Re: Mecca - Makkah - In History (perhaps most important opening subject for Muslims)

[PotatoMuslim]

Hello all.

Firstly, I should say that I'm a Muslim guy. I was de-converted one time, but that's a whole 'nuther story. Now, I have a firm belief in Islam.

How did I find this place? I think I was googling some stuff on the history of Mecca and the Kaaba and that's when I came across this forum. Then, I started to read some of the threads here. What was I thinking about them? To be honest with you, and sorry to be so harshfully blunt about it, dear Admin, I think that all these different articles and youtube videos on Islam are basically biased, unsupported, filled with fabricated facts, conjectures, and they are definitely refuted by authentic historical information. And whether you believe that or not, I'm going to prove it to you, over and over again if I have to; that's why I'm here to stay in this forum.

As for the OP in this particular thread, I don't think there is any need for archaeological evidence testifying to the antiquity of Mecca nor of the Kaaba in the first place. Why? Because the high antiquity of them is already historically and unanimously supported by hundreds of academic books and academic sources that we have today. That itself is enough evidence. The opinions and so-called "evidences" of Rafat Amari and other Christian missionaries - whom you use as your trustable authority figures - are almost nothing compared to the consensus.

One important thing to remember is that the Kaaba was reconstructed several times, but it is so ancient that there is no historical record of it's first and original construction. In other words, the Kaaba is so old that nobody even knows when it was first built. Historians and scholars agree on this. And they agree that the Kaaba existed long before Christianity, and they wrote it down in their books.

I spent quite a lot of time doing research on this topic, and then I found many encyclopedias and historical books and sources which all testify that the Kaaba existed from the most remote antiquity, from time immemorial.

So, now my question is, are you interested in reading some of those materials, brother Pete? If the answer is yes, then I will post some of the quotes/passages from those books which testify how old Mecca is as well as the Kaaba and thereby I will completely destroy Dr. Rafat Amari's supposedly thirty or so years of "research." I will post them in this thread once I get all of it ready. Or, I will create a new thread for them if that's what you want me to do. Either way is fine with me.

I think there is a chance that you might even be surprised. But, we'll see.

[PeteWaldo]

[Edit addition on 5-5-13: PotatoMuslim originally posted the above OP as a reply to the thread at this link http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1790.0 but I thought it was important enough to split off on its own as it added some information to the forum. end edit]

Hello all.

Hi PotatoMuslim and welcome to the forum.

Firstly, I should say that I'm a Muslim guy. I was de-converted one time, but that's a whole 'nuther story. Now, I have a firm belief in Islam.

How did I find this place? I think I was googling some stuff on the history of Mecca and the Kaaba and that's when I came across this forum.

We are pleased you found us.

Then, I started to read some of the threads here. What was I thinking about them? To be honest with you, and sorry to be so harshfully blunt about it, dear Admin, I think that all these different articles and youtube videos on Islam are basically biased, unsupported, filled with fabricated facts, conjectures, and they are definitely refuted by authentic historical information.

No problem with being straightforward and honest, in truth, because there is no point in dancing around the heart of matters. The Gospel, through the Holy Spirit, fills Christians with complete resolve as to what to believe. The Quran fills Muhammad's followers with complete resolve to DISbelieve the whole subject of the Gospel, as an article of your faith in Muhammad alone. Since perfectly exact opposites cannot be reconciled, there is obviously no reason for us to waste time dancing around that 500 pound gorilla in the room.

And whether you believe that or not, I'm going to prove it to you, over and over again if I have to; that's why I'm here to stay in this forum.

As a Christian, obviously the last thing I would want is for false information to be disseminated in this forum, since I believe I am being held accountable by my Creator for every word.

As for the OP in this particular thread, I don't think there is any need for archaeological evidence testifying to the antiquity of Mecca nor of the Kaaba in the first place.

But surely you can see that the reason you brush off a need for archaeological evidence is because there isn't any. Just because kids desire to believe in a tooth fairy, doesn't mean that she will magically become real.
Yet even as you reject archaeology for confirmation of your beliefs, other ancient Arabian towns like Yemen, Qudar, Dedan, Tiema, Mada'in Saleh (Al-Hijr), Magan (Oman) and Dilmun are well attested in the historical and archaeological records of Arabia, and even attest to each other.

There is a very rich - and ever expanding - archaeological record regarding the Holy Land of the prophets and patriarchs. This supports the actual historical record that was passed down over generations through the scriptures. There are over a million artifacts just on display. Please browse that forum section.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=68.0

The nonexistent record that you follow contradicts the rich historical and archaeological record of the God of the Jews and Christians that is also perfectly supported geographically.



Yet you believe 7th to 10th century AD provably created fiction, that masquerades as 4500 years of historical record - with absolutely no evidence - while proclaiming you do not need archaeological evidence. Do you understand the difficulty with that?

Why? Because the high antiquity of them is already historically and unanimously supported by hundreds of academic books and academic sources that we have today. That itself is enough evidence.

That is only testament to peoples willingness to parrot each others repeated falsehoods in spite of the absolute vacuum of historical or archaeological evidence. It should also be painfully obvious to you that a 4500 year historical record could not have been passed down orally, by a bunch of naked pagans that venerated 360 idols, one of which Muhammad's followers still venerate today.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2039.0

Where did the parrots that you intend to cite get their historical record of Mecca from? The 7th century pagan "Library of Mecca"?

The opinions and so-called "evidences" of Rafat Amari and other Christian missionaries - whom you use as your trustable authority figures - are almost nothing compared to the consensus.

First language Arabic Dr. Rafat Amari's 20 year full-time study cites historical and archaeological EVIDENCE, much of which is from Islam's own books. You should avail yourself of the free papers presented in the left sidebar of his website, and for you I recommending beginning each page by first scrolling down to the bibliography and consider his sources. Then review the bibliographies of the parrots you have selected to ease your mind:
http://religionresearchinstitute.org/

Maybe this will help you in regard to the value of consensus. A near unanimity of the world believes that our calendar begins the year Jesus was born. Yet the archaeological evidence on when Roman census occurred (along with other evidence) suggests that Jesus was born around 6-8 BC.
So a near unanimity of the whole world is wrong in their belief that our calendar begins at Jesus' birth, including those in societies that use different calendars, that still understand what those who use our calendar believe in this regard.

Here's another exercise in consensus.
About 1/3 of mankind in the world today believe in the crucifixion, death and resurrection of the Messiah, who saves all from sin who have faith in His shed blood. Our belief is supported by a rich historical record, which is confirmed by a massive archaeological record, that is consistent with geography. But even more convincing than that, is fulfilled prophecy. About 1/4 of the Bible is prophecy.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/psalms_22.htm

We believe in the ONE true God YHWH, through ALL of His prophets and witnesses, as revealed in His 1600 year record of revelation to mankind, that His people have followed through two covenants for 3500 years. Jews and Christians share our Old Testament scriptures with complete confidence that they are the inspired Word of God.

About 1/4 of mankind in the world today are filled with complete resolve, not so much as to what to believe, as much as to DISbelieve the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel, to DENY the Son of God, and to REJECT His shed blood - as articles of faith - in Muhammad alone, through his STAND-ALONE 23 year 7th century record. Islam is to the Gospel, as the negative is to a photograph.
http://www.petewaldo.com/simon_magnus_gnostics_ebionites_islam.htm

Either all of the prophets and witnesses of the 1600 year record of YHWH to mankind were false, or 7th century Muhammad was a false prophet. There is no in between my friend. One must choose. Muslims say they believe Jesus was a prophet even as you must reject His prophecies:

Matthew 20:17 And Jesus going up to Jerusalem took the twelve disciples apart in the way, and said unto them, 18 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death, 19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify [him]: and the third day he shall rise again.

So Muslims don't believe in Jesus any more than secular historians or atheists do, because you reject the whole purpose of the Messiah - Yeshua - whose name means YHWH "saves" "delivers" or "rescues".
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm

That is all that matters, my friend. That the false prophet Muhammad filled you with complete resolve to DISBELIEVE the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel, as bequeathed to us through ALL of the prophets and witnesses in the 1600 year record of revelation to mankind, that His people have followed through two covenants for 3500 years.

Let me ask if you recognize the following quote, and if you can guess where I copied and pasted it from:

"My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?"

[PeteWaldo]

One important thing to remember is that the Kaaba was reconstructed several times, but it is so ancient that there is no historical record of it's first and original construction.

There is no historical record of any Islamic "tradition" regarding Mecca, prior to the pens of those that created the "tradition" from thin air in the 7th - 10th centuries AD.

In other words, the Kaaba is so old that nobody even knows when it was first built.

Yet you cannot cite a single shred of evidence that supports your contention. However Islam's own record suggests the Kaaba was built by pagan Arabian immigrants from Yemen in the early 5th century for Arabian Star Family and jinn-devil worship.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1133.0

Historians and scholars agree on this. And they agree that the Kaaba existed long before Christianity, and they wrote it down in their books.

Sorry but only ISLAMIC so-called "scholars" would parrot that, in a vacuum of evidence. The same types as those who created Islamic "tradition" in the first place.

1John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

Nobody wrote any of the pre-4th century fiction regarding Mecca down until the 7th (actually 8th) to 10th centuries AD, and the oldest of Islam's manuscripts are dated long after Muhammad's death. Like this one that was washed and written over.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2576.0

Compare that to Hebrew scribal methodology:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=97.0

The entirety of suggestion of a pre-4th century history of Mecca, was all created from thin air, and put to the pen in the 7th to 10th centuries AD. Period. Islam has no manuscripts that date prior to that time. Nor does Islamic so-called tradition, cite any Islamic record from before the 5th century AD (and even then only fraudulent claims of oral transmission - of what is demonstrably false nonsense).

I spent quite a lot of time doing research on this topic, and then I found many encyclopedias and historical books and sources which all testify that the Kaaba existed from the most remote antiquity, from time immemorial.

On the same "History of Mecca" site you probably went to after Wikipedia (which also contains no historical record because there isn't any) you likely found this page on our site regarding the misunderstandings of an 18th and an early 20th century author. But we live in the 21st century information age, and can easily understand how their presumptions were unsound:
http://www.historyofmecca.com/historical_claims.htm

So, now my question is, are you interested in reading some of those materials, brother Pete?

We are only interested in materials that cite historical and archaeological RECORD that is DATED PRIOR TO the 4th century AD. We have wasted far too much time in this forum with the repeated false presumptions of Edward Gibbon and  A. J. Wensinck (as if two unsupported, and author self-admitted presumptions, could somehow substitute for a 4500 year historical and archaeological record of Mecca) and created Islamic so-called tradition. Please read the many posts in here by many followers of Muhammad that preceded you. The whole reason it has to be called "tradition" is because it is completely unhistorical.

If the answer is yes, then I will post some of the quotes/passages from those books which testify how old Mecca is as well as the Kaaba and thereby I will completely destroy Dr. Rafat Amari's supposedly thirty or so years of "research." I will post them in this thread once I get all of it ready. Or, I will create a new thread for them if that's what you want me to do. Either way is fine with me.

Best to find the threads that have already been posted the same thing you are going to post. The forum search function works pretty well.

I think there is a chance that you might even be surprised. But, we'll see.

I would not be surprised at anything you wish to post, as I have seen the unhistorical "tradition" you wish to cite, before.

Please do not waste our mutual time in here by posting Islamic so-called "tradition" unless and until you provide a satisfactory answer to the following question. Please ask your Imam for help with this one if you need to. Feel free to invite him into the forum as well.

Jews, Christians and Muslims visit Abraham's grave near Hebron where Abraham lived. Muslims agree with the location of Hebron, as well as with Abraham and Ishmael both being in attendance to bury their father Abraham.

Gen 25:9    And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which [is] before Mamre;

Please explain how Ishmael traveled across 1200 kilometers of untraveled, uncharted, unknown dry barren desert wasteland, from Mecca to Hebron, a thousand years before the actual historical and archaeological records of Arabia tell us a caravan route was established along the Red Sea (about 6BC), in time to join Isaac for their father Abraham's burial in Hebron.

[PotatoMuslim]

Please do not waste our mutual time in here by posting Islamic so-called "tradition" unless and until you provide a satisfactory answer to the following question. Please ask your Imam for help with this one if you need to. Feel free to invite him into the forum as well.

Jews, Christians and Muslims visit Abraham's grave near Hebron where Abraham lived. Muslims agree with the location of Hebron, as well as with Abraham and Ishmael both being in attendance to bury their father Abraham.

Gen 25:9    And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which [is] before Mamre;

Please explain how Ishmael traveled across 1200 kilometers of untraveled, uncharted, unknown dry barren desert wasteland, from Mecca to Hebron, a thousand years before the actual historical and archaeological records of Arabia tell us a caravan route was established along the Red Sea (about 6BC), in time to join Isaac for their father Abraham's burial in Hebron.

Untraveled? Uncharted? Unknown dry barren desert wasteland? No caravan route was established during that time?

Nice try, my friend, but the fact is - ALL of that is incorrect - and there is evidence to prove that.

History shows that caravan travel in Arabia is as old as its civilization. It used to exist at least eight thousand years ago, from around 6000 BC to 2000 BC. And people in those times were able to travel incredibly large distances which today might seem almost miraculous to those of us in the modern society who are so used to driving cars on a smooth surface. But, it was not impossible. Yes, believe it or not, they were able to make such long journeys such as by means of caravans, camels, boats, water, etc. That is also how people used to be able to make a pilgrimage to Mecca (known as Hajj) from various and distant parts of the country and even from other countries in the ancient times.

There is a great book titled "Egypt's Legacy: The Archetypes of Western Civilization 3000-30 BC," written by Michael Rice, who is an archaeologist, Egyptologist, and has worked extensively in the Middle East and the Arabian peninsular states and has even created museums in Bahrain and Saudi Arabia. In that book, he writes:

In the latter part of the fourth millennium the climate of Arabia was marginally more benign than it is today. It has always been possible for desert people to criss-cross the peninsula to an extent which seems miraculous to those who do not know their skilful exploitation of so apparently inhospitable an environment. The essential precondition for travel in the desert is access to water; provided the traveller moves from well to well, he will survive. (Rice, p. 81)

A few pages later, he says the following which refutes your assertion that Arabia was a "dry barren desert wasteland" and that they were no caravan routes at that time:

The conventional image of Arabia has tended to be of a wasteland, supporting life only on its peripheries and in the occasional oasis. This is far from the reality of the situation.

The acute climatic changes which overtook the Near East and which culminated at the end of the third millennium sealed the peninsula in a regime of extreme aridity which had not prevailed throughout the preceding period; the climate in Arabia had in fact oscillated fairly dramatically between wet and dry phases over the previous 17,000 years. Recent studies have shown that, c.6000 BC, there was a large body of standing waterway, a lake in fact, in the area of Jubba, in the north of Arabia. At this time also there is evidence of large herds of wild cattle present in the peninsula which were the prey of hunters who left an immense repertory of reliefs and carvings engraved and pecked on the rocks which bestrew the deserts. Wild cattle require large amounts of water to survive, and are the most convincing witnesses to a climatic regime in Arabia eight thousand years ago very different to that which prevails today.

Arabian rock art, some of the images of which are extremely powerful, has been extensively studied. It has been suggested that the techniques of representing the cattle, the equids which were their companions and the hunters who followed the herds, can be traced moving down the peninsula as the process of desertification spread from north to south. This process seems to have taken about four thousand years, from c.6000 BC around Jubba to c.2000 BC on the edge of the great waste of Ar-Rub al-Khali, the ‘Empty Quarter’, in the south. (Rice, pp. 86-87)

And this (quoted from Saudi Aramco World website):

"Most westerners believe that Saudi Arabia is only a desert land with oil wells," he explained with an indulgent smile. "They don’t know that the country was a bridge between the East and the West. We played this role in the fourth millennium bce, and we continue to play it. In the outside world, we should correct the wrong image of our country. And within Saudi Arabia, too, we need to educate people about their heritage. We would like to show everyone—both foreigners and Saudis—how we have participated in the history of humanity, not only in the Islamic period, but even before Islam."

Around 1200 to 1000 bce, the rise of camel transport revolutionized Arabian commerce. With the accompanying emergence of sprawling caravanserais, the oasis at Tayma, in the northwest of today’s Saudi Arabia, became an early, vibrant crossroads on the frankincense route from Yemen north to Mesopotamia and the Levant. Thousands of merchants, joined on the caravans by scribes and armed guards, flocked to this vast palm grove, parts of which were enclosed by a six-meter-high (19') wall.

As a whole, Arabia grew rich on this trade. "Each station on the caravan route was like an oil well nowadays," quips Al-Ghabban, noting that merchants paid the caravanserai owners handsomely for accommodation and food, grazing for their animals, and security. Tayma, and also Dedan (now al-'Ula, 120 kilometers [75 mi] south and west), are mentioned several times in the Bible’s Old Testament.

http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/201102/roads.of.arabia.htm

And this:

The land routes were often littered with the remains of caravans ravaged by raiding tribes, stricken by disease, short of water or just plain lost, and every seafaring pilgrim knew that the sea had swallowed many a boat. The risks often taxed pilgrims to their limits, but this did little to inhibit the remarkably steady flow of the Hajj. It outlasted empires and persisted through war, famines and plagues. The journeys of the past inspired Muslims for centuries and provided images and experiences of real sacrifice, absolute faith and exaltation. The Hajj—or more precisely, the pilgrims, the caravans and the routes that comprised it—became the glue binding together the whole of Islamic civilization. The journey to Makkah has always been more than just the destination.

http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/200401/journeys.of.faith.roads.of.civilization.htm

So, basically, what I just concluded about you is that you were not well-informed about the geographical conditions of Arabia as it was thousands of years ago. Like many other Westerners, you thought that Arabia was just a dry barren desert wasteland which was "untravelled" and "uncharted" and had no caravan routes at that time. However, I just proved how all of that is wrong with the passages I quoted above. If you still want more confirmation about the validity of what I wrote in this post, then just do some research on this. (And if you can't anything that supports what I wrote here, then don't worry, because then I will hold your mouth and I will forcefeed you the same information over and over again until you finally digest them).

Also, another important thing to know is that there was a dry river bed in Egypt called Wadi Hammamat which led to Asia, Arabia, and the horn of Africa. This was a very important trade route in antiquity and it was also used by Muslim pilgrims travelling to Mecca at that time. Read the following which is continued at the link below:

This is the road used in antiquity by the merchants of Arabia to trade with the Egyptians. So popular was the trade route that by the time of the Roman occupation of Egypt the residence of Coptos were more Arab then Egyptian. It was also part of the famous silk trade route with the Han Dynasty in China, and continued to be an important route for Islamic pilgrims traveling to Mecca.

http://www.touregypt.net/wadihammamat.htm

So then, likewise, it is very much possible that Ishmael and Abraham may have travelled on this path also - i.e. through Wadi Hammamat - in order to go to Mecca just like the early Muslims used to do before. Thus, your argument that Ishmael had to travel across 1200 kilometers (or whatever the distance is) of "untraveled" and  "uncharted" territory in Arabia is merely an uneducated assumption. You have nothing to support that.

And that being explained, I'm going to post a full response to all your other comments quote by quote, in which I will discuss the evidence for Mecca and the Kaaba while proving to you that what you insist is "unhistorical" and just "tradition" is in fact historical and that they are not parroted just by Islamic scholars. You will see them once I post it here.

You got me suckered into this debate real deep. But, now, get ready to get grounded and smashed by me because I will not stop arguing with you until I prove how wrong you are as vigorously and persistently as I can. Then I'm going to see how much you sweat and try to squirm and wiggle your way out of your own pile of mental masturbation. And I didn't even get started yet, brother. This was only a warm up for me.

Again, I will post a complete rebuttal of all your comments above in my next set of replies. It might take a couple of days, though, so, please be patient.

[PeteWaldo]

Please do not waste our mutual time in here by posting Islamic so-called "tradition" unless and until you provide a satisfactory answer to the following question. Please ask your Imam for help with this one if you need to. Feel free to invite him into the forum as well.

Jews, Christians and Muslims visit Abraham's grave near Hebron where Abraham lived. Muslims agree with the location of Hebron, as well as with Abraham and Ishmael both being in attendance to bury their father Abraham.

Gen 25:9    And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which [is] before Mamre;

Please explain how Ishmael traveled across 1200 kilometers of untraveled, uncharted, unknown dry barren desert wasteland, from Mecca to Hebron, a thousand years before the actual historical and archaeological records of Arabia tell us a caravan route was established along the Red Sea (about 6BC), in time to join Isaac for their father Abraham's burial in Hebron.

Untraveled? Uncharted? Unknown dry barren desert wasteland? No caravan route was established during that time?

Nice try, my friend, but the fact is - ALL of that is incorrect - and there is evidence to prove that.

History shows that caravan travel in Arabia is as old as its civilization. It used to exist at least eight thousand years ago, from around 6000 BC to 2000 BC. And people in those times were able to travel incredibly large distances which today might seem almost miraculous to those of us in the modern society who are so used to driving cars on a smooth surface. But, it was not impossible. Yes, believe it or not, they were able to make such long journeys such as by means of caravans, camels, boats, water, etc. That is also how people used to be able to make a pilgrimage to Mecca (known as Hajj) from various and distant parts of the country and even from other countries in the ancient times.

There is a great book titled "Egypt's Legacy: The Archetypes of Western Civilization 3000-30 BC," written by Michael Rice, who is an archaeologist, Egyptologist, and has worked extensively in the Middle East and the Arabian peninsular states and has even created museums in Bahrain and Saudi Arabia. In that book, he writes:

In the latter part of the fourth millennium the climate of Arabia was marginally more benign than it is today. It has always been possible for desert people to criss-cross the peninsula to an extent which seems miraculous to those who do not know their skilful exploitation of so apparently inhospitable an environment. The essential precondition for travel in the desert is access to water; provided the traveller moves from well to well, he will survive. (Rice, p. 81)

A few pages later, he says the following which refutes your assertion that Arabia was a "dry barren desert wasteland" and that they were no caravan routes at that time:

The conventional image of Arabia has tended to be of a wasteland, supporting life only on its peripheries and in the occasional oasis. This is far from the reality of the situation.

The acute climatic changes which overtook the Near East and which culminated at the end of the third millennium sealed the peninsula in a regime of extreme aridity which had not prevailed throughout the preceding period; the climate in Arabia had in fact oscillated fairly dramatically between wet and dry phases over the previous 17,000 years. Recent studies have shown that, c.6000 BC, there was a large body of standing waterway, a lake in fact, in the area of Jubba, in the north of Arabia. At this time also there is evidence of large herds of wild cattle present in the peninsula which were the prey of hunters who left an immense repertory of reliefs and carvings engraved and pecked on the rocks which bestrew the deserts. Wild cattle require large amounts of water to survive, and are the most convincing witnesses to a climatic regime in Arabia eight thousand years ago very different to that which prevails today.

Arabian rock art, some of the images of which are extremely powerful, has been extensively studied. It has been suggested that the techniques of representing the cattle, the equids which were their companions and the hunters who followed the herds, can be traced moving down the peninsula as the process of desertification spread from north to south. This process seems to have taken about four thousand years, from c.6000 BC around Jubba to c.2000 BC on the edge of the great waste of Ar-Rub al-Khali, the ‘Empty Quarter’, in the south. (Rice, pp. 86-87)

And this (quoted from Saudi Aramco World website):

"Most westerners believe that Saudi Arabia is only a desert land with oil wells," he explained with an indulgent smile. "They don’t know that the country was a bridge between the East and the West. We played this role in the fourth millennium bce, and we continue to play it. In the outside world, we should correct the wrong image of our country. And within Saudi Arabia, too, we need to educate people about their heritage. We would like to show everyone—both foreigners and Saudis—how we have participated in the history of humanity, not only in the Islamic period, but even before Islam."

Around 1200 to 1000 bce, the rise of camel transport revolutionized Arabian commerce. With the accompanying emergence of sprawling caravanserais, the oasis at Tayma, in the northwest of today’s Saudi Arabia, became an early, vibrant crossroads on the frankincense route from Yemen north to Mesopotamia and the Levant. Thousands of merchants, joined on the caravans by scribes and armed guards, flocked to this vast palm grove, parts of which were enclosed by a six-meter-high (19') wall.

As a whole, Arabia grew rich on this trade. "Each station on the caravan route was like an oil well nowadays," quips Al-Ghabban, noting that merchants paid the caravanserai owners handsomely for accommodation and food, grazing for their animals, and security. Tayma, and also Dedan (now al-'Ula, 120 kilometers [75 mi] south and west), are mentioned several times in the Bible’s Old Testament.

http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/201102/roads.of.arabia.htm

And this:

The land routes were often littered with the remains of caravans ravaged by raiding tribes, stricken by disease, short of water or just plain lost, and every seafaring pilgrim knew that the sea had swallowed many a boat. The risks often taxed pilgrims to their limits, but this did little to inhibit the remarkably steady flow of the Hajj. It outlasted empires and persisted through war, famines and plagues. The journeys of the past inspired Muslims for centuries and provided images and experiences of real sacrifice, absolute faith and exaltation. The Hajj—or more precisely, the pilgrims, the caravans and the routes that comprised it—became the glue binding together the whole of Islamic civilization. The journey to Makkah has always been more than just the destination.

http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/200401/journeys.of.faith.roads.of.civilization.htm

So, basically, what I just concluded about you is that you were not well-informed about the geographical conditions of Arabia as it was thousands of years ago. Like many other Westerners, you thought that Arabia was just a dry barren desert wasteland which was "untravelled" and "uncharted" and had no caravan routes at that time. However, I just proved how all of that is wrong with the passages I quoted above. If you still want more confirmation about the validity of what I wrote in this post, then just do some research on this. (And if you can't anything that supports what I wrote here, then don't worry, because then I will hold your mouth and I will forcefeed you the same information over and over again until you finally digest them).

Also, another important thing to know is that there was a dry river bed in Egypt called Wadi Hammamat which led to Asia, Arabia, and the horn of Africa. This was a very important trade route in antiquity and it was also used by Muslim pilgrims travelling to Mecca at that time. Read the following which is continued at the link below:

This is the road used in antiquity by the merchants of Arabia to trade with the Egyptians. So popular was the trade route that by the time of the Roman occupation of Egypt the residence of Coptos were more Arab then Egyptian. It was also part of the famous silk trade route with the Han Dynasty in China, and continued to be an important route for Islamic pilgrims traveling to Mecca.

http://www.touregypt.net/wadihammamat.htm

So then, likewise, it is very much possible that Ishmael and Abraham may have travelled on this path also - i.e. through Wadi Hammamat - in order to go to Mecca just like the early Muslims used to do before. Thus, your argument that Ishmael had to travel across 1200 kilometers (or whatever the distance is) of "untraveled" and  "uncharted" territory in Arabia is merely an uneducated assumption. You have nothing to support that.

And that being explained, I'm going to post a full response to all your other comments quote by quote, in which I will discuss the evidence for Mecca and the Kaaba while proving to you that what you insist is "unhistorical" and just "tradition" is in fact historical and that they are not parroted just by Islamic scholars. You will see them once I post it here.

You got me suckered into this debate real deep. But, now, get ready to get grounded and smashed by me because I will not stop arguing with you until I prove how wrong you are as vigorously and persistently as I can. Then I'm going to see how much you sweat and try to squirm and wiggle your way out of your own pile of mental masturbation. And I didn't even get started yet, brother. This was only a warm up for me.

Again, I will post a complete rebuttal of all your comments above in my next set of replies. It might take a couple of days, though, so, please be patient.

When you joined this forum you agreed to engage in an exchange. You also agreed not to spam away, and since you have already posted a ton for us to sift through, please do not post more until we thoroughly digest what you have posted. But also after you address all of the points in my prior posts that you ignored.

Indeed you failed to answer even the single question you quoted, though I enlarged and bolded the font to highlight the question for you. No need to post more until you answer this question of geographical impossibility.

Specifically how Ishmael traveled 1200 kilometers ..... in time to join Isaac for their father Abraham's burial in Hebron.

Your own post admits that camel travel began around 1,000 to 1,200 BC which was hundreds of years AFTER Abraham and Ishmael walked the earth.

Please explain. How would Abraham's corpse not have been rotted by the time Ishmael arrived?
Why wouldn't Isaac have already buried Abraham already, rather than waiting around for months for Ishmael? How would Isaac have even known Ishmael was coming, much less still alive?

To get over this insurmountable impossible geographical problem Ibn Hisham pulled a mythical flying donkey-mule out of thin air.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1713.0

What say you?

[PeteWaldo]

Please do not reply to this until you provide a substantive reply to the prior post which contains a repeat of the question you provided a non-answer to.

History shows that caravan travel in Arabia is as old as its civilization. It used to exist at least eight thousand years ago, from around 6000 BC to 2000 BC.

Arabian rock art, some of the images of which are extremely powerful, has been extensively studied. It has been suggested that the techniques of representing the cattle, the equids which were their companions and the hunters who followed the herds, can be traced moving down the peninsula as the process of desertification spread from north to south. This process seems to have taken about four thousand years, from c.6000 BC around Jubba to c.2000 BC on the edge of the great waste of Ar-Rub al-Khali, the ‘Empty Quarter’, in the south. (Rice, pp. 86-87)[/color]

Our discussion isn't about early peoples of the earth, but about Abraham and Ishmael and the preposterous suggestion that they ever had anything to do with a Mecca, that did not exist until the 4th century AD.

As your post admits, by the time Ishmael came along, Arabia was a dry, unexplored, untraveled, barren, desolate, desert wasteland, just as I described it. As your article also admits even the advent of camel travel in Arabia didn't come along until hundreds of years after Ishmael roamed the earth.
So there was no caravan route in Ishmael's day. The desertification your post describes is of course why even Medina (Yathrib) didn't exist until about the 6th century AD, further demonstrating there was no caravan route along the Red Sea until at least the 6th century AD. There would have been no physical support for a caravan. No water. No food. Mecca could only have survived through trade, long after such a route had been established, and preceded by towns like Medina, providing infrastructure like water wells.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medina#History

But when we look at where the scriptural and archaeological record demonstrate Abraham traveled, we find it is in the OPPOSITE direction of where Mecca was eventually established in the 4th century AD - skirting the Arabian desert and within the "fertile crescent" - as per the post that you conveniently ignored.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1790.msg14815#msg14815



Abraham's travels never took him within a thousand kilometers of where Mecca was eventually built in the 4th century AD.

[PeteWaldo]

So, basically, what I just concluded about you is that you were not well-informed about the geographical conditions of Arabia as it was thousands of years ago. Like many other Westerners, you thought that Arabia was just a dry barren desert wasteland which was "untravelled" and "uncharted" and had no caravan routes at that time. However, I just proved how all of that is wrong with the passages I quoted above. If you still want more confirmation about the validity of what I wrote in this post, then just do some research on this. (And if you can't anything that supports what I wrote here, then don't worry, because then I will hold your mouth and I will forcefeed you the same information over and over again until you finally digest them).

But now we can understand, you were unable to understand the material you posted, and how the information you posted confirmed my suggestion that there was no caravan route along the Red Sea, in Ishmael's day.

You got me suckered into this debate real deep.

Why would you make that claim when you have barely even begun to reply to my posts? Barely scratched the surface.
Please start at the top as it is the most important, regarding how Muhammad compelled his followers to DISbelieve the crucifixion of Christ - the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel - to DENY the Son of God, and REJECT His shed blood as articles of faith in Muhammad alone.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1790.msg14815#msg14815

The sooner we can get down to the core of the matter, the sooner you can quit searching in vain, for a pre-4th century AD Mecca. Why do you think it can't even be included in a listing of ancient towns of Saudi Arabia?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Towns_in_Saudi_Arabia

[PotatoMuslim]

When you joined this forum you agreed to engage in an exchange. You also agreed not to spam away, and since you have already posted a ton for us to sift through, please do not post more until we thoroughly digest what you have posted. But also after you address all of the points in my prior posts that you ignored.

So, tell me, Pete, how or where did I "spam away" exactly?

All I did was quote a paragraph from your post and then I replied to it with specific and relevant information and then I cited them. I seriously don't see how that is spamming or "spam away." Ironically, I think you are the one who spams in the forum the most because you repeatedly post links to your own so-called "History of Mecca" articles and youtube videos here and there whenever you get a chance in your replies. Do you think that that is not spam?

Why would you make that claim when you have barely even begun to reply to my posts? Barely scratched the surface.

Correct. I barely scratched the surface. And as I already said before, I didn't even get started.

Also, just to let you know, the thing that initially caused me to register and post in this forum was the ridiculous amount of lies and inaccuracies that I came across after reading your threads. I don't think anything that I saw on the internet angered me more than what I saw on this forum because I simply cannot tolerate anyone slandering our Prophet (pbuh) and especially spreading lies about Islam. And it angers me to know that you are misleading so many other people who come to your website to seek the truth.

BUT, now I am here pal, and I'm here to stay, and I will certainly not give up this fight until you are finally unable to counter my arguments. And I'm here to make sure that you accept defeat and I'm here to make sure that the falsehoods that you are spreading about Islam will NOT be passed on, or at the very least, stifled and thwarted. That is my obligation now as a Muslim, no matter how hard it is. And I will stick to my word.

Please start at the top as it is the most important, regarding how Muhammad compelled his followers to DISbelieve the crucifixion of Christ - the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel - to DENY the Son of God, and REJECT His shed blood as articles of faith in Muhammad alone.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1790.msg14815#msg14815

As I said before:

Again, I will post a complete rebuttal of all your comments above in my next set of replies. It might take a couple of days, though, so, please be patient.

So you don't have to remind me about that. 


And when I get into a debate with someone, I leave nothing ignored. I chew it to the bone.

[PeteWaldo]

When you joined this forum you agreed to engage in an exchange. You also agreed not to spam away, and since you have already posted a ton for us to sift through, please do not post more until we thoroughly digest what you have posted. But also after you address all of the points in my prior posts that you ignored.

So, tell me, Pete, how or where did I "spam away" exactly?

You ignored all of the questions that I asked in my posts. Then you wrote:

"Again, I will post a complete rebuttal of all your comments above in my next set of replies. It might take a couple of days, though, so, please be patient."

Which I presumed was a promise to post even more, before answering my questions, which would be typical of Muslims who come to this forum to advance Islam. Ignoring replies and spamming away without even being able to support what they put in here.
It was years before I finally finally felt compelled to make the first rule for forum members, because too much time got wasted that way.
It wasn't fair of me to make that presumption about you, except that you began to go down that road, by ignoring my questions. Also sorry for the delay but I went on a trip yesterday.

All I did was quote a paragraph from your post and then I replied to it with specific and relevant information and then I cited them. I seriously don't see how that is spamming or "spam away." Ironically, I think you are the one who spams in the forum the most because you repeatedly post links to your own so-called "History of Mecca" articles and youtube videos here and there whenever you get a chance in your replies. Do you think that that is not spam?

That isn't spam, but an opportunity to draw a more complete picture. Surely you wouldn't prefer tiny little bits and pieces like a youtube chat. You made an effort to draw a more complete picture with your post, rather than a tiny little snapshot, didn't you? When I include material like verses that follow, I add a link so you can study further. The purpose of the websites, is specifically so I don't have to keep repeating the material that I have already written in here.

Why would you make that claim when you have barely even begun to reply to my posts? Barely scratched the surface.

Correct. I barely scratched the surface. And as I already said before, I didn't even get started.

And you still haven't answered the one question I asked twice, or addressed any of the other points.

Also, just to let you know, the thing that initially caused me to register and post in this forum was the ridiculous amount of lies and inaccuracies that I came across after reading your threads. I don't think anything that I saw on the internet angered me more than what I saw on this forum because I simply cannot tolerate anyone slandering our Prophet (pbuh) and especially spreading lies about Islam.

How can one of us not wind up disappointed? Your prophet proclaimed the exact opposite of my prophet.

Matthew 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Matthew 20:17 And Jesus going up to Jerusalem took the twelve disciples apart in the way, and said unto them, 18 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death, 19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify [him]: and the third day he shall rise again.

You have to consider Jesus to be a false prophet and I have to consider Muhammad a false prophet. So one of our books lies. We can't have it both ways can we.

The one true God of the scriptures taught me what to believe as revealed through all of His prophets and witnesses, in His 1600 year record, that His people have followed through two covenants, for 3500 years.

Muhammad taught you to DISbelieve the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel, by proclaiming the EXACT OPPOSITE through his stand-alone 23 year 7th century record.

Surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

In other words Islam isn't a religion that teaches you as much what to believe (much of which comes from Muhammad's tribe the Quraish), but rather what to DISbelieve.

Matthew 27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.
Mark 15:24 And when they had crucified him, they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take.
Luke 23:33 And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left. 34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
John 19:23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also [his] coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout. 24 They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm

You put your faith in DISbelief of the scriptures, to follow Muhammad alone. Islam is the only anti-a-specific-religion belief system on earth. You can read a longer version of the Gospel accounts on the following forum link:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1175.0

I asked you before if you have any idea where I copy and pasted this quote from:

"My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?"

And it angers me to know that you are misleading so many other people ......

As I said before, as a Christian, the last thing I would want to do is "spread lies" or mislead people.

..... who come to your website to seek the truth.

I hope you came to seek out the truth too. If so, I am confident you will leave here with an understanding of the truth of the scriptures, which is revealed as the exact opposite of what Muhammad proclaimed.

BUT, now I am here pal, and I'm here to stay, and I will certainly not give up this fight until you are finally unable to counter my arguments.

Your first effort ended in failure for your side of the argument, and support for my side of the argument, that you were calling false. We can see that Ishmael could not have traveled across harsh barren unexplored untraveled desert wasteland, and thank you for informing me that the Saudi Government admits that travel by camel didn't come along until many hundreds of years after Ishmael roamed the earth. That is a valuable piece of information for my side of the argument.

And I'm here to make sure that you accept defeat and I'm here to make sure that the falsehoods that you are spreading about Islam will NOT be passed on, or at the very least, stifled and thwarted. That is my obligation now as a Muslim, no matter how hard it is. And I will stick to my word.

You had better get started. So far, what you posted failed to do so. Indeed it confirmed my account of the impossibility of Islam in light of the physical reality of geography and the history of Arabia.

Please start at the top as it is the most important, regarding how Muhammad compelled his followers to DISbelieve the crucifixion of Christ - the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel - to DENY the Son of God, and REJECT His shed blood as articles of faith in Muhammad alone.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1790.msg14815#msg14815

As I said before:

Again, I will post a complete rebuttal of all your comments above in my next set of replies. It might take a couple of days, though, so, please be patient.

So you don't have to remind me about that. 


And when I get into a debate with someone, I leave nothing ignored. I chew it to the bone.

Excellent! So please start with my first reply to you and do so. It would probably be best if you chop each point off into a separate topic so we can both "chew it to the bone".

[PeteWaldo]

I have some time so I am going to do a more detailed exegesis of your post, trusting that you will reply to my posts, in order, beginning with the first one at this link:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1790.msg14815#msg14815

Now let's look at the evidence you presented a little more closely.
Abraham lived from 1813 BC to 1638 BC. Abraham was a hundred years old when Isaac came along, and Ishmael was born before that and lived 137 years. So for the sake of the following let's say Ishmael inhabited the earth from approximately 1700 -1563.

Please do not waste our mutual time in here by posting Islamic so-called "tradition" unless and until you provide a satisfactory answer to the following question. Please ask your Imam for help with this one if you need to. Feel free to invite him into the forum as well.

Jews, Christians and Muslims visit Abraham's grave near Hebron where Abraham lived. Muslims agree with the location of Hebron, as well as with Abraham and Ishmael both being in attendance to bury their father Abraham.

Gen 25:9    And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which [is] before Mamre;

Please explain how Ishmael traveled across 1200 kilometers of untraveled, uncharted, unknown dry barren desert wasteland, from Mecca to Hebron, a thousand years before the actual historical and archaeological records of Arabia tell us a caravan route was established along the Red Sea (about 6BC), in time to join Isaac for their father Abraham's burial in Hebron.

Untraveled? Uncharted? Unknown dry barren desert wasteland? No caravan route was established during that time?

Nice try, my friend, but the fact is - ALL of that is incorrect - and there is evidence to prove that.

History shows that caravan travel in Arabia is as old as its civilization.

But your own post contradicts your false presumption:

"Around 1200 to 1000 bce, the rise of camel transport revolutionized Arabian commerce. With the accompanying emergence of sprawling caravanserais....."

That was 400 to 600 years AFTER Ishmael.

It used to exist at least eight thousand years ago, from around 6000 BC to 2000 BC.

Do you see the difficulty? Since Ishmael wasn't born until about 1700 BC, overland travel in Arabia had been rendered impossible, for thousands of years before Ishmael, desertification having begun in the north 4,300 years before Ishmael! The trails and settlements of the ancients had disappeared by Ishmael's day. Indeed archaeology is a very modern science, that provides our knowledge of such. And don't you imagine that in Arabia, a trail or a village could be covered even in a few hours, by a sand storm? Let alone thousands of years.

Ishmael and the tribes of his sons lived in northern Arabia and the northern Sinai peninsula - "from Havilah to Shur" Egypt to Assyria bordering the Fertile Crescent - a thousand kilometers away from where Mecca was eventually settled in the 4th century AD. And as your article admits, 400 to 600 years before domesticating camels for travel even began.



Yemen was most likely settled by immigrants from Ethiopia that arrived from the horn of Africa, across the strait, because there was no overland connection between Yemen and northern Arabia until about the 6th - 8th century BC - a thousand years after Ishmael.
However Muhammad's tribe the Quraish didn't migrate to Mecca from Yemen until some time after the 4th century AD. There is no evidence that suggests Mecca ever existed before the 4th century AD. So Muhammad himself was not an Ishmaelite, but most likely descended from Hamites or Cus**tes from Africa.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1216.0

[PeteWaldo]

And people in those times were able to travel incredibly large distances which today might seem almost miraculous to those of us in the modern society who are so used to driving cars on a smooth surface. But, it was not impossible. Yes, believe it or not, they were able to make such long journeys such as by means of caravans, camels, boats, water, etc. That is also how people used to be able to make a pilgrimage to Mecca (known as Hajj) from various and distant parts of the country and even from other countries in the ancient times.

There is a great book titled "Egypt's Legacy: The Archetypes of Western Civilization 3000-30 BC," written by Michael Rice, who is an archaeologist, Egyptologist, and has worked extensively in the Middle East and the Arabian peninsular states and has even created museums in Bahrain and Saudi Arabia. In that book, he writes:

In the latter part of the fourth millennium the climate of Arabia was marginally more benign than it is today. It has always been possible for desert people to criss-cross the peninsula to an extent which seems miraculous to those who do not know their skilful exploitation of so apparently inhospitable an environment. The essential precondition for travel in the desert is access to water; provided the traveller moves from well to well, he will survive. (Rice, p. 81)

A few pages later, he says the following which refutes your assertion that Arabia was a "dry barren desert wasteland" and that they were no caravan routes at that time:

The conventional image of Arabia has tended to be of a wasteland, supporting life only on its peripheries and in the occasional oasis. This is far from the reality of the situation.

The acute climatic changes which overtook the Near East and which culminated at the end of the third millennium sealed the peninsula in a regime of extreme aridity which had not prevailed throughout the preceding period; the climate in Arabia had in fact oscillated fairly dramatically between wet and dry phases over the previous 17,000 years. Recent studies have shown that, c.6000 BC, there was a large body of standing waterway, a lake in fact, in the area of Jubba, in the north of Arabia. At this time also there is evidence of large herds of wild cattle present in the peninsula which were the prey of hunters who left an immense repertory of reliefs and carvings engraved and pecked on the rocks which bestrew the deserts. Wild cattle require large amounts of water to survive, and are the most convincing witnesses to a climatic regime in Arabia eight thousand years ago very different to that which prevails today.

Arabian rock art, some of the images of which are extremely powerful, has been extensively studied. It has been suggested that the techniques of representing the cattle, the equids which were their companions and the hunters who followed the herds, can be traced moving down the peninsula as the process of desertification spread from north to south.

From north to south. Since THE Holy Land of the prophets and patriarchs is Israel that land would have been cut off first. However it really doesn't matter since desertification began over 4,000 years before Ishmael roamed the earth, and was completed hundreds of years before he was born. Do you understand that desertification began - a period of time twice the length of the entire Christian era - before Ishmael?!!!

This process seems to have taken about four thousand years, from c.6000 BC around Jubba to c.2000 BC on the edge of the great waste of Ar-Rub al-Khali, the ‘Empty Quarter’, in the south. (Rice, pp. 86-87)[/color]

And this (quoted from Saudi Aramco World website):

"Most westerners believe that Saudi Arabia is only a desert land with oil wells," he explained with an indulgent smile. "They don’t know that the country was a bridge between the East and the West. We played this role in the fourth millennium bce, and we continue to play it. In the outside world, we should correct the wrong image of our country. And within Saudi Arabia, too, we need to educate people about their heritage. We would like to show everyone—both foreigners and Saudis—how we have participated in the history of humanity, not only in the Islamic period, but even before Islam."

Around 1200 to 1000 bce, the rise of camel transport revolutionized Arabian commerce.

You see? 400 to 600 years after Ishmael lived. So how did Ishmael travel 1200 kilometers across harsh barren, untraveled, unexplored desert wasteland, in time to join Isaac at Abraham's burial? What did he drink? What did he eat? That would be a long walk without any food or water, wouldn't it?

Gen 25:9 And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which [is] before Mamre;

Muslims are still desecrating Abraham's tomb in Hebron as I write:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1306.msg14817#msg14817

Now look where Hebron is in relation to Mecca. About 1200 kilometers away:



Perhaps he rode on Ali Baba's flying carpet?

Gen 21:21 And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.

So Hagar wandered a thousand kilometers across that barren wasteland from Mecca to Egypt, and then back again, with Ishmael's wife?

What were Abraham's wife Sarah and son Isaac doing in Hebron, while Abraham was spending those years wandering across that desert wasteland with Sarah's handmaiden Hagar and Ishmael to drop them off in Mecca? Twiddling their thumbs?

These questions are only just beginning, my friend.

[PeteWaldo]

With the accompanying emergence of sprawling caravanserais, the oasis at Tayma, in the northwest of today’s Saudi Arabia, became an early, vibrant crossroads on the frankincense route from Yemen north to Mesopotamia and the Levant. Thousands of merchants, joined on the caravans by scribes and armed guards, flocked to this vast palm grove, parts of which were enclosed by a six-meter-high (19') wall.

Which they already admitted couldn't have begun until 500 to 700 years after Ishmael lived. This spice route was established around 6 to 8 BC as far as I have been able to learn. A thousand years after Ishmael.

As a whole, Arabia grew rich on this trade. "Each station on the caravan route was like an oil well nowadays,"

Which is exactly why the trip would have been impossible, before that trade route was fully established, around the 6th - 8th century. A thousand years after Ishmael. About the time that Medina was settled.

quips Al-Ghabban, noting that merchants paid the caravanserai owners handsomely for accommodation and food, grazing for their animals, and security. Tayma, and also Dedan (now al-'Ula, 120 kilometers [75 mi] south and west), are mentioned several times in the Bible’s Old Testament.[/color]

http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/201102/roads.of.arabia.htm

And this:

The land routes were often littered with the remains of caravans ravaged by raiding tribes, stricken by disease, short of water or just plain lost, and every seafaring pilgrim knew that the sea had swallowed many a boat.

But it was piracy of ships that eventually sparked the interest in creating an overland route. However towns had to be established and wells dug and trade started to even begin. Like I said, Even Medina wasn't established until around 600 BC.

The risks often taxed pilgrims to their limits, but this did little to inhibit the remarkably steady flow of the Hajj. It outlasted empires and persisted through war, famines and plagues. The journeys of the past inspired Muslims for centuries and provided images and experiences of real sacrifice, absolute faith and exaltation. The Hajj—or more precisely, the pilgrims, the caravans and the routes that comprised it—became the glue binding together the whole of Islamic civilization.

There were lots of pilgrimages to lots of pagan temples. Like the temple in Dedan where they sacrificed she-camels, which a few of the early mosque qiblas seem to triangulate to.


http://www.petewaldo.com/oldest_mosque_qibla.htm

The Meccans went on these pilgrimages even after Muhammad invented Islam, indicating that there were much more significant places of worship than Mecca. They went on these Hajj's up until Muhammad put the kaibash on it:

Quran 106:1 For the covenants by the Quraish, 2 Their covenants journeys by winter and summer,- 3 Let them adore the Lord of this House,

Surely you don't buy into the intentional lies that Muslims fabricate in order to pretend that "baca" is Mecca. Look at the number of times I corrected their bible verse, and the number of times those liars scrubbed out my correction. The Old Testament scriptures indicate the pilgrimage to have been to the temple that God had His people build IN ZION.
What do you think about a bunch of people that feel compelled to intentionally lie for Muhammad?
http://www.petewaldo.com/baca_mecca.htm

Islam began when Muhammad invented it in the 7th century AD.

The journey to Makkah has always been more than just the destination.[/color]

Indeed. Ever since the early 5th century AD when pagan immigrants from Yemen built the kaaba for Arabian moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship and eventually veneration of 360 idols.

http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/200401/journeys.of.faith.roads.of.civilization.htm

So, basically, what I just concluded about you is that you were not well-informed about the geographical conditions of Arabia as it was thousands of years ago.

But now you have learned that what I said has been vindicated by the very information you intended to refute it with.

[PeteWaldo]

Like many other Westerners, you thought that Arabia was just a dry barren desert wasteland which was "untravelled" and "uncharted" and had no caravan routes at that time.

Which is exactly what it was in Abraham and Ishmael's day, over 4,000 years after Arabia began to desertify.

However, I just proved how all of that is wrong with the passages I quoted above.

No you proved me (by way of Dr. Rafat Amari and personal investigation) to be absolutely correct.

If you still want more confirmation about the validity of what I wrote in this post, then just do some research on this.

Believe me, I have. The last thing I would ever want, is to stand in judgment before my Lord and Savior, for spreading false information. Like those Muslim liars engaging in taqiyyah, that try to pretend that the Old Testament scriptures talk about a pilgrimage to Mecca, by repeatedly erasing the very part of the scripture that says it was in Zion.
http://www.petewaldo.com/baca_mecca.htm

It is you that came up short my friend.

(And if you can't anything that supports what I wrote here, then don't worry, because then I will hold your mouth and I will forcefeed you the same information over and over again until you finally digest them).

I want to thank you again for providing even more information, that supports all of my contentions.

Also, another important thing to know is that there was a dry river bed in Egypt called Wadi Hammamat which led to Asia, Arabia, and the horn of Africa. This was a very important trade route in antiquity and it was also used by Muslim pilgrims travelling to Mecca at that time. Read the following which is continued at the link below:

This is the road used in antiquity by the merchants of Arabia to trade with the Egyptians. So popular was the trade route that by the time of the Roman occupation of Egypt ........

Of course it was popular by 30 BC. The route had been established for perhaps 600 years - though not until a thousand years after Ishmael.

........ the residence of Coptos were more Arab then Egyptian. It was also part of the famous silk trade route with the Han Dynasty in China, and continued to be an important route for Islamic pilgrims traveling to Mecca.[/color]

Come on. Even you know Muhammad didn't invent Islam until the 7th century AD. Prior to Muhammad it was Arabian pagans on pilgrimage to Mecca, to worship the sun, moon, stars and jinn-devils. To venerate 360 idols at the Kaaba. Indeed the etymology of the name "Allah" suggests it was the name of the Arabian pagan's moon god.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2265.0

Indeed Mecca could not have existed until long after the trade route was established because it could only have survived through trade. It remains one of the driest places in Arabia receiving only a small fraction of the rainfall that Yemen does.
Islamic history tells us that Muhammad's grandfather dug the well of zamzam to establish Hajj around Arabian jinn-devil worship of running back and forth between al-Safa and al-Marwah 7 times in worship of the most venerated priest and priestess of the Arabian jinn-devil religion Asaf and Neilah, idols of which were placed on those two hills.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1209.0
Even some of Muhammad's followers hated to engage in the ritual because they recognized it as a pagan ritual.

Narrated 'Asim: I asked Anas bin Malik: "Did you use to dislike to perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa?" He said, "Yes, as it was of the ceremonies of the days of the Pre-lslamic period of ignorance, till Allah revealed: 'Verily! (The two mountains) As-Safa and Al-Marwa are among the symbols of Allah. It is therefore no sin for him who performs the pilgrimage to the Ka'ba, or performs 'Umra, to perform Tawaf between them.' " (2.158) (Sahih al-Bukhari 2 Book 26 710)

http://www.touregypt.net/wadihammamat.htm

So then, likewise, it is very much possible that Ishmael and Abraham may have travelled on this path also .........

No it would have been impossible, as your own post confirms.

............ - i.e. through Wadi Hammamat - in order to go to Mecca just like the early Muslims used to do before.

There were no "early Muslims" prior to Muhammad. There were only Arabian pagans, engaged in pagan Arabian worship. Like sacrifice of she-camels at Al-Ula and worship of the Nabatean deity Dushara and such. Or as Muhammad detailed Lat, Uzza, Manat and Allah.
http://www.petewaldo.com/oldest_mosque_qibla.htm

Thus, your argument that Ishmael had to travel across 1200 kilometers (or whatever the distance is) ........

Actually I just checked my website. That's what it takes to get to Israel.
Hebron is 1,421 kilometers (or 883 miles) from Mecca.
http://www.historyofmecca.com/geography_mecca_islam.htm#hebron

....... of "untraveled" and  "uncharted" territory in Arabia is merely an uneducated assumption. You have nothing to support that.

But as you can see, your own post more than supported it. It confirmed it.

And that being explained, I'm going to post a full response to all your other comments quote by quote, in which I will discuss the evidence for Mecca and the Kaaba while proving to you that what you insist is "unhistorical" and just "tradition" is in fact historical and that they are not parroted just by Islamic scholars. You will see them once I post it here.

Just make sure the information is historical, not the poppycock that was all created between the 7th to 10th centuries AD. Historical EVIDENCE from before the 5th century.
Surely even you recognize that no useful oral tradition could have been handed down through a bunch of Arabian pagans that venerated 360 idols - except of course that in which they were engaged.

You got me suckered into this debate real deep. But, now, get ready to get grounded and smashed by me because I will not stop arguing with you until I prove how wrong you are as vigorously and persistently as I can.

I want to thank you for your contribution of even more evidence, that further confirms, the very subject you came to refute, which is this subject as presented on my websites and in this forum. The information on the ancient desertification will make a nice addition to the HistoryOfMecca web site.

The question is, can you be honest enough with yourself, to consider the evidence, and believe the obvious truth that you have helped to confirm? Truth is a wonderful thing. There is no fear in truth. As a person learns more, it only further confirms the truth. It is such a blessing. Why not stop fighting the truth of scripture, history, archaeology and geography, and read the Gospel with an open heart, an a contrite spirit, my friend?

Psa 34:18 The LORD [is] nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm

Then I'm going to see how much you sweat and try to squirm and wiggle your way out of your own pile of mental masturbation. And I didn't even get started yet, brother. This was only a warm up for me.

Thank you my friend, I appreciated the exercise in even more historical discovery.

Again, I will post a complete rebuttal of all your comments above in my next set of replies. It might take a couple of days, though, so, please be patient.

Again I would appreciate it if you started from the first post.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1790.msg14815#msg14815

Like for example your argument of consensus. Even from that basis, the consensus of 1/3 of mankind in the world today believe Jesus was crucified, died and was resurrected, to save all from sin who have faith in His shed blood, because that is what the 1600 year record of YHWH to mankind bequeaths to us.
While 1/4 of mankind in the world today have been taught by Muhammad, through his stand-alone, 23 year, heavily abrogated 7th century record, to specifically DISbelieve the scriptures of the Jews and Christians.
Since 1/3 is greater than 1/4, according to your argument through consensus, you have no reason to follow Muhammad.
Let alone that Christianity was spread by the love of God, through His Son our Savior Yeshua, rather than subjugation through the sword and dhimmitude.
Take for example these 500 Christian men, women and children in Nigeria, that were burned alive in their church by Muslims, for no other reason than they were Christians.



"Muslims are determined to impose their 'religion' all over Africa as well as in other continents and countries of the world. Islam has but one goal: rule the world at any cost!"
"And where are the International Human Rights Organizations?
Christians are burnt alive in Nigeria, a horrific Holocaust right in front of International indifference as denounced by Father Juan Carlos Martos on behalf of the Missionari Clarettiani via del Sacro Cuore di Maria, Rome, Italy." (link to article at United Copts)

[PeteWaldo]

"Abraham was the tenth generation from Noah through Shem and was born 352 years after the Deluge, in 2018 B.C.E. "
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100106142436AA13x7b

This dating would put Ishmael about 800-1000 years before the advent of caravan camel transport, and 1100-1300 years before the trade route was established along the red sea, and a hundred years longer than that before Medina was even established.

[PeteWaldo]

Our conversation did lead me to make one correction in my site.
http://www.historyofmecca.com/geography_mecca_islam.htm
Previously I had said that Christians, Jews and Muslims visit Abraham's tomb today, but in the process of our chat I learned that is no longer true because non-Muslims - Christians and Jews - are now excluded from Hebron, by reprobate self-proclaimed "Palestinians". So I added the following (which will be subject to additional editing):

"His sons Isaac and Ishmael eventually buried Abraham in the cave of Machpelah in Hebron.

Genesis 25:9 And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which [is] before Mamre;

Unfortunately Israeli Muslims, who disguise themselves as so-called "Palestinians" to mask their true identities, have taken over Abraham's tomb:

"The archaeological find proves that Machpela is a Jewish burial place and that hundreds of years prior to Mohammed it had been a holy place for the Jews. Now Palestinians maintain that "Jews are foreigners in Hebron." Also, when the Muslims succeeded in removing almost all Jewish traces from the halls above, only the actual grave chamber itself remained Jewish."

Muslims exclude all non-Muslims - Christians and Jews - from what they falsely claim is an Islamic holy site, even as they continue to desecrate Abraham's tomb. Yet amazingly, the only relationship the religion of Islam has to the Holy Land whatsoever, is Muhammad's tall tale of having ridden the 1400 kilometers there and back on a flying donkey-mule, or "buraq", one night. Here's the site of Abraham's grave today."

I also included some birth dating, and a paragraph on the ancient history, as a result of your participation in here:

"There is suggestion that in ancient history Arabia contained a large body of water, along with several trails, with stone carved pictographs in the archaeological record that suggest wild cattle. However somewhere around 6,000 BC Arabia began to desertify from the north to the south, rendering most of it a vast, dry, barren, desolate, desert wasteland by about 2,000 BC, sealing the peninsula. Because of this, the trade route along the Red Sea was not established until about the 7th century BC. Prior to that time spices from Yemen were moved to the north by ship, until piracy became too prevalent, and an overland route was sought. Thus even the town of Medina (Yatrib) wasn't established until about the 6th century BC."

[PotatoMuslim]

The question is, can you be honest enough with yourself, to consider the evidence, and believe the obvious truth that you have helped to confirm? Truth is a wonderful thing. There is no fear in truth. As a person learns more, it only further confirms the truth. It is such a blessing. Why not stop fighting the truth of scripture, history, archaeology and geography, and read the Gospel with an open heart, an a contrite spirit, my friend?

Psa 34:18 The LORD [is] nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm

I think you're saying that because you know that deep down, you are not a truthful person yourself, so now you're saying that just to appear truthful. You have mastered the art of lying on internet forums and I think you find pleasure and pride in having this skill and that's why you keep doing it. But, it's not enough to deceive me, as I am almost one hundred percent confident that you are disingenuous.

You were using a tactic which I will call "Hey look, your own articles that you posted only confirm my arguments so far!" tactic which, in reality, they don't. You ignored the part where it says that there was a large body of water and that there is even evidence for large herds of wild cattle present in Arabia around 6000 BC which is before the time of Abraham according to your own answer of when Abraham lived. Even after the large body of water dried up, travel to Mecca was still possible because the water was replaced by even more caravan routes. That's when trading became easier and faster.

Also, allow me to demonstrate the ultimate example of double standards from an earlier post of yours in which you said:

First language Arabic Dr. Rafat Amari's 20 year full-time study cites historical and archaeological EVIDENCE, much of which is from Islam's own books. You should avail yourself of the free papers presented in the left sidebar of his website, and for you I recommending beginning each page by first scrolling down to the bibliography and consider his sources. Then review the bibliographies of the parrots you have selected to ease your mind:
http://religionresearchinstitute.org/

I think it's very ironic, and even disingenuous, that you point out a bibliography containing hadith books and other books written by Islamic scholars as if all of that is more evidence and support for your own claims about the history of Mecca while - on the other hand - when you don't want to agree with something, you start telling me things like "Oh come on, my friend, all of that stuff is just Islamic tradition. There is nothing historical about the demonstrably fiction that was created from thin air in the 7th to 10th century AD. Only ISLAMIC so-called 'scholars' would parrot that" as you mentioned in this post.

Let me take another one of your comments in order to expose your double-standardness (from this thread):

The fact that the Islamic historians admit that Asa'd Abu Karb was the first ruler in history to dress the Kaabah is a significant indicator that he was the true builder of the Kaabah.

Here, you are now supporting what Islamic historians said regarding the builder of the Kaaba instead of calling it "tradition."

Well, if that is the case, then I can also use quotes from Islamic historians and Islamic sources to prove that Mecca existed before the 4th century AD and then you'll believe me, right? Furthermore, I can even quote Christian scholars, such as William Muir, for example, who admit that Mecca is one of the most ancient cities in the world.

And what you said about the building of the Kaaba is not only false, but a non-sequitur as well. Just because someone dressed the Kaaba doesn't mean that he is the true builder of the Kaaba. I don't think you're actually that stupid to not understand that. Rather, you are just being dishonest about it, and I'm pretty sure about that.

Read more comments about that in this thread in a different forum. Especially take a look at post #s 15, 19, and 23 which completely exposed your lies.

Here is another one of your comments revealing your double standard and your level of hypocrisy:

But surely you can see that the reason you brush off a need for archaeological evidence is because there isn't any. Just because kids desire to believe in a tooth fairy, doesn't mean that she will magically become real.

Just because there is no archaeological evidence for something doesn't necessarily mean that it never existed in the past. That is simple logic, and I shouldn't have to explain this to anyone who has the slightest amount of common sense in his brain. To demonstrate that with a parallel argument, I will ask you: Do you have any archaeological evidence that proves that David existed and that the Temple of Jerusalem existed at one time?

Whether your answer is "yes" or "no," I'm pretty sure that you know that the lack of archaeological evidence for them doesn't necessarily mean that those things never existed. You will simply go back to your Scripture to support their existence, but when I refer to my own Scripture and/or historians to support something, you will try to discredit everything by saying that those are just "tradition," which is an intellectually hypocritical stance.

And you said that you believe that you will be held accountable by your Creator for every word in this forum:

As a Christian, obviously the last thing I would want is for false information to be disseminated in this forum, since I believe I am being held accountable by my Creator for every word.

But, now the question is, who are you to say which of the materials posted here are false information? Are you even a historian or a scholar? I don't think so. And on exactly what basis do you judge what is false and what is not false? Unfortunately, I think that you are the one who is spreading false information about Islam and about the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and what Muslims believe - intentionally - so I don't think that the Creator will be happy with you.

I don't even think that you are truly interested in making me read the Gospels with an open heart nor converting me to your religion. Rather, you just reply with these long posts because you just want the read-only participants and other readers of this forum to see our exchange and make them think that you are soooooo "right." You get a good feeling out of doing that. And you did the same thing with other Muslims in this forum. But, I am NOT going to let you do that with myself, and believe it or not I will keep refuting your points and I will do everything I can to show everyone who is actually right and who is actually wrong. I will NOT allow myself to get defeated by your dishonest and baseless arguments like you did to the other Muslims here.


And of course, this is only the beginning of a long and vigorous battle (or a jihad, you can say) between you and me. My replies will be getting longer, harder, and denser until you can't handle it anymore. I have dedicated my participation in this forum for an indefinite period of time and now I feel that I am irresistibly stuck with you like a melted cheese sandwich!

[PeteWaldo]

The question is, can you be honest enough with yourself, to consider the evidence, and believe the obvious truth that you have helped to confirm? Truth is a wonderful thing. There is no fear in truth. As a person learns more, it only further confirms the truth. It is such a blessing. Why not stop fighting the truth of scripture, history, archaeology and geography, and read the Gospel with an open heart, an a contrite spirit, my friend?

Psa 34:18 The LORD [is] nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm

I think you're saying that because you know that deep down, you are not a truthful person yourself, so now you're saying that just to appear truthful. You have mastered the art of lying on internet forums and I think you find pleasure and pride in having this skill and that's why you keep doing it. But, it's not enough to deceive me, as I am almost one hundred percent confident that you are disingenuous.

You were using a tactic which I will call "Hey look, your own articles that you posted only confirm my arguments so far!" tactic which, in reality, they don't.

That isn't a "tactic" but a simple statement of a matter of fact.

You ignored the part where it says that there was a large body of water and that there is even evidence for large herds of wild cattle present in Arabia around 6000 BC which is before the time of Abraham according to your own answer of when Abraham lived.

I addressed that exactly. I even added a paragraph on my website that mentions this ancient history, to help keep others from making the same error you did. What you in fact are ignoring is that Arabia began to desertify 4,000 years before Abraham, and as your article put it, "sealing" the Arabian peninsula.

Even after the large body of water dried up, travel to Mecca was still possible because the water was replaced by even more caravan routes. That's when trading became easier and faster.

But your own article states that the advent of camel caravan transport did not arise until around 1200-1000 BC. That was 600-800 years AFTER Ishmael.

Also, allow me to demonstrate the ultimate example of double standards from an earlier post of yours in which you said:

First language Arabic Dr. Rafat Amari's 20 year full-time study cites historical and archaeological EVIDENCE, much of which is from Islam's own books. You should avail yourself of the free papers presented in the left sidebar of his website, and for you I recommending beginning each page by first scrolling down to the bibliography and consider his sources. Then review the bibliographies of the parrots you have selected to ease your mind:
http://religionresearchinstitute.org/

I think it's very ironic, and even disingenuous, that you point out a bibliography containing hadith books and other books written by Islamic scholars as if all of that is more evidence and support for your own claims about the history of Mecca while - on the other hand - when you don't want to agree with something, you start telling me things like "Oh come on, my friend, all of that stuff is just Islamic tradition.There is nothing historical about the demonstrably fiction that was created from thin air in the 7th to 10th century AD. Only ISLAMIC so-called 'scholars' would parrot that" as you mentioned in this post.

It is absolutely unhistorical unless you can tell me how those men knew what happened from a few hundred years, to 4500 years before themselves. Did they study at the Quraish pagan's "Library of Mecca"?

Let me take another one of your comments in order to expose your double-standardness (from this thread):

The fact that the Islamic historians admit that Asa'd Abu Karb was the first ruler in history to dress the Kaabah is a significant indicator that he was the true builder of the Kaabah.

Here, you are now supporting what Islamic historians said regarding the builder of the Kaaba instead of calling it "tradition."

Well, if that is the case, then I can also use quotes from Islamic historians and Islamic sources to prove that Mecca existed before the 4th century AD and then you'll believe me, right?

You aren't reading carefully enough. I say that all of the Islamic tradition surrounding any notion of a pre-4th century Mecca is pure poppycock, because Mecca did not exist. It is unhistorical because the people who invented that tradition were not contemporary to the times they wrote about, and did not have access to any historical record, and I'm sure you would agree that any oral tradition that was handed down by a bunch of pagans that venerated 360 idols would not be Islamic.

The reference to dressing the kaaba for the first time was not pre-4th century, but happened in the early 5th century AD, and could have been collected by people that were contemporary to that time, that could have been transmitted orally. That is what history is. It is collected by people that were contemporary to the times they wrote about. Even oral tradition like from someone's grandfather, that he got from his grandfather.

Actual Islamic history BEGAN to be recorded in the 6th century, or around the "year of the elephant". Much of it is still nonsense, but it's all we've got. You can say it's false about the kaaba being dressed for the first time in the 5th century, or that prior to the Yemeni immigrants building it there was a tent on the site, and you may be right. Why would they make that up? But what you can't do is show us how Mecca existed prior to the 4th century because there is not a shred of EVIDENCE that suggests it did.

Surely you see a difference between a guy recording what he saw, or his grandfather told him about events that his grandfather told him, and a bunch of guys sitting down and creating 4500 years of pre-4th century Islamic so-called "tradition" from thin air, entirely absent any historical record to have received it through.

Furthermore, I can even quote Christian scholars, such as William Muir, for example, who admit that Mecca is one of the most ancient cities in the world.

See what I mean? You want to quote a 19th century author that was writing about, or rewriting, the 7th century. The only material he could have worked from was that created by Muhammad's followers in the 7th to 10th centuries AD. So things about Muhammad, and Muhammad's time, may have had some truth, but if he wrote anything regarding a 4th century Mecca, it necessarily would have had to come from the poppycock from Islam's 7th to 10th century AD tradition creators.
Next you will be quoting 18th century Edward Gibbons false presumptions. Same thing. Or Mecca is Baca nonsense. History isn't created by some guy's false presumption a millennium after the fact.
http://www.historyofmecca.com/baca_mecca.htm
http://www.historyofmecca.com/historical_claims.htm

And what you said about the building of the Kaaba is not only false, but a non-sequitur as well. Just because someone dressed the Kaaba doesn't mean that he is the true builder of the Kaaba. I don't think you're actually that stupid to not understand that. Rather, you are just being dishonest about it, and I'm pretty sure about that.

There is no evidence of any kaaba before the early 5th century AD. Nor have you presented any. The ONLY reason you blaspheme the one true God YHWH, and blaspheme Jesus Christ, and DISbelieve the crucifixion of Christ, and DENY the Son of God, and REJECT His shed blood that He shed to save you, is because THE false prophet Muhammad told you to. The same reason that Muslims kiss the Quraish pagan's black stone idol. Because Muhammad did.

Read more comments about that in this thread in a different forum. Especially take a look at post #s 15, 19, and 23 which completely exposed your lies.

Here is another one of your comments revealing your double standard and your level of hypocrisy:

But surely you can see that the reason you brush off a need for archaeological evidence is because there isn't any. Just because kids desire to believe in a tooth fairy, doesn't mean that she will magically become real.

Just because there is no archaeological evidence for something doesn't necessarily mean that it never existed in the past. That is simple logic, and I shouldn't have to explain this to anyone who has the slightest amount of common sense in his brain.

That is not logical at all. What IS logical, is if there is no evidence whatsoever that suggests a place existed, then it didn't exist. That is applying logic to the problem. That is also why Mecca is not listed among the ancient towns of Arabia. Because there is not a shred of evidence that suggests that Mecca is an ancient town.

To demonstrate that with a parallel argument, I will ask you: Do you have any archaeological evidence that proves that David existed and that the Temple of Jerusalem existed at one time?

As a matter of fact that is some of the latest archaeological EVIDENCE that has been discovered, that FURTHER demonstrates the bible to be a reliable ancient historical record. So as usual, all of the liberals that suggest it was just a story, increasingly find egg on their faces.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2964.0

Whether your answer is "yes" or "no," I'm pretty sure that you know that the lack of archaeological evidence for them doesn't necessarily mean that those things never existed.

An AS YET incomplete archaeological record, is a lot different from an ABSOLUTE ABSENCE of one. Missing pieces, as opposed to pure nothingness.

You will simply go back to your Scripture to support their existence, ........

Archaeological evidence is just one reason to believe in the God of the bible as He revealed Himself through all of His prophets and witnesses, as exactly and directly opposed by an illiterate, stand-alone, 7th century, SW Arabian desert dweller. The truth of the ONE true God of the Bible is also why you have been struck mute to answer any of my replies to you. Instead you dither on. When you joined this forum you agreed to reply to my replies. Why don't you start now?
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1790.msg14825#msg14825

....... but when I refer to my own Scripture and/or historians to support something, you will try to discredit everything by saying that those are just "tradition," which is an intellectually hypocritical stance.

Not at all. The scriptures of Jews and Christians are supported by history, archaeology, physical geography and fulfilled prophecy.
Islamic so-called tradition is the EXACT OPPOSITE of the scriptures, and is an abject failure against scripture, history, archaeology and geography. That's why you STILL haven't explain how Ishmael traveled 1200 kilometers from Mecca to Hebron in time for Abraham's funeral. The reason is it WOULD HAVE BEEN IMPOSSIBLE. You can see that. That's why you are unable to answer.

[PeteWaldo]

And you said that you believe that you will be held accountable by your Creator for every word in this forum:

As a Christian, obviously the last thing I would want is for false information to be disseminated in this forum, since I believe I am being held accountable by my Creator for every word.

But, now the question is, who are you to say which of the materials posted here are false information?

I don't. The scriptures do. I post them here as a warning to those who follow the false prophet Muhammad alone, through his stand-alone heavily abrogated 23 year 7th century record.

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of the world. 15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

2John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

1John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
                           
1John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

1John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].
                     
2Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.   

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

The ONE true God of the scriptures, YHWH, gave us all the free will to either choose Him as He spoke through all of His prophets and witnesses, as revealed through His 1600 year record to mankind, that His people have followed through two covenants for 3500 years, or to choose THE false prophet Muhammad alone who proclaimed the EXACT OPPOSITE of the WHOLE SUBJECT of that record.

Surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

Who filled you with complete resolve as to what to DISbelieve and who to DENY and REJECT.

Matthew 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

The ONE true God of the scriptures, YHWH, gave us all the free will to choose.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The enemy even has you prostrating toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca five times a day - located 1200 kilometers AWAY from THE Holy Land of the prophets and patriarchs. Even obligates you to travel to that idol and march around it 7 times as the Arabian pagan's did - shoulder to shoulder with Muslims - in Arabian moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship rituals.
http://www.petewaldo.com/hajj___umrah.htm#tawaf
Doesn't that communicate anything to you?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujUOZyrnewE

[PeteWaldo]

Are you even a historian or a scholar? I don't think so. And on exactly what basis do you judge what is false and what is not false?

If you would answer my replies to you, point by point, you would see. But you have obviously been too fearful of doing that. Of honoring the agreement you made when you joined the forum.

Unfortunately, I think that you are the one who is spreading false information about Islam and about the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and what Muslims believe - intentionally - so I don't think that the Creator will be happy with you.

You make that empty claim, even as the false prophet Muhammad that you follow proclaimed the EXACT OPPOSITE, of that revealed by our Creator through His 1600 year record.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm

I don't even think that you are truly interested in making me read the Gospels with an open heart nor converting me to your religion.

My friend, I am powerless when it comes to converting your heart. Only Jesus can change a heart, and only if you honestly and sincerely ask Him to.

Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Rather, you just reply with these long posts because you just want the read-only participants and other readers of this forum to see our exchange and make them think that you are soooooo "right."

Don't you think the read-only participants wonder why you haven't been able to simply respond to my replies to you thus far? Wondering why you are breaking your agreement with the forum?
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=35.msg5830#msg5830

It isn't about me, my friend. It is about how you haven't been able to address the questions or points I raised from the beginning.

You get a good feeling out of doing that. And you did the same thing with other Muslims in this forum. But, I am NOT going to let you do that with myself, and believe it or not I will keep refuting your points .......

But you haven't refuted a single point yet. Why don't you start with my first reply to you and answer my posts point by point in order?

........ and I will do everything I can to show everyone who is actually right and who is actually wrong.

You've already gone a long way toward accomplishing that, I thank you and for it.

I will NOT allow myself to get defeated by your dishonest and baseless arguments like you did to the other Muslims here.

The fact that you have refused to answer my replies to you already demonstrates defeat. If you continue to ignore my replies - from the beginning - it will only demonstrate further defeat.

And of course, this is only the beginning of a long and vigorous battle (or a jihad, you can say) between you and me.

We know what jihad is, and chatting in a forum isn't it.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=51.0

"Summarized Sahih Al-Bukhari" - Maktba Dar-us-Salam's page 580

Chapter 2. The best among the people is that believer who strives his utmost in Allah's Cause with both his life and property.

footnotes:
[1] "Al-Jihad (the holy fighting) in Allah's Cause (with full force of number and weaponry) is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars (on which it stands). By Jihad Islam is established, Allah's Word is made superior, [His Word being La ilaha ill-Allah (which means: none has the right to be worshipped by Allah] and His Religion (Islam) is propagated. By abandoning Jihad (may Allah protect us from that) Islam is destroyed and the Muslims fall into an inferior position; there honour is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim, and he who tries to escape from this duty, or does not in his innermost heart wish to fulfill this duty, dies with one of the qualities of a hypocrite.

[2] Of course, nobody can offer Salat (prayer) and observe Saum (fast) incessantly, and since the Muslim fighter is rewarded as if he was doing such good impossible deeds, no possible deed equals Jihad in reward.
http://www.petewaldo.com/jihad.htm

Like the 500 Christian men, women and children burned alive in their church in Nigeria by Muslims.



"Muslims are determined to impose their 'religion' all over Africa as well as in other continents and countries of the world. Islam has but one goal: rule the world at any cost!"
"And where are the International Human Rights Organizations?
Christians are burnt alive in Nigeria, a horrific Holocaust right in front of International indifference as denounced by Father Juan Carlos Martos on behalf of the Missionari Clarettiani via del Sacro Cuore di Maria, Rome, Italy."
"To my great surprise, Facebook has criticized me for the publication of this graphic document as a proof of the Holocaust that Christians have been suffering in Nigeria in the last ten years. According to Facebook's Security policy of the 'social' Network, this photo has been classified as 'pornographic', 'violent' or 'inappropriate' and hence I was disallowed to publish any picture for a week. And I was threatened drastic measures if I insist publishing any document that prove the terrible violations of Human Rights in Nigeria." (link to article at United Copts)

My replies will be getting longer, harder, and denser until you can't handle it anymore.

You are as bad at honoring oaths as the false prophet Muhammad was. Why don't you simply respond to my replies to you?

I have dedicated my participation in this forum for an indefinite period of time and now I feel that I am irresistibly stuck with you like a melted cheese sandwich!

For the 3rd or 4th time I have asked then, why don't you stick to the question like a melted cheese sandwich, and explain to us how Ishmael traveled 1200 kilometers from Mecca to Hebron, in time to join Isaac for their father Abraham's burial.

[PotatoMuslim]

For the 3rd or 4th time I have asked then, why don't you stick to the question like a melted cheese sandwich, and explain to us how Ishmael traveled 1200 kilometers from Mecca to Hebron, in time to join Isaac for their father Abraham's burial.

I should have asked this before, but what I am wondering is, why do you think that Muslims believe that Ishmael traveled from Mecca to Hebron to join Isaac for their father Abraham's funeral? I never actually heard any Muslim say that Ishmael went from Mecca to Hebron to go to his father's funeral. I don't know who you heard this from. Does it say that anywhere in the Quran (i.e that Ishmael went from Mecca to Hebron to attend his father's funeral)? If the answer is no, then I don't understand why this should be a problem for us in the first place.

Also, isn't it possible that Ishmael was already somewhere close to Hebron when he had to attend his father's funeral, and thus the journey didn't take him that much time? In other words, how do you exactly know where Ishmael started his journey from before going to his father's burial place in Hebron? What sources are you relying on to know that information?

BTW, concerning your replies above, you didn't provide a direct answer to some of the points that I made, and I also noticed in which places you got stumbled. I think that is an indication that you didn't know how to answer them.

And trust me, Pete, I will reply to everything starting from your first reply to me in this thread which you repeatedly kept pressuring me to do, and which I promised myself as well. However, it will take me longer than I previously thought. I think it will take me at least a week or two because, apparently, I have to do more research on the things that you brought up and I have to study the Bible more in order to give a thorough and a solid response to your posts. I will try me best to show you that Islam and Christianity are actually very similar to each other, not the exact opposites. And it's not going to be that easy, but I will definitely not back down from this debate until I have finally persuaded you to agree with my points.

[PeteWaldo]

For the 3rd or 4th time I have asked then, why don't you stick to the question like a melted cheese sandwich, and explain to us how Ishmael traveled 1200 kilometers from Mecca to Hebron, in time to join Isaac for their father Abraham's burial.

I should have asked this before, but what I am wondering is, why do you think that Muslims believe that Ishmael traveled from Mecca to Hebron to join Isaac for their father Abraham's funeral?

I have had Muslims tell me that they believe Ishmael joined Isaac for Abraham's funeral in Hebron before they realized the sheer ignorance required to make such a claim. But since you follow the father of lies through his prophet Muhammad, you must consider the 1600 year record of the one true God YHWH to be false, and the 23 year heavily abrogated 7th century record of Muhammad's Quran to be true. DISbelieving the whole subject of the Gospel. In other words you haven't been trained so much in what to believe, as what to DISbelieve, DENY and REJECT. But no matter. That distance to travel, and Arabia having been "sealed" as your article put it, causes the same problem no matter which aspect we consider.

I never actually heard any Muslim say that Ishmael went from Mecca to Hebron to go to his father's funeral.

That's because most of Muhammad's followers are as ignorant to where Abraham lived, as they are to its distance from Mecca, even as Muhammad's followers control, and continue to desecrate, Abraham's grave to this day.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3598.0

I don't know who you heard this from. Does it say that anywhere in the Quran (i.e that Ishmael went from Mecca to Hebron to attend his father's funeral)? If the answer is no, then I don't understand why this should be a problem for us in the first place.

Also, isn't it possible that Ishmael was already somewhere close to Hebron when he had to attend his father's funeral, and thus the journey didn't take him that much time?

That is of course irrelevant, because you are not going to be able to move Mecca - a popular place of pagan Arabian moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship - one inch closer than 1400 kilometers away from THE Holy Land of the prophets and patriarchs. But I'll quote from your fellow followers of Muhammad alone to help you see.

In other words, how do you exactly know where Ishmael started his journey from before going to his father's burial place in Hebron? What sources are you relying on ......

The ONLY historical record we have on the subject, which is ever increasingly supported by the archaeological evidence. Abraham's journey was in the opposite direction of Mecca. Why on earth would he have wandered out into the vast Arabian desert when he could travel in the fertile crescent where there was water, game, settlements and such to support his journey? Please note where the rivers are on this map:



I got my information from the 1600 year record of the one true God YHWH, which is directly opposed to the pure poppycock of a bunch of 7th to 10th century AD SW Arabian desert dwellers, who created Islamic so-called "tradition" regarding Abraham from thin air, over 2500 years after Abraham walked the earth.
Is there something about this absolute matter of fact that is too difficult for you to grasp?
Do you understand it is impossible for you to deny what I just wrote, without lying?
How could those Islamic "tradition" creators have known what went on 2500 years before them?

....... to know that information?

Here's the typical foolish nonsense, of one of Muhammad's followers parroting Islam's tired old lie, in obvious abject ignorance to history and geography:

"Abraham took Hagar and her son, Ishmael to a place near the Kabah; he left them under a tree at the site of Zamzam. No one lived in Makkah back then, yet Abraham made them sit there, leaving them with some dates, and a small water-skin. Thereafter he set out towards home."
http://www.thekeytoislam.com/en/what-do-you-know-about/station-of-abraham-and-zamzam-well.shtml

So Abraham abandoned his wife Sarah in Hebron, and took off with Sarah's slave Hagar and what Muslims believe to be Hagar's infant son Ishmael, and wandered across 1200 kilometers of harsh, dry, barren, untraveled, unexplored desert wasteland, a thousand years before the article you presented says that camel caravan transport began, and over a thousand years before a caravan route was established along the Red Sea (remember even Medina wasn't settled until about the 6th century BC) and then dropped Hagar and Ishmael off with some dates and a "small water skin", in one of the driest places that even Arabia has to offer, and then wandered back the 1200 kilometers to his home in Hebron.

Aren't you familiar with this Islamic lie? I can find you more sources that parrot the same story.
So please explain to us how this is humanly possible.

And remember that you believe this foolishness while denying the scriptures, which record an account that is perfectly consistent with history, archaeology and geography. The fact of the matter is, that neither Abraham, Ishmael nor Hagar were ever within 1,000 kilometers, of where Mecca was eventually settled in the 4th century AD.

BTW, concerning your replies above, you didn't provide a direct answer to some of the points that I made, and I also noticed in which places you got stumbled.

Then please point out where as you move through my posts, as I am unaware of anything other than complete confidence in reply to you. Remember I told you that's the wonderful thing about walking in truth. Everything new I learn simply adds another thread to this wonderful tapestry of the things of the Spirit of God. This while Muhammad's followers are walking in the spirit of antichrist, through the father of lies.

I think that is an indication that you didn't know how to answer them.

And trust me, Pete, I will reply to everything starting from your first reply to me in this thread which you repeatedly kept pressuring me to do, and which I promised myself as well.

Thank you my friend. I spent a lot of time preparing those posts for you.

However, it will take me longer than I previously thought. I think it will take me at least a week or two because, apparently, I have to do more research on the things that you brought up and I have to study the Bible more in order to give a thorough and a solid response to your posts.

Excellent. No pressure on you here. Take all the time you need, particularly in bible study. As you approach the scriptures sincerely and prayerfully ask God to reveal Himself to you and help you understand.
Regarding Islam being the exact opposite of the Gospel I have a site geared toward introducing Muslims to the Gospel, with verses that have links directly to the King James Version for further study of select passages.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm

I will try me best to show you that Islam and Christianity are actually very similar to each other, not the exact opposites. And it's not going to be that easy, but I will definitely not back down from this debate until I have finally persuaded you to agree with my points.

In light of this post alone, you should be able to see, that is not a rational statement.
Why would I abandon the 1600 year record of YHWH to mankind, as revealed through all of His prophets and witnesses, that His people have followed through two covenants for 3500 years - a record confirmed by history, archaeology, geography and fulfilled prophecy - to follow Muhammad ALONE, through his STAND-ALONE heavily abrogated, 23 year, 7th century record that I just proved to you is pure poppycock?

If you disagree, then explain how Islamic so-called "tradition" creators of the 7th to 10th centuries AD, could know what went on with Abraham 2500 years before themselves. Let alone their amusing unhistorical poppycock going all the way back to Adam of 4500 years before them!

Since you must reject the scriptures to follow Muhammad alone, let's look at Islam's own books. If you are unfamiliar with the entertaining fables from Islamic so-called "traditoin" regarding Adam, there is a pretty extensive thread on the subject at this link:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1130.0

Some funny stuff in Islam's "traditions" regarding Noah too:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=776.0

[PeteWaldo]

Did you ever wonder why Muhammad's god "Allah" would make confessing that Jesus is the Son of God, or even praying in Jesus' name, constitute the most egregious - and only unforgivable - sin ("shirk")  in Islam? As opposed to child rape or cold-blooded mass murder, for example, which may be forgiven. Yet in the New Testament we learn:

1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Do you suppose a just God would suggest that child rape, or cold-blooded mass murder, may be forgivable, while praying in Jesus' name would constitute the most egregious and only unforgivable sin?
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/shirk_unforgivable_sin.htm

What do you suppose that might say about the demon that met Muhammad in a cave that he said felt like it tried to squeezed the life out of him 3 times?

2Cr 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Muhammad Thought the Spirit in Cave Hira Was a Demon (DQ1-5) - Coptic priest Zakaria Botrous
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpsWnbApBNw

What Did Mohammed Do In the Cave Hira? (DQ1-3)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNbzevID550

Muhammad Already Knew "Gabriel" Was a Demon (DQ-9)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rk0dQCpglb4

Muhammed's First Wife Khadijah & The Jinn (Demons) (DQ1-4)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZgAgZqhrBU

How Could Islam Allow One Woman To Do this? (DQ1-8)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBp5dyLHlts

Muslim Clerics leave Islam and embrace Christ!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19FU7Yyx4D4

[PotatoMuslim]

However, it will take me longer than I previously thought. I think it will take me at least a week or two because, apparently, I have to do more research on the things that you brought up and I have to study the Bible more in order to give a thorough and a solid response to your posts.

Excellent. No pressure on you here. Take all the time you need, particularly in bible study. As you approach the scriptures sincerely and prayerfully ask God to reveal Himself to you and help you understand.
Regarding Islam being the exact opposite of the Gospel I have a site geared toward introducing Muslims to the Gospel, with verses that have links directly to the King James Version for further study of select passages.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm

Thank you for your patience, Pete. I might refrain from posting in this forum for an unspecified period of time, but don't worry about that because I will definitely come back here to post my replies to you as soon as I have put all my thoughts together. You gave me a lot of things to investigate and/or go through, but I will try my best to get to the truth of the matter and to reply to you as much as I can, as honestly as I can, and as many times as I have to. I will not run from your questions just like a slave will not run away from his master. I will do what I had promised to do.

That being said, I want to ask you something about yourself if you don't mind answering, which is, what religion did you grow up with? In other words, were you at first a Muslim, Christian, Jew, Hindu, or what? I am just interested to know.

Also, did your belief in Christianity start with some kind of a spiritual experience that occurred in your life at one time, or is it something that you came to believe mainly after years of research, Bible reading, and historical discovery? I don't know, but from our discussion in this thread so far, I am guessing it's the latter, but I could be wrong. Afterall, each person's story is different.

[PeteWaldo]

However, it will take me longer than I previously thought. I think it will take me at least a week or two because, apparently, I have to do more research on the things that you brought up and I have to study the Bible more in order to give a thorough and a solid response to your posts.

Excellent. No pressure on you here. Take all the time you need, particularly in bible study. As you approach the scriptures sincerely and prayerfully ask God to reveal Himself to you and help you understand.
Regarding Islam being the exact opposite of the Gospel I have a site geared toward introducing Muslims to the Gospel, with verses that have links directly to the King James Version for further study of select passages.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm

Thank you for your patience, Pete. I might refrain from posting in this forum for an unspecified period of time, but don't worry about that because I will definitely come back here to post my replies to you as soon as I have put all my thoughts together. You gave me a lot of things to investigate and/or go through, but I will try my best to get to the truth of the matter and to reply to you as much as I can, as honestly as I can, and as many times as I have to. I will not run from your questions just like a slave will not run away from his master. I will do what I had promised to do.

That being said, I want to ask you something about yourself if you don't mind answering, which is, what religion did you grow up with?

I don't mind at all, my friend.

In other words, were you at first a Muslim, Christian, Jew, Hindu, or what? I am just interested to know.

As a child I grew up attending the Presbyterian Church. However my parents, and thus my, attendance trailed off in my later childhood and teens. Then through college, and after, I lived for, and of, and in, the world, and did not attend church (except for a few special occasions) until I was in my forties. And then only to "expose" our kids to "church". My wife having been raised Roman Catholic and attending Catholic girl's school etc. (though also a backslider), we settled on what seemed to be a compromise between the two, on a local Episcopal Church, that had, what seemed at the time, to be a fairly charismatic and evangelical pastor.

Also, did your belief in Christianity start with some kind of a spiritual experience that occurred in your life at one time, or is it something that you came to believe mainly after years of research, Bible reading, and historical discovery?

A person can't enter into a relationship with Jesus Christ with our heads. We can only receive Christ, and He us, when we are ready to open our hearts:

Psalms 34:18 The LORD [is] nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Indeed the only way a person can see the kingdom of God is if we are born again:

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=3&t=KJV#3

I don't know, but from our discussion in this thread so far, I am guessing it's the latter, but I could be wrong. Afterall, each person's story is different.

In my early 40s I had some business trips out of town, and every now and then on Sunday morning I would catch a guy named Jack Van Impe on TV. He was a futurist pastor. At the time I didn't even have any idea that there were more than one interpretation of the figurative language of dreams and visions in prophecy.

Anyway, our kids were getting a little older and so this was when I thought we should maybe expose them to church. While we were going through the routine of church attendance, I knew something was missing, and the Lord kept knocking harder and harder on my heart. As time went on, the ECUSA wound up ordaining a homosexual as Bishop, which today I realize is just part of the apostasy or "falling away" that was prophesied for the institutional "church". This apostasy has made it very difficult, particularly for non-Christians, to understand just what and where the church really is. I was very outspoken on the matter of the ordination, and the day they confirmed the nomination of that Bishop I left. The next week I wound up wandering into a Calvary Chapel. A couple of months later, I surrendered my life to the Lord, and was born again and saved by the blood of the Lamb of God.

Over the next year or two I uploaded, first a site exposing the ECUSA to vent my frustration, because that ordination was like a mugging in a dark alley for the vast majority of parishioners, and it somewhat scattered my family. The ECUSA has been dying, ever since they made that last, in a series of errors. After I was born again, I was frustrated that the Lord was not calling me more into His service, but didn't realize I had some serial sin issues to take care of first. I was beginning to go through the process of "sanctification", which will continue for the rest of my life. I was rebelling without realizing it, and Satan was working overtime to reclaim me.

Meanwhile I had been increasingly teaching futurist eschatology on the internet, but some questions kept gnawing at me, regarding a rebuilt temple and such. We had some Jewish friends, some of whose lives revolve around our God YHWH as He revealed Himself to His people, through the Old Testament scriptures, and these folks lives were centered around their synagogues and faith based communities. I couldn't imagine the Lord would turn His back on His faithful people, with whom He had declared everlasting covenants, through the seed of Isaac. So one day I asked the Lord right out loud to please help me understand the status of Jews in the Christian era. The question left my mind almost as soon as I had asked it, yet it didn't leave my Lord and Savior's mind. A couple of weeks after I had asked, I received a very specific answer, to my very specific question, and simultaneously a powerful calling, and have been in ministry full-time ever since.

I have been driven ever deeper into the scriptures, and the things of the Spirit of God, particularly by inviting people to push me further, by encouraging them to ask questions of me online, prompting me to come up with answers to questions, to which I did not know the answers. This has also given me an opportunity to understand what others believe, and why, from both inside the "church", as well as outside.

I think the most important pages I have for you to consider, in order, are:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm
And the following page regarding why I asked if you knew where I copy and pasted this verse from: "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/psalms_22.htm
Then perhaps the home page of that site:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/index.htm
If you have ever been exposed to Ahmed Deedat's foolishness it might be helpful to watch the video on this web page:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/first_epistle_john.htm

May God bless you my friend, and lead us both, in all truth.
Since Jesus IS truth, the only way I can serve Him, is in ALL truth:

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FelW46AGu4

[PeteWaldo]

And trust me, Pete, I will reply to everything starting from your first reply to me in this thread which you repeatedly kept pressuring me to do, and which I promised myself as well. However, it will take me longer than I previously thought. I think it will take me at least a week or two because, apparently, I have to do more research on the things that you brought up and I have to study the Bible more in order to give a thorough and a solid response to your posts.

You have been studying for a couple of weeks now, and there is no doubt in my mind, that you were absolutely sincere in what I have quoted. Please do not construe this to be an effort to push you into a reply whatsoever, or to cause you to carelessly hasten your study. But there is one point that I think deserves emphasizing. What you have embarked on isn't a mission to simply decide whether you want to believe something or disbelieve something. Like Hinduism or Buddhism.

Yours is a mission to CHOOSE WHICH to believe. To make a choice BETWEEN the 23 year 7th century AD record of recitations of Muhammad from over 500 years after the scriptures were closed, as embellished by his followers in the 7th through the 10th centuries, which is revealed as DIRECTLY OPPOSED - as the EXACT OPPOSITE of the Gospel.

Or to choose the 1600 year record of the God of the bible YHWH, as revealed through ALL of His prophets and witnesses, that His people have followed through two covenants for 3500 years. A 1600 year record that is ever increasingly revealed through ARCHAEOLOGY, to be a reliable record of ancient HISTORY. A record the veracity of which is also proven through FULFILLED bible PROPHECY, including the same prophesies that bring so many Jews into relationship with Yeshua - Jesus Christ.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/psalms_22.htm
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/isaiah_53.htm
A record that is perfectly sound in the light of PHYSICAL GEOGRAPHY of the area of the Holy Land of the prophets and patriarchs.

Here's how the scriptures close: Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Please also note that no amount of knowledge about any subject has ever saved anybody.

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.