chat with HeathenMuslimGuy

[HeathenMuslimGuy]

Tawheed, or monotheism, is the primary doctrine of Islam. Shirk, or polytheism, is the primary sin, much the same way as it is in Judaism. It is not unforgivable.

"Verily, Allaah forgives not that partners should be set up with Him (in worship), but He forgives except that (anything else) to whom He wills; and whoever sets up partners with Allaah in worship, he has indeed invented a tremendous sin." [an-Nisaa’ 4:48]

Islamic sites, my friend, not Christian.
Perhaps I wasn't quick enough on your taqiyyah.
I guess what you mean is that if someone renounces shirk, and becomes a Mohammedan, they will be forgiven.

[/quote]

It is typical practice in these types of discussions to provide REFERENCES of the sites that you get quotes from, be they Muslim or Christian.

[HeathenMuslimGuy]

Claiming that God "begat" a son with a human girl is obviously a major blasphemy against God.....

Perhaps in the limited understanding of a 6th century desert dwelling illiterate, that you have chosen to adopt.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=55.0

Not to mention the followers of the Old Testament: http://jewsforjudaism.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=146&Itemid=211

Increasing numbers of practising Christians:
"More than half of England's Anglican Bishops say that Christians are not obliged to believe that Jesus Christ was God, according to a survey published today. The pole of 31 of England's 39 bishops shows that many of them think that Christ's miracles, the virgin birth and the resurrection might not have happened exactly as described in the Bible. Only 11 of the bishops insisted that Christians must regard Christ as both God and man, while 19 said it was sufficient to regard Jesus as 'God's supreme agent'" - "Daily News" (British newspaper) 25/6/84

And the overwhelming majority of free-thinking intellectuals including America's founding fathers:
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/thomas_jefferson.htm

Some interesting quotes by Thomas Jefferson:

"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites" –Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782."

"Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus."

"The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ."

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors." –Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."

[HeathenMuslimGuy]

....... in Islam and Judaism. But Shirk encompases all pagan beliefs which associate partners with God, whether the partners are Jesus, Rama, Krishna, the Emperor of Japan or David Icke. The same as in modern Judaism.

You wish it were. Jews and Christians believe the Old Testament to be the inerrant Word of God.
Mohammedans cannot.
Then Mohammedans pretend to acknowledge that Jesus is that promised Messiah, like so many Jews have,  http://www.jewsforjesus.org/ but you reject the whole covenant that He brought, and instead follow an antichrist false prophet. You reject the WHOLE SUBJECT of the New Testament.

[/quote]

Afraid not. Many Jews and Christians explain the scientific absurdities and repugnant morals found in the OT by stating that it isn't the word of God, but rather the "human record of the concounter between God and the People Israel at Sinai. Since it was written by human beings, it contains some laws and ideas which we find repugnant today".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible#Theological_responses

You said that Muslims pretend to acknoledge Jesus as the Messiah. I would like to know what it is that makes you question our sincerity. We don't reject anything he brought. If you think that makes us hypocritical in light of our rejection of the NT, you would have to prove that Jesus was it's author, or at the very least, that he taught the doctrines it espouses. (ie: trinity, original sin, divine sonship, etc)

[HeathenMuslimGuy]

Christianity and the writtings of Paul turn all these concepts on their head, without a shred of scriptural support. It was Paul who aboragated the Bible. This is why we (and the Jews) reject them.

That's silly. You have to reject ALL of the New Testament prophets and apostles and the WHOLE SUBJECT of the new covenant, to follow Mohammed.

No, we accept Jesus and John the Baptist. We reject Paul. Muhammad's teachings were much more in sync with Jesus' and the OT teachings than were those of Paul. You reject the WHOLE SUBJECT of salvation in the OT to follow him. Why?

[HeathenMuslimGuy]

2: Christianity teaches original sin and atonement. Islam and Judaism don't.
3: Christianity teaches the concept of trinity. Trinity has NO support in the Torah. Don't you think it odd that this doctrine didn't appear in the Torah, but in Greek paganism? Check http://www.sabbatarian.com/Paganism/HecateTrinity.html

Don't you think it odd that you believe God has a Spirit yet you hypocritically label others that believe God has a Spirit as polytheists? God and His Spirit counted as 2 Gods?

[/quote]

So the fact that you have a body and spirit makes you 2 persons? That's ridiculous. You make the assumption here that Islam accepts the pagan concept of anthropromorphism found in Christianity, ie: that God made man in his own image. Therefore, he has a body and spirit like we do.

Doesn't the Bible teach that God IS a spirit? Wouldn't that also imply he is one?

[HeathenMuslimGuy]

Didn't Mary become pregnant? How did she bear Jesus, as a full grown man?
Who impregnated the virgin Mary?

If not God's Son, then who is the father?

The same person who fathered Adam.

[HeathenMuslimGuy]

This concept is not only blasphemous to both Islam and Judaism,....

You keep trying to seek shelter with Jews that have been blinded to the Gospels, but you are a GENTILE my friend, without excuse.
Jews have nearly as hard a time of coming to Christ as Muslims. While their family won't kill them like in Islam, their family will hold a funeral for them while they are alive and perfectly fine.

...... but is utterly repugnant to basic human sensibilities. Even you struggle to justify it.

Not a struggle at all. Mary became pregnant purely by the will of God.
Yet even a fool can see that if God had sex with Mary, then she wouldn't have been a virgin any more, would she.
God begat Jesus through the virgin Mary.

1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

1: The Jews at http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/ haven't been blinded to the Gospels. In fact, they quote Gospel verses to try to disprove Jesus as Messiah, as I quote them to disprove his divinity. You mistake rejection for blindness.

2: Beget:
1. To father; sire.
2. To cause to exist or occur; produce: Violence begets more violence.

Which one of those two definitions would you say is closest to how God 'begat' Jesus?

[HeathenMuslimGuy]

According to a recent survey, most religious Jews consider Islam as closer to their religious doctrines than Christianity.

Should this surprise me? Their religion is focused on denying that Jesus is the Messiah. Christianity is focused on believing Jesus is the Messiah.
Perhaps a better question to ask yourself is why you find comfort in the Jews denying that Jesus is the Messiah.

It should surprise you a great deal if you think that Jews and Christians share the same holy book and worship the same God. Jesus said in Matt 5:17-18 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law (Torah), or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." The fact that there is such an enormous gulf between Christianity and Judaism, even in doctrines unrelated to Jesus, should be worrying.

The followers of the Torah feel a greater affinity to the followers of the Qur'an than to their 'brothers', the followers of the Gospels. This is because the primary author of the Gospels was influenced by Greek pagan beliefs that have no place in the OT.
The revelation given by God to his Prophet Muhammad is free of this pagan contamination.

[HeathenMuslimGuy]

Part 2 coming soon. Stay tuned...

[Peter]

Koine Greek was the lingua franca of the first century holy land. Portions of Daniel are in Aramaic, but the New Testament was penned in Koine Greek.

You keep denying Jesus' divinity even as you believe He is the only person ever conceived of a virgin but the will of God.

Even though He declared: Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

What does that make Him? Just another son of God?

The New Testament was penned in Greek because Paul was preaching predominantly to Greeks.
Jesus was a Jew preaching to Jews. He had no reason to speak in Greek to Hebrew and Aramaic speakers.

That's preposterous. Jesus preached to multitudes in many places.
What you are suggesting is the equivalent of a public speaker in the United States addressing an average American audience in Yiddish. Let alone the ridiculous notion that a man, conceived by a virgin, purely by the will of God, would have a language limitation.

And why single out Paul? Mohammedans must reject Jesus Christ and ALL of the New Testament prophets and apostles and the whole subject of the new covenant.

Who gives God his power?

God IS.

And you avoided the question. How could the following declaration be made by just another son of God?

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

How do you explain this?

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: