chat with HeathenMuslimGuy

[Peter]

***Receiving the Son of God the ONLY unpardonable sin (in Islam).***

No, it isn't.

I'm sorry. I didn't realize there were more unpardonable sins besides shirk. Would appreciate a heads up on what they are.
 
Also confirmation that shirk would be constituted by a Muslim declaring that Jesus is the Son of God, and that shirk is an unpardonable sin.

2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

[Peter]

This is why you shouldn't get your information from those silly Christian websites that say the Qur'an commands us to kill all non-Muslims ......

Sura 8:12 I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them

Sura 9:5  But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war);...

Sura 9:123 O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers...

In Indonesia 3 teenage girls were beheaded on their way to their Christian school and their heads left on the steps of a Church.  The note left behind reads:  "We will murder 100 more Christian teenagers and their heads will be presented as presents."

"Once again, women are the targets. In mid-March, rebels assaulted three women gathering firewood and cut off their ears, lips, and breasts."
"Starting in 2003, Janjaweed Arabs, a Sudan-backed militia, have driven 2 million villagers from their homes in ethnic-cleansing attacks designed to suppress local rebels."

"Eyewitness accounts detailing the militia attacks are horrifying. "They killed my 3-year-old son right in front of my eyes," one father from West Darfur said. Since last fall, women have reported more than 500 rapes. Three women said five militiamen beat and raped them last August. The women said, "After they abused us, they told us that now we would have Arab babies. And, if they would find any [more] women, they would rape them again to change the color of their children.""

AP - December 06, 2006 MOGADISHU, Somalia - "Residents of a southern Somalia town who do not pray five times a day will be beheaded, an Islamic courts official said Wednesday, adding the edict will be implemented in three days."
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/great_tribulation.htm

How could anybody get the idea that Islam is violent?

How do you explain the rape, pillage and plunder of the bloody imperialistic conquest of the First Islamic Jihad? Peace and love?

[Peter]

.......and that Allah is the name of some pagan moon god.

Pretty compelling archaeological evidence:
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm
Though there are other opinions:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkrgObVwTSc

Tawheed, or monotheism, is the primary doctrine of Islam. Shirk, or polytheism, is the primary sin, much the same way as it is in Judaism. It is not unforgivable.

"Verily, Allaah forgives not that partners should be set up with Him (in worship), but He forgives except that (anything else) to whom He wills; and whoever sets up partners with Allaah in worship, he has indeed invented a tremendous sin." [an-Nisaa’ 4:48]

Islamic sites, my friend, not Christian.
Perhaps I wasn't quick enough on your taqiyyah.
I guess what you mean is that if someone renounces shirk, and becomes a Mohammedan, they will be forgiven.

[Peter]

Claiming that God "begat" a son with a human girl is obviously a major blasphemy against God.....

Perhaps in the limited understanding of a 6th century desert dwelling illiterate, that you have chosen to adopt.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=55.0

....... in Islam and Judaism. But Shirk encompases all pagan beliefs which associate partners with God, whether the partners are Jesus, Rama, Krishna, the Emperor of Japan or David Icke. The same as in modern Judaism.

You wish it were. Jews and Christians believe the Old Testament to be the inerrant Word of God.
Mohammedans cannot.
Then Mohammedans pretend to acknowledge that Jesus is that promised Messiah, like so many Jews have,  http://www.jewsforjesus.org/ but you reject the whole covenant that He brought, and instead follow an antichrist false prophet. You reject the WHOLE SUBJECT of the New Testament.

[Peter]

Christianity and the writtings of Paul turn all these concepts on their head, without a shred of scriptural support. It was Paul who aboragated the Bible. This is why we (and the Jews) reject them.

That's silly. You have to reject ALL of the New Testament prophets and apostles and the WHOLE SUBJECT of the new covenant, to follow Mohammed.

Mark 15:39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=54.0

Regarding the textual integrity of God's Word:
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=97.0

And the Quran:
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=116.0
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=96.0

[Peter]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tawheed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirk_(polytheism)


***The reason rejecting the Son is the most important fundamental in Islam is that it was inspired by a jealous fallen angel named Satan who hates the Son of God. The EXACT, PERFECT, MIRROR OPPOSITE of God's Word and people.***

Of the Abrahamic faiths, it is Christianity that is the odd one out, with opposite doctrines.
1: Islam and Judaism teach salvation through works. Christianity doesn't.

Afraid I have to put the buzzer on you. Roman Catholics do. Most Protestant religions don't. Personally I believe that if anyone feels compelled to argue this they aren't secure enough in their relationship with their Creator.
Works are the automatic fruit of repentance and salvation.

2: Christianity teaches original sin and atonement. Islam and Judaism don't.
3: Christianity teaches the concept of trinity. Trinity has NO support in the Torah. Don't you think it odd that this doctrine didn't appear in the Torah, but in Greek paganism? Check http://www.sabbatarian.com/Paganism/HecateTrinity.html

Don't you think it odd that you believe God has a Spirit yet you hypocritically label others that believe God has a Spirit as polytheists? God and His Spirit counted as 2 Gods?

[Peter]

4: Christianity teaches that God impregnated a human girl with his son.

Didn't Mary become pregnant? How did she bear Jesus, as a full grown man?
Who impregnated the virgin Mary?

If not God's Son, then who is the father?

[Peter]

This concept is not only blasphemous to both Islam and Judaism,....

You keep trying to seek shelter with Jews that have been blinded to the Gospels, but you are a GENTILE my friend, without excuse.
Jews have nearly as hard a time of coming to Christ as Muslims. While their family won't kill them like in Islam, their family will hold a funeral for them while they are alive and perfectly fine.

...... but is utterly repugnant to basic human sensibilities. Even you struggle to justify it.

Not a struggle at all. Mary became pregnant purely by the will of God.
Yet even a fool can see that if God had sex with Mary, then she wouldn't have been a virgin any more, would she.
God begat Jesus through the virgin Mary.

1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

[Peter]

According to a recent survey, most religious Jews consider Islam as closer to their religious doctrines than Christianity.

Should this surprise me? Their religion is focused on denying that Jesus is the Messiah. Christianity is focused on believing Jesus is the Messiah.
Perhaps a better question to ask yourself is why you find comfort in the Jews denying that Jesus is the Messiah.

Read - http://www.ynet.co.il/Ext/Comp/ArticleLayout/CdaArticlePrintPreview/1,2506,L-3676026,00.html


***Even the Quran teaches there IS ONLY ONE person EVER born of a virgin, BY THE WILL OF GOD.
Then you turn around and deny who His Father is.***

As gratifying as it is to see you refer to the Qur'an as an authority in this matter,.....

The Quran is the inspired work of Satan. He came to Mohammed in a cave as an angel of light, and even almost choked the life out of Mohammed 3 times in that encounter. Mohammed correctly evaluated that encounter as being with jinn.
The Quran is only an authority to those that follow THE false prophet and his antichrist religion.
I cited the Quran here in an effort to help you see the obvious. That God is Jesus Father.

.... it is clear that you get this information from those silly evangelist websites that you frequent, and not from the book itself.
God didn't say Jesus was the ONLY person to be created in this manner in the Qur'an. Adam was also created without a father, and without a mother also.

See how naturally you transitioned into a lie? It is prerequisite.
Adam was not conceived by a virgin by the will of God. Adam was created from the dust of the ground.

That he didn't gestate in a virgin's womb for 9 months makes his creation even more miraculous.

A blasphemer or one ignorant to Jesus' purpose could say that.

If Jesus was God because he had no father, than Adam was a greater God by the same standard.

We can only know about them the way that God revealed them to us. You are simply engaging in blasphemous blather.

The fact that you concede here that Jesus was born through God's will proves that he was created,.....

I make every effort to use the term that the Word of God does. That term is "manifest". Jesus is God revealed to us, in the flesh.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.   2  The same was in the beginning with God.    3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Let me ask.
Do you believe that if God wanted to put on the flesh of a man, and walk among us for a spell, could He?
Is that possible for God or would you say He lacks the ability to do that?

[Peter]

..... as all are created by the will of God. You don't use the word 'begotten' because you're embarrassed by the obvious sexual connotation of the word.

***Now consider the term begat:

1. To father; sire.
2. To cause to exist or occur; produce: Violence begets more violence.

Does violence have to have sex with violence to produce more violence? Of course not.***

If you're saying God is a father to Jesus as violence is a father to violence, then you are concedeing the the metaphorical nature of Jesus' sonship.

What I am trying to do is knock you out of the childlike mentality of a 6th century illiterate.
It is what it is.
God made Mary pregnant with His Son.
God didn't have literal sex with Mary, or she wouldn't have remained a virgin.
You are denying the obvious.
Jesus is the ONLY person in human history that is the result of a virgin becoming pregnant by the will of God.

On the other hand, if God is the literal father of Jesus, then he "begat" him either sexually or asexually. There is no getting around this. Whether or not there was penetration or the exchange of body fluids is besides the point: Sexual and asexual reproduction are animal acts, and as such, beneath the dignity of God.

If God had literal carnal relations with Mary she wouldn't have been a virgin.

[Peter]

***Yet you choose to adopt the mentally deficient mindset of a 6th century illiterate, that put God in a box the size of his own personal comprehension...***

No, the mentally deficient mindset is to think that God cannot create someone without the aid of a male sperm,...

See how frustrating your preposterous notions are? Now you are misrepresenting to hide in Mohammed's mind.

..... so if a virgin gets pregnant, God must have fathered the child.

A virgin got pregnant BECAUSE God made her so, with His only begotten Son:

Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Mark 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, [saying], Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Luke 3:22 ...Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
2 Peter 1:17 ...This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

[Peter]

This reasoning may have made sense in Paul's time, but today it is possible to impregenate a woman without a father and with the aid modern science. If we can do it, then for God it's surely an easy thing.

Why single out Paul when you reject ALL of the prophets and apostles and Jesus Christ, to follow Mohammed?

***It is immaterial who said what, but you don't believe Jesus words when they are quoted anyway, so why pretend to make a distinction?

Mat 26:28 For this is MY BLOOD of the new testament, which is SHED FOR MANY for the remission of sins.

You only have to reject that single verse and you reject THE WHOLE SUBJECT of Jesus and the New Testament. New Testament MEANS new covenant.***

I do reject that verse and i've never claimed to take the modern verions of the NT as my holy books.

(Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT) Matthew 26:28  touto  <5124>  gar  <1063> {FOR THIS}  estin  <2076> (5748)  to  <3588> {IS}  aima  <129>  mou  <3450> {MY BLOOD,}  to  <3588> {THAT}  thV  <3588> {OF THE}  kainhV  <2537> {NEW}  diaqhkhV  <1242> {COVENANT,}  to  <3588> {WHICH}  peri  <4012> {FOR}  pollwn  <4183> {MANY}  ekcunomenon  <1632> (5746) {IS POURED OUT}  eiV  <1519> {FOR}  afesin  <859> {REMISSION}  amartiwn  <266> {OF SINS.}

The Textus Receptus or majority Greek text, the received text.

What on earth do you think the NEW COVENANT is? What is that subject all about? No small matter since that's what the New Testament IS.

[Peter]

I believe in what Jesus ORIGINALLY brought, but the NT has undergone enormous alteration and corruption over the centuries.

Over 5300 partial or complete manuscripts of God’s Word were penned prior to 300AD, in virtually every language that was known to man, that were read all over the known world.
To suggest it was tampered with would require that scribes from Syria, Babylonia, Galatia, Asia, India, Rome, Egypt, Greece, Carthage, Tarshish and Macedonia - to name a few - all made the same mistake, at the same time, for the same doctrinal purpose.

But you even seem to be suggesting that someone went back and changed them all even many centuries later.

This isn't an opinion. It is fact, as supported by many Christian scholars.

I am among those Christians that understand the danger in modern bible versions that are based on a corrupt 19th century Greek text. http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=81.0
No surprise. God's people have been under attack ever since the first century. If we weren't still, then we would have to wonder about what we were doing wrong.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/traditional_framework.htm#cults

Discoveries at Qumran in the late 1940s confirm that the Word of God remains handed down very much intact.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=97.0

***Did you ever stop to wonder why it is that declaring Jesus to be the Son of God is the ONLY unpardonable sin in Islam?***

It isn't. Yet more lies and lunacy from the websites.....

Then if a Muslim confesses that Jesus is the Son of God he can still go to Mohammed's chicken and wine serving bordello in the sky?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=264.0

[Peter]

It's up to YOU to prove that Jesus claimed divinity in the NT.

Mat 28:18      And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

One would have thought that enough, but you will likely march blithely on blaspheming, just as prophesied:

Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

The one you reject is the one that will be our judge:

Jhn 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

This is the BARE MINIMUM that you need to substantiate your claims.

They aren't my claims as the verses above aptly demonstrate.
I don't know if it is because you mess around in details so, but there is something that you don't seem to recognize.

I follow ALL of the apostles and prophets in the 1600 year revelation of God to mankind, through two covenants, as detailed in the Word of God.

You follow what A SINGLE 6th century, illiterate, pillaging, plundering, murdering, child doing, stepson's wife taking, sex slave capturing, slave pimping, bloody imperialistic conquering thief, said about God.   

If A SINGLE characterization is incorrect as bequeathed to us by your own books, please inform.

A false prophet, and book, that are THE EXACT OPPOSITE, of Jesus and the Word of God.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/islam_the_opposite.htm

[Peter]

The fact that you can't do this should raise questions in your mind about Paul's (the real founder of modern Christianity).....

Jesus Christ is the founder of Christianity.

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

..... legitimacy and the reliability of the modern Bible versions.

Not a problem. No need to use them. King James and Greek Textus Receptus work just fine.

[Peter]

..... that you unwisely rely on for your information about Islam. Why not open a Qur'an and find out for yourself?

I have had some fun there. Particularly with sura 56:
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/056.qmt.html

But then not near as much fun as this guy has. An excellent series on Islam through the Quran and hadith:
http://www.youtube.com/user/podremvc

http://www.muslim.org/english-quran/quran.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirk_(polytheism)


***Act 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Thus you accidentally helped me confirm that Jesus is the begotten Son.***

Of couse, that would rely on our having a geneology linking Jesus as a descendant of David. Do you know of any?

Of course. That is how He came as a Jew:

Jhn 7:42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?

Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

[Peter]

I might take some time in posting. I'm sure you understand that i have a life to lead away from this forum, and that my answers won't always be swift.

Take care.

Absolutely no rush my friend. This board isn't going anywhere. Take you time and post methodically.

[HeathenMuslimGuy]

The reason I broke the answer up into many parts was to help keep things straight.
All you had to do was start with the first one and hit the "quote" function on each successive panel, to keep things in order.
Instead we wind up with the same kind of mess that results from YouTube.
Unanswered and dropped points and no idea what answer is connected to which. Why bother coming here when you find comfort in that?

You say you don't have time, but that doesn't wash. If you don't have time, simply quote and answer the first one. Or the first and second one, etc. Quote what you have time for, but don't waste both of our time.
[/quote]

Sorry. Feel free to summarise any points that i've overlooked and i'll be happy to address them.

[HeathenMuslimGuy]

Koine Greek was the lingua franca of the first century holy land. Portions of Daniel are in Aramaic, but the New Testament was penned in Koine Greek.

You keep denying Jesus' divinity even as you believe He is the only person ever conceived of a virgin but the will of God.

Even though He declared: Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

What does that make Him? Just another son of God?


[/quote]

The New Testament was penned in Greek because Paul was preaching predominantly to Greeks.
Jesus was a Jew preaching to Jews. He had no reason to speak in Greek to Hebrew and Aramaic speakers.

Who gives God his power?

[HeathenMuslimGuy]

***It is your mistake. You fail to recognize the difference between sons of God - that is regenerate Christians and Jews - and THE ONLY begotten Son of God. The ONLY person EVER conceived by a virgin by the will of God.

Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Why doesn't Jesus call God "our" father here:

Jhn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.***


1: Read Mark 12:29 - “The first of all the commandments is : Hear, O Israel, the Lord OUR God, the Lord is one..."
God is his Lord as well as ours.

2: When I started this correspondence with you, I challenged you to give me a quote from Jesus in the Bible claiming to be God, or the "begotten" son. The closest you have come to this John 10:30 and John 8:58, which I have thoroughly disproven. Whether you admit it or not, you can't provide a single quote from Jesus to this effect.

What you really mean is thoroughly denied.

Jhn 10:36  Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Jesus simply IS begotten of God.
Whose will did the virgin Mary become pregnant by?

No, disproved. This means presenting reliable evidence and sources in support of my position. Your habit of endlessly repeating the same mantras in response to reasoned assertions can be defined as denials.

[HeathenMuslimGuy]

***The Jews accept the Son of God as the Old Testament verses reveal.*** - Sorry. Rubbish. Show me any modern mainstream Jewish donomination who are waiting for God to "beget" a son for them.

You are looking for God in "modern" denominations? No wonder you can't see Him.
John wrote about a church under satanic attack back in the first century. You think things improved after that?

OK, then show me ANY Jewish denominations, past or present, that are/were waiting for a divine messiah.

[HeathenMuslimGuy]

***Muslims can see Jesus is the Messiah, but then tragically REJECT HIM AS THE SON OF GOD. Purely because of a 6th century self-serving illiterate false prophet that taught the opposite.*** - No, we reject him as the begotten son of God because he never claimed to be the begotten son of God.

That's silly. Did Jesus ever claim to be a man in the flesh?
Was He?

This has to be by far the most ridiculous, irrational argument i've heard yet for Christ's divinity. What you're saying is that because Jesus didn't think to spell his humanity out for you, then he is - by process of elimination - a God?

Have i claimed to be man in the flesh, Peter? I am a God? Look, i even used the words 'I am'!!! I must be Jesus' little brother or something.

[HeathenMuslimGuy]

I'm sorry. I didn't realize there were more unpardonable sins besides shirk. Would appreciate a heads up on what they are.
 

Off the top of my head, suicide and murder, though there are others. I actually think that suicide is considered are MORE serious sin than shirk. A Muslim who commits shirk can perform good deeds to make up for it. A Muslim who commits suicide has for all extents and purposes died an unbeliever, and is condemned eternally to hell.

[HeathenMuslimGuy]

Sura 8:12 I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them

Sura 9:5  But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war);...

Sura 9:123 O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers...

"If any man come to me, and HATE NOT his father, and mother, and wife, and children. . . he cannot be my disciple." LUKE 14:26

"But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence." LUKE 19:27

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn `a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law - a man's enemies will be the members of his own household."      MATT 10:34-36

"He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." LUKE 22:36

These are from the NT. Since you are a prolific Bible reader, i'll assume that you're aware of the OT verses detailing Godly instances genocide, infanticide, mass rape, mutilation, etc.
You will doubtless insist that i've twisted these verses and taken them out of context, I will reply that you've done the same with the Qur'an, and we will get bogged down in history and semantics.

[HeathenMuslimGuy]

.......and that Allah is the name of some pagan moon god.

Pretty compelling archaeological evidence:
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm
Though there are other opinions:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkrgObVwTSc

'Allah' is Arabic for 'God'. We don't have another word for it. I don't know how this myth continues to persist when Christian Arabs refer to Jesus as 'Allah Al Ibn', or 'God the son'.

http://www.babylon.com/define/98/English-Arabic-Dictionary-Online.html

"Allah
Allah (, ) is the standard Arabic word for "God". The term is best known in the West for its use by Muslims as a reference to God. Arabic-speakers of all faiths, including Christians and Jews, use the word "Allah" to mean "God". The Muslim and Christian Arabs of today have no other word for 'God' than 'Allah'. In pre-Islamic Arabia, Allah was used by pagan Meccans as a reference to the creator-god, possibly the supreme deity."

Please make sure that you cite RELIABLE sources. It's ironic that Biblebelievers.org use archeology to support this myth, but ignore/explain away concrete archeological evidence that the earth is far older than 6000 years, that dinosaurs didn't coexist with people, etc.