Quran and Gospels

[Peter]

Personally I think it is perfectly arrogant of someone who knows nothing of Judaism to pretend to determine anything about the principles of the oral law, in this case or any other.

Particularly since Jews are all in such complete agreement with each other! Which are you Dave? Reform?
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_are_the_main_sects_of_Judaism
I inquire of Reform because I understand that some of them are anti-Zionist, perhaps because in the mid-19th century they dropped the prayers for the return of Jews to Israel.
Which - for them prior to the 19th century - had gone along with the prayers you mentioned here?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Zionism#Interpretations_of_Aliyah
Interesting timing since the 19th century is when so many of the false prophets that infected the body of Christ, started their little cults, also just as we were warned through prophesy.

Perhaps you are Orthodox, since you pointed out Jesus said not one jot or tittle has passed from the law, and Orthodox recognize the 613 Mitzvot as the laws that they follow.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_Mitzvot
Oh wait, many of those laws have been rendered impossible to follow - during this new covenant era in which the law is written in God's people's "inward parts" - because Yahweh arranged to have your temple torn down, just as Jesus had prophesied, because His body IS the temple of God in the Christian era.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/matthew_24_olivet_discourse.htm#matt_24_1

[Dave2]

Gentlemen, you have completely misunderstood the whole scenario and my reply to you. I repeat, legal adjudication is made by the COURTS and JUDGES, not by heaven or even PROPHECY. Halacha is determined through established legal channels once the Torah was given to Man. If a bonafide court rules on a particular matter and a prophet would recount a prophecy to the contrary, we follow the decision of the court. Is that so hard to comprehend? Even the URIM VeTUMIM was not used to adjudicate law.

[Peter]

Not hard to comprehend it. We well understand it, as you just detailed it, my friend.
Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, [as] the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

[Dave2]

What do you mean the tradition of MEN? It is not simply all made up. It is an integral part of the Jewish system that I have been trying to explain. How in hell would you know to adjudicate laws without more than what appears in the Torah?! For heaven's sake. Without the midrashic traditions you would have no ancient and biblical historical details either.
By the way what would you call your ecumenical councils of Nicea, Constantinople and everywhere else over a century trying to figure out whether the Christ was two or one or one or two or two in one or one in two?? Now there is something you could call the tradition of MEN!!

[resistingrexmundi]

What do you mean the tradition of MEN? It is not simply all made up. It is an integral part of the Jewish system that I have been trying to explain. How in hell would you know to adjudicate laws without more than what appears in the Torah?! For heaven's sake. Without the midrashic traditions you would have no ancient and biblical historical details either.

Because we understand that what God is desirous of is a heart turned toward Him in obedience. You cannot even see how absurd it is that you would listen to a court that IS NOT MENTIONED IN THE TORAH, let alone instituted by it, than by a direct Word from God. And all of this is supported by a verse that is interpreted to mean the exact opposite of what it actually says. So what you have in effect is a court that points to an oral law that only exists according to its' own word to support its' validity and then says that they can over rule a direct word from God. The fact that you don't see how absolutely backwards that is speaks to your blindness. Those verses speak very well of you.

[Peter]

Gentlemen, you have completely misunderstood the whole scenario and my reply to you. I repeat, legal adjudication is made by the COURTS and JUDGES, not by heaven or even PROPHECY. Halacha is determined through established legal channels once the Torah was given to Man. If a bonafide court rules on a particular matter and a prophet would recount a prophecy to the contrary, we follow the decision of the court. Is that so hard to comprehend?

I and Dr. Brown understand it well.
http://realmessiah.askdrbrown.org/listen/are-rabbis-right

[Dave2]

You are not relating to what I mentioned. You tell em about traditions of men, and then when I present to you the traditions of the men at Nicaea or Constantinople you launch into an unsupported dogmatic answer having nothing to do with what I wrote. Of course there were courts. They were first established among the Elders in the Desert and recommended by Jethro. But essentially the Torah could never be adjudicated without courts, or didn't you ever think of that? How do you suppose the prohibition against theft could be adjudicated if there were no methodology and court system??!!

[resistingrexmundi]

You are not relating to what I mentioned. You tell em about traditions of men, and then when I present to you the traditions of the men at Nicaea or Constantinople you launch into an unsupported dogmatic answer having nothing to do with what I wrote. Of course there were courts. They were first established among the Elders in the Desert and recommended by Jethro. But essentially the Torah could never be adjudicated without courts, or didn't you ever think of that? How do you suppose the prohibition against theft could be adjudicated if there were no methodology and court system??!!

The issue isn't that courts existed. It is that they override the Word of God to make their rulings.

[Peter]

So you listened to that audio in one minute? No. You have no interest in truth, let alone discussion. I'll defer until you do.
That's why you have been without reply every time we point out that the doctrine you defend joins you with anti-Zionist Nazis, skinheads, Aryans, David Duke and the KKK, Louis Farrakan and the Nation of Islam, and Muhammad's followers, in their hatred of the vast majority of your own Zionist brethren. This while advancing the Islamic conquest of Israel, to convert it into another female circumcising, child doing, wife beating, concubine keeping, Christian beheading, Islamic terror, slave state, while you sit back all comfy in the U.S. and cheer it on from across an ocean.

[Dave2]

How absolutely idiotic. It's like saying that anyone who opposes murder for different reasons of agenda are allied. The Mormons oppose murder so does that make you or me allied with Mormons? Buddhists oppose murder so does that make you an ally of Buddhists? How idiotic.

[Peter]

How absolutely idiotic. It's like saying that anyone who opposes murder for different reasons of agenda are allied. The Mormons oppose murder so does that make you or me allied with Mormons? Buddhists oppose murder so does that make you an ally of Buddhists? How idiotic.

It isn't "like" saying anything except you are fruit of the same anti-Zionist tree, and your anti-Zionism is advancing the Islamic conquest of Israel, and subjugation of Jews and Christians to Muhammad's followers. But then you seem to hate those Jews anyway and likely don't care a whit about the Christians fate either.

[Peter]

How absolutely idiotic.

Judged idiotic when you support your claim with such an abject failure in linear thinking that follows?

It's like saying that anyone who opposes murder for different reasons of agenda are allied. The Mormons oppose murder so does that make you or me allied with Mormons? Buddhists oppose murder so does that make you an ally of Buddhists?

YES, of course. It makes you an ally of everybody who opposes murder, be they Mormons, Buddists, or Soviets. Those of us that oppose murder are all fruit of the good tree, of people who do not like murder. That would be good fruit of a good tree. An evil tree are people that do not oppose murder, and would include people that commit murder. They would be evil fruit of an evil tree, directly opposed to the good tree you and I and Mormons are in.

You join Nazis, skinheads, Muslims, David Duke and the KKK, Louis Farrakan and the Nation of Islam as fruit on the anti-Zionist tree.
Judging by the fruit would you say that's a good tree or an evil tree?

Just because you are in the same anti-Zionist tree doesn't mean you have to have in common an interest in genocide of Jews, any more than being opposed to murder makes you a follower of Joseph Smith.
But YOU ARE FRUIT of the ANTI-ZIONIST TREE along with black-hearted people that want to murder Jews, and hate Israeli Jews and want to kill them and "drive them into the sea". Who say "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the jews, and the stone behind which a jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

You readily admit that the vast majority of your Jewish brethren are in the Zionist tree. Others in that tree include not only Israeli Jews but Israeli Christians as well as Evangelicals. Here's what evangelicals do. Perhaps you can list more fruit of this tree for us.

How idiotic.

But as we can see it is anything but. That you fruit the anti-Zionist tree shows what happens when men put their faith in men.

[Dave2]

When you mean putting your faith in MEN you of course mean putting your faith in the handful of guys at the Nicene Council, or better yet "Paul" who knew "everything" based on the claims of a few scraps of paper called epistles?? There's the pot calling the kettle black. My word.

[Peter]

When you mean putting your faith in MEN you of course mean putting your faith in the handful of guys at the Nicene Council, or better yet "Paul" who knew "everything" based on the claims of a few scraps of paper called epistles??

Yet there you are, a Jew without a temple that the Lord arranged to have torn down in the first century, and has kept from you for almost 2,000 years, with the exception of the temple of God in the body of Christ. Jews composing just .02% of the world's population, because the Lord prevented you from proselytizing after the first century because He gave us a new covenant path to Him, just as prophesied by Jeremiah. Ah but you, you set yourself aside as a tiny fraction of that .02%, as if the Lord granted you an exclusive franchise on truth, even as you have abandoned scripture for your traditions of men, and thus wind up running with Nazis, skinheads, Muslims and the KKK - that are all out to get Jews.

There's the pot calling the kettle black. My word.

Our faith is in the scriptures, not in men as yours is, as has already been answered to, on the other thread you ignored it on. http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?t.opic=3238.msg13604#msg13604
Any more redundant posting of subjects, as if you haven't already been provided the answer, will be moved to your spam thread. Quit wasting our mutual time.
You repeatedly pretend we follow the traditions of men, so you can tar us, with what you had to admit you yourself do.
I understand your embarrassment Dave, particularly in light of the fruit that your doctrine puts you in company with.
Do not post on this thread again, until you are prepared to present, who some of the good fruit are, on your anti-Zionist tree. If you dither on it will be sent to your spam thread for temporary storage.