split/retitled: PotatoMuslim returns to the forum

[PotatoMuslim]

PotatoMuslim....

I will also pray for you as well.  As Pete stated, I too see you as a sincere person.  A person looking for the truth.

Thank you for the kind words, Bistabuster.

We are here to help you find that way.  Unlike Islam, we will NOT force you to believe in Christianity as Islam does.

We are not supposed to force you to believe in Islam either. Actually, no one can "force" you to believe in something against your will. No one can compel you to believe something. It is just not possible. We are only supposed to remind people and invite them to Islam, in the best manner possible. Then, if they reject the message and starts mocking us, then we should simply turn away from them. Ultimately, it is only Allah that can guide people towards faith, as He says in the Quran: "And if your Lord had so pleased all of those in the Earth would have faith. Would you then compel the people to become believers? And it is not for a soul to believe except by Allah's permission, and He will place wrath upon those who do not use reason." (Surah 10:99-100)

May I suggest a study on Islamic apostasy as well?  I know some friends (Pakistani Muslim) that was truly afraid to leave Islam for fear of burning in hell.  Well, he finally did break down and asked Jesus to come into his life and he felt a peace like nothing he had ever felt before.

Regarding the ruling on apostasy, the majority of scholars agree that the death penalty for apostasy should be applied only if there are treasonous acts involved, especially when the apostates turn against Muslims and then try to cause serious harm or damage to them. However, it is clear that there is no death penalty merely for converting to atheism or to a different religion.

"Islamic scholars say the original rulings on apostasy were similar to those for treasonous acts in legal systems worldwide and do not apply to an individual's choice of religion. Islam advocates both freedom of religion and freedom of conscience, a position supported by verses in the Quran, Islam's revealed text, such as: 'Let there be no compulsion in religion' (Surah 2:256)." - Council of American-Islamic Relations (CAIR)

Also, see the links below:
100+ Notable Islamic Voices on Apostasy
Affirmation of Freedom of Expression and Belief in the Quran
Preserving the Freedom for Faith

Here is this guy (Pakistani Muslim) telling about his journey to Christ.  He's not lying either.  There is no reason to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyIptLD939U

Yeah, I've seen that guy on Youtube. I recently watched a long debate that he had with Dr. Shabir Ally regarding the subject of Trinity. He got smashed, IMO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWpqqqZn7Kg

[PotatoMuslim]

It's been quite a while since potatomuslim has graced us with his company. I think it's possible that he may have gotten that first spark of cognitive dissonance. Perhaps maybe even in the process of leaving Islam.
He was untypical of Muslims that have come here, in that he seemed to have a capacity to understand and actually consider, replies to his posts. He came in all puffed up about how he was going to school us on the history of Mecca. He did in fact school me on the very ancient history of Arabia, for which I was grateful. I even added that element to websites. However even though there may have been a giant lake in Arabia 6 thousand or so years ago and there are ancient artifacts and signs of people and animals, Arabia began to desertify over the period of a couple thousand years, that by Abraham's day was complete, so it didn't change the fact that north and south Arabia were cut off from each other during Abraham's day. The only way spices moved from Yemen to the Holy Land back were by ship.

In the process of Islam? No, not even the slightest.

You were probably thinking that I wouldn't come back, especially after so long. But here I am now.

But be it noted, I don't have the same kind of drive or, shall we say, 'e-combative' attitude that I had when I first joined. I don't feel like you are intelligent nor honest enough to generate a healthy discussion. However, I am still going to reply to all the comments in your first two replies to me at least, starting from top to bottom, which I promised to do in my second post in this thread. I will also reply to some other comments to dismantle your pseudo-scholarly anti-Islamic arguments more thoroughly. I've spent a full three years reading, researching, and typing these responses, and I think that's a big way to honor the agreement with the rules of the forum. You should respect this.

So, plump yourself down, get warm, and slowly chew on the things that I'm going to give you. I might overfeed you, but I know you're a big boy and you can take it.

[PeteWaldo]

Hello my friend, and welcome back to the forum. It's sad you chose to reintroduce yourself through a lack of civility and insults, but Christians are accustomed to insults from Muslims - indeed in many Muslim countries around the world Christians are persecuted and killed by them.
http://www.persecution.com/public/restrictednations.aspx

We in this forum have gotten fairly thick skinned, plus as Christians we are taught to forgive others for their inappropriate and insulting manners, so I forgive you and will continue to pray that you will be able to overcome the provably preposterous tripe you have been indoctrinated to believe because you follow the STAND-ALONE 23 year 7th century record of the false prophet Muhammad alone. This while Christians follow all of the prophets and witnesses as revealed in the 1600 year record of Yahweh to mankind, whose people have followed Him through two covenants for 3500 years.

Well, that about wraps it up. And I will gracefully bow out from this discussion (and from this forum, for that matter) because I am already content with everything I posted here.

I'm sorry, but if you review the forum rules you agreed to when you joined, you will notice that your spam posting, as well as your bowing out without engaging in an exchange, are both against forum rules that you agreed to abide by when you joined.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=35.0

"Thus our only rule is that members that initiate topics, or post in existing topics, be willing to engage in a dialog - in an exchange. When you begin, post a thread or comment, or even a couple, including just a point or two, then wait for a response, and then reply to responses. In other words don't just spam away while ignoring replies of other members to your posts.
Responding to a post does not constitute an opportunity to clutter your reply with a bunch of unrelated material."

Your forum decorum violating posts will be stored in the spam section (accessed by this link), where we can discuss them point by point in an exchange. Your failure to engage will result in their being moved to offline storage.
So let's get on with it in the next post.

[PeteWaldo]

No problem with being straightforward and honest, in truth, because there is no point in dancing around the heart of matters. The Gospel, through the Holy Spirit, fills Christians with complete resolve as to what to believe. The Quran fills Muhammad's followers with complete resolve to DISbelieve the whole subject of the Gospel, as an article of your faith in Muhammad alone.

No, Muslims are not required to disbelieve in the whole subject of the Gospel.

I'm sorry my friend but as much as I know you would like to wish that were true, tragically, it is not. You seem as uninformed about the Gospel as you were the absence of pre-4th century historical and archaeological evidence of Mecca.
Why don't you try reading the Gospel some time? Try the Gospel of John for openers:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/gospel_of_john.htm

The whole subject of the Gospel as revealed through Old Testament prophecy.....
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/psalms_22.htm#psalms_22_16
.....and as revealed through New Testament fulfillment as accounted in the Gospel, is the crucifixion, death and resurrection of the Messiah, who saves all from dying in our sins, who have faith in His shed blood.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm

The sacrifice of the Passover Lamb of God.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm#passover_lamb_of_god

While the false prophet Muhammad filled his followers with complete resolve, not so much what to believe, but specifically what to DISbelieve. In this case the whole subject of the Gospel. This is why the Quran is the opposite, or an inversion, of the truth of God's Holy Word. This is how we can know that Muhammad was inspired by the father of lies.

No, Muslims are not required to disbelieve in the whole subject of the Gospel. On the contrary, we believe that it was originally the inspired word of God along with the Old Testament books revealed to Moses. The only problem is that they are not reliable anymore because of the so many variants in the text today and because of the copies of copies of copies of the Bible which in many places do not even agree with each other.

It is true that some translations and versions have been compromised, like the version created by the 19th century founder of the Jehovah's Witness cult.

But we are talking in the broad terms about the whole subject of the Gospel. You can not bring a single shred of evidence, that suggests that any Gospel manuscript from any time since Jesus Christ, including the 5300 partial or complete versions we have that were penned prior to 300 AD, has other than the crucifixion, death and resurrection of the Messiah, Yeshua as its whole subject.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/bible_manuscript_errors_.htm

The Quran, on the other hand, is a single book without having any differences in it's language between the millions of Qurans that we have today and it is still preserved in the same Arabic since the time it was revealed.

But that is patently false since the Arabic language itself, in which the "Qurans that we have today" are penned, has evolved considerably since the oldest Qurans. Indeed 1 out of 5 verses in one of the oldest Qurans doesn't even make sense:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2576.0

Please scroll to the 48 minute spot on this video and you will find that as far as Islamic textual scholars who had access to the oldest manuscripts are concerned, none of the oldest Qurans agree with each other, and far worse!:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd9lIuUjPs0

It might help you to bear in mind that by Muhammad's 7th century the Gospel had been translated into every major language, had been copied tens of thousands of times, and had been read all over the known world for centuries. In that same 7th century Muhammad's alter-ego "Allah" quipped:

Sura 5:47 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

So with your pop claims of corruption of the Gospel - which false claims do not exist in the Quran - do you then believe that Muhammad's alter-ego "Allah" was a liar or a fool, for having suggested what you can only believe was such a foolish thing?
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/



I'll try to be a bit more prompt in my reply to your response.

[PotatoMuslim]

I'm sorry, but if you review the forum rules you agreed to when you joined, you will notice that your spam posting, as well as your bowing out without engaging in an exchange, are both against forum rules that you agreed to abide by when you joined.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=35.0

"Thus our only rule is that members that initiate topics, or post in existing topics, be willing to engage in a dialog - in an exchange. When you begin, post a thread or comment, or even a couple, including just a point or two, then wait for a response, and then reply to responses. In other words don't just spam away while ignoring replies of other members to your posts.
Responding to a post does not constitute an opportunity to clutter your reply with a bunch of unrelated material."

Your forum decorum violating posts will be stored in the spam section (accessed by this link), where we can discuss them point by point in an exchange. Your failure to engage will result in their being moved to offline storage.
So let's get on with it in the next post.

First of all, none of my posts were spam, because I took each of your comments and then I gave a direct response to each.

Secondly, just because I don't want to continue discussing the subject with you doesn't mean that I didn't engage in an exchange already. Again, you know that I did reply to your points, and that counts as an exchange, whether I want to continue debating you or not.

Incorrectly moving my posts to the spam section tells me that you're afraid that other people might come across my posts after doing a Google search on Mecca and then see how I've exposed your errors. You don't want that to happen. That's why you moved my posts into a hidden section - because you are afraid of being exposed - not because I "spammed."

Also, if my violation is that I should have just responded to your first post and then waited for you respond (before posting again), then you yourself violated that rule also, because in this thread itself you posted multiple posts with tons of comments one after another, without waiting for me to respond to them first.




 

[PeteWaldo]

I'm sorry, but if you review the forum rules you agreed to when you joined, you will notice that your spam posting, as well as your bowing out without engaging in an exchange, are both against forum rules that you agreed to abide by when you joined.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=35.0

"Thus our only rule is that members that initiate topics, or post in existing topics, be willing to engage in a dialog - in an exchange. When you begin, post a thread or comment, or even a couple, including just a point or two, then wait for a response, and then reply to responses. In other words don't just spam away while ignoring replies of other members to your posts.
Responding to a post does not constitute an opportunity to clutter your reply with a bunch of unrelated material."

Your forum decorum violating posts will be stored in the spam section (accessed by this link), where we can discuss them point by point in an exchange. Your failure to engage will result in their being moved to offline storage.
So let's get on with it in the next post.

First of all, none of my posts were spam, because I took each of your comments and then I gave a direct response to each.

Your posts are protected in the spam section and as I already explained will be restored as we discuss them point by point. Please reread the rules:
".....post a thread or comment, or even a couple, including just a point or two, then wait for a response....."

What you are making clear is that you just wanted to spam a bunch of falsehood into the forum and then run away from the accountability of having to defend it. That's why you wasted our time with this post rather than respond to my replies and defend Muhammad and his stand-alone, heavily abrogated, 23-year, 7th century record, that compels you to deny and even blaspheme the 1600 year record of Yahweh to mankind as revealed through all of his prophets and witnesses, whose people have followed Him through two covenants for 3500 years.

Secondly, just because I don't want to continue discussing the subject with you doesn't mean that I didn't engage in an exchange already.

Your not continuing discussion, and wasting your time like this, demonstrates your inability to defend what you spammed in. Your MO is just the same as it was the last time you came to spam away and ignore replies to your posts - just as all Muslims who come here must run and hide from the truth, because you follow the father of lies through his "messenger" Muhammad.

Again, you know that I did reply to your points, and that counts as an exchange, whether I want to continue debating you or not.

You don't want to continue because you can't defend the indefensible nonsense you put in here about both the scriptures and the Quran. Indeed your post indicates that you even seemed unaware that the Arabic language had evolved since the oldest Qurans were penned.

Incorrectly moving my posts to the spam section tells me that you're afraid that other people might come across my posts after doing a Google search on Mecca and then see how I've exposed your errors.

Don't be silly. Tell you what I'll do for you and all the web surfers that follow you. I'll move your spam back to this forum section, and reply to it, but I will lock the thread until such time as you provide substantive replies to the most important subjects I covered in the post at this link:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3631.msg19066#msg19066

It is I that exposed your errors and preposterously false beliefs about the Quran that are exposed even by Islam's own textual scholars. Again, if you scroll to the 48 minute spot on this video you will find that, as the  Islamic scholars who had access to the oldest Quranic manuscripts reported, none of the oldest Qurans agree with each other, and far worse!:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd9lIuUjPs0

You don't want that to happen. That's why you moved my posts into a hidden section - because you are afraid of being exposed - not because I "spammed."

No it means I want you to focus on the most important point we could have in any discussion, which is that because you have been indoctrinated to deny the whole subject of the Gospel, that necessarily means that Muhammad was a messenger of Satan Himself.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/islam_the_opposite.htm

Also, if my violation is that I should have just responded to your first post and then waited for you respond (before posting again), then you yourself violated that rule also, because in this thread itself you posted multiple posts with tons of comments one after another, without waiting for me to respond to them first.

That's because your first post was in violation of forum rules, but I went ahead and accommodated you anyway, by replying in kind to each point. Just as I want to do with your recent posts.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3631.msg14814#msg14814

Now if you want to have the rest of your posts restored, please be honest and courteous enough to respond to my replies, first to the most important subject you raised, when you denied that Muslims are required to disbelieve the whole subject of the Gospel - that even Muhammad instructed Christians to go by in the 7th century, after the Gospel had been copied tens of thousands of times and had been read all over the known world for centuries.

[PeteWaldo]

Please begin with this single point.
By Muhammad's 7th century the Gospel had been translated into every popular language, had been copied tens of thousands of times, and had been read all over the known world for centuries. Indeed we have 5300 partial or complete manuscripts that date prior to 300 AD.
The whole subject of that Gospel, just as today, was of course the crucifixion, death and resurrection of the Passover Lamb of God, who saves all from sin who have faith in His shed blood.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/bible_manuscript_errors_.htm

In that same 7th century Muhammad quipped:

Sura 5:47 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

Please explain how you reconcile Muhammad having made, what your claims of bible corruption can only lead you to conclude, was such a foolish recommendation.

[PotatoMuslim]

Don't be silly. Tell you what I'll do for you and all the web surfers that follow you. I'll move your spam back to this forum section, and reply to it, but I will lock the thread until such time as you provide substantive replies to the most important subjects I covered in the post at this link:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3631.msg19066#msg19066

Yeah, and now you moved it back to the spam section again. Seems like you're getting a little too desperate to prevent others from reading my posts, eh?

Basically, like I said before, you are afraid that people might be more convinced by my posts than by your posts, and that's why removed my posts from the main forum. You are afraid that people might think that I am right and you are wrong.

Besides, if you kept my posts in this forum, then everyone can see that I actually engaged in an exchange, which would show them that your claim that I "ignored" your replies is a lie. That's why you hid them in the spam section.

Now if you want to have the rest of your posts restored, please be honest and courteous enough to respond to my replies, first to the most important subject you raised, when you denied that Muslims are required to disbelieve the whole subject of the Gospel - that even Muhammad instructed Christians to go by in the 7th century, after the Gospel had been copied tens of thousands of times and had been read all over the known world for centuries.

I didn't raise that subject. I first came to this forum to talk about the history of Mecca from an academic point of view. Later, in your reply, you were the one who first brought up the issue of Muslims disbelieving in the Gospels and all that stuff. That is why responded to those points although, again, I didn't start it.

If I wanted to discuss the scriptures and the Gospels, then I could have posted in a relevant thread. But I wanted to discuss Mecca, and that's why initially replied in a thread which you created regarding this very topic. So, it is not fair to try to divert me into a different subject. Yet, I still responded to those points.

[PeteWaldo]

If I wanted to discuss the scriptures and the Gospels, then I could have posted in a relevant thread.

Then perhaps you shouldn't have started out by denying that Muslims are required to DISbelieve the whole subject of the Gospel.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=5001.msg19066#msg19066

[PeteWaldo]

PotatoMuslim....

I will also pray for you as well.  As Pete stated, I too see you as a sincere person.  A person looking for the truth.

Thank you for the kind words, Bistabuster.

We are here to help you find that way.  Unlike Islam, we will NOT force you to believe in Christianity as Islam does.

We are not supposed to force you to believe in Islam either.

Then why did Muhammad say he had been ordered by Allah to fight against the people until they parrot the blasphemy of Islam?

Bukhari, V1 B2 #24 Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle.....
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm#ordered_to_fight

Actually, no one can "force" you to believe in something against your will.

Indeed. God's people prefer to get their heads cut off rather than renounce our one true God of the scriptures of Jews and Christians.
But that obviously doesn't mean that Muhammad and his followers weren't/aren't "ordered by Allah" to try force, through a "fight against the people".
Indeed all the way up into France and Austria during the Islamic First Jihad.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm#islamic_first_jihad

Just as The Islamic State does during this Second Islamic Jihad:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=4981.msg19219#msg19219

No one can compel you to believe something. It is just not possible. We are only supposed to remind people and invite them to Islam, in the best manner possible. Then, if they reject the message and starts mocking us, then we should simply turn away from them. Ultimately, it is only Allah that can guide people towards faith, as He says in the Quran: "And if your Lord had so pleased all of those in the Earth would have faith. Would you then compel the people to become believers? And it is not for a soul to believe except by Allah's permission, and He will place wrath upon those who do not use reason." (Surah 10:99-100)

May I suggest a study on Islamic apostasy as well?  I know some friends (Pakistani Muslim) that was truly afraid to leave Islam for fear of burning in hell.  Well, he finally did break down and asked Jesus to come into his life and he felt a peace like nothing he had ever felt before.

Regarding the ruling on apostasy, the majority of scholars agree that the death penalty for apostasy should be applied only if there are treasonous acts involved, especially when the apostates turn against Muslims and then try to cause serious harm or damage to them.

"Causing serious harm to and damaging" Muhammad's followers by such as sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ with them, helping them to come to know the love of the one true God, which would constitute doing "mischief in the land":

Surah 5:33 The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off from opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter.

Which of course is why Bibles and/or Christian materials are banned or restricted in 59, primarily Islamic, countries (the others are communist countries since communism cannot stand the light of the truth of the Gospel either).

However, it is clear that there is no death penalty merely for converting to atheism or to a different religion.

When will Muslims learn that Islamic dissimulation and taqiyyah doesn't fool people that have bothered to educate themselves about Islam.
Let alone fool people that simply recognize the objective reality that there are at least 9 Islamic nation States that provide the death penalty by State statute for citizens that leave Islam:
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/death_penalty_apostasy.htm

Worse than that, is the Islamic dissimulator's inability to see the future that they are consigning their own heirs to.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/great_tribulation.htm

"Islamic scholars say the original rulings on apostasy were similar to those for treasonous acts in legal systems worldwide and do not apply to an individual's choice of religion. Islam advocates both freedom of religion and freedom of conscience, a position supported by verses in the Quran, Islam's revealed text, such as: 'Let there be no compulsion in religion' (Surah 2:256)." - Council of American-Islamic Relations (CAIR)

Also, see the links below:
100+ Notable Islamic Voices on Apostasy
Affirmation of Freedom of Expression and Belief in the Quran
Preserving the Freedom for Faith

Here is this guy (Pakistani Muslim) telling about his journey to Christ.  He's not lying either.  There is no reason to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyIptLD939U

Yeah, I've seen that guy on Youtube. I recently watched a long debate that he had with Dr. Shabir Ally regarding the subject of Trinity. He got smashed, IMO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWpqqqZn7Kg

[PeteWaldo]

"Islamic scholars say the original rulings on apostasy were similar to those for treasonous acts in legal systems worldwide and do not apply to an individual's choice of religion. Islam advocates both freedom of religion and freedom of conscience, a position supported by verses in the Quran, Islam's revealed text, such as: 'Let there be no compulsion in religion' (Surah 2:256)." - Council of American-Islamic Relations (CAIR)

Quoting the taqiyyah of a Muslim Brotherhood front organization in the U.S. (CAIR) that includes a conspicuously abrogated verse (since later verses and hadiths that abrogate it call for conquest, and subjugation of non-Musilms to Muhammad's followers):
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=5001.msg19050#msg19050

"Islamic scholars say the original rulings on apostasy were similar to those for treasonous acts in legal systems worldwide and do not apply to an individual's choice of religion. Islam advocates both freedom of religion and freedom of conscience, a position supported by verses in the Quran, Islam's revealed text, such as: 'Let there be no compulsion in religion' (Surah 2:256)." - Council of American-Islamic Relations (CAIR)

Your parroting their taqiyyah was presumably intended to express your disagreement with the Islamic practice of preventing Muhammad's followers from leaving Islam.
We seem to have left you dumbfounded in our prior discussion on details as to whether The Islamic State is of God or of Satan:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=4981.msg19179#msg19179

But in that same vein, can we presume that you believe that statutes that provide the death penalty for citizens that leave Islam, like in Islamic nation States such as Iran, Pakistan, Somalia, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Qatar, Yemen and Mauritania, are of Satan and not of God?
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/death_penalty_apostasy.htm