Author Topic: Muhammad's Follower's Rape and Sexual Enslavement of Prisoners  (Read 7754 times)

PeteWaldo

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Muhammad's Follower's Rape and Sexual Enslavement of Prisoners
« on: February 05, 2014, 02:12:01 AM »
Redundant posts were collected and consolidated in this thread. Then retitled.

Covetousness ---> Muhammad took wives in ways that were not allowed for ANY other believer... Oh, and he wrote the rules for that, too. (Sura 33)
Lying ---> Muhamad lied to his wives (Sura 66)
Theft ---> Caravan Raids http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/muhammad/myths-mu-raid-caravans.htm
Adultery ---> See Covetousness
Murder ---> See Theft

and on and on

You serve the lawless one.

Thats your interpretation, your opinion, your conjecture.....

Far from conjecture, it is how the false prophet Muhammad is revealed in Islam's own books. Now since you falsely accused me, of false accusation, I am going to require you answer the following, in regard to my truthful accusations.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1905.msg16181#msg16181

Let's start with prisoner rape.

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: We got female captives in the war booty and we used to do coitus interruptus with them. So we asked Allah's Apostle about it and he said, "Do you really do that?" repeating the question thrice, "There is no soul that is destined to exist but will come into existence, till the Day of Resurrection."  (Book #62, Hadith #137)

Plenty more such verses where that came from.
http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=coitus&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all

So Muj, did the Muhammadans RAPE the women of the Jewish tribes of Medina, or do you believe the little girls and women of the Banu Qurayza DESIRED to have sex with the very men responsible for beheading their sons, husbands, brothers, fathers and grandfathers and the rape of their little daughters, sisters and mothers?
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm#banu_qurayza

Why don't you ask you wife if someone beheaded her son, husband and father and raped her sister and little daughter,  if she would desire to have sex with one of the perpetrators.

Mujaheed

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Re: Re: Question for Mujaheed
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2014, 08:29:33 AM »
Covetousness ---> Muhammad took wives in ways that were not allowed for ANY other believer... Oh, and he wrote the rules for that, too. (Sura 33)
Lying ---> Muhamad lied to his wives (Sura 66)
Theft ---> Caravan Raids http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/muhammad/myths-mu-raid-caravans.htm
Adultery ---> See Covetousness
Murder ---> See Theft

and on and on

You serve the lawless one.

Thats your interpretation, your opinion, your conjecture.....

Far from conjecture, it is how the false prophet Muhammad is revealed in Islam's own books. Now since you falsely accused me, of false accusation, I am going to require you answer the following, in regard to my truthful accusations.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1905.msg16181#msg16181

Let's start with prisoner rape.

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: We got female captives in the war booty and we used to do coitus interruptus with them. So we asked Allah's Apostle about it and he said, "Do you really do that?" repeating the question thrice, "There is no soul that is destined to exist but will come into existence, till the Day of Resurrection."  (Book #62, Hadith #137)

Plenty more such verses where that came from.
http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=coitus&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all

So Muj, did the Muhammadans RAPE the women of the Jewish tribes of Medina, or do you believe the little girls and women of the Banu Qurayza DESIRED to have sex with the very men responsible for beheading their sons, husbands, brothers, fathers and grandfathers and the rape of their little daughters, sisters and mothers?
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm#banu_qurayza

Why don't you ask you wife if someone beheaded her son, husband and father and raped her sister and little daughter,  if she would desire to have sex with one of the perpetrators.

I DONT BELIEVE THE STORY AND HERE IS ONE OF THE EXAMPLES WHY I DONT BELIEVE THE FABRICATION. [admin added this to this post from your redundant post]

NO MUHAMMAD DID NOT RAPE OR MURDER. THATS YOUR OPINION ON A DOUBTFUL MATTER

Heres proof:

NEW LIGHT ON THE STORY OF BANU QURAYZA AND THE
 
JEWS OF MEDINA
 
By W. N. ARAFAT
 
From Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and Ireland,
(1976), pp. 100-107.
 
 
IT IS WELL KNOWN THAT at the advent of Islam there were three Jewish tribes who lived in Yathrib (later Medina), as well as other Jewish settlements further to the north, the most important of which were Khaybar and Fadak. It is also generally accepted that at first the Prophet Muhammad hoped that the Jews of Yathrib, as followers of a divine religion, would show understanding of the new monotheistic religion, Islam. However, as soon as these tribes realized that Islam was being firmly established and gaining power, they adopted an actively hostile attitude, and the final result of the struggle was the disappearance of these Jewish communities from Arabia proper.
The biographers of the Prophet, followed by later historians, tell us that Banu Qaynuqa.,1 and later Banu al-Nadir,2 provoked the Muslims, were besieged, and in turn agreed to surrender and were allowed to depart, taking with them all their transportable possessions. Later on Khaybar3 and Fadak4 were evacuated. According to Ibn Ishaq in the Sira,5 the third of the Jewish tribes, Banu Qurayza, sided with the Quras**tes and their allies, who made an unsuccessful attack on Medina in an attempt to destroy Islam. This, the most serious challenge to Islam, failed, and the Banu Qurayza were in turn besieged by the Prophet. Like Banu al-Nadir, in time they surrendered, but unlike the Banu al-Nadir, they were subjected to the arbitration of Sa'd b. Mu'adh, a member of the Aws tribe, allies of Qurayza. He ruled that the grown-up males should be put to death and the women and children subjected to slavery. Consequentiy, trenches were dug in the market-place in Medina, and the men of Qurayza were brought out in groups and their necks were struck.6 Estimates of those killed vary from 400 to 900.

On examination, details of the story can he challenged. It can be demonstrated that the assertion that 600 or 800 or 9007 men of Banu Qurayza were put to death in cold blood can not be true; that it is a later invention; and that it has its source in Jewish traditions. Indeed the source of the details in earlier Jewish history can be pointed out with surprising accuracy.

The Arabic sources will now be surveyed, and the contribution of their Jewish informants will be discussed. The credibility of the details will then be assessed, and the prototype in earlier Jewish history pin-pointed.

The earliest work that we have, with the widest range of details, is Ibn Ishaq's Sira, his biography of the Prophet. It is also the longest and the most widely quoted. Later historians draw, and in most cases depend on him.8 But Ibn Ishaq died in 151 A.H., i.e. 145 years after the event in question. Later historians simply take his version of the story, omitting more or less of the detail, and overlooking his uncertain list of authorities. They generally abbreviate the story, which appears just as one more event to report. In most cases their interest seems to end there. Some of them indicate that they are not really convinced, but they are not prepared to take further trouble. One authority, Ibn Hajar, however, denounces this story and the other related ones as "odd tales".9 A contemporary of Ibn Ishaq, Malik,10 the jurist, denounces Ibn Ishaq outright as "a liar"11 and "an impostor"12 just for transmitting such stories.

It must be remembered that historians and authors of the Prophet's biography did not apply the strict rules of the "traditionists". They did not always provide a chain of authorities, each of whom had to be verified as trustworthy and as certain or likely to have transmitted his report directly from his informant, and so on. The attitude towards biographical details and towards the early events of Islam was far less meticulous than their attitude to the Prophet's traditions, or indeed to any material relevant to jurisprudence. Indeed Ibn Ishaq's account of the siege of Medina and the fall of the Banu Qurayza is pieced together by him from information given by a variety of persons he names, including Muslim descendants of the Jews of Qurayza.

Against these late and uncertain sources must be placed the only contemporary and entirely authentic source, the Qur'an. There, the reference in Sura XXXIII, 26 is very brief:

"He caused those of the People of the Book who helped them (i.e. the Quraysh) to come out of their forts. Some you killed, some you took prisoner." There is no reference to numbers.

Ibn Ishaq sets out his direct sources as he opens the relevant chapter on the siege of Medina. These were: a client of the family of al-Zubayr and others whom he "did not suspect". They told parts of the story on the authority of 'Abdullah b. Ka'b b. Malik, al Zuhri, 'Asim b. 'Umar b. Qatada, 'Abdullab b. Abi Bakr, Muhammad b. Ka'b of Qurayza, and "others among our men of learning", as he put it. Each of these contributed to the story, so that Ibn Ishaq's version is the sum total of the collective reports, pieced together. At a later stage Ibn Ishaq quotes another descendant of Qurayza, 'Attiyya13 by name, who had been spared, and, directly, a certain descendant of al-Zabir b. Bata, a prominent member of the tribe of Qurayza who figures in the narrative.

The story opens with a description of the effort of named Jewish leaders to organize against the Muslims an alliance of the hostile forces. The leaders named included three from the Banu al-Nadir and two of the tribe of Wa'il, another Jewish tribe; together with other Jewish fellow-tribesmen unnamed. Having persuaded the neighbouring Bedouin tribes of Ghatafan, Murra, Fazara, Sulaym, and Ashja' to take up arms, they now proceeded to Mecca where they succeeded in persuading the Quraysh. Having gathered together a besieging force, one of the Nadir leaders, Huyayy b. Akhtab, in effect forced himself on the third Jewish tribe still in Medina, the Banu Qurayza, and, against the better judgement of their leader, Ka'b b. Asad, he persuaded them to break faith with the Prophet in the hope, presented as a certainty, that the Muslims would not stand up to the combined attacking forces and that Qurayza and the other Jews would be restored to independent supremacy. The siege of Medina failed and the Jewish tribes suffered for their part in the whole operation.

The attitude of scholars and historians to Ibn lshaq's version of the story has been either one of complacency, sometimes mingled with uncertainty, or at least in two important cases, one of condemnatlon and outright rejection.

The complacent attitude is one of accepting the biography of the Prophet and the stories of the campaigns at they were received by later generations without the meticulous care or the application of the critical criteria which collectors of traditions or jurists employed. It was not necessary to check the veracity of authorities when transmitting or recording parts of the story of the Prophet's life.14 It was not essential to provide a continuous chain of authorities or even to give authorities at all. That is obvious in Ibn Ishaq's Sira. On the other hand reliable authority and a continuous line of transmission were essential when law was the issue. That is why Malik the jurist had no regard for Ibn Ishaq.15

One finds, therefore, that later historians and even exegetes either repeat the very words of Ibn Ishaq or else abbreviate the whole story. Historians gave it, as it were, a cold reception. Even Tabari, nearly 150 years after Ibn Ishaq, does not try to find other versions of the story as he usually does. He casts doubt by his use of the words, "Waqidi alleged (za'ama) that the Prophet caused trenches to be dug." Ibn ai-Qayyim in Zad al-ma'ad makes only the briefest reference and he ignores altogether the crucial question of numbers. Ibn Kathir even seems to have general doubt in his mind because he takes the trouble to point out that the story was told on such "good authority" as that of 'A'isha.16

Apart from mild complacency or doubtful acceptance of the story itself, Ibn Ishaq as an author was in fact subjected to devastating attacks by scholars, contemporary or later, on two particular accounts. One was his uncritical inclusion in his Sira of so much spurious or forged poetry;17 the other his unquestioning acceptance of just such a story as that of the slaughter of Banu Qurayza.

His contemporary, the early traditionist and jurist Malik, called him unequivocally "a liar" and "an impostor"18 "who transmits his stories from the Jews".19 In other words, applying his own criteria, Malik impugned the veracity of Ibn Ishaq's sources and rejected his approach. Indeed, neither Ibn Ishaq's list of informants nor his method of collecting and piecing together such a story would he acceptable to Malik the jurist.

In a later age Ibn Hajar further explained the point of Malik's condemnation of Ibn Ishaq. Malik, he said,20 condemned Ibn Ishaq because he made a point of seeking out descendants of the Jews of Medina in order to obtain from them accounts of the Prophet's campaigns as handed down by their forefathers. Ibn Hajar21 then rejected the stories in question in the strongest terms: "such odd tales as the story of Qurayza and al-Nadir". Nothing could be more damning than this outright rejection.

Against the late and uncertain sources on the one hand, and the condemning authorities on the other, must be set the only contemporary and entirely authentic source, the Qur'an. There the reference in Sura XXXIII, 26 is very brief: "He caused those of the People of the Book who helped them (i.e. the Quraysh) to come out of their forts. Some you killed, some you took prisoner."

Exegetes and traditionists tend simply to repeat Ibn Ishaq's tale, but in the Qur'an the reference can only be to those who were actually in the fighting. This is a statement about the battle. It concerns those who fought. Some of these were killed. others were taken prisoner.

One would think that if 600 or 900 people were killed in this manner the significance of the event would have been greater. There would have been a clearer reference in the Qur'an, a conclusion to be drawn, and a lesson to be learnt. But when only the guilty leaders were executed, it would be normal to expect only a brief reference.

So much for the sources: they were neither uninterested nor trustworthy; and the report was very late in time. Now for the story. The reasons for rejecting the story are the following:

(i) As already stated above, the reference to the story in the Qur'an is extremely brief, and there is no indication whatever of the killing of a large number. In a battle context the reference is to those who were actually fighting. The Qur'an is the only authority which the historian would accept without hesitation or doubt. It is a contemporary text, and, for the most cogent reasons, what we have is the authentic version.

(ii) The rule in Islam is to punish only those who were responsible for the sedition.

(iii) To kill such a large number is diametrically opposed to the Islamic sense of justice and to the basic principles laid down in the Qur'an - particularly the verse. "No soul shall bear another's burden."22 It is obvious in the story that the leaders were numbered and were well known. They were named.

(iv) It it also against the Qur'anic rule regarding prisoners of war, which is: either they are to be granted their freedom or else they are to be allowed to be ransomed.23

(v) It is unlikely that the Banu Qurayza should be slaughtered when the other Jewish groups who surrendered before Banu Qurayza and after them were treated leniently and allowed to go. Indeed Abu 'Ubayd b. Sallam relates in his Kitab al-amwal24 that when Khaybar felt to the Muslims there were among the residents a particular family or clan who had distinguished themselves by execesive unseemly abuse of the Prophet. Yet in that hour the Prophet addressed them in words which are no more than a rebuke: "Sons of Abu al-Huqayq (he said to them) I have known the extent of your hostility to God and to His apostle, yet that does not prevent me from treating you as I treated your brethren." That was after the surrender of Banu Qurayza.

(vi) If indeed so many hundreds of people had actually been put to death in the market-place, and trenches were dug for the operation, it is very strange that there should be no trace whatever of all that - no sign or word to point to the place, and no reference to a visible mark.25

(vii) Had this slaughter actually happened, jurists would have adopted it as a precedent. In fact exactly the opposite has been the case. The attitude of jurists, and their rulings, have been more according to the Qur'anic rule in the verse, "No soul shall bear another's burden."

Indeed, Abu 'Ubayd b. Sallam relates a very significant incident in his book Kifab al-amwal,26 which, it must be noted, is a book of jurisprudence, of law, not a sira or a biography. He tells us that in the time of the Imam al-Awza'i27 there was a case of trouble among a group of the People of the Book in the Lebanon when 'Abdullab b. 'All was regional governor. He put down the sedition and ordered the community in question to be moved elsewhere. Al-Awza'i in his capacity as the leading jurist immediately objected. His argument was that the incident was not the result of the cormmunity's unanimous agreement. "At far as I know (he argued) it is not a rule of God that God should punish the many for the fault of the few but punish the few for the fault of the many."

Now, had the Imam al-Awza'i accepted the story of the slaughter of Banu Qurayza, he would have treated it as a precedent, and would not have come out with an argument against Authority, represented in 'Abdullah b. 'Ali. Al-Awza'i, it should be remembered, was a younger contemporary of Ibn Ishaq.

(viii) In the story of Qurayza a few specific persons were named as having been put to death, some of whom were described as particularly active in their hostility. It is the reasonable conclusion that those were the ones who led the sedition and who were consequently punished - not the whole tribe.

(ix) The details given in the story clearly and of necessity imply inside knowledge, i.e. from among the Jews themselves. Such are the details of their consultation when they were besieged, the harangue of Ka'b b. Asad as their leader; and the suggestion that they should kill their women and children and then make a last desperate attack against the Muslims.

(x) Just as the descendants of Qurayza would want to glorify their ancestors, so did the descendants of the Madanese connected with the event. One notices that that part of the story which concerned the judgement of Sa'd b. Mu'adh against Qurayza, was transmitted from one of his direct descendants. According to this part the Prophet said to Mu'adh: "You have pronounced God's judgement upon them [as inspired] through Seven Veils."28

Now it is well known that for the purposes of glorifying their ancestors or white washing those who were inimical to Islam at the beginning, many stories were invented by later generations and a vast amount of verse was forged, much of which was transmitted by Ibn Ishaq. The story and the statement concerning Sa'd are one such detail.

(xi) Other details are difficult to accept. How could so many hundreds of persons he incarcerated in the house belonging to a woman of Banu al-Najjar?29

(xii) The history of the Jewish tribes after the establishment of Islam is not really clear at all. The idea that they all departed on the spot seems to be in need of revision, as can be seen on examining the sources. For example, in his Jamharat al-ansab,30 Ibn Hazm occasionally refers to Jews still living in Medina. In two places al-Waqidi31 mentions Jews who were still in Medina when the Prophet prepared to march against Khaybar - i.e. after the supposed liquidation of all three tribes, including Qurayza. In one case ten Madanese Jews actually joined the Prophet in an excursion to Khaybar, and in the other the Jews who had made their peace with him in Medina were extremely worried when he prepared to attack Khaybar. Al-Waqadi explains that they tried to prevent the departure of any Muslim who owed them money.

Indeed Ibn Kathir32 takes the trouble to point out that 'Umar expelled only those Jews of Khaybar who had not made a peace agreement with the Prophet. Ibn Kathir then proceeds to explain that at a much later date, i.e. after the year 300 A.H., the Jews of Khaybar claimed that they had in their possession a document allegedly given them by the Prophet which exempted them from poll-tax. He said that some scholars were taken in by this document so that they ruled that the Jews of Khaybar should be exempted. However, that was a forged letter and had been refuted in detail. It quoted persons who were already dead, it used technical terms which came into being at a later time, it claimed that Mu'awiya b. Abi Sufyan witnessed it, when in fact he had not even been converted to Islam at that time, and so on.

So then the real source of this unacceptable story of slaughter was the descendants of the Jews of Medina, from whom Ibn Ishaq took these "odd tales". For doing so Ibn Ishaq was severely criticized by other scholars and historians and was called by Malik an impostor.

The sources of the story are, therefore, extremely doubtful and the details are diametrically opposed to the spirit of Islam and the rules of the Qur'an to make the story credible. Credible authority is lacking, and circumstantial evidence does not support it. This means that the story is more than doubtful.

However, the story, in my view, has its origins in earlier events. Is can be shown that it reproduces similar stories which survived from the account of the Jewish rebellion against the Romans, which ended in the destruction of the temple in the year AD. 73, the night of the Jewish zealots and sicarii to the rock fortress of Masada, and the final liquidation of the besieged. Stories of their experience were naturally transmitted by Jewish survivors who fled south. Indeed one of the more plausible theories of the origin of the Jews of Medina is that they came after the Jewish wars. This was the theory preferred by the late Professor Guillaume.33

As is well known, the source of the details of the Jewish wars is Flavius Josephus, himself a Jew and a contemporary witness who held office under the Romans, who disapproved of certain actions which some of the rebels committed, but who nevertheless never ceased to be a Jew at heart. It is in his writings that we read of details which are closely similar to those transmitted to us in the Sira about the actions and the resistance of the Jews, except that now we see the responsibility for the actions placed on the Muslims.

In considering details of the story of Banu Qurayza as told by the descendants of that tribe, we may note the following similar details in the account of Josephus:

(i) According to Josephus,34 Alexander, who ruled in Jerusalem before Herod the Great, hung upon crosses 800 Jewish captives, and slaughtered their wives and children before their eyes.

(ii) Similarly, large numbers were killed by others.

(iii) Important details of the two stories are remarkably similar, particularly the numbers of those killed. At Masada the number of those who died at the end was 960.35 The hot-headed sicarii who were eventually also killed numbered 600.36 We also read that when they reached the point of despair they were addressed by their leader Eleazar (precisely as Ka'b b. Asad addressed the Banu Qurayza),37 who suggested to them the killing of their women and children. At the ultimate point of complete despair the plan of killing each other to the last man was proposed.

Clearly the similarity of details is most striking. Not only are the suggestions of mass suicide similar but even the numbers are almost the same. Even the same names occur in both accounts. There is Phineas, and Azar b. Azar,38 just as Eleazar addressed the Jews besieged in Masada.

There is, indeed, more than a mere similarity. Here we have the prototype - indeed, I would suggest, the origin of the story of Banu Qurayza, preserved by descendants of the Jews who fled south to Arabia after the Jewish Wars, just as Josephus recorded the same story for the Classical world. A later generation of these descendants superimposed details of the siege of Masada on the story of the siege of Banu Qurayza, perhaps by confusing a tradition of their distant past with one from their less remote history. The mixture provided Ibn Ishaq's story. When Muslim historians ignored it or transmitted it without comment or with cold lack of interest, they only expressed lack of enthusiasm for a strange tale, as Ibn Hajar called it.

One last point. Since the above was first written, I have seen reports39 of a paper given in August 1973 at the World Congress of Jewish Studies by Dr. Trude Weiss-Rosmarin, in which she challenges Josephus' assertion that 960 besieged Jews committed suicide at Masada. This is highly interesting since in the story of Qurayza the 960 or so Jews refused to commit suicide. Who knows, perhaps the Story of Banu Qurayza is an even more accurate form of the original version.

Footnotes

1. Ibn Ishaq, Sira (ed. Wustenfeld, Gottingen, 1860), 545-7; (ed. Saqqa et al., Cairo, 1955), II, 47-9. See also al-Waqidi, Kitab al-maghazi (ed. M. Jones, London, 1966), II, 440 ff.; Suhayl, al-Rawd al-unuf (Cairo, 1914), I, 187 et passim; Ibn Kathir, al-Sira al-Nabawiya (ed. Mustafa `Abd al-Wahid, Cairo, 1384-5/1964-6), II, 5, et passim.

2. Sira, 545-56, 652-61/II, 51-7, 190-202; Ibn Kathir, oop. cit., III, 145 ff.

3. Sira, 755-76, 779/II, 328-53, 356, etc. More on Khaybar follows below.

4. ibid., 776/II, 353-4.

5. ibid., 668-84/II, 214-33.

6. ibid., 684-700/II, 233-54.

7. ibid., 689/II, 240; `Uyun al-athar (Cairo, 1356 A.H.), II, 73; Ibn Kathir, II, 239.

8. In his introduction to `Uyun al-athar, I, 7, Ibn Sayyid al-Nas (d. 734 A.H.), having explained his plan for his biography of the Prophet, expressly states that his main source was Ibn Ishaq, who indeed was the chief source for everyone.

9. Tahdhib al-tahdhib, IX, 45. See also `Uyun al-athar, I, 17, where the author uses the same words, without giving a reference, in his introduction on the veracity of Ibn Ishaq and the criteria he applied.

10. d. 179.

11. `Uyun al-athar, I, 12.

12. ibid, I, 16.

13. Sira, 691-2/II, 242, 244; `Uyun al-athar, II, 74, 75.

14. Ibn Sayyid al-Nas (op. cit., I, 121) makes precisely this point in relation to the story of the Banu Qaynuqa' and the spurious verse which was said to have appeared in Sura LIII of the Qur'an and at the time was taken by polytheist Meccans as a recognition of their deities. The author explains how various scholars disposed of the problem and then sums up by stating that in his view, this story is to be treated on the same level as tales of the maghazi and accounts of the Sira (i.e. not to be accorded unqualified acceptance). Most scholars, he asserts, usually treated more liberally questions of minor importance and any material which did not involve a point of law, such as stories of the maghazi and similar reports. In such cases data would be accepted which would not be acceptable as a basis of deciding what is lawful or unlawful.

15. See n. 18 below.

16. Tabari, Tarikh, I, 1499 (where the reference is to al-Waqidi, Maghazi, II, 513); Zad al-ma`ad (ed. T. A. Taha, Cairo, 1970), II, 82; Ibn Kathir, op. cit., IV, 118.

17. On this see W. Arafat, "Early critics of the poetry of the Sira", BSOAS, XXI, 3, 1958, 453-63.

18. Kadhdhab and Dajjal min al-dajajila.

19. `Uyun al-athar, I, 16-7. In his valuable introduction Ibn Sayyid al-Nas provides a wide-ranging survey of the controversial views on Ibn Ishaq. In his full introduction to the Gottingen edition of the Sira, Wustenfeld in turn draws extensively on Ibn Sayyid al-Nas.

20. Tahdhib al-Tahdhib, IX, 45. See also `Uyun al-athar, I, 16-7.

21. ibid.

22. Qur'an, XXXV, 18.

23. Qur'an, XLI, 4.

24. ed. Khalil Muhammad Harras, Cairo, 1388/1968, 241.

25. Significantly, little or no information is to be found in general or special geographical dictionaries, such as al-Bakri's, Mu`jam ma'sta`jam; al-Fairuzabadi's al-Maghanim al-mutaba fi ma`alim taba (ed. Hamad al-Jasir, Dar al-Yamama, 1389/1969); Six treatises (Rasa'il fi tarikh al-Madina ed. Hamad al-Jasir, Dar al-Yamama, 1392/1972); al-Samhudi, Wafa' al-wafa' bi-akhbar dar al-Mustafa (Cairo, 1326), etc. Even al-Samhudi seems to regard a mention of the market-place in question as a mere historical reference, for in his extensive historical topography of Medina he identifies the market-place (p. 544) almost casually in the course of explaining the change in nomenclature which had overtaken adjacent landmarks. That market-place, he says, is the one referred to in the report (sic) that the Prophet brought out the prisoners of Banu Qurayza to the market-place of Medina, etc.

26. p. 247. I am indebted to my friend Professor Mahmud Ghul of the American University, Beirut, for bringing this reference to my attention.

27. d. 157/774. See EI2, sub nomine.

28. Sira, 689/II, 240; al-Waqidi, op. cit., 512.

29. Sira, 689/II, 240; Ibn Kathir, op. cit., III, 238.

30. e.g., Nasab Quraysh (ed. A. S. Harun, Cairo, 1962), 340.

31. op. cit., II, 634, 684.

32. op. cit., III, 415.

33. A. Guillaume, Islam (Harmondsworth, 1956), 10-11.

34. De bello Judaico, I, 4, 6.

35. ibid., VII, 9, 1.

36. ibid., VII, 10, 1.

37. Sira, 685-6/II, 235-6.

38. Sira, 352, 396/I, 514, 567.

39. The Times, 18 August 1973; and The Guardian, 20 August 1973.
 
« Last Edit: February 07, 2014, 02:06:26 PM by PeteWaldo »

PeteWaldo

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Re: Re: Question for Mujaheed
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2014, 11:34:08 AM »
Covetousness ---> Muhammad took wives in ways that were not allowed for ANY other believer... Oh, and he wrote the rules for that, too. (Sura 33)
Lying ---> Muhamad lied to his wives (Sura 66)
Theft ---> Caravan Raids http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/muhammad/myths-mu-raid-caravans.htm
Adultery ---> See Covetousness
Murder ---> See Theft

and on and on

You serve the lawless one.

Thats your interpretation, your opinion, your conjecture.....

Far from conjecture, it is how the false prophet Muhammad is revealed in Islam's own books. Now since you falsely accused me, of false accusation, I am going to require you answer the following, in regard to my truthful accusations.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1905.msg16181#msg16181

Let's start with prisoner rape.

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: We got female captives in the war booty and we used to do coitus interruptus with them. So we asked Allah's Apostle about it and he said, "Do you really do that?" repeating the question thrice, "There is no soul that is destined to exist but will come into existence, till the Day of Resurrection."  (Book #62, Hadith #137)

Plenty more such verses where that came from.
http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=coitus&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all

So Muj, did the Muhammadans RAPE the women of the Jewish tribes of Medina, or do you believe the little girls and women of the Banu Qurayza DESIRED to have sex with the very men responsible for beheading their sons, husbands, brothers, fathers and grandfathers and the rape of their little daughters, sisters and mothers?
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm#banu_qurayza

Why don't you ask you wife if someone beheaded her son, husband and father and raped her sister and little daughter,  if she would desire to have sex with one of the perpetrators.

NO MUHAMMAD DID NOT RAPE OR MURDER. THATS YOUR OPINION ON A DOUBTFUL MATTER

At least you are finally admitting that Islamic so-called "tradition" is nothing more than layer upon layer, of lie upon lie.

I imagine that if the guys at Al-Azhar University catch you trying to peddle that crap they will offer you the same fate they offered Muammar Gaddafi when he went "renegade":
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=892.0

You are running and hiding from what your Middle Eastern brethren consider to be one of the proudest moments in Islamic history. The mass-murder of those Jews boys and dads and rape of their wives, women and children.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V22qDQqMPL0

Let alone that to condemn Ishak is to condemn all Hadiths, since Ishak is their source by way of Ibn Hisham.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2860.0
Though I agree with you that they're all liars.

You haven't tried to peddle such a ridiculous, anti-Islam anti-Islamic scholar, pile of tripe in this forum since you dragged in the nonsense that pretended that Mecca is actually where all of the patriarchs and prophets were from, rather than Jerusalem!
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2057.msg8590#msg8590

Heres proof:

So it took 1400 years for a guy to come along that was smart enough to rewrite Islamic history, eigh Muj? A brand new history penned by a guilt-ridden modern-day dissimulation peddling "hypocrite", lying "renegade", Muslim apologist for Muhammad isn't "proof" Muj. At least he prefaced his pop-history with a tacit admission that Muhammad's "new" religion didn't precede Muhammad and was unrelated to Judaism!

It is also generally accepted that at first the Prophet Muhammad hoped that the Jews of Yathrib, as followers of a divine religion, would show understanding of the new monotheistic religion, Islam.

I was also amused by the liar's description of when Muhammad banished the Jews into the desert to die:

.....the final result of the struggle was the disappearance of these Jewish communities from Arabia proper.
.....agreed to surrender and were allowed to depart, taking with them all their transportable possessions.

So which part of the following Sura is a lie Muj? The "Some you slew, and some you made prisoners" part?

Qur'an Surah 33:26 Allah took down the People of the Scripture Book. He cast terror into their hearts. Some you slew, and some you made prisoners. And He made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods, giving you a land which you had not traversed before. And Allah has power over all things.

So you're saying Muhammad got it all wrong?

Sura 33:50-51 - "O prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war ... this only for thee, and not for believers [at large]; we know what we have appointed for them as to their wives and the captives whom their right hand possess; - in order that there should be no difficulty for thee. And God is oft-forgiving, most merciful.

Your saying that Muhammad was wrong when he indicated that Muslims are supposed to capture, sexually abuse and enslave captive women?

Surah 4:24 Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess:...

Sahih Muslim: "It is permissible to have sexual intercourse with a captive woman after she is purified (of menses or delivery) in case she has a husband, her marriage is abrogated after she becomes captive.

Or are you saying that women would desire to have sex with a captor, even while her husband was still around?

So Muj, did the Muhammadans RAPE the women they made captive, or do you believe their captives DESIRED to have sex with the very men that captured them?

PeteWaldo

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Re: The Muhammadans Rape and Sexual Enslavement of Prisoners
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2014, 01:37:02 PM »
So Bukhari, who Muhammadans (besides you of course) consider the most divinely inspired Hadith collector, you must consider to be the biggest liar!

(1) Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: that while he was sitting with Allah's Apostle he said, "O Allah's Apostle! We get female captives as our share of booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interrupt us?" The Prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do it. No soul that which Allah has destined to exist, but will surely come into existence.  (Bukhari Book #34, Hadith #432)

(2) Narrated Ibn Muhairiz: I saw Abu Said and asked him about coitus interruptus. Abu Said said, "We went with Allah's Apostle, in the Ghazwa of Barli Al-Mustaliq and we captured some of the 'Arabs as captives, and the long separation from our wives was pressing us hard and we wanted to practice coitus interruptus. We asked Allah's Apostle (whether it was permissible). He said, "It is better for you not to do so. No soul, (that which Allah has) destined to exist, up to the Day of Resurrection, but will definitely come, into existence."  Bukhari (Book #46, Hadith #718)

(3) Narrated Ibn Muhairiz: I entered the Mosque and saw Abu Said Al-Khudri and sat beside him and asked him about Al-Azl (i.e. coitus interruptus). Abu Said said, "We went out with Allah's Apostle for the Ghazwa of Banu Al-Mustaliq and we received captives from among the Arab captives and we desired women and celibacy became hard on us and we loved to do coitus interruptus. So when we intended to do coitus interrupt us, we said, 'How can we do coitus interruptus before asking Allah's Apostle who is present among us?" We asked (him) about it and he said, 'It is better for you not to do so, for if any soul (till the Day of Resurrection) is predestined to exist, it will exist."  (Bukhari Book #59, Hadith #459)

(6) Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: We got female captives in the war booty and we used to do coitus interruptus with them. So we asked Allah's Apostle about it and he said, "Do you really do that?" repeating the question thrice, "There is no soul that is destined to exist but will come into existence, till the Day of Resurrection."  (Bukhari Book #62, Hadith #137)

(7) Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: That while he was sitting with the Prophet a man from the Ansar came and said, "O Allah's Apostle! We get slave girls from the war captives and we love property; what do you think about coitus interruptus?" Allah's Apostle said, "Do you do that? It is better for you not to do it, for there is no soul which Allah has ordained to come into existence but will be created."  (Bukhari Book #77, Hadith #600)

(8) Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: That during the battle with Bani Al-Mustaliq they (Muslims) captured some females and intended to have sexual relation with them without impregnating them. So they asked the Prophet about coitus interrupt us. The Prophet said, "It is better that you should not do it, for Allah has written whom He is going to create till the Day of Resurrection." Qaza'a said, "I heard Abu Sa'id saying that the Prophet said, 'No soul is ordained to be created but Allah will create it."  (Bukhari Book #93, Hadith #506)

Bukhari! What a big fat liar, eigh Muj?!

And now that you finally admit that the hadith is a big fat lie, you can admit the same about the terrorist you call "Allah" and his Quran:

Qur'an 33:26 "Allah took down the People of the Scripture Book. He cast terror into their hearts. Some you slew, and some you made prisoners. And He made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods, giving you a land which you had not traversed before. And Allah has power over all things."

Sura 33:50-51 - "O prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war ... this only for thee, and not for believers [at large]; we know what we have appointed for them as to their wives and the  captives whom their right hand possess; - in order that there should be no difficulty for thee. And God is oft-forgiving, most merciful. Yusuf Ali translation from M. Ali - Islam Reviewed (free book at the link)

Including still-married women:

Surah 4:24 Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess:...

PeteWaldo

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Re: Re: Question for Mujaheed
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2014, 04:27:53 PM »
His contemporary, the early traditionist and jurist Malik, called him unequivocally "a liar" and "an impostor"18 "who transmits his stories from the Jews".19 In other words, applying his own criteria, Malik impugned the veracity of Ibn Ishaq's sources and rejected his approach. Indeed, neither Ibn Ishaq's list of informants nor his method of collecting and piecing together such a story would he acceptable to Malik the jurist.

This guy must not know much. Ishak is the source of Muhammad's fake genealogy too.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1214.0

Mujaheed

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Re: Re: Question for Mujaheed
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2014, 11:57:40 AM »
His contemporary, the early traditionist and jurist Malik, called him unequivocally "a liar" and "an impostor"18 "who transmits his stories from the Jews".19 In other words, applying his own criteria, Malik impugned the veracity of Ibn Ishaq's sources and rejected his approach. Indeed, neither Ibn Ishaq's list of informants nor his method of collecting and piecing together such a story would he acceptable to Malik the jurist.

This guy must not know much. Ishak is the source of Muhammad's fake genealogy too.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1214.0

Your main problem is that you applying a western value of the 21st century to the 6th century as if the world has become very successful in worshipping GOD.

You hold on lies and a faith invented by the Greek and Roman philosophies as if it is sent by the Prophets.

You oppose the truth and apply your "constitution that is highly flawed and discriminatory to all the Prophets of God,

YOUR VALUE SYSTEM IS DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED TO THE SYSTEM OF GOD.

YOU THE EBENMY THAT IS MENTIONED IN SCRIPTURE.

YOU SAY YOU BELIEVE THEN GO ON TO BREAK THE MOST IMPORTANT OF COMMANDS, HEAR YE O' ISREAL THE LORD YOUR GOD IS ONE.

FOLLOW THE COMMANDS OF GOD. PRAY LIKE THE PROPHETS PRAYED, BELIEVE LIKE THE PROPHETS DO AND MAYBE YOU WILL FIND THE ANSWERS YOU SEEK.

THE HADITH OF BUKHARI IS CORROBORATED, Checked and AUTHENTICATED.

PLEASE READ THE ARTICLE AGAIN AND CHECK HIS SOURCES AND HIS FACTS BEFORE YOU EMBARRASS YOURSELF AGAIN!!!!!!

PeteWaldo

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Re: Re: Question for Mujaheed
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2014, 01:21:21 PM »
His contemporary, the early traditionist and jurist Malik, called him unequivocally "a liar" and "an impostor"18 "who transmits his stories from the Jews".19 In other words, applying his own criteria, Malik impugned the veracity of Ibn Ishaq's sources and rejected his approach. Indeed, neither Ibn Ishaq's list of informants nor his method of collecting and piecing together such a story would he acceptable to Malik the jurist.

This guy must not know much. Ishak is the source of Muhammad's fake genealogy too.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1214.0

Your main problem is that you applying a western value of the 21st century to the 6th century as if the world has become very successful in worshipping GOD.

You hold on lies and a faith invented by the Greek and Roman philosophies as if it is sent by the Prophets.

You oppose the truth and apply your "constitution that is highly flawed and discriminatory to all the Prophets of God,

YOUR VALUE SYSTEM IS DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED TO THE SYSTEM OF GOD.

YOU THE EBENMY THAT IS MENTIONED IN SCRIPTURE.

YOU SAY YOU BELIEVE THEN GO ON TO BREAK THE MOST IMPORTANT OF COMMANDS, HEAR YE O' ISREAL THE LORD YOUR GOD IS ONE.

FOLLOW THE COMMANDS OF GOD. PRAY LIKE THE PROPHETS PRAYED, BELIEVE LIKE THE PROPHETS DO AND MAYBE YOU WILL FIND THE ANSWERS YOU SEEK.

THE HADITH OF BUKHARI IS CORROBORATED, Checked and AUTHENTICATED.

PLEASE READ THE ARTICLE AGAIN AND CHECK HIS SOURCES AND HIS FACTS BEFORE YOU EMBARRASS YOURSELF AGAIN!!!!!!

What does your blasphemy of the one true God of the scriptures, have to do with Muhammad's fake genealogy that you quoted?
Why did you ignore the prior two posts, and then post in the spam section where I moved your redundant post to, as if I hadn't answered to the new nonsense you dragged in this thread?
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3993.msg16214#msg16214

Did it really take this modern wizard named W. N. ARAFAT, that is rewriting Islamic history to conform to the vain wishes of western "hypocrite" "renegades", for you to finally see that the Quran and hadith are layer upon layer, of lie upon lie?
We've been pointing that out to you for years now Muj!
Is Bukhari's hadith collection a pack of big fat lies just like all the rest? Of course he is! At least you finally admit it Muj.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3993.msg16219#msg16219

Mujaheed

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Re: Re: Question for Mujaheed
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2014, 04:36:57 AM »
His contemporary, the early traditionist and jurist Malik, called him unequivocally "a liar" and "an impostor"18 "who transmits his stories from the Jews".19 In other words, applying his own criteria, Malik impugned the veracity of Ibn Ishaq's sources and rejected his approach. Indeed, neither Ibn Ishaq's list of informants nor his method of collecting and piecing together such a story would he acceptable to Malik the jurist.

This guy must not know much. Ishak is the source of Muhammad's fake genealogy too.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1214.0

Your main problem is that you applying a western value of the 21st century to the 6th century as if the world has become very successful in worshipping GOD.

You hold on lies and a faith invented by the Greek and Roman philosophies as if it is sent by the Prophets.

You oppose the truth and apply your "constitution that is highly flawed and discriminatory to all the Prophets of God,

YOUR VALUE SYSTEM IS DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED TO THE SYSTEM OF GOD.

YOU THE EBENMY THAT IS MENTIONED IN SCRIPTURE.

YOU SAY YOU BELIEVE THEN GO ON TO BREAK THE MOST IMPORTANT OF COMMANDS, HEAR YE O' ISREAL THE LORD YOUR GOD IS ONE.

FOLLOW THE COMMANDS OF GOD. PRAY LIKE THE PROPHETS PRAYED, BELIEVE LIKE THE PROPHETS DO AND MAYBE YOU WILL FIND THE ANSWERS YOU SEEK.

THE HADITH OF BUKHARI IS CORROBORATED, Checked and AUTHENTICATED.

PLEASE READ THE ARTICLE AGAIN AND CHECK HIS SOURCES AND HIS FACTS BEFORE YOU EMBARRASS YOURSELF AGAIN!!!!!!

What does your blasphemy of the one true God of the scriptures, have to do with Muhammad's fake genealogy that you quoted?
Why did you ignore the prior two posts, and then post in the spam section where I moved your redundant post to, as if I hadn't answered to the new nonsense you dragged in this thread?
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3993.msg16214#msg16214

Did it really take this modern wizard named W. N. ARAFAT, that is rewriting Islamic history to conform to the vain wishes of western "hypocrite" "renegades", for you to finally see that the Quran and hadith are layer upon layer, of lie upon lie?
We've been pointing that out to you for years now Muj!
Is Bukhari's hadith collection a pack of big fat lies just like all the rest? Of course he is! At least you finally admit it Muj.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3993.msg16219#msg16219

No i pointed out that we know conjecture from liars unlike you and your merry band of conjecturers

We (Muslims can distinguish between truth and falsehood.

We know when someone looks like Jesus (long Robe and bearded) that he he loves the Prophets, We know not all who dress like that cannot be trusted.

We know hadith is an exact science of separating true narrations from fabricated ones (something the Christians never had)

We Guard the truth with our lives you dish out comments, suggestions, conjecture and lies like candy.

So please try again, minus your lies and conjecture, i am challenging this narration of Ishgak. I am not dogmatic like you are are or as narrow minded.

My heart is not closed to the truth and I cannot trust the words of one who does not Adhere to the first and greatest of Commands HEAR YE O MANKIND : THERE IS NO GOD BUT GOD,  UNIQUE he begets not nor is he Begotten.

PeteWaldo

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Re: Re: Question for Mujaheed
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2014, 02:56:40 PM »
I DONT BELIEVE THE STORY AND HERE IS ONE OF THE EXAMPLES WHY I DONT BELIEVE THE FABRICATION. [admin added this to this post from your redundant post]

NO MUHAMMAD DID NOT RAPE OR MURDER. THATS YOUR OPINION ON A DOUBTFUL MATTER

Heres proof:

NEW LIGHT ON THE STORY OF BANU QURAYZA AND THE
 
JEWS OF MEDINA
 
By W. N. ARAFAT
 
From Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and Ireland,
(1976), pp. 100-107.
 
 
IT IS WELL KNOWN THAT at the advent of Islam there were three Jewish tribes who lived in Yathrib (later Medina), as well as other Jewish settlements further to the north, the most important of which were Khaybar and Fadak. It is also generally accepted that at first the Prophet Muhammad hoped that the Jews of Yathrib, as followers of a divine religion, would show understanding of the new monotheistic religion, Islam. However, as soon as these tribes realized that Islam was being firmly established and gaining power, they adopted an actively hostile attitude, and the final result of the struggle was the disappearance of these Jewish communities from Arabia proper.
The biographers of the Prophet, followed by later historians, tell us that Banu Qaynuqa.,1 and later Banu al-Nadir,2 provoked the Muslims, were besieged, and in turn agreed to surrender and were allowed to depart, taking with them all their transportable possessions. Later on Khaybar3 and Fadak4 were evacuated. According to Ibn Ishaq in the Sira,5 the third of the Jewish tribes, Banu Qurayza, sided with the Quras**tes and their allies, who made an unsuccessful attack on Medina in an attempt to destroy Islam. This, the most serious challenge to Islam, failed, and the Banu Qurayza were in turn besieged by the Prophet. Like Banu al-Nadir, in time they surrendered, but unlike the Banu al-Nadir, they were subjected to the arbitration of Sa'd b. Mu'adh, a member of the Aws tribe, allies of Qurayza. He ruled that the grown-up males should be put to death and the women and children subjected to slavery. Consequentiy, trenches were dug in the market-place in Medina, and the men of Qurayza were brought out in groups and their necks were struck.6 Estimates of those killed vary from 400 to 900.

On examination, details of the story can he challenged. It can be demonstrated that the assertion that 600 or 800 or 9007 men of Banu Qurayza were put to death in cold blood can not be true; that it is a later invention; and that it has its source in Jewish traditions. Indeed the source of the details in earlier Jewish history can be pointed out with surprising accuracy.

The Arabic sources will now be surveyed, and the contribution of their Jewish informants will be discussed. The credibility of the details will then be assessed, and the prototype in earlier Jewish history pin-pointed.

The earliest work that we have, with the widest range of details, is Ibn Ishaq's Sira, his biography of the Prophet. It is also the longest and the most widely quoted. Later historians draw, and in most cases depend on him.8 But Ibn Ishaq died in 151 A.H., i.e. 145 years after the event in question. Later historians simply take his version of the story, omitting more or less of the detail, and overlooking his uncertain list of authorities. They generally abbreviate the story, which appears just as one more event to report. In most cases their interest seems to end there. Some of them indicate that they are not really convinced, but they are not prepared to take further trouble. One authority, Ibn Hajar, however, denounces this story and the other related ones as "odd tales".9 A contemporary of Ibn Ishaq, Malik,10 the jurist, denounces Ibn Ishaq outright as "a liar"11 and "an impostor"12 just for transmitting such stories.

It must be remembered that historians and authors of the Prophet's biography did not apply the strict rules of the "traditionists". They did not always provide a chain of authorities, each of whom had to be verified as trustworthy and as certain or likely to have transmitted his report directly from his informant, and so on. The attitude towards biographical details and towards the early events of Islam was far less meticulous than their attitude to the Prophet's traditions, or indeed to any material relevant to jurisprudence. Indeed Ibn Ishaq's account of the siege of Medina and the fall of the Banu Qurayza is pieced together by him from information given by a variety of persons he names, including Muslim descendants of the Jews of Qurayza.

Against these late and uncertain sources must be placed the only contemporary and entirely authentic source, the Qur'an. There, the reference in Sura XXXIII, 26 is very brief:

"He caused those of the People of the Book who helped them (i.e. the Quraysh) to come out of their forts. Some you killed, some you took prisoner." There is no reference to numbers.

Ibn Ishaq sets out his direct sources as he opens the relevant chapter on the siege of Medina. These were: a client of the family of al-Zubayr and others whom he "did not suspect". They told parts of the story on the authority of 'Abdullah b. Ka'b b. Malik, al Zuhri, 'Asim b. 'Umar b. Qatada, 'Abdullab b. Abi Bakr, Muhammad b. Ka'b of Qurayza, and "others among our men of learning", as he put it. Each of these contributed to the story, so that Ibn Ishaq's version is the sum total of the collective reports, pieced together. At a later stage Ibn Ishaq quotes another descendant of Qurayza, 'Attiyya13 by name, who had been spared, and, directly, a certain descendant of al-Zabir b. Bata, a prominent member of the tribe of Qurayza who figures in the narrative.

The story opens with a description of the effort of named Jewish leaders to organize against the Muslims an alliance of the hostile forces. The leaders named included three from the Banu al-Nadir and two of the tribe of Wa'il, another Jewish tribe; together with other Jewish fellow-tribesmen unnamed. Having persuaded the neighbouring Bedouin tribes of Ghatafan, Murra, Fazara, Sulaym, and Ashja' to take up arms, they now proceeded to Mecca where they succeeded in persuading the Quraysh. Having gathered together a besieging force, one of the Nadir leaders, Huyayy b. Akhtab, in effect forced himself on the third Jewish tribe still in Medina, the Banu Qurayza, and, against the better judgement of their leader, Ka'b b. Asad, he persuaded them to break faith with the Prophet in the hope, presented as a certainty, that the Muslims would not stand up to the combined attacking forces and that Qurayza and the other Jews would be restored to independent supremacy. The siege of Medina failed and the Jewish tribes suffered for their part in the whole operation.

The attitude of scholars and historians to Ibn lshaq's version of the story has been either one of complacency, sometimes mingled with uncertainty, or at least in two important cases, one of condemnatlon and outright rejection.

The complacent attitude is one of accepting the biography of the Prophet and the stories of the campaigns at they were received by later generations without the meticulous care or the application of the critical criteria which collectors of traditions or jurists employed. It was not necessary to check the veracity of authorities when transmitting or recording parts of the story of the Prophet's life.14 It was not essential to provide a continuous chain of authorities or even to give authorities at all. That is obvious in Ibn Ishaq's Sira. On the other hand reliable authority and a continuous line of transmission were essential when law was the issue. That is why Malik the jurist had no regard for Ibn Ishaq.15

One finds, therefore, that later historians and even exegetes either repeat the very words of Ibn Ishaq or else abbreviate the whole story. Historians gave it, as it were, a cold reception. Even Tabari, nearly 150 years after Ibn Ishaq, does not try to find other versions of the story as he usually does. He casts doubt by his use of the words, "Waqidi alleged (za'ama) that the Prophet caused trenches to be dug." Ibn ai-Qayyim in Zad al-ma'ad makes only the briefest reference and he ignores altogether the crucial question of numbers. Ibn Kathir even seems to have general doubt in his mind because he takes the trouble to point out that the story was told on such "good authority" as that of 'A'isha.16

Apart from mild complacency or doubtful acceptance of the story itself, Ibn Ishaq as an author was in fact subjected to devastating attacks by scholars, contemporary or later, on two particular accounts. One was his uncritical inclusion in his Sira of so much spurious or forged poetry;17 the other his unquestioning acceptance of just such a story as that of the slaughter of Banu Qurayza.

His contemporary, the early traditionist and jurist Malik, called him unequivocally "a liar" and "an impostor"18 "who transmits his stories from the Jews".19 In other words, applying his own criteria, Malik impugned the veracity of Ibn Ishaq's sources and rejected his approach. Indeed, neither Ibn Ishaq's list of informants nor his method of collecting and piecing together such a story would he acceptable to Malik the jurist.

In a later age Ibn Hajar further explained the point of Malik's condemnation of Ibn Ishaq. Malik, he said,20 condemned Ibn Ishaq because he made a point of seeking out descendants of the Jews of Medina in order to obtain from them accounts of the Prophet's campaigns as handed down by their forefathers. Ibn Hajar21 then rejected the stories in question in the strongest terms: "such odd tales as the story of Qurayza and al-Nadir". Nothing could be more damning than this outright rejection.

Against the late and uncertain sources on the one hand, and the condemning authorities on the other, must be set the only contemporary and entirely authentic source, the Qur'an. There the reference in Sura XXXIII, 26 is very brief: "He caused those of the People of the Book who helped them (i.e. the Quraysh) to come out of their forts. Some you killed, some you took prisoner."

Exegetes and traditionists tend simply to repeat Ibn Ishaq's tale, but in the Qur'an the reference can only be to those who were actually in the fighting. This is a statement about the battle. It concerns those who fought. Some of these were killed. others were taken prisoner.

One would think that if 600 or 900 people were killed in this manner the significance of the event would have been greater. There would have been a clearer reference in the Qur'an, a conclusion to be drawn, and a lesson to be learnt. But when only the guilty leaders were executed, it would be normal to expect only a brief reference.

So much for the sources: they were neither uninterested nor trustworthy; and the report was very late in time. Now for the story. The reasons for rejecting the story are the following:

(i) As already stated above, the reference to the story in the Qur'an is extremely brief, and there is no indication whatever of the killing of a large number. In a battle context the reference is to those who were actually fighting. The Qur'an is the only authority which the historian would accept without hesitation or doubt. It is a contemporary text, and, for the most cogent reasons, what we have is the authentic version.

(ii) The rule in Islam is to punish only those who were responsible for the sedition.

(iii) To kill such a large number is diametrically opposed to the Islamic sense of justice and to the basic principles laid down in the Qur'an - particularly the verse. "No soul shall bear another's burden."22 It is obvious in the story that the leaders were numbered and were well known. They were named.

(iv) It it also against the Qur'anic rule regarding prisoners of war, which is: either they are to be granted their freedom or else they are to be allowed to be ransomed.23

(v) It is unlikely that the Banu Qurayza should be slaughtered when the other Jewish groups who surrendered before Banu Qurayza and after them were treated leniently and allowed to go. Indeed Abu 'Ubayd b. Sallam relates in his Kitab al-amwal24 that when Khaybar felt to the Muslims there were among the residents a particular family or clan who had distinguished themselves by execesive unseemly abuse of the Prophet. Yet in that hour the Prophet addressed them in words which are no more than a rebuke: "Sons of Abu al-Huqayq (he said to them) I have known the extent of your hostility to God and to His apostle, yet that does not prevent me from treating you as I treated your brethren." That was after the surrender of Banu Qurayza.

(vi) If indeed so many hundreds of people had actually been put to death in the market-place, and trenches were dug for the operation, it is very strange that there should be no trace whatever of all that - no sign or word to point to the place, and no reference to a visible mark.25

(vii) Had this slaughter actually happened, jurists would have adopted it as a precedent. In fact exactly the opposite has been the case. The attitude of jurists, and their rulings, have been more according to the Qur'anic rule in the verse, "No soul shall bear another's burden."

Indeed, Abu 'Ubayd b. Sallam relates a very significant incident in his book Kifab al-amwal,26 which, it must be noted, is a book of jurisprudence, of law, not a sira or a biography. He tells us that in the time of the Imam al-Awza'i27 there was a case of trouble among a group of the People of the Book in the Lebanon when 'Abdullab b. 'All was regional governor. He put down the sedition and ordered the community in question to be moved elsewhere. Al-Awza'i in his capacity as the leading jurist immediately objected. His argument was that the incident was not the result of the cormmunity's unanimous agreement. "At far as I know (he argued) it is not a rule of God that God should punish the many for the fault of the few but punish the few for the fault of the many."

Now, had the Imam al-Awza'i accepted the story of the slaughter of Banu Qurayza, he would have treated it as a precedent, and would not have come out with an argument against Authority, represented in 'Abdullah b. 'Ali. Al-Awza'i, it should be remembered, was a younger contemporary of Ibn Ishaq.

(viii) In the story of Qurayza a few specific persons were named as having been put to death, some of whom were described as particularly active in their hostility. It is the reasonable conclusion that those were the ones who led the sedition and who were consequently punished - not the whole tribe.

(ix) The details given in the story clearly and of necessity imply inside knowledge, i.e. from among the Jews themselves. Such are the details of their consultation when they were besieged, the harangue of Ka'b b. Asad as their leader; and the suggestion that they should kill their women and children and then make a last desperate attack against the Muslims.

(x) Just as the descendants of Qurayza would want to glorify their ancestors, so did the descendants of the Madanese connected with the event. One notices that that part of the story which concerned the judgement of Sa'd b. Mu'adh against Qurayza, was transmitted from one of his direct descendants. According to this part the Prophet said to Mu'adh: "You have pronounced God's judgement upon them [as inspired] through Seven Veils."28

Now it is well known that for the purposes of glorifying their ancestors or white washing those who were inimical to Islam at the beginning, many stories were invented by later generations and a vast amount of verse was forged, much of which was transmitted by Ibn Ishaq. The story and the statement concerning Sa'd are one such detail.

(xi) Other details are difficult to accept. How could so many hundreds of persons he incarcerated in the house belonging to a woman of Banu al-Najjar?29

(xii) The history of the Jewish tribes after the establishment of Islam is not really clear at all. The idea that they all departed on the spot seems to be in need of revision, as can be seen on examining the sources. For example, in his Jamharat al-ansab,30 Ibn Hazm occasionally refers to Jews still living in Medina. In two places al-Waqidi31 mentions Jews who were still in Medina when the Prophet prepared to march against Khaybar - i.e. after the supposed liquidation of all three tribes, including Qurayza. In one case ten Madanese Jews actually joined the Prophet in an excursion to Khaybar, and in the other the Jews who had made their peace with him in Medina were extremely worried when he prepared to attack Khaybar. Al-Waqadi explains that they tried to prevent the departure of any Muslim who owed them money.

Indeed Ibn Kathir32 takes the trouble to point out that 'Umar expelled only those Jews of Khaybar who had not made a peace agreement with the Prophet. Ibn Kathir then proceeds to explain that at a much later date, i.e. after the year 300 A.H., the Jews of Khaybar claimed that they had in their possession a document allegedly given them by the Prophet which exempted them from poll-tax. He said that some scholars were taken in by this document so that they ruled that the Jews of Khaybar should be exempted. However, that was a forged letter and had been refuted in detail. It quoted persons who were already dead, it used technical terms which came into being at a later time, it claimed that Mu'awiya b. Abi Sufyan witnessed it, when in fact he had not even been converted to Islam at that time, and so on.

So then the real source of this unacceptable story of slaughter was the descendants of the Jews of Medina, from whom Ibn Ishaq took these "odd tales". For doing so Ibn Ishaq was severely criticized by other scholars and historians and was called by Malik an impostor.

The sources of the story are, therefore, extremely doubtful and the details are diametrically opposed to the spirit of Islam and the rules of the Qur'an to make the story credible. Credible authority is lacking, and circumstantial evidence does not support it. This means that the story is more than doubtful.

However, the story, in my view, has its origins in earlier events. Is can be shown that it reproduces similar stories which survived from the account of the Jewish rebellion against the Romans, which ended in the destruction of the temple in the year AD. 73, the night of the Jewish zealots and sicarii to the rock fortress of Masada, and the final liquidation of the besieged. Stories of their experience were naturally transmitted by Jewish survivors who fled south. Indeed one of the more plausible theories of the origin of the Jews of Medina is that they came after the Jewish wars. This was the theory preferred by the late Professor Guillaume.33

As is well known, the source of the details of the Jewish wars is Flavius Josephus, himself a Jew and a contemporary witness who held office under the Romans, who disapproved of certain actions which some of the rebels committed, but who nevertheless never ceased to be a Jew at heart. It is in his writings that we read of details which are closely similar to those transmitted to us in the Sira about the actions and the resistance of the Jews, except that now we see the responsibility for the actions placed on the Muslims.

In considering details of the story of Banu Qurayza as told by the descendants of that tribe, we may note the following similar details in the account of Josephus:

(i) According to Josephus,34 Alexander, who ruled in Jerusalem before Herod the Great, hung upon crosses 800 Jewish captives, and slaughtered their wives and children before their eyes.

(ii) Similarly, large numbers were killed by others.

(iii) Important details of the two stories are remarkably similar, particularly the numbers of those killed. At Masada the number of those who died at the end was 960.35 The hot-headed sicarii who were eventually also killed numbered 600.36 We also read that when they reached the point of despair they were addressed by their leader Eleazar (precisely as Ka'b b. Asad addressed the Banu Qurayza),37 who suggested to them the killing of their women and children. At the ultimate point of complete despair the plan of killing each other to the last man was proposed.

Clearly the similarity of details is most striking. Not only are the suggestions of mass suicide similar but even the numbers are almost the same. Even the same names occur in both accounts. There is Phineas, and Azar b. Azar,38 just as Eleazar addressed the Jews besieged in Masada.

There is, indeed, more than a mere similarity. Here we have the prototype - indeed, I would suggest, the origin of the story of Banu Qurayza, preserved by descendants of the Jews who fled south to Arabia after the Jewish Wars, just as Josephus recorded the same story for the Classical world. A later generation of these descendants superimposed details of the siege of Masada on the story of the siege of Banu Qurayza, perhaps by confusing a tradition of their distant past with one from their less remote history. The mixture provided Ibn Ishaq's story. When Muslim historians ignored it or transmitted it without comment or with cold lack of interest, they only expressed lack of enthusiasm for a strange tale, as Ibn Hajar called it.

One last point. Since the above was first written, I have seen reports39 of a paper given in August 1973 at the World Congress of Jewish Studies by Dr. Trude Weiss-Rosmarin, in which she challenges Josephus' assertion that 960 besieged Jews committed suicide at Masada. This is highly interesting since in the story of Qurayza the 960 or so Jews refused to commit suicide. Who knows, perhaps the Story of Banu Qurayza is an even more accurate form of the original version.

Footnotes

1. Ibn Ishaq, Sira (ed. Wustenfeld, Gottingen, 1860), 545-7; (ed. Saqqa et al., Cairo, 1955), II, 47-9. See also al-Waqidi, Kitab al-maghazi (ed. M. Jones, London, 1966), II, 440 ff.; Suhayl, al-Rawd al-unuf (Cairo, 1914), I, 187 et passim; Ibn Kathir, al-Sira al-Nabawiya (ed. Mustafa `Abd al-Wahid, Cairo, 1384-5/1964-6), II, 5, et passim.

2. Sira, 545-56, 652-61/II, 51-7, 190-202; Ibn Kathir, oop. cit., III, 145 ff.

3. Sira, 755-76, 779/II, 328-53, 356, etc. More on Khaybar follows below.

4. ibid., 776/II, 353-4.

5. ibid., 668-84/II, 214-33.

6. ibid., 684-700/II, 233-54.

7. ibid., 689/II, 240; `Uyun al-athar (Cairo, 1356 A.H.), II, 73; Ibn Kathir, II, 239.

8. In his introduction to `Uyun al-athar, I, 7, Ibn Sayyid al-Nas (d. 734 A.H.), having explained his plan for his biography of the Prophet, expressly states that his main source was Ibn Ishaq, who indeed was the chief source for everyone.

9. Tahdhib al-tahdhib, IX, 45. See also `Uyun al-athar, I, 17, where the author uses the same words, without giving a reference, in his introduction on the veracity of Ibn Ishaq and the criteria he applied.

10. d. 179.

11. `Uyun al-athar, I, 12.

12. ibid, I, 16.

13. Sira, 691-2/II, 242, 244; `Uyun al-athar, II, 74, 75.

14. Ibn Sayyid al-Nas (op. cit., I, 121) makes precisely this point in relation to the story of the Banu Qaynuqa' and the spurious verse which was said to have appeared in Sura LIII of the Qur'an and at the time was taken by polytheist Meccans as a recognition of their deities. The author explains how various scholars disposed of the problem and then sums up by stating that in his view, this story is to be treated on the same level as tales of the maghazi and accounts of the Sira (i.e. not to be accorded unqualified acceptance). Most scholars, he asserts, usually treated more liberally questions of minor importance and any material which did not involve a point of law, such as stories of the maghazi and similar reports. In such cases data would be accepted which would not be acceptable as a basis of deciding what is lawful or unlawful.

15. See n. 18 below.

16. Tabari, Tarikh, I, 1499 (where the reference is to al-Waqidi, Maghazi, II, 513); Zad al-ma`ad (ed. T. A. Taha, Cairo, 1970), II, 82; Ibn Kathir, op. cit., IV, 118.

17. On this see W. Arafat, "Early critics of the poetry of the Sira", BSOAS, XXI, 3, 1958, 453-63.

18. Kadhdhab and Dajjal min al-dajajila.

19. `Uyun al-athar, I, 16-7. In his valuable introduction Ibn Sayyid al-Nas provides a wide-ranging survey of the controversial views on Ibn Ishaq. In his full introduction to the Gottingen edition of the Sira, Wustenfeld in turn draws extensively on Ibn Sayyid al-Nas.

20. Tahdhib al-Tahdhib, IX, 45. See also `Uyun al-athar, I, 16-7.

21. ibid.

22. Qur'an, XXXV, 18.

23. Qur'an, XLI, 4.

24. ed. Khalil Muhammad Harras, Cairo, 1388/1968, 241.

25. Significantly, little or no information is to be found in general or special geographical dictionaries, such as al-Bakri's, Mu`jam ma'sta`jam; al-Fairuzabadi's al-Maghanim al-mutaba fi ma`alim taba (ed. Hamad al-Jasir, Dar al-Yamama, 1389/1969); Six treatises (Rasa'il fi tarikh al-Madina ed. Hamad al-Jasir, Dar al-Yamama, 1392/1972); al-Samhudi, Wafa' al-wafa' bi-akhbar dar al-Mustafa (Cairo, 1326), etc. Even al-Samhudi seems to regard a mention of the market-place in question as a mere historical reference, for in his extensive historical topography of Medina he identifies the market-place (p. 544) almost casually in the course of explaining the change in nomenclature which had overtaken adjacent landmarks. That market-place, he says, is the one referred to in the report (sic) that the Prophet brought out the prisoners of Banu Qurayza to the market-place of Medina, etc.

26. p. 247. I am indebted to my friend Professor Mahmud Ghul of the American University, Beirut, for bringing this reference to my attention.

27. d. 157/774. See EI2, sub nomine.

28. Sira, 689/II, 240; al-Waqidi, op. cit., 512.

29. Sira, 689/II, 240; Ibn Kathir, op. cit., III, 238.

30. e.g., Nasab Quraysh (ed. A. S. Harun, Cairo, 1962), 340.

31. op. cit., II, 634, 684.

32. op. cit., III, 415.

33. A. Guillaume, Islam (Harmondsworth, 1956), 10-11.

34. De bello Judaico, I, 4, 6.

35. ibid., VII, 9, 1.

36. ibid., VII, 10, 1.

37. Sira, 685-6/II, 235-6.

38. Sira, 352, 396/I, 514, 567.

39. The Times, 18 August 1973; and The Guardian, 20 August 1973.

I praise the Lord I don't have to proclaim that the books I follow to be loaded with lies, and the Imam's full of crap, just to run and hide from the truth about Muhammad being a mass murdering, child doing, female prisoner raping, terrorist thief. Your brethren certainly don't deny it Muj. They'd probably be happy to cut your head off if they caught you trying to make what they consider to be one of the proudest moments in Islamic history go away.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza

In the 8th and early 9th century many Muslim jurists, such as Ash-Shafii, based their judgments and decrees supporting collective punishment for treachery on the accounts of the demise of the Qurayza, with which they were well acquainted.[72]

The Qur'an briefly refers to the incident in Surah 33:26[18] and Muslim jurists have looked upon Surah 8:55-58 as a justification of the treatment of the Banu Qurayza, arguing that the Qurayza broke their pact with Muhammad, and thus Muhammad was justified in repudiating his side of the pact and killing the Qurayza en masse.[50]

Arab Muslim theologians and historians[who?] have either viewed the incident as "the punishment of the Medina Jews, who were invited to convert and refused, perfectly exemplify the Quran's tales of what happened to those who rejected the prophets of old" or offered a political, rather than religious, explanation.[71]

PeteWaldo

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Re: Re: Question for Mujaheed
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2014, 12:50:27 PM »
THE HADITH OF BUKHARI IS CORROBORATED, Checked and AUTHENTICATED.

Then you have no choice but to believe that Muhammad and his boys were female prisoner rapists, just as Bukhari's Hadith indicates in the prior post at this link.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3993.msg16219#msg16219

The only other choice would be to suggest that a woman would DESIRE to practice "coitus interruptus" with the very men who conquered them and murdered their husbands.

Mujaheed

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Re: Re: Re: Question for Mujaheed
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2014, 08:10:32 AM »
THE HADITH OF BUKHARI IS CORROBORATED, Checked and AUTHENTICATED.

Then you have no choice but to believe that Muhammad and his boys were female prisoner rapists, just as Bukhari's Hadith indicates in the prior post at this link.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3993.msg16219#msg16219

The only other choice would be to suggest that a woman would DESIRE to practice "coitus interruptus" with the very men who conquered them and murdered their husbands.

DOES THE HADITH SAY RAPE??????

DO such foul words emanate from your mouth?????

Is it your conjecture as the Quran say that you do, proving that you are one of the conjecturers??

Are you perverted???? Speculating on the very act of sexual intercourse.

The Hadith and the advice of the Prophet is exactly what mankind needs (not confined to lIBERAL SO CALLED CAPITALISTIC DEMOCKERIES!!!)

The alternatives of Brothels and prostitutes and illicit sex and extramarital affairs condoned by the CHRISTIANS in MAJORITY CHRISTIANS COUNTRIES CANNOT be compared to the wisdom of captive slaves. You don't have slavery, you prefer homelessness in your countries, starving drunks that eventually become criminals for not having money.

The Prophet Muhammad outlawed cruelty of every form to very living thing especially human beings.

WHAT HAPPENS TO WOMEN AND ORPHANS AFTER A WAR??? Please quote biblical scripture for sound advice on the treatment that is both economically realistic and just.

PeteWaldo

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Re: Re: Re: Question for Mujaheed
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2014, 08:29:53 AM »
THE HADITH OF BUKHARI IS CORROBORATED, Checked and AUTHENTICATED.

Then you have no choice but to believe that Muhammad and his boys were female prisoner rapists, just as Bukhari's Hadith indicates in the prior post at this link.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3993.msg16219#msg16219

The only other choice would be to suggest that a woman would DESIRE to practice "coitus interruptus" with the very men who conquered them and murdered their husbands.

DOES THE HADITH SAY RAPE??????

DO such foul words emanate from your mouth?????

Rape is not a foul word. Rape is a term that is used to describe women being forced to have sex, with someone they do not desire to have sex with. To describe the act of a man forcing himself on a woman.

Is it your conjecture as the Quran say that you do, proving that you are one of the conjecturers??

Are you perverted???? Speculating on the very act of sexual intercourse.

The Hadith removed any speculation when it used the term "coitus interruptus".
Are you going to suggest that female prisoners would DESIRE to have sex, with the very men that killed their husbands, and captured them?

Quit avoiding this question. Do you believe those women DESIRED to engage in "coitus interruptus" with their captors?

Mujaheed

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Re: Re: Question for Mujaheed
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2014, 02:53:20 PM »
THE HADITH OF BUKHARI IS CORROBORATED, Checked and AUTHENTICATED.

Then you have no choice but to believe that Muhammad and his boys were female prisoner rapists, just as Bukhari's Hadith indicates in the prior post at this link.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3993.msg16219#msg16219

The only other choice would be to suggest that a woman would DESIRE to practice "coitus interruptus" with the very men who conquered them and murdered their husbands.

DOES THE HADITH SAY RAPE??????

DO such foul words emanate from your mouth?????

Rape is not a foul word. Rape is a term that is used to describe women being forced to have sex, with someone they do not desire to have sex with. To describe the act of a man forcing himself on a woman.

Is it your conjecture as the Quran say that you do, proving that you are one of the conjecturers??

Are you perverted???? Speculating on the very act of sexual intercourse.

The Hadith removed any speculation when it used the term "coitus interruptus".
Are you going to suggest that female prisoners would DESIRE to have sex, with the very men that killed their husbands, and captured them?

Quit avoiding this question. Do you believe those women DESIRED to engage in "coitus interruptus" with their captors?

ARE YOU GOING TO SUGGEST THAT YOU KNOW HOW THEY FELT??????

ARE YOU GOING TO VENTURE A GUESS AS TO THE FEMALE ATTITUDES AND BELIEFS IN THE TIME OF THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD????

ARE YOU CONJECTURING AGAIN AS USUAL AS TO WHAT THE CIRCUMSTANCES AND FAITH THE WOMEN HAD???? MAYBE SOME OF THEM HATED THEIR HUSBANDS MAYBE SOME OF THE VIRGINS WANTED TO EXPERIENCE IT. WE DONT KNOW AND WHO SAID THEY WERE RAPED????? YOU GUESSING AT BEST

WHAT THEY DESIRED IS A SPECULATIVE ANSWER, WE ARE DEALING HERE IN TRUTH. TRAGIC AS THEIR CIRCUMSTANCES MAY HAVE BEEN IT STILL DOES NOT WARRANT OUR SPECULATION AND CONJECTURE ON THE TREATMENT THEY RECEIVED BY THE COMPANIONS OF THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD>

PeteWaldo

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Re: Re: Question for Mujaheed
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2014, 10:58:27 AM »
THE HADITH OF BUKHARI IS CORROBORATED, Checked and AUTHENTICATED.

Then you have no choice but to believe that Muhammad and his boys were female prisoner rapists, just as Bukhari's Hadith indicates in the prior post at this link.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3993.msg16219#msg16219

The only other choice would be to suggest that a woman would DESIRE to practice "coitus interruptus" with the very men who conquered them and murdered their husbands.

DOES THE HADITH SAY RAPE??????

DO such foul words emanate from your mouth?????

Rape is not a foul word. Rape is a term that is used to describe women being forced to have sex, with someone they do not desire to have sex with. To describe the act of a man forcing himself on a woman.

Is it your conjecture as the Quran say that you do, proving that you are one of the conjecturers??

Are you perverted???? Speculating on the very act of sexual intercourse.

The Hadith removed any speculation when it used the term "coitus interruptus".
Are you going to suggest that female prisoners would DESIRE to have sex, with the very men that killed their husbands, and captured them?

Quit avoiding this question. Do you believe those women DESIRED to engage in "coitus interruptus" with their captors?

ARE YOU GOING TO SUGGEST THAT YOU KNOW HOW THEY FELT??????

Are you going to suggest that a woman whose husband, little son, father and grandfather were beheaded, and her little daughter raped and/or sold off into slavery, would DESIRE to have sex with the very men responsible for that?

ARE YOU GOING TO VENTURE A GUESS AS TO THE FEMALE ATTITUDES AND BELIEFS IN THE TIME OF THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD????

So you are going to suggest that because it was the 7th century AD (when mankind had been highly civilized for many centuries), that a woman would DESIRE to have sex with the very men responsible for beheading her husband, little son, father and grandfather, and raping her little daughters and/or selling them off into slavery?

ARE YOU CONJECTURING AGAIN AS USUAL AS TO WHAT THE CIRCUMSTANCES AND FAITH THE WOMEN HAD????

Your own books and history tell us they were Jews. Why would you call that conjecture? Muhammad claiming the most beautiful Jew for himself:
http://www.petewaldo.com/banu_qurayza_massacre.htm

Tabari VIII:38 "The Prophet selected for himself from among the Jewish women of the Qurayza, Rayhanah bt. Amr. She became his concubine. When he predeceased her, she was still in his possession. When the Messenger of Allah took her as a captive, she showed herself averse to Islam and insisted on Judaism."

Would a woman desire to have sexual relations with the man responsible for beheading her husband and father? Let alone that Rayhanah was a Jew and Mohammed was a gentile that was still in the process of inventing his unique religion.

Ishaq:466 "The Apostle chose one of the Jewish women for himself. Her name was Rayhana. She remained with him until she died, in his power. The Apostle proposed to marry her and put the veil on her but she said, 'Leave me under your power, for that will be easier.' She showed a repugnance towards Islam when she was captured."

MAYBE SOME OF THEM HATED THEIR HUSBANDS MAYBE SOME OF THE VIRGINS WANTED TO EXPERIENCE IT. WE DONT KNOW AND WHO SAID THEY WERE RAPED????? YOU GUESSING AT BEST

I want to thank you for this very instructive lesson regarding the Muslim male mind and women as little more than chattel. Just as prophesied:

Daniel 11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. 38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not...

WHAT THEY DESIRED IS A SPECULATIVE ANSWER, WE ARE DEALING HERE IN TRUTH. TRAGIC AS THEIR CIRCUMSTANCES MAY HAVE BEEN .........

Why would you call it tragic when you are suggesting that those women may have desired to have sex with the men responsible for beheading their husbands, little sons, dads, brothers and grandpas, and their little daughters would have desired to have sex with those responsible for beheading their brothers, dads, grandpas, husbands, and raping their moms and sisters?

....... IT STILL DOES NOT WARRANT OUR SPECULATION AND CONJECTURE ON THE TREATMENT THEY RECEIVED BY THE COMPANIONS OF THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD>

Fortunately we don't have to speculate about how they treated the female "captives" or "booty" that they raped in their conquests of the Jewish tribes of Medina:

(1) Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: that while he was sitting with Allah's Apostle he said, "O Allah's Apostle! We get female captives as our share of booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interrupt us?" The Prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do it. No soul that which Allah has destined to exist, but will surely come into existence.  (Book #34, Hadith #432)

(2) Narrated Ibn Muhairiz: I saw Abu Said and asked him about coitus interruptus. Abu Said said, "We went with Allah's Apostle, in the Ghazwa of Barli Al-Mustaliq and we captured some of the 'Arabs as captives, and the long separation from our wives was pressing us hard and we wanted to practice coitus interruptus. We asked Allah's Apostle (whether it was permissible). He said, "It is better for you not to do so. No soul, (that which Allah has) destined to exist, up to the Day of Resurrection, but will definitely come, into existence."  (Book #46, Hadith #718)

(3) Narrated Ibn Muhairiz: I entered the Mosque and saw Abu Said Al-Khudri and sat beside him and asked him about Al-Azl (i.e. coitus interruptus). Abu Said said, "We went out with Allah's Apostle for the Ghazwa of Banu Al-Mustaliq and we received captives from among the Arab captives and we desired women and celibacy became hard on us and we loved to do coitus interruptus. So when we intended to do coitus interrupt us, we said, 'How can we do coitus interruptus before asking Allah's Apostle who is present among us?" We asked (him) about it and he said, 'It is better for you not to do so, for if any soul (till the Day of Resurrection) is predestined to exist, it will exist."  (Book #59, Hadith #459)

(6) Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: We got female captives in the war booty and we used to do coitus interruptus with them. So we asked Allah's Apostle about it and he said, "Do you really do that?" repeating the question thrice, "There is no soul that is destined to exist but will come into existence, till the Day of Resurrection."  (Book #62, Hadith #137)

(7) Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: That while he was sitting with the Prophet a man from the Ansar came and said, "O Allah's Apostle! We get slave girls from the war captives and we love property; what do you think about coitus interruptus?" Allah's Apostle said, "Do you do that? It is better for you not to do it, for there is no soul which Allah has ordained to come into existence but will be created."  (Book #77, Hadith #600)

(8) Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: That during the battle with Bani Al-Mustaliq they (Muslims) captured some females and intended to have sexual relation with them without impregnating them. So they asked the Prophet about coitus interrupt us. The Prophet said, "It is better that you should not do it, for Allah has written whom He is going to create till the Day of Resurrection." Qaza'a said, "I heard Abu Sa'id saying that the Prophet said, 'No soul is ordained to be created but Allah will create it."  (Book #93, Hadith #506)