Re: Jesus is son of God

[The Celt]

If you are referring to the birth of Jesus then he was not born as the Son of God. The angel who appeared to the shepherds by night had this to say of Jesus: "For unto you is born this day in the City of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord." Luke 2: 11. To whom was the angel referring to when he said, " who is Christ the Lord"? It could not have been the babe Jesus because he was the sign given to verify the presence of Christ the Lord.  And this shall be a sign unto you: Ye shall find the Babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger. Luke 2:12. The babe was indeed the saviour but not Christ the Lord. He could not be a sign of something he already is.

Christ the Lord is none other than the Word of God, who "was made flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only Begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth." John 1: 14. The term 'only Begotten of the Father' is not a description of his birth for the apostle John, together with those mentioned as 'we', never saw Jesus as a babe in Bethlehem. The fact that they 'beheld his glory' could be a reference to Jesus talking to Elijah and Moses on a mountain top. Mark 9: 2 -10. To whom did God refer to as 'my beloved Son'?

[PeteWaldo]

Welcome to the forum Celt!
Somewhat hard to tell, by his posting:

Jesus is son of God

Jesus is not the messiah neither the son of God

But then we don't have to wonder since bahous is an antichrist Muslim blasphemer, that also falsely accuses our forum as being "full of lies about Islam", but is unable to point out a single one. Indeed if he had to own the first statement that I quoted from his post, he would be guilty of committing the single most "heinous" and ONLY unforgivable sin in Islam:
http://petewaldo.com/unforgivable_shirk.htm

He refuses to engage in an exchange because he knows it will condemn Muhammad as a false prophet and reprobate, but instead simply floats in and out of here every few months to post copy and pasted blasphemy that he has posted in here before.

Before posting it is a good idea to get to know someone a little better by checking their posting history, by clicking on their username and selecting "Show Posts". Also it's best to reduce confusion by dealing in broad terms, since we are dealing with folks who are required to deny the crucifixion of Christ and thus reject His shed blood, and deny the Son of God as articles of their faith in Muhammad alone.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/
I didn't respond to the issues I take with your post, as I think it is best to stick with the big stuff to reduce confusion and avoid wasting effort, when replying on Muslim threads.

Again, welcome to the forum!

[Bistabuster]

You and I know one day he will know Jesus is Lord of all.  He will wish that he knew that before that day arrived for he can no longer change his mind. 

I know Muhammad realized the HUGE mistake he made when Muhammad arrived on his day!  I bet he wanted to go back and rewrite history!

[The Celt]

In what way was Jesus the Son of God? Jesus was the name given to the male child, who was a human being, born to Mary. Jesus was different to all other human beings that were born to women. He was created by God to be free from sin but all other humans are brought into contact with sin from their existence in the womb. God also choose him to be someone in whom God, as the Word of God, was to be within. God had a close relationship with Jesus through this union between them both.

King David was loved by God from his youth onwards. His son Solomon was also loved by God from an early age. God promised to King David that another child of his would one day also rule over the children of Israel for ever. This person was to be Jesus the son of Mary. God said to King David that He would be a father to him and Jesus would behave as His son. This Jesus did by obeying God in all things. That is why God called Jesus "my beloved son". This is why the Jews also called the Messiah 'the Son of God'. The Word of God was the one pleasing the Father by being obedient to Him in the life of Jesus.

[PeteWaldo]

In what way was Jesus the Son of God?

Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
Mark 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, [saying], Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
2Peter 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

The Old Testament prophesied of a Promised Son:

Isaiah 9:6  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Psalms 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Confirmed as fulfilled in Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Regarding the mathematical odds of fulfilled Bible prophecy please visit this page link.
YouTube search Lee Strobel

New Testament Fulfillment THE Son of God:

Matthew 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

Matthew 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

Matthew 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Matthew 26:63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

Matthew 27:40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest [it] in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.

Matthew 27:43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

Matthew 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

Mark 3:11 And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.

Mark 15:39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.

Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Luke 4:3 And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread.

Luke 4:9 And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence:

Luke 4:41 And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking [them] suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.

Luke 8:28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, [thou] Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.

Luke 22:70 Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am.

John 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

John 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?

John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

John 11:4 When Jesus heard [that], he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.

John 11:27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

John 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Acts 9:20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

Romans 1:4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

2 Corinthians 1:19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, [even] by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast [our] profession.

Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

*Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

1John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

1John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

1John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

1John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

1John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet [are] like fine brass;

Jesus was the name given to the male child.....

The letter "J" did not even exist in the English language until the 13th century or so.

[The Celt]

Can the Son of God cease to exist? To the centurion and the others who witnessed the death of Jesus the answer would be yes.

Matthew 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Was the Son of God created by the Holy Spirit giving life to the human egg cell of Mary? If so then Jesus was born into this world as God and not as a human. It is not possible for God to change His nature into that of a human being.

Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

The  Archangel Gabriel did not ask Mary to call her child the Son of God. She gave him the name of Jesus - Latin for Yeshua - on the day of his circumcision. Gabriel was referring to a time to come when he became older.

He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Luke 1: 32 & 33.

After God exalted Jesus, which followed the anointing of him with the Holy Spirit at his baptism, he was to be called the Son of God. It could well be that God was the first one to call him His Son. As the Son of God he was to rule over God's kingdom for ever.

[PeteWaldo]

Can the Son of God cease to exist? To the centurion and the others who witnessed the death of Jesus the answer would be yes.

Matthew 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Was the Son of God created by the Holy Spirit giving life to the human egg cell of Mary?

No. The Father and Son were coexistent from before the world was.

Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

If so then Jesus was born into this world as God and not as a human. It is not possible for God to change His nature into that of a human being.

Now you seem to be suggesting you are the ultimate arbiter as to what is and is not "possible" for God to do. God doesn't "change His nature". God selected/selects ways He chooses to "manifest" or reveal Himself to mankind:

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

The Old Testament scriptures indicate that God manifest Himself in the form of a burning bush too.

Manifest in the flesh of Jesus Christ, wasn't the first time that God chose to reveal Himself in the flesh of a man, because he appeared to Abraham as a man as well:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/god_manifest_flesh.htm#manifest_in_flesh

If my God wanted to manifest or reveal Himself in the flesh of 20 men, in 20 different parts of the world, and speak in 20 different languages simultaneously, He surely could.

Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

The  Archangel Gabriel did not ask Mary to call her child the Son of God. She gave him the name of Jesus - Latin for Yeshua - on the day of his circumcision. Gabriel was referring to a time to come when he became older.

He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Luke 1: 32 & 33.

After God exalted Jesus, which followed the anointing of him with the Holy Spirit at his baptism, he was to be called the Son of God. It could well be that God was the first one to call him His Son. As the Son of God he was to rule over God's kingdom for ever.

[ExMilitary]

Can the Son of God cease to exist? To the centurion and the others who witnessed the death of Jesus the answer would be yes.

Matthew 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Was the Son of God created by the Holy Spirit giving life to the human egg cell of Mary? If so then Jesus was born into this world as God and not as a human. It is not possible for God to change His nature into that of a human being.

Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

The  Archangel Gabriel did not ask Mary to call her child the Son of God. She gave him the name of Jesus - Latin for Yeshua - on the day of his circumcision. Gabriel was referring to a time to come when he became older.

He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Luke 1: 32 & 33.

After God exalted Jesus, which followed the anointing of him with the Holy Spirit at his baptism, he was to be called the Son of God. It could well be that God was the first one to call him His Son. As the Son of God he was to rule over God's kingdom for ever.

Then who, I ask, was the "male child's" biological father?  Who or what caused the pregnancy of Mary with the "male child"?  Was it God?

[The Celt]

The centurion and other people said this; "Truly this was the Son of God." They applied the name 'Son of God' to a human being who died on a cross. They assumed that he was no longer the Son of God. Were they right in doing so? No. In Mark 15: 39 the centurion said, "Truly this man was the Son of God."

But are you right in assuming that a human being was with God the Father before the world was? Is it not more proper to say that the Word of God was with God the Father before the world was, making Him to be the Son of God. John 1: 1 & 2.

No. The Father and Son were coexistent from before the world was.

God has been manifesting and revealing Himself to mankind and forever will. God was manifest in the flesh, whom we call Jesus. Was it necessary for Jesus to become more than human in order for God to manifest Himself through him?

God did appear unto Abraham and Isaac in order to talk to them; just as He did with Adam and Eve, but did God have to assume human form to do so? He also manifested Himself to Moses as an angel, not as a burning bush.

And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. Exodus 3: 2

God appeared as an angel to Gideon, who later recognized the angel to be God Himself.

And when Gideon perceived that he was an angel of the LORD, Gideon said, Alas, O Lord GOD! for because I have seen an angel of the LORD face to face. And the LORD said unto him, Peace be unto thee; fear not: thou shalt not die. Judges 6: 11 - 23.

God also appeared as an angel to the parents of Samson. They too thought that they might die.

Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the LORD. And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God. Judges 13: 2 - 23.

When God revealed Himself through human beings it was mostly through prophecy.

God did at one time reveal Himself to a crowd of Jews in Jerusalem through a group of people who spoke in many different languages to them. Acts 2: 4 - 11. This He did through His Holy Spirit who was the One speaking to the crowd about 'the wonderful works of God'.

Jesus had both a heavenly Father and an earthly father. God was his heavenly Father and Joseph was his earthly father. God breathed life into the human egg cell of Mary and it began to grow into a boy child; just like it would have done had it came in contact with a sperm from a man. Although Joseph was not the biological father of Jesus God expected of Joseph to behave as a father to him. That is why God told him through an angel in a dream to marry Mary when he wanted to call off the wedding because he thought that she had been unfaithful to him. Matthew 1: 20 & 21.

God did not create another divine being in the body of Mary for then there would be two Gods and not one. Instead He created a human being. This is not the reason why Jesus should be called the Son of God. In one sense Jesus was like God because he had no desire to sin, like other human beings, and did not commit any sins.

Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Hebrews 4: 14 & 15.

God was as pleased with Joseph as He was with Mary which is why God wanted Joseph to raise up the boy Jesus as a father would. Jesus would have been keeping the fifth commandment of the law of God by honouring, and obeying, Joseph as his father. Jesus also believed that God was a Father to him. As he was twelve years old Jesus decided to stay behind in Jerusalem in order to speak to lawyers and theologians in the temple of God. Was he being disobedient to his parents? No. They may not have seen Jesus on the day they had to return because they thought that he was with relatives or friends. So they had no opportunity to tell him to return to Nazareth with them. When they found Jesus Mary said, "Thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing." Jesus replied, "I must be about my Father's business." Now if 'Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man', is that not proof that he was human. Luke 2: 52. Not having a biological father does not make Jesus to be divine because he had a biological grandfather called Heli which is further proof of his humanity.

Manifest in the flesh of Jesus Christ, wasn't the first time that God chose to reveal Himself in the flesh of a man, because he appeared to Abraham as a man as well:

[The Celt]

God appeared to Abraham as an angel because He was accompanied by two angels who were sent to Sodom to save Lot's family before the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, and their surrounding districts, were destroyed. Genesis 19: 1. They were also mistaken for men by those in Sodom.

[PeteWaldo]

God appeared to Abraham as an angel....

I recognize that is what Jews who don't yet recognize Christ as their Messiah wish to believe, but if you had clicked on the link I provided or checked with Strong's, you may have seen that isn't so.

Genesis 18:1 And the LORD {Yehovah} appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; 2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men {en-oshe'} stood by him: and when he saw [them], he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,

men
Old Testament Hebrew Definition:
0582 'enowsh {en-oshe'}
from 0605; TWOT - 136a; n m
AV - man 520, certain 10, husbands 3, some 3, merchantmen 2,
persons 2, misc 24; 564
1) man, mortal man, person, mankind
1a) of an individual
1b) men (collective)
1c) man, mankind

Nowhere in the 538 uses of the term does en-oshe' indicate angels.

The men even ate food:  7 And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave [it] unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it. 8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set [it] before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/god_manifest_flesh.htm#manifest_in_flesh

[ExMilitary]

God appeared to Abraham as an angel because He was accompanied by two angels who were sent to Sodom to save Lot's family before the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, and their surrounding districts, were destroyed. Genesis 19: 1. They were also mistaken for men by those in Sodom.

The Celt: You have still not answered my very simple question here http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=5014.msg19273#msg19273

[The Celt]

Quote from: ExMilitary: You have still not answered my very simple question.

I included the answer to your question with the answer to Pete's Question. Sorry about that. Here is the answer.

Jesus had both a heavenly Father and an earthly father. God was his heavenly Father and Joseph was his earthly father. God breathed life into the human egg cell of Mary and it began to grow into a boy child; just like it would have done had it came in contact with a sperm from a man. Although Joseph was not the biological father of Jesus God expected of Joseph to behave as a father to him. That is why God told him, through an angel in a dream, to marry Mary when he wanted to call off the wedding because he thought that she had been unfaithful to him. Matthew 1: 20 & 21.

God did not create another divine being in the body of Mary for then there would be two Gods and not one. Instead He created a human being. This is not the reason why Jesus should be called the Son of God. In one sense Jesus was like God because he had no desire to sin, like other human beings, and did not commit any sins.

Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Hebrews 4: 14 & 15.

God was as pleased with Joseph as He was with Mary which is why God wanted Joseph to raise up the boy Jesus as a father would. Jesus would have been keeping the fifth commandment of the law of God by honouring, and obeying, Joseph as his father. Jesus also believed that God was a Father to him. As he was twelve years old Jesus decided to stay behind in Jerusalem in order to speak to lawyers and theologians in the temple of God. Was he being disobedient to his parents? No. They may not have seen Jesus on the day they had to return because they thought that he was with relatives or friends. So they had no opportunity to tell him to return to Nazareth with them. When they found Jesus Mary said, "Thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing." Jesus replied, "I must be about my Father's business." Now if 'Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man', is that not proof that he was human. Luke 2: 52. Not having a biological father does not make Jesus to be divine because he had a biological grandfather called Heli which is further proof of his humanity.

[The Celt]

Quote from PeteWaldo: The men even ate food:

Sometimes the bible reports about something in an objective way, leaving us to decide if it is true or not. "Truly this man was the Son of God." is what the centurion said after seeing Jesus die. But Jesus was still the Son of God even in death because God raised him from the dead and made him the eternal King of the kingdom of God.

"And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him." is what Abraham saw but the three visitors could still be angels. "Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, 'A man of God came unto me, and his countenance was like the countenance of an angel of God, very terrible'." Judges 13: 6. The mother of Samson also mistook the angel of the Lord for a man, as did her husband, who also offered him a meal, just like Abraham did.

Why did God, and the other two angels, appear to Abraham like men? When God appeared to Abraham before He was always alone with him. This time Abraham was in the company of others; his wife and servants for example. God did not want to frighten anyone by looking like an angel of the Lord, as was the mother of Samson frightened by His appearance. Abraham did recognize one of them to be the Lord God and wanted to be respectful by providing water for them to wash their feet, together with a meal.

And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD. Genesis 18:22
And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
Genesis 19:1

It would be possible for God to appear as a human body that would be exactly like ours but can an angel change into a human being? It was men who left to go to Sodom but it was angels who arrived. Angels only need to change their image to be taken for men. Normally angels wore clothes that were white.

Just because angels have no need to eat is no reason to believe that they cannot eat. After Jesus was resurrected from the dead he ate something in the presence of his disciples, to prove to them that he rose from the dead. Did he need to eat? A resurrected body is like that of an angel, is something Jesus once said. So if Jesus could eat something after his resurrection then why not an angel? After all, to look like us, and to speak, they would need to have a mouth, a tongue and teeth. So, what is to stop angels from eating? The two angels also ate something as they were spending the night with Lot. Did they also fall asleep, like we would do?

I do not think that the Lord God ever choose to reveal himself as a man before He created Jesus. God wanted Jesus to be one of a kind.

[PeteWaldo]

"And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him." is what Abraham saw but the three visitors could still be angels.

No, if it had been angels it would have used the term mal'ak:

04397 mal'ak {mal-awk'}
from an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; TWOT - 1068a; n m
AV - angel 111, messenger 98, ambassadors 4, variant 1; 214
1) messenger, representative
1a) messenger
1b) angel
1c) the theophanic angel

"Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, 'A man of God came unto me, and his countenance was like the countenance of an angel of God, very terrible'." Judges 13: 6.

You helped make my point since mal'ak is used in the very verse you quoted. Nor does the passage from Genesis offer a signpost such as "was like". Yet he addresses the man as YHWH Himself, while recognizing Him as being "the judge of all the earth".

Judges 13: 6. The mother of Samson also mistook the angel of the Lord for a man, as did her husband, who also offered him a meal, just like Abraham did.

However in this case as I mentioned earlier the men "did eat".

It's generally cultists that reject what is apparent, while also denying the divinity of Christ, as you did earlier (who Himself said He and the Father were of one essence or one being).
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=571.0
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=108.0

Jhn 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

So which is it?
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=4256.msg16981#msg16981
We often find that Jehovah's Witnesses are too ashamed to announce they are JWs when they begin posting in the forum.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=4510.0
We have a forum section that can help folks overcome 19th century born cults.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php#c15

[ExMilitary]

Quote from: ExMilitary: You have still not answered my very simple question.

God breathed life into the human egg cell of Mary and it began to grow into a boy child; just like it would have done had it came in contact with a sperm from a man.

Hence, Jesus is the only begotten Son of....?

Luke 2:48-50 make it clear... And, yes, it is just that simple - 2 Corinthians 11:3

[PeteWaldo]

Quote from: ExMilitary: You have still not answered my very simple question.

God breathed life into the human egg cell of Mary and it began to grow into a boy child; just like it would have done had it came in contact with a sperm from a man.

Hence, Jesus is the only begotten Son of....?

Luke 2:48-50 make it clear... And, yes, it is just that simple - 2 Corinthians 11:3

Let alone in prophecy:

Psalms 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Confirmed as fulfilled in Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

[The Celt]

If I understand you properly, Pete, you are saying that two men came with the Lord God to visit Abraham at his home. Am I right? You are of the opinion that these men should not be considered as being angels, for, if they were, then that would mean that the Lord God did appear as an angel of the Lord. Even as an angel of the Lord, God can be still be mistaken as being a man, can He not? The two examples from the book of Judges prove that, don't you think?

If they were men, and not angels, as you say, then they must have been born to someone who was their mother. Then they had to grow up to become adults before they could be described as men. If that did not happen then we must assume that God created them just before He met with Abraham. Now we know from Genesis 18: 22 that these two men left the company of God and Abraham and went towards Sodom. In Genesis 19: 1 we read that instead of two men arriving at Sodom it was two angels. So if we look up the two words of 'men' and 'angels' in a Hebrew / English dictionary, and assume that the bible was being literal, then we are faced with a problem. The bible seems to contradict itself.

It would seem that Lot took them for angels because he bowed down to them. The women, who went to the tomb of Jesus shortly after his resurrection also bowed down to someone.

And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments: And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead? Luke 24: 4 & 5

Now, if two men appeared out of nowhere dressed in bright clothes, would one mistake them for human beings? But the bible mentions that they were men. Something similar happened just before the resurrection of Jesus.

And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow: And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men. Matthew 28: 2 - 4.

The angel, who came from above and rolled away the stone, was also described as having white clothes and whose face shone. This time the bible describes him as an angel. The guards, like the women, were also frightened. They reacted differently by fainting and not by bowing down. Did the women see angels or men?

Although Lot knew they were angels, he still offered them food which they did eat. Some citizens of Sodom noticed the arrival of these angels, and where they stayed because they probably knew where Lot lived. They also mistook them for men who looked attractive to them. Later on they went to Lot's house, together with other men, and demanded that Lot gives these two men over to them.

And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, And they said, Stand back. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door. But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door. And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door. Genesis 19: 9 & 9 - 11.

Is it possible for men, inside a house, to cause other men to become blind, who are outside of this house? Again the bible speaks of them as being angels in verse 15 but as men in verse 16. Why is this so? As the angels were taking the family of Lot out of the city by holding each one by the hand, they did not want to draw attention to themselves by looking different to those around them as they were passing through the city. This would explain why they were called men in verse 16.

And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city. And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city. Genesis 19: 15 & 16.

Is there also a contradiction between these two verses?

[PeteWaldo]

As I indicated in my initial reply, because this forum is primarily involved with helping Muslims overcome the false prophet Muhammad, it is the wrong forum for someone interested in advancing heresy. Your rejection of the deity of Christ puts you at odds with nearly 2,000 years of universal Christian core doctrine.

[The Celt]

You are right, ExMil, it is quite simple when you believe that God has no right to call Himself Father if He never fathered a human child. But that is not the reason why we should call God Father. We call God Father because He is the Creator, who has created life. Men are called father because they, in some small way, have given life to a child. Mankind has created many things in this world but he can never create a living being. This is something that only God can do. So the word father really means 'the giver of life'.

I already stated that I believe that Jesus had a heavenly Father but that has nothing to do with Jesus being called the Son of God. Unless you believe that Jesus was born a god, like those in Greek and Roman mythology, to a goddess who never died and now sits in heaven with a crown on her head and is worshiped by millions of people. Do you?

As I said in an earlier post, the term 'only Begotten of the Father' has nothing to do with the creation or birth of Jesus. By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son. Heb 11:17. As God spoke to Abraham about offering up Isaac God described Isaac as 'your only son' three times. Genesis 22: 2,12 & 16. Was Isaac the only son of Abraham at this time? Abraham had an older son called Ishmael, who no longer lived with Abraham since Isaac was a baby. Why then did God call Isaac his only son?

God rejected Ishmael as the inheritor of the land that he would give to Abraham's descendants, although he was the firstborn and entitled to it. Instead God wanted to give this land to his descendants through Sarah.

And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee! And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. Genesis 17: 18 & 19

So in God's eyes Isaac was the only begotten one through whom God was to fulfil His promises. God also wanted to fulfil a promise through Jesus. In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began. Titus 1: 2. To whom did God give this promise? To the people that He gave to the Messiah before the world was created.

These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. John 17: 1 & 2.
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. John 10: 28.

Jesus inherited eternal life from God so as to give it to those who believe in him unto salvation. This he could only make possible by rising from the dead and becoming eternal himself. Jesus also became the eternal King and eternal High Priest of God's everlasting kingdom. These things were prophesied of him by God Himself.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in
him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3: 16
In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. 1 John 4: 9

The term 'Son of God' is the name given to the King and descendant of King David, whom God has chosen to sit on David's throne and to rule over Israel forever. Luke 1: 31 - 33. The term 'Messiah', or in Greek Christ, was given to him who was to be the eternal High Priest after the order of Melchisedec. A High Priest had to be anointed with holy oil from the sanctuary before he could serve God in the temple, which is why the word Messiah means 'The anointed One'.

For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? Heb 1: 5
So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. Hebrew 5: 5 & 6.

The whole of Psalm seven speaks of the anointed one being begotten of God as His Son in order to reign over converted heathens in a kingdom that fills the whole earth. Verses 7 & 8. This Jesus can only do after being resurrected to eternal life. The term' only begotten of the Father' speaks of his resurrection and not of his creation or birth.

God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. Acts 13: 33.

The reason why the bible says that Jesus is the 'only begotten' is because he was the first to be raised from the dead. Also all those who are saved through his death shall take part in the resurrection at the last day because of his power and authority. Jesus did it to himself, by the will of God, and shall do it to all those who have been saved by him.

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood. Rev 1: 5
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. John 11: 24 & 25

I do hope that I have answered your question well, ExMilitary!

And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. Romans 1: 4.

[The Celt]

I am a humble servant of the Most High God and I do believe in the divinity of CHRIST Jesus our LORD.
Is that how you imagine a Jehovah Witness?

[The Celt]

Daniel was not the only Jew who was to be punished for not obeying the king of Babylon. He had three friends who were to be put to death for not obeying the king. They refused to bow down in the direction of a statue of the king and worship it. For that they were to be thrown into a very hot fire.

Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonished, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king. He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God. Daniel 3: 24 & 25.

Although the king only had three persons thrown into the fire he thought that he saw four men in the flames. Was the forth one really a man? The text does say that it was a man. It is also reported that 'the fourth is like the Son of God'. Are the Scriptures saying that the fourth person was Jesus, the Son of God?

Sometimes we get the impression that the fourth person was sent to the three friends of Daniel to save them from being killed by the fire. That is not true. They put their trust in God to save their lives from this punishment, so the fourth person was not there to deliver them.

If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king. But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up. Daniel 3: 17 & 18.

Why then did God send someone into the fire to be with them? Perhaps just to set them free from the ropes that they were bound with, before being thrown into the fire. We often make this mistake because we compare this story with that of Daniel and how he was thrown into the lions' den for not obeying another king of Babylon. This time it was an angel who prevented Daniel from being harmed by the lions.

And when he came to the den, he cried with a lamentable voice unto Daniel: and the king spake and said to Daniel, O Daniel, servant of the living God, is thy God, whom thou servest continually, able to deliver thee from the lions? Then said Daniel unto the king, O king, live for ever. My God hath sent his angel, and hath shut the lions' mouths, that they have not hurt me: forasmuch as before him innocency was found in me; and also before thee, O king, have I done no hurt. Daniel 6: 20 - 22.

Could it be that God sent an angel to free the men and not a man, or Jesus for that matter, although the Scriptures do say that it was a man? Nebuchadnezzar was of the opinion that it was indeed an angel, for he later said this:

Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king's word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God. Daniel 3: 28.

[ExMilitary]

I do hope that I have answered your question well, ExMilitary!

What exactly are you saying?  At what point in his earthly existence did the man Yeshua receive The divine nature of God?

Please be concise.

[PeteWaldo]

I am a humble servant of the Most High God and I do believe in the divinity of CHRIST Jesus our LORD.
Is that how you imagine a Jehovah Witness?

No it isn't. Sorry for what you indicate may be my false impression that came from this:

Not having a biological father does not make Jesus to be divine.....

The fact that the Father and Son are of one essence, or one being, is what makes Jesus divine. Sorry my friend but there is simply too much confusion like:

The reason why the bible says that Jesus is the 'only begotten' is because he was the first to be raised from the dead.

I don't really have an interest in spending time sorting through a mass of misunderstanding that is so inconsequential to our calling here. But I'm guessing you get a lot of that as you drift in and out of forums.

[The Celt]

As Jesus was put on trial by the Jews at night time the High Priest asked him to tell him something. "I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God."  Matthew 26: 63. What exactly did he mean?

To a Jew the Messiah was also to be the Son of God. They also believed that God would make the Messiah king over the everlasting kingdom that God was to bring into the world. Only a descendant of King David was able to become this king because God promised King David that through the prophet Nathan. God also promised to be a Father to him and to call him His Son.

And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build me an house, and I will establish his throne for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore. 1 Chronicles 17: 11 - 14.

Since this kingdom was to last forever the Jews believed that the Son of God could never die. Anyone claiming to be the Messiah and died was rejected by the Jews as the promised King of Israel. This is why the Jews demanded from Jesus to come down from the cross, so as to prove that he is the Son of God.

And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross. Matthew 27:40

The kingdom of God came into being as John began his preaching ministry. Even then it was possible to enter into the kingdom of God. We are placed in this kingdom by the Holy Spirit, who enables us to believe in this kingdom.
 
The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. Luke 16:16

As citizens of this kingdom we are now free from the power that Satan had over us. The Son of God now protects us from Satan and temptation, although not completely until the day of resurrection comes. That is why the Almighty placed us inside His kingdom.

Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son. Colossians 1: 13.

This is why Jesus, the Messiah, was also thought of as being the 'Son of God'. God had chosen him to be this king shortly after his baptism by John the Baptist. That day God called Jesus his Son. John the Baptist was a witness to this fact.

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God. John 1: 29 & 34

Not only John the Baptist believed this to be so but a disciple of Jesus also.

Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel. John 1: 49