Split and retitled: Islam on Abraham, Hagar and Ishmael

[PeteWaldo]

The area where Mecca was eventually settled was an empty desert wasteland prior to the 4th century AD.
If you have a single shred of historical or archaeological evidence that suggests otherwise please present it.
Otherwise I recommend you avail youself of the papers written by a scholar who studied the subject full-time for over 20 years:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1138.0
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1132.0

Please don't take our word for it. ASK YOUR IMAM for evidence that suggests habitation of the area prior to the 4th century AD when immigrants from Yemen INITIALLY settled the area.

Response: The Qur'an was revealed in the 6th century. So referring to before the 4th century A.D. is another moot point.

Not when you've been taught all the demograhpically and geographically impossible nonsense about Abraham, Hagar or ishmael ever having been within 1,000 kilometers of it! Let alone that they lived over a thousand years before the first caravan route was established along the Red Sea in Arabia.
http://www.historyofmecca.com/geography_mecca_islam.htm

[Al-Fatihah]

Not when you've been taught all the demograhpically and geographically impossible nonsense about Abraham, Hagar or ishmael ever having been within 1,000 kilometers of it! Let alone that they lived over a thousand years before the first caravan route was established along the Red Sea in Arabia.
http://www.historyofmecca.com/geography_mecca_islam.htm

Response: Yet your own Bible says otherwise:

Deuteronomy 33:2 says someone is coming from mount Paran with 10,000 saints with a new law. When you refer to history, that is Muhammad (saw) at the battle of the Trench. Now where is Paran?

Isaiah 21:13-16 says a Calamity will fall on ARABIA and the glory of Kedar will fall. In Genesis 25:13 Kedar is mentioned as the Son of Ishmael. In Genesis 21:21 Ishmael is living in the wilderness of Paran.

So to recap. Since Kedar is in Arabia, and Kedar is the son of Ishmael, and Ishmael lives in the wilderness of Paran, then Paran and the descendants of Ishmael were also  in Arabia. And who in history came from Paran in Arabia, leading an army of 10,000?

Muhammad ibn Abdullah (saw).

So not only does your Bible prove that Abraham's descendents lived in Arabia, but also just proved Muhammad is a Prophet from your own Bible.

Try again.

[PeteWaldo]

Not when you've been taught all the demograhpically and geographically impossible nonsense about Abraham, Hagar or ishmael ever having been within 1,000 kilometers of it! Let alone that they lived over a thousand years before the first caravan route was established along the Red Sea in Arabia.
http://www.historyofmecca.com/geography_mecca_islam.htm

Response: Yet your own Bible says otherwise:

Deuteronomy 33:2 says someone is coming from mount Paran with 10,000 saints with a new law. When you refer to history, that is Muhammad (saw) at the battle of the Trench. Now where is Paran?

Isaiah 21:13-16 says a Calamity will fall on ARABIA and the glory of Kedar will fall. In Genesis 25:13 Kedar is mentioned as the Son of Ishmael. In Genesis 21:21 Ishmael is living in the wilderness of Paran.

So to recap. Since Kedar is in Arabia, and Kedar is the son of Ishmael, and Ishmael lives in the wilderness of Paran, then Paran and the descendants of Ishmael were also  in Arabia.

Located in Arabia, about a thousand kilometers away from the area, where Mecca was initially settled over 2,000 years later. As always, abject ignorance to scripture, history and geography are a prerequisite of following the false prophet Muhammad.
http://www.historyofmecca.com/geography_mecca_islam.htm#zamzam



If they inhabited the area lower than the "fertile crescent" described by that bowed line, they would have been tending their flocks on pasture that would have looked like this Syrian desert photo:

[PeteWaldo]

And who in history came from Paran in Arabia, leading an army of 10,000?

Here is the reason Islam's liars never quote the first verse of this passage:

Deu 33:1 And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death. 2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

That "came" is in the past tense of Moses' day.
More on this specific subject of the 10,000 at this link:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1656.0

The Ishmaelites are the "children of the flesh" according to scripture:
http://www.petewaldo.com/children_flesh.htm

That's why you prostrate yourself toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca five times a day:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1050.0

It's why you are obligated to travel to it, and march around it seven times, as the Arabian pagan's did in moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship, before Muhammad was ever born:
http://www.petewaldo.com/hajj_umrah.htm#index

Muhammad ibn Abdullah (saw).

So not only does your Bible prove that Abraham's descendents lived in Arabia, but also just proved Muhammad is a Prophet from your own Bible.

Try again.

But as you can now see from your geography lesson that is absolutely sheer preposterous, and sadly and tragically more than anything, wishful, but geographically impossible false presumption [in regard to Mecca].

[Al-Fatihah]

Not when you've been taught all the demograhpically and geographically impossible nonsense about Abraham, Hagar or ishmael ever having been within 1,000 kilometers of it! Let alone that they lived over a thousand years before the first caravan route was established along the Red Sea in Arabia.
http://www.historyofmecca.com/geography_mecca_islam.htm

Response: Yet your own Bible says otherwise:

Deuteronomy 33:2 says someone is coming from mount Paran with 10,000 saints with a new law. When you refer to history, that is Muhammad (saw) at the battle of the Trench. Now where is Paran?

Isaiah 21:13-16 says a Calamity will fall on ARABIA and the glory of Kedar will fall. In Genesis 25:13 Kedar is mentioned as the Son of Ishmael. In Genesis 21:21 Ishmael is living in the wilderness of Paran.

So to recap. Since Kedar is in Arabia, and Kedar is the son of Ishmael, and Ishmael lives in the wilderness of Paran, then Paran and the descendants of Ishmael were also  in Arabia.

Located in Arabia, about a thousand kilometers away from the area, where Mecca was initially settled over 2,000 years later. As always, abject ignorance to scripture, history and geography are a prerequisite of following the false prophet Muhammad.
http://www.historyofmecca.com/geography_mecca_islam.htm#zamzam



If they inhabited the area lower than the "fertile crescent" described by that bowed line, they would have been tending their flocks on pasture that would have looked like this Syrian desert photo:

Response: Then your own Bible is false and ignorant since in it we read in Deuteronomy 33:2 that someone is coming from mount Paran with 10,000 saints with a new law. When you refer to history, that is Muhammad (saw) at the battle of the Trench. Now where is Paran?

Isaiah 21:13-16 says a Calamity will fall on ARABIA and the glory of Kedar will fall. In Genesis 25:13 Kedar is mentioned as the Son of Ishmael. In Genesis 21:21 Ishmael is living in the wilderness of Paran.

So to recap. Since Kedar is in Arabia, and Kedar is the son of Ishmael, and Ishmael lives in the wilderness of Paran, then Paran and the descendants of Ishmael were also  in Arabia.

And who in history is said to come from Paran in Arabia with 10,000 followers as stated in your own Bible? Muhammad ibn Abdullah (saw).

So not only does your Bible prove that Abraham's descendants lived in Arabia, but also just proved Muhammad is a Prophet from your own Bible.

Your map is just a picture of land, while your Bible tells us the descendants of Ishmael lived in that land, which is Arabia.

Try again.

[Al-Fatihah]

And who in history came from Paran in Arabia, leading an army of 10,000?

Here is the reason Islam's liars never quote the first verse of this passage:

Deu 33:1 And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death. 2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

That "came" is in the past tense of Moses' day.
More on this specific subject of the 10,000 at this link:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1656.0

The Ishmaelites are the "children of the flesh" according to scripture:
http://www.petewaldo.com/children_flesh.htm

That's why you prostrate yourself toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca five times a day:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1050.0

It's why you are obligated to travel to it, and march around it seven times, as the Arabian pagan's did in moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship, before Muhammad was ever born:
http://www.petewaldo.com/hajj_umrah.htm#index

Muhammad ibn Abdullah (saw).

So not only does your Bible prove that Abraham's descendents lived in Arabia, but also just proved Muhammad is a Prophet from your own Bible.

Try again.

But as you can now see from your geography lesson that is absolutely sheer preposterous, and sadly and tragically more than anything, wishful, but geographically impossible false presumption.

Response: And this is what Christian liars and deceivers do when it shows their own scripture says Muhammad is a Prophet from Arabia, as Deut. 33:2 makes reference of a man from Paran with 10,000 saints and a law, and we know Paran is in Arabia since Kedar is in Arabia (Isaiah 21: 13-16), who is the son of Ishmael (Genesis 25:13), and Ishmael lived in the Wilderness of Paran (Genesis 21:21).

[PeteWaldo]

And who in history came from Paran in Arabia, leading an army of 10,000?

Here is the reason Islam's liars never quote the first verse of this passage:

Deu 33:1 And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death. 2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

That "came" is in the past tense of Moses' day.
More on this specific subject of the 10,000 at this link:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1656.0

The Ishmaelites are the "children of the flesh" according to scripture:
http://www.petewaldo.com/children_flesh.htm

That's why you prostrate yourself toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca five times a day:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1050.0

It's why you are obligated to travel to it, and march around it seven times, as the Arabian pagan's did in moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship, before Muhammad was ever born:
http://www.petewaldo.com/hajj_umrah.htm#index

Muhammad ibn Abdullah (saw).

So not only does your Bible prove that Abraham's descendents lived in Arabia, but also just proved Muhammad is a Prophet from your own Bible.

Try again.

But as you can now see from your geography lesson that is absolutely sheer preposterous, and sadly and tragically more than anything, wishful, but geographically impossible false presumption.

Response: And this is what Christian liars and deceivers do when it shows their own scripture says Muhammad is a Prophet from Arabia, as Deut. 33:2 makes reference of a man from Paran with 10,000 saints and a law, and we know Paran is in Arabia since Kedar is in Arabia (Isaiah 21: 13-16), who is the son of Ishmael (Genesis 25:13), and Ishmael lived in the Wilderness of Paran (Genesis 21:21).

I even offered you a link to the forum thread so you wouldn't have had to look so foolish. Here is what you otherwise could have learned that I copied and pasted from there, that would have helped prevent you from repeating your blunder. You see my friend, all of those Islamist liars like Ahmed Deedat filled you full of lies from the father of lies himself, through the spirit of antichrist. Let me show you what those con artists leave out:

[/b] Deu 33:1 And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death. 2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. 3 Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words. 4 Moses commanded us a law, even the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob. 5 And he was king in Jeshurun, when the heads of the people and the tribes of Israel were gathered together. 6 Let Reuben live, and not die; and let not his men be few. 7 And this is the blessing of Judah: and he said, Hear, LORD, the voice of Judah, and bring him unto his people: let his hands be sufficient for him; and be thou an help to him from his enemies. 8 And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah; 9 Who said unto his father and to his mother, I have not seen him; neither did he acknowledge his brethren, nor knew his own children: for they have observed thy word, and kept thy covenant. 10 They shall teach Jacob thy judgments, and Israel thy law: they shall put incense before thee, and whole burnt sacrifice upon thine altar. 11 Bless, LORD, his substance, and accept the work of his hands: smite through the loins of them that rise against him, and of them that hate him, that they rise not again. 12 And of Benjamin he said, The beloved of the LORD shall dwell in safety by him; and the LORD shall cover him all the day long, and he shall dwell between his shoulders. 13 And of Joseph he said, Blessed of the LORD be his land, for the precious things of heaven, for the dew, and for the deep that coucheth beneath, 14 And for the precious fruits brought forth by the sun, and for the precious things put forth by the moon, 15 And for the chief things of the ancient mountains, and for the precious things of the lasting hills, 16 And for the precious things of the earth and fulness thereof, and for the good will of him that dwelt in the bush: let the blessing come upon the head of Joseph, and upon the top of the head of him that was separated from his brethren. 17 His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth: and they are the ten thousands of Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manasseh. 18 And of Zebulun he said, Rejoice, Zebulun, in thy going out; and, Issachar, in thy tents. 19 They shall call the people unto the mountain; there they shall offer sacrifices of righteousness: for they shall suck of the abundance of the seas, and of treasures hid in the sand. 20 And of Gad he said, Blessed be he that enlargeth Gad: he dwelleth as a lion, and teareth the arm with the crown of the head. 21 And he provided the first part for himself, because there, in a portion of the lawgiver, was he seated; and he came with the heads of the people, he executed the justice of the LORD, and his judgments with Israel. 22 And of Dan he said, Dan is a lion's whelp: he shall leap from Bashan. 23 And of Naphtali he said, O Naphtali, satisfied with favour, and full with the blessing of the LORD: possess thou the west and the south. 24 And of Asher he said, Let Asher be blessed with children; let him be acceptable to his brethren, and let him dip his foot in oil. 25 Thy shoes shall be iron and brass; and as thy days, so shall thy strength be. 26 There is none like unto the God of Jeshurun, who rideth upon the heaven in thy help, and in his excellency on the sky. 27 The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy them. 28 Israel then shall dwell in safety alone: the fountain of Jacob shall be upon a land of corn and wine; also his heavens shall drop down dew. 29 Happy art thou, O Israel: who is like unto thee, O people saved by the LORD, the shield of thy help, and who is the sword of thy excellency! and thine enemies shall be found liars unto thee; and thou shalt tread upon their high places.

The twelve tribes of Israel are: Reuben, Simeon, Judah, Issachar, Zebulun, Benjamin, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Ephraim and Manasseh.

So there are "ten thousands" of His saints from the tribe of Ephraim alone, not even considering the counts of the rest of the tribes of Israel, let alone that Muhammad's tribe the Quraish didn't come along until thousands of years after the time of when Moses was still alive to give this blessing on the tribes of Israel.[end addition 10-25-14]

Are we really to believe that any of those ten thousands, wandered over a thousand kilometers north from Mecca, over a thousand years before the first caravan route was ever established along the Red Sea, and over 2,000 years before Mecca was ever established in the 4th century AD?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=56.0

[Al-Fatihah]

And who in history came from Paran in Arabia, leading an army of 10,000?

Here is the reason Islam's liars never quote the first verse of this passage:

Deu 33:1 And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death. 2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

That "came" is in the past tense of Moses' day.
More on this specific subject of the 10,000 at this link:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1656.0

The Ishmaelites are the "children of the flesh" according to scripture:
http://www.petewaldo.com/children_flesh.htm

That's why you prostrate yourself toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca five times a day:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1050.0

It's why you are obligated to travel to it, and march around it seven times, as the Arabian pagan's did in moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship, before Muhammad was ever born:
http://www.petewaldo.com/hajj_umrah.htm#index

Muhammad ibn Abdullah (saw).

So not only does your Bible prove that Abraham's descendents lived in Arabia, but also just proved Muhammad is a Prophet from your own Bible.

Try again.

But as you can now see from your geography lesson that is absolutely sheer preposterous, and sadly and tragically more than anything, wishful, but geographically impossible false presumption.

Response: And this is what Christian liars and deceivers do when it shows their own scripture says Muhammad is a Prophet from Arabia, as Deut. 33:2 makes reference of a man from Paran with 10,000 saints and a law, and we know Paran is in Arabia since Kedar is in Arabia (Isaiah 21: 13-16), who is the son of Ishmael (Genesis 25:13), and Ishmael lived in the Wilderness of Paran (Genesis 21:21).

I even offered you a link to the forum thread so you wouldn't have had to look so foolish. Here is what you otherwise could have learned that I copied and pasted, that would have helped prevent you from blundering and looking so foolish. You see my friend, all of those Islamist liars like Ahmed Deedat filled you full of lies from the father of lies himself, through the spirit of antichrist. Let me show you what those con artists leave out:

[/b] Deu 33:1 And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death. 2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. 3 Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words. 4 Moses commanded us a law, even the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob. 5 And he was king in Jeshurun, when the heads of the people and the tribes of Israel were gathered together. 6 Let Reuben live, and not die; and let not his men be few. 7 And this is the blessing of Judah: and he said, Hear, LORD, the voice of Judah, and bring him unto his people: let his hands be sufficient for him; and be thou an help to him from his enemies. 8 And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah; 9 Who said unto his father and to his mother, I have not seen him; neither did he acknowledge his brethren, nor knew his own children: for they have observed thy word, and kept thy covenant. 10 They shall teach Jacob thy judgments, and Israel thy law: they shall put incense before thee, and whole burnt sacrifice upon thine altar. 11 Bless, LORD, his substance, and accept the work of his hands: smite through the loins of them that rise against him, and of them that hate him, that they rise not again. 12 And of Benjamin he said, The beloved of the LORD shall dwell in safety by him; and the LORD shall cover him all the day long, and he shall dwell between his shoulders. 13 And of Joseph he said, Blessed of the LORD be his land, for the precious things of heaven, for the dew, and for the deep that coucheth beneath, 14 And for the precious fruits brought forth by the sun, and for the precious things put forth by the moon, 15 And for the chief things of the ancient mountains, and for the precious things of the lasting hills, 16 And for the precious things of the earth and fulness thereof, and for the good will of him that dwelt in the bush: let the blessing come upon the head of Joseph, and upon the top of the head of him that was separated from his brethren. 17 His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth: and they are the ten thousands of Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manasseh. 18 And of Zebulun he said, Rejoice, Zebulun, in thy going out; and, Issachar, in thy tents. 19 They shall call the people unto the mountain; there they shall offer sacrifices of righteousness: for they shall suck of the abundance of the seas, and of treasures hid in the sand. 20 And of Gad he said, Blessed be he that enlargeth Gad: he dwelleth as a lion, and teareth the arm with the crown of the head. 21 And he provided the first part for himself, because there, in a portion of the lawgiver, was he seated; and he came with the heads of the people, he executed the justice of the LORD, and his judgments with Israel. 22 And of Dan he said, Dan is a lion's whelp: he shall leap from Bashan. 23 And of Naphtali he said, O Naphtali, satisfied with favour, and full with the blessing of the LORD: possess thou the west and the south. 24 And of Asher he said, Let Asher be blessed with children; let him be acceptable to his brethren, and let him dip his foot in oil. 25 Thy shoes shall be iron and brass; and as thy days, so shall thy strength be. 26 There is none like unto the God of Jeshurun, who rideth upon the heaven in thy help, and in his excellency on the sky. 27 The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy them. 28 Israel then shall dwell in safety alone: the fountain of Jacob shall be upon a land of corn and wine; also his heavens shall drop down dew. 29 Happy art thou, O Israel: who is like unto thee, O people saved by the LORD, the shield of thy help, and who is the sword of thy excellency! and thine enemies shall be found liars unto thee; and thou shalt tread upon their high places.

The twelve tribes of Israel are: Reuben, Simeon, Judah, Issachar, Zebulun, Benjamin, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Ephraim and Manasseh.

So there are "ten thousands" of His saints from the tribe of Ephraim alone, not even considering the counts of the rest of the tribes of Israel, let alone that Muhammad's tribe the Quraish didn't come along until thousands of years after the time of when Moses was still alive to give this blessing on the tribes of Israel.[end addition 10-25-14]

Are we really to believe that any of those ten thousands, wandered over a thousand kilometers north from Mecca, over a thousand years before the first caravan route was ever established along the Red Sea, and over 2,000 years before Mecca was ever established in the 4th century AD?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=56.0

Response: Again, we see you quote verse 33:1 of Deuteronomy, instead of verse 33:2, which is what I referred to. So it is YOU leaving out the verse and dodging it. My argument is verse 33:2 and you respond by addressing a completely DIFFERENT verse. That's a strawman. So you fail.

As demonstrated, Muhammad (saw) is a Prophet from Arabia, as Deut. 33:2 makes reference of a man from Paran with 10,000 saints and a law, and we know Paran is in Arabia since Kedar is in Arabia (Isaiah 21: 13-16), who is the son of Ishmael (Genesis 25:13), and Ishmael lived in the Wilderness of Paran (Genesis 21:21).

Try again.

[PeteWaldo]

And who in history came from Paran in Arabia, leading an army of 10,000?

Here is the reason Islam's liars never quote the first verse of this passage:

Deu 33:1 And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death. 2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

That "came" is in the past tense of Moses' day.
More on this specific subject of the 10,000 at this link:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1656.0

The Ishmaelites are the "children of the flesh" according to scripture:
http://www.petewaldo.com/children_flesh.htm

That's why you prostrate yourself toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca five times a day:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1050.0

It's why you are obligated to travel to it, and march around it seven times, as the Arabian pagan's did in moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship, before Muhammad was ever born:
http://www.petewaldo.com/hajj_umrah.htm#index

Muhammad ibn Abdullah (saw).

So not only does your Bible prove that Abraham's descendents lived in Arabia, but also just proved Muhammad is a Prophet from your own Bible.

Try again.

But as you can now see from your geography lesson that is absolutely sheer preposterous, and sadly and tragically more than anything, wishful, but geographically impossible false presumption.

Response: And this is what Christian liars and deceivers do when it shows their own scripture says Muhammad is a Prophet from Arabia, as Deut. 33:2 makes reference of a man from Paran with 10,000 saints and a law, and we know Paran is in Arabia since Kedar is in Arabia (Isaiah 21: 13-16), who is the son of Ishmael (Genesis 25:13), and Ishmael lived in the Wilderness of Paran (Genesis 21:21).

I even offered you a link to the forum thread so you wouldn't have had to look so foolish. Here is what you otherwise could have learned that I copied and pasted from there, that would have helped prevent you from repeating your blunder. You see my friend, all of those Islamist liars like Ahmed Deedat filled you full of lies from the father of lies himself, through the spirit of antichrist. Let me show you what those con artists leave out. Please note "came" as in past tense to Moses' words. Already past at that time:

Deu 33:1 And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death. 2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. 3 Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words. 4 Moses commanded us a law, even the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob. 5 And he was king in Jeshurun, when the heads of the people and the tribes of Israel were gathered together. 6 Let Reuben live, and not die; and let not his men be few. 7 And this is the blessing of Judah: and he said, Hear, LORD, the voice of Judah, and bring him unto his people: let his hands be sufficient for him; and be thou an help to him from his enemies. 8 And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah; 9 Who said unto his father and to his mother, I have not seen him; neither did he acknowledge his brethren, nor knew his own children: for they have observed thy word, and kept thy covenant. 10 They shall teach Jacob thy judgments, and Israel thy law: they shall put incense before thee, and whole burnt sacrifice upon thine altar. 11 Bless, LORD, his substance, and accept the work of his hands: smite through the loins of them that rise against him, and of them that hate him, that they rise not again. 12 And of Benjamin he said, The beloved of the LORD shall dwell in safety by him; and the LORD shall cover him all the day long, and he shall dwell between his shoulders. 13 And of Joseph he said, Blessed of the LORD be his land, for the precious things of heaven, for the dew, and for the deep that coucheth beneath, 14 And for the precious fruits brought forth by the sun, and for the precious things put forth by the moon, 15 And for the chief things of the ancient mountains, and for the precious things of the lasting hills, 16 And for the precious things of the earth and fulness thereof, and for the good will of him that dwelt in the bush: let the blessing come upon the head of Joseph, and upon the top of the head of him that was separated from his brethren. 17 His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth: and they are the ten thousands of Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manasseh. 18 And of Zebulun he said, Rejoice, Zebulun, in thy going out; and, Issachar, in thy tents. 19 They shall call the people unto the mountain; there they shall offer sacrifices of righteousness: for they shall suck of the abundance of the seas, and of treasures hid in the sand. 20 And of Gad he said, Blessed be he that enlargeth Gad: he dwelleth as a lion, and teareth the arm with the crown of the head. 21 And he provided the first part for himself, because there, in a portion of the lawgiver, was he seated; and he came with the heads of the people, he executed the justice of the LORD, and his judgments with Israel. 22 And of Dan he said, Dan is a lion's whelp: he shall leap from Bashan. 23 And of Naphtali he said, O Naphtali, satisfied with favour, and full with the blessing of the LORD: possess thou the west and the south. 24 And of Asher he said, Let Asher be blessed with children; let him be acceptable to his brethren, and let him dip his foot in oil. 25 Thy shoes shall be iron and brass; and as thy days, so shall thy strength be. 26 There is none like unto the God of Jeshurun, who rideth upon the heaven in thy help, and in his excellency on the sky. 27 The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy them. 28 Israel then shall dwell in safety alone: the fountain of Jacob shall be upon a land of corn and wine; also his heavens shall drop down dew. 29 Happy art thou, O Israel: who is like unto thee, O people saved by the LORD, the shield of thy help, and who is the sword of thy excellency! and thine enemies shall be found liars unto thee; and thou shalt tread upon their high places.

The twelve tribes of Israel are: Reuben, Simeon, Judah, Issachar, Zebulun, Benjamin, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Ephraim and Manasseh.

So there are "ten thousands" of His saints from the tribe of Ephraim alone, not even considering the counts of the rest of the tribes of Israel, let alone that Muhammad's tribe the Quraish didn't come along until thousands of years after the time of when Moses was still alive to give this blessing on the tribes of Israel.

Are we really to believe that any of those ten thousands, wandered over a thousand kilometers north from Mecca, over a thousand years before the first caravan route was ever established along the Red Sea, and over 2,000 years before Mecca was ever established in the 4th century AD?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=56.0

[Al-Fatihah]

And who in history came from Paran in Arabia, leading an army of 10,000?

Here is the reason Islam's liars never quote the first verse of this passage:

Deu 33:1 And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death. 2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

That "came" is in the past tense of Moses' day.
More on this specific subject of the 10,000 at this link:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1656.0

The Ishmaelites are the "children of the flesh" according to scripture:
http://www.petewaldo.com/children_flesh.htm

That's why you prostrate yourself toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca five times a day:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1050.0

It's why you are obligated to travel to it, and march around it seven times, as the Arabian pagan's did in moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship, before Muhammad was ever born:
http://www.petewaldo.com/hajj_umrah.htm#index

Muhammad ibn Abdullah (saw).

So not only does your Bible prove that Abraham's descendents lived in Arabia, but also just proved Muhammad is a Prophet from your own Bible.

Try again.

But as you can now see from your geography lesson that is absolutely sheer preposterous, and sadly and tragically more than anything, wishful, but geographically impossible false presumption.

Response: And this is what Christian liars and deceivers do when it shows their own scripture says Muhammad is a Prophet from Arabia, as Deut. 33:2 makes reference of a man from Paran with 10,000 saints and a law, and we know Paran is in Arabia since Kedar is in Arabia (Isaiah 21: 13-16), who is the son of Ishmael (Genesis 25:13), and Ishmael lived in the Wilderness of Paran (Genesis 21:21).

I even offered you a link to the forum thread so you wouldn't have had to look so foolish. Here is what you otherwise could have learned that I copied and pasted from there, that would have helped prevent you from repeating your blunder. You see my friend, all of those Islamist liars like Ahmed Deedat filled you full of lies from the father of lies himself, through the spirit of antichrist. Let me show you what those con artists leave out. Please note "came" as in past tense to Moses' words. Already past at that time:

Deu 33:1 And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death. 2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. 3 Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words. 4 Moses commanded us a law, even the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob. 5 And he was king in Jeshurun, when the heads of the people and the tribes of Israel were gathered together. 6 Let Reuben live, and not die; and let not his men be few. 7 And this is the blessing of Judah: and he said, Hear, LORD, the voice of Judah, and bring him unto his people: let his hands be sufficient for him; and be thou an help to him from his enemies. 8 And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah; 9 Who said unto his father and to his mother, I have not seen him; neither did he acknowledge his brethren, nor knew his own children: for they have observed thy word, and kept thy covenant. 10 They shall teach Jacob thy judgments, and Israel thy law: they shall put incense before thee, and whole burnt sacrifice upon thine altar. 11 Bless, LORD, his substance, and accept the work of his hands: smite through the loins of them that rise against him, and of them that hate him, that they rise not again. 12 And of Benjamin he said, The beloved of the LORD shall dwell in safety by him; and the LORD shall cover him all the day long, and he shall dwell between his shoulders. 13 And of Joseph he said, Blessed of the LORD be his land, for the precious things of heaven, for the dew, and for the deep that coucheth beneath, 14 And for the precious fruits brought forth by the sun, and for the precious things put forth by the moon, 15 And for the chief things of the ancient mountains, and for the precious things of the lasting hills, 16 And for the precious things of the earth and fulness thereof, and for the good will of him that dwelt in the bush: let the blessing come upon the head of Joseph, and upon the top of the head of him that was separated from his brethren. 17 His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth: and they are the ten thousands of Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manasseh. 18 And of Zebulun he said, Rejoice, Zebulun, in thy going out; and, Issachar, in thy tents. 19 They shall call the people unto the mountain; there they shall offer sacrifices of righteousness: for they shall suck of the abundance of the seas, and of treasures hid in the sand. 20 And of Gad he said, Blessed be he that enlargeth Gad: he dwelleth as a lion, and teareth the arm with the crown of the head. 21 And he provided the first part for himself, because there, in a portion of the lawgiver, was he seated; and he came with the heads of the people, he executed the justice of the LORD, and his judgments with Israel. 22 And of Dan he said, Dan is a lion's whelp: he shall leap from Bashan. 23 And of Naphtali he said, O Naphtali, satisfied with favour, and full with the blessing of the LORD: possess thou the west and the south. 24 And of Asher he said, Let Asher be blessed with children; let him be acceptable to his brethren, and let him dip his foot in oil. 25 Thy shoes shall be iron and brass; and as thy days, so shall thy strength be. 26 There is none like unto the God of Jeshurun, who rideth upon the heaven in thy help, and in his excellency on the sky. 27 The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy them. 28 Israel then shall dwell in safety alone: the fountain of Jacob shall be upon a land of corn and wine; also his heavens shall drop down dew. 29 Happy art thou, O Israel: who is like unto thee, O people saved by the LORD, the shield of thy help, and who is the sword of thy excellency! and thine enemies shall be found liars unto thee; and thou shalt tread upon their high places.

The twelve tribes of Israel are: Reuben, Simeon, Judah, Issachar, Zebulun, Benjamin, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Ephraim and Manasseh.

So there are "ten thousands" of His saints from the tribe of Ephraim alone, not even considering the counts of the rest of the tribes of Israel, let alone that Muhammad's tribe the Quraish didn't come along until thousands of years after the time of when Moses was still alive to give this blessing on the tribes of Israel.

Are we really to believe that any of those ten thousands, wandered over a thousand kilometers north from Mecca, over a thousand years before the first caravan route was ever established along the Red Sea, and over 2,000 years before Mecca was ever established in the 4th century AD?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=56.0

Response: You quoted verse 33:1. My argument was based on verse 33:2. See the deception and lies of Christians? So your whole argument is a strawman, since you completely dodged everything I stated. You fail as usual.

Thus the evidence is clear from your own scripture that Muhammad is a Prophet from Arabia, as Deut. 33:2 makes reference of a man from Paran with 10,000 saints and a law, and we know Paran is in Arabia since Kedar is in Arabia (Isaiah 21: 13-16), who is the son of Ishmael (Genesis 25:13), and Ishmael lived in the Wilderness of Paran (Genesis 21:21).

[PeteWaldo]

And who in history came from Paran in Arabia, leading an army of 10,000?

Here is the reason Islam's liars never quote the first verse of this passage:

Deu 33:1 And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death. 2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

That "came" is in the past tense of Moses' day.
More on this specific subject of the 10,000 at this link:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1656.0

The Ishmaelites are the "children of the flesh" according to scripture:
http://www.petewaldo.com/children_flesh.htm

That's why you prostrate yourself toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca five times a day:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1050.0

It's why you are obligated to travel to it, and march around it seven times, as the Arabian pagan's did in moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship, before Muhammad was ever born:
http://www.petewaldo.com/hajj_umrah.htm#index

Muhammad ibn Abdullah (saw).

So not only does your Bible prove that Abraham's descendents lived in Arabia, but also just proved Muhammad is a Prophet from your own Bible.

Try again.

But as you can now see from your geography lesson that is absolutely sheer preposterous, and sadly and tragically more than anything, wishful, but geographically impossible false presumption.

Response: And this is what Christian liars and deceivers do when it shows their own scripture says Muhammad is a Prophet from Arabia, as Deut. 33:2 makes reference of a man from Paran with 10,000 saints and a law, and we know Paran is in Arabia since Kedar is in Arabia (Isaiah 21: 13-16), who is the son of Ishmael (Genesis 25:13), and Ishmael lived in the Wilderness of Paran (Genesis 21:21).

I even offered you a link to the forum thread so you wouldn't have had to look so foolish. Here is what you otherwise could have learned that I copied and pasted from there, that would have helped prevent you from repeating your blunder. You see my friend, all of those Islamist liars like Ahmed Deedat filled you full of lies from the father of lies himself, through the spirit of antichrist. Let me show you what those con artists leave out. Please note "came" as in past tense to Moses' words. Already past at that time:

Deu 33:1 And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death. 2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. 3 Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words. 4 Moses commanded us a law, even the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob. 5 And he was king in Jeshurun, when the heads of the people and the tribes of Israel were gathered together. 6 Let Reuben live, and not die; and let not his men be few. 7 And this is the blessing of Judah: and he said, Hear, LORD, the voice of Judah, and bring him unto his people: let his hands be sufficient for him; and be thou an help to him from his enemies. 8 And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah; 9 Who said unto his father and to his mother, I have not seen him; neither did he acknowledge his brethren, nor knew his own children: for they have observed thy word, and kept thy covenant. 10 They shall teach Jacob thy judgments, and Israel thy law: they shall put incense before thee, and whole burnt sacrifice upon thine altar. 11 Bless, LORD, his substance, and accept the work of his hands: smite through the loins of them that rise against him, and of them that hate him, that they rise not again. 12 And of Benjamin he said, The beloved of the LORD shall dwell in safety by him; and the LORD shall cover him all the day long, and he shall dwell between his shoulders. 13 And of Joseph he said, Blessed of the LORD be his land, for the precious things of heaven, for the dew, and for the deep that coucheth beneath, 14 And for the precious fruits brought forth by the sun, and for the precious things put forth by the moon, 15 And for the chief things of the ancient mountains, and for the precious things of the lasting hills, 16 And for the precious things of the earth and fulness thereof, and for the good will of him that dwelt in the bush: let the blessing come upon the head of Joseph, and upon the top of the head of him that was separated from his brethren. 17 His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth: and they are the ten thousands of Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manasseh. 18 And of Zebulun he said, Rejoice, Zebulun, in thy going out; and, Issachar, in thy tents. 19 They shall call the people unto the mountain; there they shall offer sacrifices of righteousness: for they shall suck of the abundance of the seas, and of treasures hid in the sand. 20 And of Gad he said, Blessed be he that enlargeth Gad: he dwelleth as a lion, and teareth the arm with the crown of the head. 21 And he provided the first part for himself, because there, in a portion of the lawgiver, was he seated; and he came with the heads of the people, he executed the justice of the LORD, and his judgments with Israel. 22 And of Dan he said, Dan is a lion's whelp: he shall leap from Bashan. 23 And of Naphtali he said, O Naphtali, satisfied with favour, and full with the blessing of the LORD: possess thou the west and the south. 24 And of Asher he said, Let Asher be blessed with children; let him be acceptable to his brethren, and let him dip his foot in oil. 25 Thy shoes shall be iron and brass; and as thy days, so shall thy strength be. 26 There is none like unto the God of Jeshurun, who rideth upon the heaven in thy help, and in his excellency on the sky. 27 The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy them. 28 Israel then shall dwell in safety alone: the fountain of Jacob shall be upon a land of corn and wine; also his heavens shall drop down dew. 29 Happy art thou, O Israel: who is like unto thee, O people saved by the LORD, the shield of thy help, and who is the sword of thy excellency! and thine enemies shall be found liars unto thee; and thou shalt tread upon their high places.

The twelve tribes of Israel are: Reuben, Simeon, Judah, Issachar, Zebulun, Benjamin, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Ephraim and Manasseh.

So there are "ten thousands" of His saints from the tribe of Ephraim alone, not even considering the counts of the rest of the tribes of Israel, let alone that Muhammad's tribe the Quraish didn't come along until thousands of years after the time of when Moses was still alive to give this blessing on the tribes of Israel.

Are we really to believe that any of those ten thousands, wandered over a thousand kilometers north from Mecca, over a thousand years before the first caravan route was ever established along the Red Sea, and over 2,000 years before Mecca was ever established in the 4th century AD?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=56.0

Response: You quoted verse 33:1. My argument was based on verse 33:2.

You poor thing. You are going to have to work pretty hard going forward, to convince me that you are over 16.
What you actually mean is that your "argument was based on" removing verse 33:2 entirely from the context that it regarded the tribes of Israel, and then pretending it had something to do with a false prophet that didn't make the scene until thousands of years later.

See the deception and lies of Christians?

My friend, it is your antichrist Islamist heroes like Ahmed Deedat that removed that verse from context to fool you into the nonsense you parroted. I just find it stunning that you don't even seem to be embarrassed.

So your whole argument is a strawman, since you completely dodged everything I stated.

Which is of course a lie, because I addressed all of your foolish notions thoroughly, and even with maps, that demonstrate the impossibility of your nonsense.

You fail as usual.

Thus the evidence is clear from your own scripture that Muhammad is a Prophet from Arabia, as Deut. 33:2 makes reference of a man from Paran with 10,000 saints and a law, and we know Paran is in Arabia since Kedar is in Arabia (Isaiah 21: 13-16), who is the son of Ishmael (Genesis 25:13), and Ishmael lived in the Wilderness of Paran (Genesis 21:21).

And there, folks, is an example of what happens to the cognitive function of a mind all twisted up by the spirit of antichrist through the father of lies. Dithering on as if the full context didn't prove his Muhammadan fantasy to be a lie.

[Al-Fatihah]

You poor thing. You are going to have to work pretty hard going forward, to convince me that you are over 16.
What you actually mean is that your "argument was based on" removing verse 33:2 entirely from the context that it regarded the tribes of Israel, and then pretending it had something to do with a false prophet that didn't make the scene until thousands of years later.

My friend, it is your antichrist Islamist heroes like Ahmed Deedat that removed that verse from context to fool you into the nonsense you parroted. I just find it stunning that you don't even seem to be embarrassed.



Which is of course a lie, because I addressed all of your foolish notions thoroughly, and even with maps, that demonstrate the impossibility of your nonsense.


And there, folks, is an example of what happens to the cognitive function of a mind all twisted up by the spirit of antichrist through the father of lies. Dithering on as if the full context didn't prove his Muhammadan fantasy to be a lie.

Response; So now it comes down to the "out of context" game. Amusing. Christians literally use the same tactics over and over again and think they are doing something. The sad part for you is that I have a background in Academic English grammar. So this game is about to be over right now.

You just said I m ignoring the context in verse 33:1, which implies that there is a statement in verse 33:1 that says:

"NO ONE came from Mount Paran"

Challenge. Quote these word, or anything synonymous to it from verse 33:1, if you are truthful.

[PeteWaldo]

You poor thing. You are going to have to work pretty hard going forward, to convince me that you are over 16.
What you actually mean is that your "argument was based on" removing verse 33:2 entirely from the context that it regarded the tribes of Israel, and then pretending it had something to do with a false prophet that didn't make the scene until thousands of years later.

My friend, it is your antichrist Islamist heroes like Ahmed Deedat that removed that verse from context to fool you into the nonsense you parroted. I just find it stunning that you don't even seem to be embarrassed.



Which is of course a lie, because I addressed all of your foolish notions thoroughly, and even with maps, that demonstrate the impossibility of your nonsense.


And there, folks, is an example of what happens to the cognitive function of a mind all twisted up by the spirit of antichrist through the father of lies. Dithering on as if the full context didn't prove his Muhammadan fantasy to be a lie.

Response; So now it comes down to the "out of context" game. Amusing. Christians literally use the same tactics over and over again and think they are doing something.

Since my "tactic" is studying a verse in its context, I'll plead guilty as charged. No surprise that a follower of Islam's liars like Ahmed Deedat (far more thanfollowing Muhammad), lacks the capacity for critical thought to understand that verses can only be considered in their context.

The sad part for you is that I have a background in Academic English grammar.

It's a shame they didn't also teach you about studying verses in context when they taught you grammar.

So this game is about to be over right now.

The "game" was over when you were foolish enough to insist on removing the verse from the chapter that clearly states it is the tribes of Israel that are being referenced.

You just said I m ignoring the context in verse 33:1, which implies that there is a statement in verse 33:1 that says:

"NO ONE came from Mount Paran"

That's because, as the verse states, some of the tribes of Israel being discussed came from Paran. I showed you the presumed 2 possible locations on the map. Neither location is within a thousand kilometers of where Mecca was eventually established, and the event predates Muhammadans by thousands of years. All of those locations are up by THE Holy Land of the prophets and patriarchs, and not one of them is within a thousand kilometers of where Mecca was eventually established in the 4th century AD. It's a shame they didn't teach you any geography when they taught you grammar.

Again:



Mt. Paran is located in today's Jordan.

Challenge. Quote these word, or anything synonymous to it from verse 33:1, if you are truthful.

Google the location of Mt. Paran.

[Al-Fatihah]

So this game is about to be over right now.

You just said I m ignoring the context in verse 33:1, which implies that there is a statement in verse 33:1 that says:

"NO ONE came from Mount Paran"

That's because, as the verse states, some of the tribes of Israel being discussed came from Paran. I showed you the presumed 2 possible locations on the map. Neither location is within a thousand kilometers of where Mecca was eventually established, and the event predates Muhammadans by thousands of years. All of those locations are up by THE Holy Land of the prophets and patriarchs, and not one of them is within a thousand kilometers of where Mecca was eventually established in the 4th century AD. It's a shame they didn't teach you any geography when they taught you grammar.

Again:



Mt. Paran is located in today's Jordan.

Challenge. Quote these word, or anything synonymous to it from verse 33:1, if you are truthful.

Google the location of Mt. Paran.

Response: This is too funny. You just showed a map and said Mt. Paran is in Jordan. Yet there are THREE Mt. Parans in the world. So your lying, deceitful ways will not work.

Then you continue to claim that the Tribes of Israel being discussed came from Mt. Paran, and show a map of what people call Paran TODAY. What kind of foolishness is that! What is called Paran today has nothing to do with the fact that YOUR OWN BIBLE refers to Paran in Arabia. Not the Paran you refer to because Isaiah 21:13-16 says a Calamity will fall on ARABIA and the glory of Kedar will fall. In Genesis 25:13 Kedar is mentioned as the Son of Ishmael. In Genesis 21:21 Ishmael is living in the wilderness of Paran.

So to recap. Since Kedar is in Arabia, and Kedar is the son of Ishmael, and Ishmael lives in the wilderness of Paran, then Paran and the descendants of Ishmael were also  in Arabia.

And who in history is said to come from Paran in Arabia with 10,000 followers as stated in your own Bible? Muhammad ibn Abdullah (saw).

So not only does your Bible prove that Abraham's descendants lived in Arabia, but also just proved Muhammad is a Prophet from your own Bible.

Try again.

[PeteWaldo]

So this game is about to be over right now.

You just said I m ignoring the context in verse 33:1, which implies that there is a statement in verse 33:1 that says:

"NO ONE came from Mount Paran"

That's because, as the verse states, some of the tribes of Israel being discussed came from Paran. I showed you the presumed 2 possible locations on the map. Neither location is within a thousand kilometers of where Mecca was eventually established, and the event predates Muhammadans by thousands of years. All of those locations are up by THE Holy Land of the prophets and patriarchs, and not one of them is within a thousand kilometers of where Mecca was eventually established in the 4th century AD. It's a shame they didn't teach you any geography when they taught you grammar.

Again:



Mt. Paran is located in today's Jordan.

Challenge. Quote these word, or anything synonymous to it from verse 33:1, if you are truthful.

Google the location of Mt. Paran.

Response: This is too funny. You just showed a map and said Mt. Paran is in Jordan. Yet there are THREE Mt. Parans in the world. So your lying, deceitful ways will not work.

Then you continue to claim that the Tribes of Israel being discussed came from Mt. Paran, and show a map of what people call Paran TODAY. What kind of foolishness is that! What is called Paran today has nothing to do with the fact that YOUR OWN BIBLE refers to Paran in Arabia.

Just as pictured in the map labeled as the "alternate location", which discussion is contained in another thread in this forum, or simply web search the location of the wilderness of Paran.

Not the Paran you refer to because Isaiah 21:13-16 says a Calamity will fall on ARABIA .....

So we can assume that you lack the capacity to look and and understand a map. Too bad they didn't teach you how to map read in grammar school either.

..... and the glory of Kedar will fall. In Genesis 25:13 Kedar is mentioned as the Son of Ishmael. In Genesis 21:21 Ishmael is living in the wilderness of Paran.

So to recap. Since Kedar is in Arabia, and Kedar is the son of Ishmael, and Ishmael lives in the wilderness of Paran, then Paran and the descendants of Ishmael were also  in Arabia.

Just as my other map detailed.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=4724.msg18134#msg18134
Your cognitive function has gone into outright failure.



Again, the Ishmaelites ranged across the whole region indicated by the bowed line.

And who in history is said to come from Paran in Arabia with 10,000 followers as stated in your own Bible? Muhammad ibn Abdullah (saw).

So not only does your Bible prove that Abraham's descendants lived in Arabia, but also just proved Muhammad is a Prophet from your own Bible.

What a laughably preposterous conclusion, but no surprise coming from you at this point.
Look at the map again. Neither Ishmael nor any of his sons ranged within 1,000 kilometers of where Mecca was eventually settled in the 4th century AD.

Try again.

I've done all I can do. Your responses indicate you lack the capacity to to even read a map, let alone scripture.

[Al-Fatihah]

So this game is about to be over right now.

You just said I m ignoring the context in verse 33:1, which implies that there is a statement in verse 33:1 that says:

"NO ONE came from Mount Paran"

That's because, as the verse states, some of the tribes of Israel being discussed came from Paran. I showed you the presumed 2 possible locations on the map. Neither location is within a thousand kilometers of where Mecca was eventually established, and the event predates Muhammadans by thousands of years. All of those locations are up by THE Holy Land of the prophets and patriarchs, and not one of them is within a thousand kilometers of where Mecca was eventually established in the 4th century AD. It's a shame they didn't teach you any geography when they taught you grammar.

Again:



Mt. Paran is located in today's Jordan.

Challenge. Quote these word, or anything synonymous to it from verse 33:1, if you are truthful.

Google the location of Mt. Paran.

Response: This is too funny. You just showed a map and said Mt. Paran is in Jordan. Yet there are THREE Mt. Parans in the world. So your lying, deceitful ways will not work.

Then you continue to claim that the Tribes of Israel being discussed came from Mt. Paran, and show a map of what people call Paran TODAY. What kind of foolishness is that! What is called Paran today has nothing to do with the fact that YOUR OWN BIBLE refers to Paran in Arabia.

Just as pictured in the map labeled as the "alternate location", which discussion is contained in another thread in this forum, or simply web search the location of the wilderness of Paran.

Not the Paran you refer to because Isaiah 21:13-16 says a Calamity will fall on ARABIA .....

So we can assume that you lack the capacity to look and and understand a map. Too bad they didn't teach you how to map read in grammar school either.

..... and the glory of Kedar will fall. In Genesis 25:13 Kedar is mentioned as the Son of Ishmael. In Genesis 21:21 Ishmael is living in the wilderness of Paran.

So to recap. Since Kedar is in Arabia, and Kedar is the son of Ishmael, and Ishmael lives in the wilderness of Paran, then Paran and the descendants of Ishmael were also  in Arabia.

Just as my other map detailed.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=4724.msg18134#msg18134
Your cognitive function has gone into outright failure.



Again, the Ishmaelites ranged across the whole region indicated by the bowed line.



What a laughably preposterous conclusion, but no surprise coming from you at this point.
Look at the map again. Neither Ishmael nor any of his sons ranged within 1,000 kilometers of where Mecca was eventually settled in the 4th century AD.



I've done all I can do. Your responses indicate you lack the capacity to to even read a map, let alone scripture.

Response: Again, your redundant use of a Map indicates an impotent approach to logic, thus refuting nothing as usual. As your Map is not supported by any historical records, and your own Bible refutes you since it clearly states Kedar lived in Arabia (Isaiah 21:13-26), who is the son of Ishmael (Gen. 25:13), and Ishmael lived in the Wilderness of Paran (Gen. 21:21). This is your own Bible saying this. So you continue to refute yourself as well as expose your Bible.

[PeteWaldo]

So this game is about to be over right now.

You just said I m ignoring the context in verse 33:1, which implies that there is a statement in verse 33:1 that says:

"NO ONE came from Mount Paran"

That's because, as the verse states, some of the tribes of Israel being discussed came from Paran. I showed you the presumed 2 possible locations on the map. Neither location is within a thousand kilometers of where Mecca was eventually established, and the event predates Muhammadans by thousands of years. All of those locations are up by THE Holy Land of the prophets and patriarchs, and not one of them is within a thousand kilometers of where Mecca was eventually established in the 4th century AD. It's a shame they didn't teach you any geography when they taught you grammar.

Again:



Mt. Paran is located in today's Jordan.

Challenge. Quote these word, or anything synonymous to it from verse 33:1, if you are truthful.

Google the location of Mt. Paran.

Response: This is too funny. You just showed a map and said Mt. Paran is in Jordan. Yet there are THREE Mt. Parans in the world. So your lying, deceitful ways will not work.

Then you continue to claim that the Tribes of Israel being discussed came from Mt. Paran, and show a map of what people call Paran TODAY. What kind of foolishness is that! What is called Paran today has nothing to do with the fact that YOUR OWN BIBLE refers to Paran in Arabia.

Just as pictured in the map labeled as the "alternate location", which discussion is contained in another thread in this forum, or simply web search the location of the wilderness of Paran.

Not the Paran you refer to because Isaiah 21:13-16 says a Calamity will fall on ARABIA .....

So we can assume that you lack the capacity to look and and understand a map. Too bad they didn't teach you how to map read in grammar school either.

..... and the glory of Kedar will fall. In Genesis 25:13 Kedar is mentioned as the Son of Ishmael. In Genesis 21:21 Ishmael is living in the wilderness of Paran.

So to recap. Since Kedar is in Arabia, and Kedar is the son of Ishmael, and Ishmael lives in the wilderness of Paran, then Paran and the descendants of Ishmael were also  in Arabia.

Just as my other map detailed.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=4724.msg18134#msg18134
Your cognitive function has gone into outright failure.



Again, the Ishmaelites ranged across the whole region indicated by the bowed line.



What a laughably preposterous conclusion, but no surprise coming from you at this point.
Look at the map again. Neither Ishmael nor any of his sons ranged within 1,000 kilometers of where Mecca was eventually settled in the 4th century AD.



I've done all I can do. Your responses indicate you lack the capacity to to even read a map, let alone scripture.

Response: Again, your redundant use of a Map indicates an impotent approach to logic, thus refuting nothing as usual.

No it is your incapacity to look at the map and understand that is compromised. Perhaps you didn't realize that the modern boundaries of the countries shown on that map, are not the same as the boundaries of Ishmael's day.

Maybe this will help. The Ishmaelites were known for their flocks, which would require pastures, like those that existed in what's known as the "fertile crescent":



South of that crescent is what today we call the Syrian Desert, which was and remains, uninhabitable. That's why the line, representing the range of the Ishmaelites on the graphic map, is bowed.
Here's a picture of the Syrian Desert:

As your Map is not supported by any historical records, .........

The fact of the matter is that it is absolutely supported by the historical record. Didn't you read the verses that are on the map? Perhaps if I make them bigger:

Gen 25:17 And these are the years of the life of Ishmael, an hundred and thirty and seven years: and he gave up the ghost and died; and was gathered unto his people. 18 And they dwelt from Havilah unto Shur, that is before Egypt, as thou goest toward Assyria: and he died in the presence of all his brethren.

Now because of your repeated inability to look at and comprehend the map, you have charged yourself with the responsibility of finding a map with the locations detailed in that verse detailed on them. Here's a map that pins Kedar, Arabia:

http://bibleatlas.org/full/kedar.htm

Unfortunately you can't simply wish that a geographical location could be transported 1200 kilometers south to the area where Mecca was eventually established 2,000 years later in the 4th century AD.

....... and your own Bible refutes you since it clearly states Kedar lived in Arabia (Isaiah 21:13-26), ......

With which I repeatedly agreed and as the maps show, in Arabia, yet still around 1,200 kilometers away from the area in which Mecca was eventually established, over 2,000 years later.

....... who is the son of Ishmael (Gen. 25:13), and Ishmael lived in the Wilderness of Paran (Gen. 21:21).

Yes, exactly. As shown in the location you will find on any map on the internet except for one comically ridiculous Muhammadan map that has no historical or scriptural basis whatsoever, as evidenced by the actual location of the Ishmaelites as described in the scriptures I have posted here.
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=wilderness%20of%20paran&FORM=BILH1

This is your own Bible saying this.

Yes, and I gave you the descriptions, and maps, so you have charged yourself with presenting maps that describe a different location if you believe the maps presented here are incorrect.

So you continue to refute yourself as well as expose your Bible.

No I continue to confirm that fact that neither Abraham, Hagar nor Ishmael were ever within 1,000 kilometers of where Mecca was built over 2,000 years later.

[PeteWaldo]

Kedar is mentioned as the Son of Ishmael.

No, he is a son of Ishmael's 12 sons, that became 12 tribes.
http://www.petewaldo.com/12_sons_tribes_ishmael.htm

The scriptures refer to their heirs as the "children of the flesh", which may well be why  Muhammadans prostrate themselves toward the Quraish pagan's Kaaba and black stone idol 5 times a day.
http://www.petewaldo.com/children_flesh.htm

Here's what else the scriptures say about Ishmael:

Gen 16:12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

While the scriptures are silent on just what happened to the Ishmaelites, we may not need to look far to find their seed in our era, as evidenced by 80% of the reprobate violence perpetrated around the world today, as well as over the last 1400 years.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm#muslim_polls

[PeteWaldo]

Maybe this will help. Here's an account from an Islamic website:
http://www.thekeytoislam.com/en/what-do-you-know-about-zamzam-well.aspx

"Abraham took Hagar and her son, Ishmael to a place near the Kabah; he left them under a tree at the site of Zamzam. No one lived in Makkah back then, yet Abraham made them sit there, leaving them with some dates, and a small water-skin. Thereafter he set out towards home."

Is that what you believe?

[PeteWaldo]

I split off and locked the space you wasted, and forced me to waste in reply, in your efforts to run and hide from the prior question.
When  you joined the forum you agreed to engage in an exchange. If you do not reply to the prior question, but engage in further obfuscation, that reply will also be split off and added to that locked wasted posting.
Better yet I will threaten you with simply discarding it altogether, to prevent you from wasting your own time like that. So stay on topic and engage.

[PeteWaldo]

Maybe this will help. Here's an account from an Islamic website:
http://www.thekeytoislam.com/en/what-do-you-know-about-zamzam-well.aspx

"Abraham took Hagar and her son, Ishmael to a place near the Kabah; he left them under a tree at the site of Zamzam. No one lived in Makkah back then, yet Abraham made them sit there, leaving them with some dates, and a small water-skin. Thereafter he set out towards home."

Is that what you believe?

Since the cat's got your tongue because perhaps even you saw the inevitability of the answer, let me help you get over this hump as well.
According to that Islamic site Abraham took Hagar and Ishmael, to a place in the Arabian desert where there was only the Kaaba, and then went back home.
Sounds simple enough doesn't it?
But considering the actual, physical, demographic and geographical impossibility of that claim, the only thing that would seem simple is the mind of someone that would believe that specifically counter-scriptural and thus anti-God hogwash.

Abraham lived in Hebron, where even Muslims visit his grave today.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1306.0
Hebron is not that many miles north of the Wilderness of Beersheba, where Hagar wandered with Ishmael, after Abraham kicked them out of his house at his wife Sarah's request. The approximate locations are pinned on this graphic:
(and no my friend, in case you become tempted again, it is no more physically possible to move the locations of Jerusalem, Hebron or Beersheba, 1200 kilometers south to Mecca, than it would be to move Sinai, Assyria, Egypt, Paran, Havilah or Shur over 1000 kilometers south to Mecca):



So for the claim in that website to be true - for all of the Islamic so-called "tradition" that masquerades as thousands of years of pre-4th century history of Mecca, that was all created and put to the pen in the 8th to 10th centuries AD without reference to any actual historical record that dates before about the 6th century AD, to be true - Abraham would have had to have abandoned his wife Sarah, to wander across 1200 kilometers of harsh, barren, unexplored, uncharted desert with his wife Sarah's slave Hagar and son, to dump them off in an empty spot where Mecca was eventually built. Then according to that website he simply turned around and would have had to wander the 1200 kilometers back home to Hebron alone.
Even more comically, he would have been doing this well over a thousand years before the historical record informs us that overland travel was possible along the Red Sea in Arabia (the advent of which was around the 8th-6th century AD).

Wouldn't you agree that a person would have to be in appallingly abject ignorance to scripture, history, archaeology and particularly the demographic and geographical impossibility of that ridiculous counter-scriptural nonsense, in order to believe it?

Again I ask you my friend, do you believe any version, of the impossible 8th century AD fable recounted in that Islamic website?

[PeteWaldo]

In the wake of the recent crescendo that culminated in the rapid blizzard of repetitive posts on several threads, contrary to the rules you agreed to when you joined, we will offer you a 3 day vacation, during which time we hope you can collect and compose yourself. You can still log in and use some forum functions.

When you return from your brief vacation we can begin here:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=4721.msg18252#msg18252