Gary Miller's "Islam for Christians" promotes THE false prophet Muhammad's Islam

[PeteWaldo]

On yet another dissimulator's website, I found one of his heroes listed was Gary Miller, whom I had never heard of. So a little search produced his site "Islam for Christians":
http://www.islamforchristians.com/gary-miller-man-challenged-quran/

The website invited me to a live chat session, with a flashing "CHAT ONLINE" button, through which I very much appreciated the opportunity to engage. The chat went:

Please wait for a site adviser to respond.

You are now chatting with 'Fahad'

Fahad: Hello. Welcome to our live chat.

Fahad: How can I assist you today?

you: Hi Fahad, my name is John

Fahad: hi

you: I wonder if you could direct me to a body of historical and archaeological evidence that suggests that Mecca existed prior to the 4th century AD. That is the kind of historical and archaeological evidence we have for other ancient Arabian towns.

Fahad: i do not know about any particular archaelogical study regarding it.

you: How about historical?

Fahad: perhaps there is some study regarding it, which i am not familiar with it

you: You seem to be confirming, what is hard to deny as fact, that Mecca did not exist prior to the 4th century AD.

Fahad: historical information is there in many of the books of history

Fahad: no, i said i do not know about the archealogical findings

Fahad: books of history are there

Fahad: infact, let me ask you

Fahad: are you a christian?

you: I am referring to actual historical record of Mecca, outside of Islamic "tradition" that was all put to the pen in the 8th to 10th centuries AD, so many centuries after the fact.

you: Yes I am a Christian

Fahad: in that case

Fahad: Quran gives another name of Makkah, which is bakkah

Fahad: and this bakkah is mentioned in the bible as a place of pilgrimage and spring (water)

you: I am familiar with Ahmed Deedat's dissimulation to which you are beginning to allude. But have you actually ever read the passage for yourself?

Fahad: Psalms 84

Fahad: How lovely is Your dwelling-place, O Lord of Hosts. I long, I yearn for the courts of the Lord; my body and soul shout for joy to the living God ... Happy are those who dwell in Your house; they forever praise You. Happy is the man who finds refuge in You, whose mind is on the [pilgrim] highways. They pass through the Valley of Baca, regarding it as a place of springs, as if the early rain had covered it with blessing ... Better one day in Your courts than a thousand [anywhere else]; I would rather stand at the threshold of God's house than dwell in the tents of the wicked

Fahad: this is exactly what islam says about Makkah

Fahad: and also calls it Bakkah in the Quran

you: Didn't you ever wonder what is in the places that you substituted with the .......s?

Fahad: it is very clear isnt it?

Fahad: yet you would not accept this stark reality

Fahad: how close can this linkage be?

Fahad: not more than this

Fahad: so shoudnt you accept this clear linkage between what prophet Muhammad brought and what other prophets brought

you: The "stark reality" would seem to be how you were deceived, my friend: 84:7 They go from strength to strength, [every one of them] IN ZION appeareth before God.

Fahad: it is the light from the same candle

Fahad: you are presenting it word for word as if your bible is preserved word for word

Fahad: which is not the case

Fahad: and you know that

you: "IN ZION", a pilgrimmage to THE Holy Land of the prophets and patriarchs where YHWH had His people built a temple to Him, the temple mount of which still stands today.

Fahad: thats what you believe

Fahad: we believe this was always the house of God

Fahad: and thats what it mentions

Fahad: the house of lord

Fahad: as described in the Quran

Fahad: by the name of "baitullah

you: My friend, it isn't about what I believe but what the very verse that you chose to quote SAYS. IN ZION.

Fahad: however, you would not accept the Quran which is preseved

Fahad: and take the bible which has versions and versions and things that you are not even sure of

Fahad: how can i help you with this

Fahad: if you fail to accept

Fahad: so dont waste my time

Fahad: Thank you for giving us this opportunity to assist you.

Fahad: Have a nice day.

Chat session has ended. Thank you for giving us this opportunity to assist you.

You are not currently in a chat session.
________________________

I didn't even get a chance to post my last comment which was:

Tell me, does it make sense to you that the Old Testament saints would turn their backs on their temple that YHWH had them build in Jerusalem, to wander 1400 kilometers off into the Arabian desert?

[PeteWaldo]

Next attempt:

Please wait for a site adviser to respond.

You are now chatting with 'Fahad'

Fahad: Hello. Welcome to our live chat.

Fahad: How can I assist you today?

Chat session has ended. Thank you for giving us this opportunity to assist you.
_________________

Apparently a cookie ended the chat, without giving me an opportunity to ask my last question.

[PeteWaldo]

We welcome Gary Miller to come and answer the following question:

Gary, does Fahad's suggestion that Psalms 84, rather than being about YHWH's people going on pilgrimage to their temple that He had them build on the temple mount in IN ZION, in Jerusalem, in THE Holy Land of the prophets and patriarchs, was instead about their wandering across 1400 kilometers of harsh, dry, barren desert wasteland to march around the Quraish's Kaaba in Mecca, over two thousand years before the Quraish built the Kaaba in the 5th century AD, over a thousand years before the historical record tells us there was a caravan route along the Red Sea in Arabia?

[PeteWaldo]

Fahad: How lovely is Your dwelling-place, O Lord of Hosts. I long, I yearn for the courts of the Lord; my body and soul shout for joy to the living God ... Happy are those who dwell in Your house; they forever praise You. Happy is the man who finds refuge in You, whose mind is on the [pilgrim] highways. They pass through the Valley of Baca, regarding it as a place of springs, as if the early rain had covered it with blessing ... Better one day in Your courts than a thousand [anywhere else]; I would rather stand at the threshold of God's house than dwell in the tents of the wicked

I finally found the version that they abuse in The Jewish Study Bible: Jewish Publication Society Tanakh Translation at this link:

So let's investigate the passage and put in bold font that which was omitted in this classic exercise in Islamic dissimulation, by the parrots of Greek sophist styled entertainers and masters of the lie like Ahmed Deedat and his self-described disciple "Dr." Zakir Naik and others like Yousuf Estes all of whom peddle this big lie with which they dupe their sorely deceived Bible-ignorant adoring minions:

2. How lovely is Your dwelling-place, O Lord of Hosts.
3: I long, I yearn for the courts of the LORD; my body and soul shout for joy to the living God.
4: Even the sparrow has found a home, and the swallow a nest for herself in which to set her young, near Your altar, O LORD of hosts, my king and my God.
5: Happy are those who dwell in Your house; they forever praise You. Selah.
6: Happy is the man who finds refuge in You, whose mind is on the [pilgrim] highways.
7: They pass through the Valley of Baca, regarding it as a place of springs, as if the early rain had covered it with blessing.
8:  They go from rampart to rampart, appearing before God in Zion.
9: O Lord, God of hosts, hear my prayer; give ear, O God of Jacob.
10: O God, behold our shield, look upon the face of Your anointed.
11: Better one day in Your courts than a thousand [anywhere else]; I would rather stand at the threshold of God’s house than dwell in the tents of the wicked.
12: For the Lord God is sun and shield; the Lord bestows grace and glory; He does not withhold His bounty from those who llive without blame.
13: O LORD of hosts, happy is the man who trusts in You.

[PeteWaldo]

Side by side comparison of the Muslim dissimulation first, and the parts they left out, in bold font in the second passage:

"How lovely is Your dwelling-place, O Lord of Hosts. I long, I yearn for the courts of the Lord; my body and soul shout for joy to the living God ..... Happy are those who dwell in Your house; they forever praise You. Happy is the man who finds refuge in You, whose mind is on the [pilgrim] highways. They pass through the Valley of Baca, regarding it as a place of springs, as if the early rain had covered it with blessing ..... Better one day in Your courts than a thousand [anywhere else]; I would rather stand at the threshold of God's house than dwell in the tents of the wicked."

"How lovely is Your dwelling-place, O Lord of Hosts. I long, I yearn for the courts of the LORD; my body and soul shout for joy to the living God. Even the sparrow has found a home, and the swallow a nest for herself in which to set her young, near Your altar, O LORD of hosts, my king and my God. Happy are those who dwell in Your house; they forever praise You. Selah. Happy is the man who finds refuge in You, whose mind is on the [pilgrim] highways. They pass through the Valley of Baca, regarding it as a place of springs, as if the early rain had covered it with blessing. They go from rampart to rampart, appearing before God in Zion. O Lord, God of hosts, hear my prayer; give ear, O God of Jacob. O God, behold our shield, look upon the face of Your anointed. Better one day in Your courts than a thousand [anywhere else]; I would rather stand at the threshold of God’s house than dwell in the tents of the wicked."

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Psa&c=84&t=KJV#s=t_bibles_562007

[Mike S]

We welcome Gary Miller to come and answer the following question:

Gary, does Fahad's suggestion that Psalms 84, rather than being about YHWH's people going on pilgrimage to their temple that He had them build on the temple mount in IN ZION, in Jerusalem, in THE Holy Land of the prophets and patriarchs, was instead about their wandering across 1400 kilometers of harsh, dry, barren desert wasteland to march around the Quraish's Kaaba in Mecca, over two thousand years before the Quraish built the Kaaba in the 5th century AD, over a thousand years before the historical record tells us there was a caravan route along the Red Sea in Arabia?

Whatcha wanna bet that Gary Miller is actually Fahad?

[PeteWaldo]

We welcome Gary Miller to come and answer the following question:

Gary, does Fahad's suggestion that Psalms 84, rather than being about YHWH's people going on pilgrimage to their temple that He had them build on the temple mount in IN ZION, in Jerusalem, in THE Holy Land of the prophets and patriarchs, was instead about their wandering across 1400 kilometers of harsh, dry, barren desert wasteland to march around the Quraish's Kaaba in Mecca, over two thousand years before the Quraish built the Kaaba in the 5th century AD, over a thousand years before the historical record tells us there was a caravan route along the Red Sea in Arabia?

Whatcha wanna bet that Gary Miller is actually Fahad?

No need to speculate on that since Mr. Miller (who renamed himself Abdul-Ahad) has an open invitation to come and defend the claim that Fahad presumably made on Mr. Miller's behalf, that is also perpetrated by famous Greek sophist styled entertainers and masters of deception like Ahmed Deedat, "Dr." Zakir Naik and Yusuf Estes against their unsuspecting, trusting, Bible-ignorant and geography-challenged minions.

I was pleased that this most recent exercise in this subject led me to the exact source of the Tanach version, that is parroted in Wikipedia and perhaps hundreds of websites and so many YouTube channels, in their transparently preposterous exercise in Islamic dissimulation/taqiyyah.
http://www.historyofmecca.com/baca_mecca.htm

[PeteWaldo]

A Muslim made the mistake of posting Gary Miller in the Topix Islam forum.
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/islam/T6RJ2FBDVMEJ3BVMT#lastPost