can dig it up. I hope you make some time to listen to some of these folks testimonies.
http://www.youtube.com/user/Muslims4Jesus#g/u

1 John 4

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Is that mean, the onse who does not believe Juses(PBH) come in the flesh, is from the devil? We believe he was a man. And Hz.Muhammed was not a man who speaks of world.

Read it again. That is a test OF SPIRITS. Like when a spirit is speaking through someone that is "speaking in tongues".

I already showed you a test OF PERSONS but you ignored the post. Please click the following link, quote that post and address it now, along with the two posts that follow it.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3098.msg12533#msg12533

Here is a proof:

If you search the word dunya, which means world

I passes 115 times

The word ahiret, (means other world) passes 115 times

Devil (Sheytan) 88
Angel (Melek) 88

Hell 77
Heaven 77

Woman 23
man 23

I can give lots of examples like that. Surah The Cow 2/200

200.    So when ye have accomplished your holy rites, celebrate the praises of Allah, as ye used to celebrate the praises of your fathers,- yea, with far more heart and soul. There are men who say: "Our Lord! Give us (Thy bounties) in this world!" but they will have no portion in the Hereafter.

I can give many...

Brodher, you realy don't like this Ahmed Deedat guy. Have you ever talk to him?

No. Many Christian ministers told him that what he was spreading was false, but he ignored them. He's dead now, but still very much alive on YouTube, through his fellow liars uploading his videos. A rare form of stroke rendered him unable to speak a word of his blasphemy for 9 years before he died.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=271.0

I don't like him because he was a deceptive lying antichrist that fooled people through his lies.
As you could see from the verses I read in my video, from the very same translation of the First Epistle of John that Deedat pretended to quote from, that Epistle proclaims the Son of God and remission of sin and salvation through faith in His shed blood. That very same Epistle condemns the false prophet Muhammad over and over and over again.

But it isn't me that made Ahmed Deedat a liar

1John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

Bornao

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #76 on: March 06, 2012, 03:27:35 AM »

I should write my testimony. I kind of remember doing one. I'll see if I can dig it up. I hope you make some time to listen to some of these folks testimonies.
http://www.youtube.com/user/Muslims4Jesus#g/u

Brother you should have.
By the way I watched the the testimony thing in youtube. I can't say they are all fake, but the "Emrah, A Turkish Muslim's Journey from Islam to Christ" is. He does not have the accent of a Turkish man who lived in Turkey. Something Like Amhed Dedat is not an English man. Even the mosque at the back is not in Turkey. Anyway...


No. Many Christian ministers told him that what he was spreading was false, but he ignored them. He's dead now, but still very much alive on YouTube, through his fellow liars uploading his videos. A rare form of stroke rendered him unable to speak a word of his blasphemy for 9 years before he died.

I don't like him because he was a deceptive lying antichrist that fooled people through his lies.
As you could see from the verses I read in my video, from the very same translation of the First Epistle of John that Deedat pretended to quote from, that Epistle proclaims the Son of God and remission of sin and salvation through faith in His shed blood. That very same Epistle condemns the false prophet Muhammad over and over and over again.

Okay brother don't get angry, but I am not sure about your point. I seached te 1John.4 in google and I foun this. Don't get angry... But what I see is he is reading the part which I found. And if there is something wrong in his sayings forgive him. I am sure the ones who knows Bible better than us can see the wrong and ignore him. What we belive is the Surah: The Family Of Imran 3/133-134


133.    Be quick in the race for forgiveness from your Lord, and for a Garden whose width is that (of the whole) of the heavens and of the earth, prepared for the righteous,-

134.    Those who spend (freely), whether in prosperity, or in adversity; who restrain anger, and forgive (all) men;- for Allah loves those who do good;-

But it isn't me that made Ahmed Deedat a liar


You are really angry at this man, but you see, he made you so angry that you start making researchs etc. And it's a very good thing. If you are interested in searchings these kind of things, I can suggest you to clear your mind. I mean maybe Ahmed Dedat didn't clear his mind and made a mistake or something.
Forget about what he sad and what history tells etc. Focus on the books you have. These discussions are very old and endless. People are watching these kind of things only because they love to take sides. And only weak people convert to (Islam or Christianity) because of this kind of discussions. And you know what, this kind of discussions phushing away the ateist people who dosen't believe in the Creator. They say, "Look, they say there is God, but they don't even know how to worship. If there was a God they should have know hot to worship and we were discussing with them."

I am not ignoring any thing you post, I just couldn't have time to look at them. Sorry for the spelling mistakes, now I don't have time to fix tham. I got to go.
Peace

Peter

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #77 on: March 06, 2012, 06:02:37 AM »

I should write my testimony. I kind of remember doing one. I'll see if I can dig it up. I hope you make some time to listen to some of these folks testimonies.
http://www.youtube.com/user/Muslims4Jesus#g/u

Brother you should have.
By the way I watched the the testimony thing in youtube. I can't say they are all fake, but the "Emrah, A Turkish Muslim's Journey from Islam to Christ" is. He does not have the accent of a Turkish man who lived in Turkey. Something Like Amhed Dedat is not an English man. Even the mosque at the back is not in Turkey. Anyway...

You are simply putting effort into DISbelievief. To be a Turk doesn't someone simply have to be born in Turkey? Did it say either the guy or the mosque was in Turkey? Was it just a picture of some random mosque that was put on a green screen behind the guy? Can you provide a link?

Do you really think any Christian would lie about something like that? Unlike Islam, lying is not allowed in Christianity, but is a fast track to hell. All Muslims can lie about being a Muslim if denying it will save their own skin in this world, while many Christians are martyred every day all around the world, for simply refusing to deny Jesus Christ when it is demanded of them by Muhammad's followers.

Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Just like happened in Turkey where 3 Christians were tortured, and then murdered by having their throats slit by Muslims, for not reciting Islamic prayer that was demanded of them, or renouncing their faith in Jesus Christ.
The Muslims said they killed the three Christians "in defense of Islam".
http://www.youtube.com/user/Muslims4Jesus#p/search/1/bFTGNGja6vI

No. Many Christian ministers told him that what he was spreading was false, but he ignored them. He's dead now, but still very much alive on YouTube, through his fellow liars uploading his videos. A rare form of stroke rendered him unable to speak a word of his blasphemy for 9 years before he died.

I don't like him because he was a deceptive lying antichrist that fooled people through his lies.
As you could see from the verses I read in my video, from the very same translation of the First Epistle of John that Deedat pretended to quote from, that Epistle proclaims the Son of God and remission of sin and salvation through faith in His shed blood. That very same Epistle condemns the false prophet Muhammad over and over and over again.

Okay brother don't get angry, but I am not sure about your point. I seached te 1John.4 in google and I foun this. Don't get angry... But what I see is he is reading the part which I found.

No he isn't. I already explained that he created his own phony bible verse. Do you think I would lie about something like that? He spliced together two verses to create one of his own. It will be easier for you to see his fake verse in the text version, in which I thoroughly dissect what he did at this link
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=335.0

Additionally, I already explained to you that the verse you found is a test of spirits. Like when a person talks in tongues, or like when a person meets a demon in a cave the way Muhammad did. He didn't try that spirit, and since Muhammad professed the EXACT OPPOSITE of the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel, we can rest assured he did indeed meet a demon in that cave. Satan is tricky:

2Cr 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Yet even Muhammad was convinced it was a demon in that cave that felt like it tried to squeeze the life out of him 3 times. That is, until his wife Khadijah talked Muhammad out of it (Khadijah's father talked to demons all the time).
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1173.0

And if there is something wrong in his sayings forgive him.

He repeated his lie over and over as the foundation of his whole false denial that Muhammad was antichrist. Lie upon lie upon lie. He's dead. It isn't up to us to forgive him, but the very one that he denied and blasphemed

Jhn 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

It is up to me to expose his lie to Muhammad's bible-ignorant followers. His whole premise is ridiculous. According to Deedat's understanding of the verse, a Satanist could honestly confess that Jesus is the Christ, and that would make him a true prophet. Here is the other video I did on Deedat's ridiculous understanding and claim.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKMMr4lZx2E

I am sure the ones who knows Bible better than us can see the wrong and ignore him.

Sadly Muhammad's followers don't ignore Deedat, but embrace him. Millions of Muhammad's followers were/are so easily deceived by Deedat because virtually none of them have ever read the Gospel. Why don't you ignore Deedat and stop wasting your time as I already recommended.
You are still running and hiding from the three posts I requested that you address.
This isn't about Deedat, but about the one true God as He revealed Himself through the scriptures. This is my third or fourth request for you to please quote and answer these posts in order.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3098.msg12533#msg12533
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3098.msg12536#msg12536
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3098.msg12537#msg12537

Peter

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #78 on: March 06, 2012, 06:23:29 AM »
What we belive is the Surah: The Family Of Imran 3/133-134

133.    Be quick in the race for forgiveness from your Lord, and for a Garden whose width is that (of the whole) of the heavens and of the earth, prepared for the righteous,-

134.    Those who spend (freely), whether in prosperity, or in adversity; who restrain anger, and forgive (all) men;- for Allah loves those who do good;-

But it isn't me that made Ahmed Deedat a liar

You are really angry at this man, but you see, he made you so angry that you start making researchs etc.

I didn't need to research any of Deedat's blasphemy because I am a bible believing Christian. I'm not mad, but rather sad, for the millions of followers of Muhammad who loved having their ears ticked by Deedat's lies, as they marched merrily along in the EXACT OPPOSITE direction of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and in the direction of recycled, Mecca centered, historical Arabian paganism.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1227.0

And it's a very good thing. If you are interested in searchings these kind of things, I can suggest you to clear your mind. I mean maybe Ahmed Dedat didn't clear his mind and made a mistake or something.

I wish it were so, but he repeated his lie on several occasions - his fake bible verse formed the whole basis of his denial that Muhammad was antichrist - but even after being repeatedly corrected by Christian ministers he just kept on repeating his fake bible verse. I already explained all that and you are ignoring it.

Forget about what he sad and what history tells etc. Focus on the books you have.

A Christian only needs a single verse to know that Muhammad's religion is the EXACT OPPOSITE of that revealed through the ONE true God of the bible.

surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

A Satanic lie from straight out of the pit of hell. The EXACT OPPOSITE of the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel.

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3098.msg12537#msg12537

These discussions are very old and endless.

I don't believe this discussion is either old or endless. I think the truth was never so easily revealed or discussed as it has been for the last couple decades.
It is patently false to believe that Christianity is discussed, when in places like Saudi Arabia people are killed for discussing it. Proselytizing is illegal in Islamic countries, just as the penalty for a Muslim who comes to know the love of the one true God through a relationship with Jesus Christ, is killed for apostasy.
Again, from that same video a Turkey headline read, "10,000 have become Christians - Turkey gripped in fear", in apparent efforts to foment more violence against Christians.
http://www.youtube.com/user/Muslims4Jesus#p/search/1/bFTGNGja6vI

The scriptures are restricted or banned in 51 countries - both Islamic and communist - because neither doctrine can stand the light of the truth of the Gospel. Here's a map of them.
http://www.persecution.com/public/restrictednations.aspx?clickfrom=bWFpbl9tZW51

But Muhammad's victims in those closed countries are beginning to see the truth, which is that Jews and Christians follow the one true God of the bible, and Muhammad's followers follow Muhammad alone, through empty thinly veneered Sabian and Quraish pagan worship rituals.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1227.0

People are watching these kind of things only because they love to take sides.

No the two sides are established and distinct. ONE MUST CHOOSE one side or the other.
The side of the ONE true God as revealed through all of His prophets and witnesses in the 1600 year record of the scriptures, that His people have followed through two covenants, for 3500 years.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Or the side of the mass murderer Muhammad http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2983.0 and his STAND-ALONE 23 year 7th century record that is the EXACT OPPOSITE of the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=148.0

And only weak people convert to (Islam or Christianity) because of this kind of discussions. And you know what, this kind of discussions phushing away the ateist people who dosen't believe in the Creator. They say, "Look, they say there is God, but they don't even know how to worship. If there was a God they should have know hot to worship and we were discussing with them."

Atheists just put more effort into disbelief than you do. All a person has to do is consider bible prophecy to believe in the God of the scriptures. Why don't you take a look at this thread that I spent a couple minutes revamping the other day.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2447.0

I am not ignoring any thing you post, I just couldn't have time to look at them. Sorry for the spelling mistakes, now I don't have time to fix tham. I got to go.
Peace

Don't worry about spelling. Simply address the three posts you have been ignoring.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3098.msg12533#msg12533
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3098.msg12536#msg12536
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3098.msg12537#msg12537

Bornao

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #79 on: March 06, 2012, 09:27:46 AM »

I should write my testimony. I kind of remember doing one. I'll see if I can dig it up. I hope you make some time to listen to some of these folks testimonies.
http://www.youtube.com/user/Muslims4Jesus#g/u

Brother you should have.
By the way I watched the the testimony thing in youtube. I can't say they are all fake, but the "Emrah, A Turkish Muslim's Journey from Islam to Christ" is. He does not have the accent of a Turkish man who lived in Turkey. Something Like Amhed Dedat is not an English man. Even the mosque at the back is not in Turkey. Anyway...

You are simply putting effort into DISbelievief. To be a Turk doesn't someone simply have to be born in Turkey? Did it say either the guy or the mosque was in Turkey? Was it just a picture of some random mosque that was put on a green screen behind the guy? Can you provide a link?

Here you are angry again. Take it easy :) He is not the representative of Christianity. I do believe there are people who convert to Christianity. But here what we have is not this. If you say you were Muslim ones, you must know how to pronounce, "Allah" Show me 70 man like that, I can clearly pick up the one who was Muslim ones. Forgot the pronouncyetion part. Here he says, "to me a religion motivated by fear." and "Allah is force, ready to hurt..." He dosen't haven an idea what islam is.
I can give lots of Surahs for this, but I will do better. In Quran the word punishment passes 117 times. The word forgive passes two times of it= 234
Ok.  ;)

Do you really think any Christian would lie about something like that? Unlike Islam, lying is not allowed in Christianity, but is a fast track to hell. All Muslims can lie about being a Muslim, to save their own skin in this world, while many Christians are martyred every day all around the world, for simply refusing to deny Jesus Christ when it is demanded of them by Muhammad's followers.

lying is not allowed in Islam. Brother the word Islam is different from muslim. When you say Islam, it contains all the prophets that has been send by the Creator. And Muslims are not allowed to lie, too.
 

Just like happened in Turkey where 3 Christians were tortured, and then murdered by having their throats slit by Muslims, for not reciting Islamic prayer that was demanded of them, or renouncing their faith in Jesus Christ.
The murderers said they killed the three men "in defense of Islam".

You realy don't want to clear your mind brother. What you know is what you have been showen. Make a search in youtube:christians kill muslims and eat their meets
(Watch it if you can. I couldn't)

I don't like him because he was a deceptive lying antichrist that fooled people through his lies.
As you could see from the verses I read in my video, from the very same translation of the First Epistle of John that Deedat pretended to quote from, that Epistle proclaims the Son of God and remission of sin and salvation through faith in His shed blood. That very same Epistle condemns the false prophet Muhammad over and over and over again.

Ahmed Dedat is dead, but you still hate him. You know what we believe, after the taste of death, in the Judgment day the people who has problems will meet and solve it. I mean if I lie to you or stole something from you, you will find me there. Anyway...
About the false prophet part; false prophets come and go brother. Hundreds of, thousands of them came and go, without leaving anything behind. Lets say I am running for prophet. (Or imagine you do) Whow many people can we gain? Lets say alot. What then? After we die we will lose them all in time. Brother it has been 1400 years. I mean come on. It's a very long period of time. The Muslim number is increasing. Even the nations joining islam has been mentioned in Quran.

Surah The Help110/2
2.    And thou dost see the people enter Allah's Religion in crowds,

No he isn't. I already explained that he created his own phony bible verse. Do you think I would lie about something like that? He spliced together two verses to create one of his own. It will be easier for you to see his fake verse in the text version, in which I thoroughly dissect what he did at this link

Okay, brother get it now. What you mean is he put two verses. Okay, I only checked the begining. (It's some kind of a habit. You know, we don't have verses ect.)
Additionally, I already explained to you that the verse you found is a test of spirits. Like when a person talks in tongues, or like when a person meets a demon in a cave the way Muhammad did. He didn't try that spirit, and since Muhammad professed the EXACT OPPOSITE of the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel, we can rest assured he did indeed meet a demon in that cave. Satan is tricky:

Brother, you miss something. What Hz.Muhammed saw was not a man.

Surah The Star 53/7-8-9

7.    While he was in the highest part of the horizon:   
8.    Then he approached and came closer,   
9.    And was at a distance of but two bow-lengths or (even) nearer;

And if Gabral was satan what about the things he said: Don't drink alchol, don't kill,  obey your Creator, do good thinks etc...


http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3098.msg12533#msg12533
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3098.msg12536#msg12536
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3098.msg12537#msg12537

Sorry for ignoring them brother. But we realy write too much. (I forgat them when I write) From now on I will not write anything here before I watch them ok. Take it easy and Peace :)

Bornao

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #80 on: March 06, 2012, 10:13:34 AM »

Those are not my thoughts. It comes from the scriptures.

1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Please read the verse again and comment. Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God or do you deny it?

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].


I thoht I was going to watch a long video when I ckick it. Sorry for making you wait.

Here is my answer:
If the, "SON of GOD" means Hz.Juses send by God, Yes, Hz.Juses is son of God.
If it means, he is belong to God, I mean all the people all the dogs and plants etc... Yes, he is one of the sons of God.
If you say Creator had a baby from a woman, NO. A BIG NO.
Creator can't do things which we can say in the same sentence.
Can't create a rock which he can't lift. Can't see one of his kind. Can't smoke a cigaret, drink wine, get drunk, sex, take a shit etc...
Ok :)

Wait for my next post please, I would like to answer all or I can forget them when I read yours. :)

Peter

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #81 on: March 06, 2012, 11:20:11 AM »

Those are not my thoughts. It comes from the scriptures.

1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Please read the verse again and comment. Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God or do you deny it?

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].


I thoht I was going to watch a long video when I ckick it. Sorry for making you wait.

Here is my answer:
If the, "SON of GOD" means Hz.Juses send by God, Yes, Hz.Juses is son of God.
If it means, he is belong to God, I mean all the people all the dogs and plants etc... Yes, he is one of the sons of God.
If you say Creator had a baby from a woman, NO. A BIG NO.
Creator can't do things which we can say in the same sentence.
Can't create a rock which he can't lift. Can't see one of his kind. Can't smoke a cigaret, drink wine, get drunk, sex, take a sh*t etc...
Ok :)

Wait for my next post please, I would like to answer all or I can forget them when I read yours. :)

But you didn't finish with this post. You failed to quote the rest of it. It ended:
______________________

Here are hundreds of verses regarding God the Father and His Son.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=611.0
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=610.0
_______________________

So go to this link and tell me who Jesus' Father is.
Did Mary conceive Jesus all by herself?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=610.0

Then go to this link from that post and tell me who THE Son of God is.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=611.0

Who did God say His Son is?
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Mar 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, [saying], Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Luk 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
2Pe 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Just as was prophesied of the Messiah so many hundreds of years before.

Psalms 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. 7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Bornao

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #82 on: March 06, 2012, 12:52:55 PM »
Surah 9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. 30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

Sura 9.111 Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah. then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.

I thing what you are asking is; You say peace, peace, peace all the time, than what is this?
Right?
Before I start let me give you a information about Surah Repentance 9/

When we read Quran we start with, "In the name of Allah, who is Most Gracious, Most Merciful." Wacth it. This is the only surah that we don't say "Bismillahirrahmanirrahim"
And here we go,

All that years, I mean when Quran strats to come, all the muslims was told to live in peace. Don't hurt anybody, don't say bad words... Even pagan says a bad thing to their face, they were told to say "Peace" and go. Don't even argu with pagans. But, as the years pass by the pagans made their life miserable, so they start hejira to City Medine. At first the strong ones (who can take the journey) go to Medine to find places to live.  But Pagans started torturing the ones at Mecca. I prefere not to talk about the details. Muslims wanted their familys back from the pagans and the war starts. I hate history so I go fast...
Muslims and pagans made an agreement, and stopped fighting. But the pagans did not actually stop and made sudden attacks.
After that This surah came and it strats like this:

1.    A (declaration) of immunity from Allah and His Messenger, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances:-

and go on...
If you want, you can read it.

Surah 9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

I think this is about you? Don't you?  ;D

Watch the word "Katilüllezıneehlel" it says. Not, "ehlel kitab"
It's sayin the people of the book in translation (short way to say) But in the original it says the ones who was given book. Whats the point?
Here it is:

Muslims are ordered to feed the poor. We call it Zekat. But the Christians are not. And then pagans strats to say I am Christian. (See, they have given books, but does not even believe the other life.) So it says fight those, the pagans (not you my brother.) till they until they pay the Jizya with their hands.
-Allah knows best, this is only my translation-

30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

I forgot Jews sayin, "Ãœzeir is Allah's son. Brother, this is something you must think about it.

9/111 Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the Garden (of Paradise): they fight in His Cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in Truth, through the Torah, the Gospel, and the Quran: and who is more faithful to his Covenant than Allah? Then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.

Brother, it dosen't say don't love your neighbors or something like that. You don't have any idea how many times the word love passes in Quran. You think it says, "Go! Kill the pagans, oo yeah!" or something like that. NO! Even saying bad words to a pagan's face is not permited in Islam. In Islam you only have right to fight back.

Qur'an Sura 33:26 Allah took down the People of the Scripture Book. He cast terror into their hearts. Some you slew, and some you made prisoners. And He made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods, giving you a land which you had not traversed before. And Allah has power over all things.

I think you are stock with the word "terror" here. In the original, I have never seen a word terror. It says put fear in their hards.

Here is what happened. I think the Scripture of the Book means, The Jews. Because they made an agreement with the pagans to attack Muslims (Although they have  agreement not to fight anymore.

Brother, what I see is, you think Quran is always talks about Christianity. Do you think we realy care about Christianity. Make a search in Quran. What you will see is our enemies are pagans.

Surah The Food/82

82.    Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.

Peace Brother. We are nor enemies

Bornao

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #83 on: March 06, 2012, 12:58:51 PM »
Patient brother.
Please don't make comment before I finish those links. Just say "You forgot this" then I respond :) (tomorrow)

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #84 on: March 07, 2012, 02:06:39 AM »

Those are not my thoughts. It comes from the scriptures.

1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Please read the verse again and comment. Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God or do you deny it?

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].


I thoht I was going to watch a long video when I ckick it. Sorry for making you wait.

Here is my answer:
If the, "SON of GOD" means Hz.Juses send by God, Yes, Hz.Juses is son of God.
If it means, he is belong to God, I mean all the people all the dogs and plants etc... Yes, he is one of the sons of God.
If you say Creator had a baby from a woman, NO. A BIG NO.
Creator can't do things which we can say in the same sentence.
Can't create a rock which he can't lift. Can't see one of his kind. Can't smoke a cigaret, drink wine, get drunk, sex, take a sh*t etc...
Ok :)

Wait for my next post please, I would like to answer all or I can forget them when I read yours. :)

But you didn't finish with this post. You failed to quote the rest of it. It ended:

Brother, the links that you gave are the parts of Bible.
I believe in Quran, but I don't believe in the trasnlations of Quran.
And you expect me to believe in the translations and versions and translations of versions of Bible. Even the translations Quran has many mistakes and giving the right expression problems. (And this happens although we have a unchanged book in our hands.)
Look:


Surah 9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

I think this is about you? Don't you?  ;D
(Nooooo I was going to say, "You think this is about you? Not I think this is about you  :-[


Watch the word "Katilüllezıneehlel" in the original. What I see this word passes two times in whole Quran (They are all in the same Surah, in the Repentance 9/) and they translate the word "Katilüllezıneehlel" to "The people of the book"
Even they translate the word correct, what about the expression, what about translation made you feel? Are they right?
It looks like saying, "Kill the pagans!, where ever you find. Make tham pay their taxes."
And you know what, If I translate this English translation to Turkish it will be like that:

 "Onlarla kavga edin, onlar ki; Allah'a, son güne, Allah'ın ve peygamberin yasaklarını kabul etmezler. Hak din Ä°slam'ı din edinmeyen insanlarla, cizyeyi verinceye kadar kavgayı bitirmeyin."

And I am trasnlating to Enghish again:

Brawl (Puch and kick them) those, those ones who don't believe Allah, the end day and the Allah's and Prophets off-limits. Don't stop punching and kicking the ones who dose not know the right dealing religion Islam, till they give cizye.

You know what, after that time we are going to use off-limit word instead of forbidden. And we all going to believe that Allah and Prophets has off-limits and this is what Quran is all about. And this reasinable. There is also a good philosophy under it.
Brother don't wait me to trust the translatinons of versions of Bible. 
Nobody can chage the word of Creator, it always remains. But these are translatinons and versions of Bible. They are not Bible.

I respect your belief, sorry if I hurt your feelings, but this is what I see.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 02:12:09 AM by Bornao »

Bornao

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #85 on: March 07, 2012, 02:11:35 AM »
And If you don't trust me about the translation problems. Again and again, I am asking you which language can you speak rather than English. Than I can show that translation problem easier.

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #86 on: March 07, 2012, 05:39:04 AM »
And If you don't trust me about the translation problems. Again and again, I am asking you which language can you speak rather than English. Than I can show that translation problem easier.

I understand completely the problems with translating the Quran. Here's the way Gerd Rüdiger Puin, an authority on Qur'anic historical orthography, the study and scholarly interpretation of ancient manuscripts, who is also a specialist in Arabic paleography, put it.

In the 1999 Atlantic Monthly article referenced below, Gerd Puin is quoted as saying that:[1]
My idea is that the Koran is a kind of cocktail of texts that were not all understood even at the time of Muhammad. Many of them may even be a hundred years older than Islam itself. Even within the Islamic traditions there is a huge body of contradictory information, including a significant Christian substrate; one can derive a whole Islamic anti-history from them if one wants. The Qur’an claims for itself that it is ‘mubeen,’ or clear, but if you look at it, you will notice that every fifth sentence or so simply doesn’t make sense. Many Muslims will tell you otherwise, of course, but the fact is that a fifth of the Qur’anic text is just incomprehensible. This is what has caused the traditional anxiety regarding translation. If the Qur’an is not comprehensible, if it can’t even be understood in Arabic, then it’s not translatable into any language. That is why Muslims are afraid. Since the Qur’an claims repeatedly to be clear but is not—there is an obvious and serious contradiction. Something else must be going on.

Words being washed off and replaced in the oldest Quran manuscript ever found http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sana%27a_manuscripts shows us that the Quran was still in the process of being changed long after Muhammad lived.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerd_R._Puin

Compare that with Hebrew scribal methodology
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=97.0

"To suggest there was tampering to the Old Testament documents prior to 300 B.C. shows a misunderstanding of Israelite scribal methodology and of their reverence for the Scriptures. First of all, biblical scrolls were written on the inside only to prevent any smudging or smearing that might lead to a misreading of the text. When being copied -- besides many parallel readings -- the copy was compared with the original in every way humanly possible.

The words in each column were counted and then the letters. The first, last, and middle letter and word in each column had to be identical to the original. If the number of words or the number of letters of the copy differed from the original, the copy was destroyed. Then they counted the words and letters in the whole document. They divided the document into quarters and into eighths. The first, last and middle letter in each section had to be the same. The number of words and the number of letters in each section had to be the same.  The middle word and the middle letter in each section had to be the same, and they had to be the same for the whole document. If not, the copy was destroyed. Not corrected, but destroyed!"

Peter

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #87 on: March 07, 2012, 06:43:46 AM »

Those are not my thoughts. It comes from the scriptures.

1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Please read the verse again and comment. Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God or do you deny it?

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].


I thoht I was going to watch a long video when I ckick it. Sorry for making you wait.

Here is my answer:
If the, "SON of GOD" means Hz.Juses send by God, Yes, Hz.Juses is son of God.
If it means, he is belong to God, I mean all the people all the dogs and plants etc... Yes, he is one of the sons of God.
If you say Creator had a baby from a woman, NO. A BIG NO.
Creator can't do things which we can say in the same sentence.
Can't create a rock which he can't lift. Can't see one of his kind. Can't smoke a cigaret, drink wine, get drunk, sex, take a sh*t etc...
Ok :)

Wait for my next post please, I would like to answer all or I can forget them when I read yours. :)

But you didn't finish with this post. You failed to quote the rest of it. It ended:

Brother, the links that you gave are the parts of Bible.
I believe in Quran, but I don't believe in the trasnlations of Quran.
And you expect me to believe in the translations and versions and translations of versions of Bible.

But ALL bible translations contain those HUNDREDS OF VERSES that proclaim the Father and His Son. You can go to the following link, and put any one of those hundreds of verses in the window, and then pick from a dozen different translations on the drop down menu at the top left and select and THEY WILL ALL SAY THE SAME THING, just in different words.
http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm

The New Testament was revealed in Koine Greek. In that same menu in the upper left you can also select the Greek/English word-for-word interlinear.

Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Mar 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, [saying], Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Luk 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
2Pe 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Let's look at the last verse above in the interlinear, since that is the most complex and will be the most prone to variation.

(Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT) 2 Peter 1:17 labwn <2983> (5631) {HAVING RECEIVED} gar <1063> {FOR} para <3844> {FROM} qeou <2316> {GOD [THE]} patroV <3962> {FATHER} timhn <5092> {HONOUR} kai <2532> {AND} doxan <1391> {GLORY,} fwnhV <5456> {A VOICE} enecqeishV <5342> (5685) {HAVING BEEN BROUGHT} autw <846> {TO HIM} toiasde <5107> {SUCH} upo <5259> {BY} thV <3588> {THE} megaloprepouV <3169> {VERY EXCELLENT} doxhV <1391> {GLORY:} outoV <3778> {THIS} estin <2076> (5748) {IS} o <3588> uioV <5207> mou <3450> {MY SON} o <3588> {THE} agaphtoV <27> {BELOVED,} eiV <1519> {IN} on <3739> {WHOM} egw <1473> {I} eudokhsa <2106> (5656) {HAVE FOUND DELIGHT.}

Now let's look at some translations.

(NKJV) 2 Peter 1:17 For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

(NASB) 2 Peter 1:17 For when He received honor and glory from God the Father, such an utterance as this was made to Him by the Majestic Glory, "This is My beloved Son with whom I am well-pleased"--

(CEV) 2 Peter 1:17 God, our great and wonderful Father, truly honored him by saying, "This is my own dear Son, and I am pleased with him."

(TEV) 2 Peter 1:17 We were there when he was given honor and glory by God the Father, when the voice came to him from the Supreme Glory, saying, "This is my own dear Son, with whom I am pleased!"

(RSV) 2 Peter 1:17 For when he received honor and glory from God the Father and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,"

(Rotherham) 2 Peter 1:17 For, when he received from God the Father honour and glory, a voice, being borne to him such as this, by the magnificent glory--My Son, the beloved, is, this, in whom, I, delight,

(BBE) 2 Peter 1:17 For God the Father gave him honour and glory, when such a voice came to him out of the great glory, saying, This is my dearly loved Son, with whom I am well pleased.

(Holman NT) 2 Peter 1:17 For when He received honor and glory from God the Father, a voice came to Him from the Majestic Glory: This is My beloved Son. I take delight in Him!

You can also find on that drop-down menu Strong's Definitions that picks apart each word in the Koine Greek and explores all the different senses and variations in meaning that it might have.
http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm

Peter

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #88 on: March 07, 2012, 06:44:18 AM »
Even the translations Quran has many mistakes and giving the right expression problems. (And this happens although we have a unchanged book in our hands.)

I realize that is what you have been taught to believe, but the Quran was collected up and various copies burned - on two separate occasions - and even after that, you can see in the image two posts back that the oldest manuscript shows it was still in a state of flux because of washing and changing.

Look:


Surah 9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

I think this is about you? Don't you?  ;D
(Nooooo I was going to say, "You think this is about you? Not I think this is about you  :-[


Watch the word "Katilüllezıneehlel" in the original. What I see this word passes two times in whole Quran (They are all in the same Surah, in the Repentance 9/) and they translate the word "Katilüllezıneehlel" to "The people of the book"
Even they translate the word correct, what about the expression, what about translation made you feel? Are they right?
It looks like saying, "Kill the pagans!, where ever you find. Make tham pay their taxes."
And you know what, If I translate this English translation to Turkish it will be like that:

 "Onlarla kavga edin, onlar ki; Allah'a, son güne, Allah'ın ve peygamberin yasaklarını kabul etmezler. Hak din Ä°slam'ı din edinmeyen insanlarla, cizyeyi verinceye kadar kavgayı bitirmeyin."

And I am trasnlating to Enghish again:

Brawl (Puch and kick them) those, those ones who don't believe Allah, the end day and the Allah's and Prophets off-limits. Don't stop punching and kicking the ones who dose not know the right dealing religion Islam, till they give cizye.

That communicates the same thing to me. Just as your scholars do.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2983.0
Bukhari, V1 B2 #24 Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives an property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

Sahih Al-Bukhari - "Jihad is holy fighting in Allah’s Cause with full force of weaponry. It is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its Pillars. By Jihad Islam is established, Allah is made superior and He becomes the only God who may be worshiped. By Jihad Islam is propagated and made superior. By abandoning Jihad (may Allah protect us from that) Islam is destroyed and Muslims fall into an inferior position. Their honor is lost, their lands are stolen, and Muslim rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim. He who tries to escape this duty dies as a hypocrite." page 580 of Maktba Dar-us-Salam's Sahih Al-Bukhari

Made all the more clear through the historical record that tells us that the rape, pillage and plunder of the Islamic first jihad conquered nearly the whole known world, until being stopped by suffering defeats in Tours France and Vienna Austria.

Peter

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #89 on: March 07, 2012, 06:46:33 AM »
You know what, after that time we are going to use off-limit word instead of forbidden. And we all going to believe that Allah and Prophets has off-limits and this is what Quran is all about. And this reasinable. There is also a good philosophy under it.
Brother don't wait me to trust the translatinons of versions of Bible.

It isn't about translations. Somehow my emphasis was apparently not sufficient in prior posts. The WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel is the crucifixion, death and resurrection of the Messiah who saves all from sin who have faith in His shed blood.
Surely you can see that can't possibly be an error in translation since the WHOLE SUBJECT of the WHOLE GOSPEL is exactly that. WITNESS AFTER WITNESS, VERSE AFTER VERSE. Old Testament prophecy and New Testament prophecy. The WHOLE SUBJECT of the WHOLE BIBLE is about remission of sin through blood sacrifice, and the Old Testament (covenant) prophecy of the coming Messiah, and His New Testament (covenant) fulfillment as the final solution for remission of sin.

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh [is] in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it [is] the blood [that] maketh an atonement for the soul.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm

I recently did a thread on the Passover Lamb of God in prophecy.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3080.0

Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Please read the following thread or click on the videos on that link regarding the crucifixion of the Messiah in prophecy.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2641.0

It isn't about translation because you MUST reject ALL of the prophets and witnesses of the one true God Yahweh, as revealed in His 1600 year record, to follow Muhammad.

 
Nobody can chage the word of Creator, it always remains. But these are translatinons and versions of Bible. They are not Bible.

I respect your belief, sorry if I hurt your feelings, but this is what I see.

My friend, how could my feelings be hurt? I am with the ONE true God of the Jews and Christians, as He revealed Himself through ALL of His prophets and witnesses in His 1600 year record of revelation to mankind, that His people have followed through two covenants for 3500 years. I am born again and enjoy a personal relationship with my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I am in Jesus Christ, and He is in me.

You follow Muhammad alone through his 23 year 7th century record, that proclaims the EXACT OPPOSITE of the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel.

Earlier you quoted to me from your own book:

Sura 5:47 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

By Muhammad's day the bible had been translated into every popular language, had been copied tens of thousands of times, and had been read all over the known world for centuries. The WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel was the crucifixion, death and resurrection of the Messiah, in the FIRST CENTURY in Muhammad's SEVENTH CENTURY as it is today. The crucifixion, death and resurrection of the Messiah. Was Muhammad lying or just plain ignorant, for him to have made such an egregious error in recommendation?

Bornao

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #90 on: March 07, 2012, 06:52:15 AM »
And If you don't trust me about the translation problems. Again and again, I am asking you which language can you speak rather than English. Than I can show that translation problem easier.

I understand completely the problems with translating the Quran. Here's the way Gerd Rüdiger Puin, an authority on Qur'anic historical orthography, the study and scholarly interpretation of ancient manuscripts, who is also a specialist in Arabic paleography, put it.

In the 1999 Atlantic Monthly article referenced below, Gerd Puin is quoted as saying that:[1]
My idea is that the Koran is a kind of cocktail of texts that were not all understood even at the time of Muhammad. Many of them may even be a hundred years older than Islam itself. Even within the Islamic traditions there is a huge body of contradictory information, including a significant Christian substrate; one can derive a whole Islamic anti-history from them if one wants. The Qur’an claims for itself that it is ‘mubeen,’ or clear, but if you look at it, you will notice that every fifth sentence or so simply doesn’t make sense. Many Muslims will tell you otherwise, of course, but the fact is that a fifth of the Qur’anic text is just incomprehensible. This is what has caused the traditional anxiety regarding translation. If the Qur’an is not comprehensible, if it can’t even be understood in Arabic, then it’s not translatable into any language. That is why Muslims are afraid. Since the Qur’an claims repeatedly to be clear but is not—there is an obvious and serious contradiction. Something else must be going on.

Words being washed off and replaced in the oldest Quran manuscript ever found http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sana%27a_manuscripts shows us that the Quran was still in the process of being changed long after Muhammad lived.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerd_R._Puin

Compare that with Hebrew scribal methodology
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=97.0

"To suggest there was tampering to the Old Testament documents prior to 300 B.C. shows a misunderstanding of Israelite scribal methodology and of their reverence for the Scriptures. First of all, biblical scrolls were written on the inside only to prevent any smudging or smearing that might lead to a misreading of the text. When being copied -- besides many parallel readings -- the copy was compared with the original in every way humanly possible.

The words in each column were counted and then the letters. The first, last, and middle letter and word in each column had to be identical to the original. If the number of words or the number of letters of the copy differed from the original, the copy was destroyed. Then they counted the words and letters in the whole document. They divided the document into quarters and into eighths. The first, last and middle letter in each section had to be the same. The number of words and the number of letters in each section had to be the same.  The middle word and the middle letter in each section had to be the same, and they had to be the same for the whole document. If not, the copy was destroyed. Not corrected, but destroyed!"

Brother what you found (in internet) is not the oldes Quran copy. Sorry for that ;D

And if you ever foud the oldest one you know what (by the way can clearly say you are not reading all things I write :'() Iti's not the scripts that carries Quran to our times. It's the Hafizuns. Ok?

Bornao

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #91 on: March 07, 2012, 07:29:34 AM »
Sahih Al-Bukhari - "Jihad is holy fighting in Allah’s Cause with full force of weaponry. It is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its Pillars. By Jihad Islam is established, Allah is made superior and He becomes the only God who may be worshiped. By Jihad Islam is propagated and made superior. By abandoning Jihad (may Allah protect us from that) Islam is destroyed and Muslims fall into an inferior position. Their honor is lost, their lands are stolen, and Muslim rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim. He who tries to escape this duty dies as a hypocrite." page 580 of Maktba Dar-us-Salam's Sahih Al-Bukhari


Here comes the History Brother again. Muslims sad that, Bukhari sad that....

What abou 9 11? Now everybody knows it was not muslims who did that. And killing more than 30.000 civilians in Afkanistan. That bombs does not say, "Stop! this is a baby." Or what about Irak. What were you doing there? Isn't Irak thousands of miles away from you? Waht about the kids and children there? Killing people like that is okay with christianity. How many orphans have you left there?

I don't want to talk about these brother. Nobody is the representative of his/her religion. If you want to ask me queastions about Quran, ask.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 07:35:03 AM by Bornao »

Peter

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #92 on: March 07, 2012, 08:07:23 AM »
Sahih Al-Bukhari - "Jihad is holy fighting in Allah’s Cause with full force of weaponry. It is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its Pillars. By Jihad Islam is established, Allah is made superior and He becomes the only God who may be worshiped. By Jihad Islam is propagated and made superior. By abandoning Jihad (may Allah protect us from that) Islam is destroyed and Muslims fall into an inferior position. Their honor is lost, their lands are stolen, and Muslim rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim. He who tries to escape this duty dies as a hypocrite." page 580 of Maktba Dar-us-Salam's Sahih Al-Bukhari


Here comes the History Brother again. Muslims sad that, Bukhari sad that....

No, Muslims DID THAT. Conquered nearly the whole known world during the Islamic first jihad all the way up to France and Austria, just as Muhammad himself engaged in imperialistic conquest, and dictated that his true followers do.

What abou 9 11? Now everybody knows it was not muslims who did that.

Come on, my friend, citing some conspiracy nuts won't change the historical record of the Islamic First Jihad, or the fact that there have been over 18,000 deadly Islamic terror attacks just since 9-11 by Muhammad's TRUE FUNDAMENTAL FOLLOWERS that GET ISLAM, and do what they can to do as Muhammad did and told them to do.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com

And killing more than 30.000 civilians in Afkanistan. That bombs does not say, "Stop! this is a baby." Or what about Irak.

I showed you repeatedly where THE QURAN and the Hadith call Muhammad's followers to fight and slay non-Muslims into submission to Muhammad's followers.
Now show me where THE GOSPEL calls the followers of Jesus Christ to engage in anything of the kind.

http://www.islamandthetruth.com/gospel_of_john.htm

What were you doing there?

I wasn't. I live in the U.S.

Isn't Irak thousands of miles away from you?

Ron Paul asks the same question.

Waht about the kids and children there? Killing people like that is okay with christianity. How many orphans have you left there?

I don't want to talk about these brother. Nobody is the representative of his/her religion. If you want to ask me queastions about Quran, ask.

The reason you don't want to talk about it is that THE QURAN calls Muhammad's followers to fight, slay, and perpetrate violence against non-Muslims, and subjugate and enslave others, while THE GOSPEL calls Jesus' followers to love our neighbors, and even our enemies.

Bornao

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #93 on: March 07, 2012, 08:20:06 AM »
The reason you don't want to talk about it is that THE QURAN calls Muhammad's followers to fight slay and perpetrate violence against non-Muslims

Brother if there is something like that in Quran I can clearly say "YES AND HERE IT IS." 
Tell me the Surah and the ayeth number than I answer that. Ok?

Peter

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #94 on: March 07, 2012, 08:32:21 AM »
The reason you don't want to talk about it is that THE QURAN calls Muhammad's followers to fight slay and perpetrate violence against non-Muslims

Brother if there is something like that in Quran I can clearly say "YES AND HERE IT IS." 
Tell me the Surah and the ayeth number than I answer that. Ok?

I already did but you want to pretend it doesn't exist, just like you want to pretend the Islamic First Jihad never happened, and that somehow the true fundamental followers of Muhammad today - the terrorists - are wrong and you are right.

Sura 8:12 I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them

But they'd be just as happy to cut your head of as a hypocrite renegade, as they would mine. Again,

Surah 9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. 30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

Muhammad even orders up his alter-ego "Allah's" curse on Yahweh's people like some sort of a voodoo incantation. Thus it is painfully obvious that Muslims DO NOT worship the God of the Jews and Christians.

Sura 9.111 Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah. then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.

That is of course a satanic lie regarding the Gospel, but SLAYING NON-MUSLIMS IN "ALLAH'S" CAUSE IS BINDING ON MUHAMMAD'S FOLLOWERS IN THE QURAN!

Making it even more obvious that Muslims do not worship the God of the Jews and Christians but follow the murderous father of lies, and death and destruction, both physical and spiritual. The Quran continually revealed as the EXACT OPPOSITE of the Gospel.

Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

John 13:35 By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Now I showed you where the Quran calls Muhammad's followers to fight and subjugate others.
Now it's your turn to show me where the Gospel calls Jesus' followers to fight and subjugate others. Why not start with the Gospel of John?
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/gospel_of_john.htm

More on the love of God from that first Epistle Deedat pretended to quote from:

(KJV) 1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.   8  He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.   9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.    10  Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins.   11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.   12  No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.   13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.    14  And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of the world.    15  Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.   16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/first_epistle_john.htm#1_john_4_7

My friend, all I can do is show you the truth of the Gospel as confirmed by history, archaeology, geography and particularly through fulfilled bible prophecy. http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2447.0
I've read the Quran cover to cover - every word - in chronological order. Have you ever read even one book of the Gospel? If not why not?
sura 4:136 O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

How can you believe in something you've never read?

Sura 80.13 (It is) in Books held (greatly) in honour, 14 Exalted (in dignity), kept pure and holy,15 (Written) by the hands of scribes- 16 Honourable and Pious and Just.
sura 5:48 To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

Do you trust God to show you the truth?
Why don't you read the Gospel now, while asking Jesus for help in understanding?
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/gospel_of_john.htm
Nobody in the world can "convert" you. Only Jesus can change a person's heart. Beginning a relationship with Him is a matter between the two of you. All you have to do is humbly ask Him for His help.

Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

resistingrexmundi

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #95 on: March 07, 2012, 09:22:03 AM »
Bornao,

If I recall correctly you are from Turkey. Correct? Do you think you would be a muslim now if Islam had not conquered Turkey in the first century of Islam's existence? Why do you believe they were conquering in the first place?
Doth that man love his Lord who would be willing to see Jesus wearing a crown of thorns, while for himself he craves a chaplet of laurel? Shall Jesus ascend to his throne by the cross, and do we expect to be carried there on the shoulders of applauding crowds? Charles H. Spurgeon

Bornao

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #96 on: March 07, 2012, 09:34:01 AM »

I already did but you want to pretend it doesn't exist, and that somehow the true fundamental followers of Muhammad - the terrorists - are wrong and you are right. But they'd be just as happy to cut your head of as a hypocrite renegade, as they would mine. Again,

Surah 9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. 30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

Brother I did answer that.

No, sorry for that. I wrote wrong. I wrote Katilüllezıne instead of "utül kitübe hatta" And I am saying again it's about the pagans, not Christians and Jews. The ones who dose not believe in Creator and so on... ( The Surah 929)
(I would be happy if you erase the word Katilüllezıne in my previous post)

To make you understan better here is Surah The Spider29/46

46.    And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except in the best way, unless it be with those of them who do wrong: but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you. Our God and your God is One; and it is to Him we submit (in Isl�m)."

Surah The Examined One60/8

8.    Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.

These are some proofs what I heve been saying. Ok?

You can't attack even a pagan if he dose not attacks you. You are only allowed to fight back.

And about Surah 9/30

Yes, Jews called Ãœzeyir the son of God. And you are doing the something. What can I do about it? Talk the Jews, tell them about your belief. Tell tham that you believe Hz.Jesus is son of God, not Ãœzeyir.

Peter

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #97 on: March 07, 2012, 10:00:12 AM »

I already did but you want to pretend it doesn't exist, and that somehow the true fundamental followers of Muhammad - the terrorists - are wrong and you are right. But they'd be just as happy to cut your head of as a hypocrite renegade, as they would mine. Again,

Surah 9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. 30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

Brother I did answer that.

No, sorry for that. I wrote wrong. I wrote Katilüllezıne instead of "utül kitübe hatta" And I am saying again it's about the pagans, not Christians and Jews. The ones who dose not believe in Creator and so on... ( The Surah 929)

Read it again.
But even more sadly, it is Satan himself - the father of lies - that has deceived you through the spirit of antichrist, to the fact that it would be just as evil to slay and subjugate pagans, as the People of the Book.

Furthermore sura 29 that you quoted from was from Muhammad's early Mecca days, and those less violent verses are abrogated by his post Hijra Medina suras that call his people to imperialistic conquest and subjugation of non-Muslims. If you read the Quran in chronological order you will see the transformation to pure evil more easily. The following link lists the chronological order.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=609.0
More on Abrogation
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=116.0
Sura 9 that I quoted from is the second to last sura, in chronological order of "revelation", of all 114 suras, so it takes precedence over all that earlier Mecca stuff including Muhammad's "no compulsion in religion" drivel.
This is why Muhammad's TRUE FOLLOWERS have been murdering and subjugating non-Muslims all around the world for 1400 years.

Bornao

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #98 on: March 07, 2012, 10:41:16 AM »
Bornao,

If I recall correctly you are from Turkey. Correct? Do you think you would be a muslim now if Islam had not conquered Turkey in the first century of Islam's existence? Why do you believe they were conquering in the first place?

Brother, you have no idea how many times I sad there is no got. And what I believe, (Allah knows best) saying I am muslim is not enough. I also believe saying I am Christian is not enough. You have to obey the rules of your belief. Look at your book and do what the prophets ordered to do. Circumcision, prey, baptism, don't drink alchol, no sex between single people, don't marry and divorce like you are dating ect...
(I am not saying you are doing bad things, these are my thoughts)

As a man who sad the is no God, my answer is, yes. I think I was going to be Muslim again. And brother, maybe you are interested, what I see atheists does not choosing Christianty as a religion here. Let me expain like that: When a Christian says to an unbeliever, "God has a son", it looks like a myth, like Greek Gods. You lisen to them in patient and strat counting the seconds and wait till he changes the  subject. Brother you know what, Atheist do believe in the Creator. But can't shape it. There is something deep inside telling there is something, but can't, can't, can't shape it. Even you catch a shape what you see is your imagination. Let me explain you like that. Lets say you don't believe anything and close your eyes. Go back in the time when there wasn't time. Nothing, just nothing around. Even your imagination is not there. What you find is nothing. If there is something in the very begining, you can't even call it something. It has no and and no begining. It is beyond the time and beyond everything you can imagine.
Now, if some one tells me he has a son, no way man, I realy believe Creator is beyond everything we can imagine. The angels, even the prophets are not close to him.
Don't tell me having a son doesn't make God less, and he can do anything he wants, than I ask:
Can he create a rock which he can't lift?

Peter

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #99 on: March 07, 2012, 10:56:56 AM »
Now, if some one tells me ......

It isn't some random someone, but God Himself that tells us.

........ he has a son, no way man, I realy believe Creator is beyond everything we can imagine.

You just contradicted yourself. You said our Creator is beyond everything we can imagine, and then you limited our Creator to what YOU can imagine, while rejecting and blaspheming the way God revealed Himself to us.

1 John 2:22  Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? HE IS ANTICHRIST, THAT DENIETH the Father and THE SON. 23 WHOSOEVER DENIETH THE SON, THE SAME HATH NOT THE FATHER: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].

It is true scripture refers to sons of God in the Old and New Testaments. But the following verses use the definite article "the" and refer to the singular Son of God. Just as THE prophesied Son of God was foretold in these (and other) Old Testament verses:

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Psalms 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Immanuel
Old Testament Hebrew Definition:
0410 'el {ale}
shortened from 0352; TWOT - 93a; n m
AV - God 213, god 16, power 4, mighty 5, goodly 1, great 1, idols 1,
Immanuel + 06005 2, might 1, strong 1; 245
1) god, god-like one, mighty one

Confirmed in the New Testament:

Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

PDF tract of these verses with folding instructions: "Jesus" http://www.islamandthetruth.com/christian_testimonies.htm#tract_m4
YouTube of them:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUUXG0z0bPE

The first verse is a Christophany where Jesus showed Himself hundreds of years before He was made manifest to the world:

Daniel 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Some verses from the New Testament:

Mat 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

Mat 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

Mat 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Mat 26:63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

Mat 27:40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest [it] in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.

Mat 27:43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

Mat 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Mar 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

Mar 3:11 And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.

Mar 15:39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.

Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Luk 4:3 And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread.

Luk 4:9 And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence:

Luk 4:41 And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking [them] suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.

Luk 22:70 Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am.

Jhn 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

Jhn 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Jhn 9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?

Jhn 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Jhn 11:4 When Jesus heard [that], he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.

Jhn 11:27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

Jhn 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Act 9:20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
Rom 1:4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

2Cr 1:19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, [even] by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Hbr 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast [our] profession.

Hbr 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

Hbr 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1Jo 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Rev 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet [are] like fine brass;

And, as channeled through the false prophet:

Quran Sura 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!