See how desperate you are to hide from the truth to advance a lie? Any lie? That's because you are filled with the spirit of the father of lies. The scriptures point out that as a child he was familiar with the Old Testament scriptures, that Muhammadans reject. But that verse doesn't say that "all scripture that predated Timothy" is inspired by God. It says all scripture is inspired. Period. Let alone that the gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke were in all likelihood in existence when that verse was penned. Plus the author knew the whole subject of the Gospel anyway, since he was contemporary to that period of history.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/new_testament.htm
You were absolutely right when you wrote that Timothy only knew about the OT and maybe other aprocrypha when he was a child. To him, these were inspired.
Timothy never knew of any NT scriptures, that is for sure. If he thought that scriptures were inspired, it had to be the scriptures he knew... certainly not the NT.
Timothy LIVED the new covenant! He was contemporary to it!
Otherwise, he would definitely spoke of a coming Book that talks about the coming Christ. If you have the latter, show me.
His book was penned in around 61-67 AD. Jesus Christ - the Messiah - had already come and gone by the time he penned his book, as even Islam would teach, through Muhammad's big fat gnostic lie (that he most likely got from Waraqa bin Naufal) that it only appeared as though Jesus was crucified.
http://www.petewaldo.com/simon_magnus_gnostics_ebionites_islam.htm#basilidesThis is a more acceptable approach.[/size]
Besides which we can know that scripture is inspired by God because, as my prior post points out, the crucifixion of Christ was a fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy. Indeed over 1/4 of the Bible is prophecy - with most of it fulfilled:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/bible_prophecy.htm
I can help to show you that many of these 'prophecies' are actually non-prophecies in the first place, or were not fulfilled in Christ.
Set up a new post and we discuss earnestly.
Now look at who wants to copy and paste things he is clueless about, as he accused when first coming to the forum. Or are you going to pretend they were your own conclusions from so many years of study of the New and Old Testaments? And all for what? To continue blaspheming THE Son of of the one true God Yahweh, and rejecting the blood He shed, to save you from dying in your sins.
If you aren't engaging in taqiyyah and actually do want to discuss earnestly, lets start with this Psalms 22, that Jesus made reference to after He was crucified (then we will move on to Isaiah 53, the two prophecies that have brought opened so many Jews eyes throughout the Christian era). The chapter may be found at this link:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/psalms_22.htmBy way of information:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/bible_prophecy.htm"Professor Emeritus of Science at Westmont College, Peter Stoner, has calculated the probability of one man fulfilling the major prophecies made concerning the Messiah.
The estimates were worked out by twelve different classes representing some 600 university students.The students carefully weighed all the factors, discussed each prophecy at length, and examined the various circumstances which might indicate that men had conspired together to fulfill a particular prophecy.
They made their estimates conservative enough so that there was finally unanimous agreement even among the most skeptical students.However Professor Stoner then took their estimates, and made them even more conservative.
He also encouraged other skeptics or scientists to make their own estimates to see if his conclusions were more than fair. Finally, he submitted his figures for review to a committee of the American Scientific Affiliation. Upon examination, they verified that his calculations were dependable and accurate in regard to the scientific material presented (Peter Stoner, Science Speaks, Chicago: Moody Press, 1969, 4).
For example, concerning Micah 5:2, where it states the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem Ephrathah, Stoner and his students determined the average population of BETHLEHEM from the time of Micah to the present; then they divided it by the average population of the earth during the same period.
They concluded that the chance of one man being born in Bethlehem was one in 300,000, (or one in 2.8 x 10^5 - rounded),
After examining only eight different prophecies (Idem, 106), they conservatively estimated that the chance of one man fulfilling all eight prophecies was one in 10^17.To illustrate how large the number 10^17 IS (a figure with 17 zeros), Stoner gave this illustration:
If you mark one of ten tickets, and place all the tickets in a hat, and thoroughly stir them, and then ask a blindfolded man to draw one, his chance of getting the right ticket is one in ten.
Suppose that we take 10^17 silver dollars and lay them on the face of Texas. They'll cover all of the state two feet deep. Now mark one of these silver dollars and stir the whole mass thoroughly, all over the state. Blindfold a man and tell him that he can travel as far as he wishes, but he must pick up one silver dollar and say that this is the right one. What chance would he have of getting the right one? Just the same chance that the prophets would've had of writing these eight prophecies and having them all come true in any one man, from their day to the present time, providing they wrote them in their own wisdom (Idem, 106-107)."
Neither Jews nor Christians consider the apocrypha inspired because of internal errors and such. In other words, it's not scripture. The Roman Catholics didn't even add the apocrypha to their Bible until 1546.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=902.0
I know. This does not helpyour position.
It doesn't change our position at all. What it does is reflect poorly on Roman Catholics to have added pre-Christian era books to their Bible, that neither Jews nor Christians considerd inspired, nearly 15 centuries after the scriptures were complete.
If Timothy, in his childhood, knew the scriptures (which could well be the OT and other books read by the Jews at that time), and believed that the scriptures were inspired, then surely it would be a grave mistake for the Church or later Christians to remove these scriptures and termed them non-canonical.
There was a lot of stuff written both by Jewish sages and early Christian fathers, that demonstrated itself to be uninspired, which Jews and Christians were intelligent and inspired enough to be able to recognize. None of it, however, reaches the level of fraud and dishonesty that the 16th century Muhammadan forgery of the so-called "Gospel of Barnabas" does - knowingly flat out lying (taqiyyah) with full intent - that so many even Muhammadan Imams have been fooled by, that have obviously never even read it.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/gospel_of_barnabas.htmMuhammadans on the other hand, believe in a book penned by a single guy - that not a single person ever heard his Allah give a "revelation" to (because it was largely plagiarized from Jabr, Waraqa and others) - that over the short span of just 23 years of recitations contained so much self-contradiction by his alter-ego "Allah", that a whopping 71 out of only 114 surahs are subject to abrogation.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=116.0Let alone all the Muhammadan fictional tripe that was created and put to the pen in the 7th to 10th centuries AD, that masquerades as thousands of years of pre-Islamic history, without reference to any actual historical or archaeological record that preceded the 5th century AD. In other words, pure poppycock.
http://www.historyofmecca.com/geography_mecca_islam.htmDoes it make you wonder that Paul was discussing with Timothy on what he believed (about Jannes and Jambres), and you do not find that story anywhere in your scripture.
That a couple of magicians existed doesn't have anything to do whether the apocrypha is inspired or not. To say that writings are uninspired, doesn't mean that they may not contain some things that are true.
It is interesting though, that you mention those two magicians, since Timothy used those Godless men as an example to describe liars that contend against the truth, just like Muhammad did and you do:
2Ti 3:7
Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.It makes me smile to read that you accused Muslims of rejecting your scripture........
Don't be silly. It isn't an accusation. Nor is it about you and I.
It is a matter of absolute fact that Muslims reject not just our scriptures, but the whole subject of them, because the stand-alone antichrist false prophet you follow denied the whole subject of the Gospel........ and yet you Christians have the joy of taking way scriptures that Timothy and early Christians believed.[/size]
See what a foolish and easily exposed lie you believe? That's because you follow the father of lies. From the Jewish Encyclopedia:
"The Tanakh (Hebrew Bible) consists of a collection of writings dating from approximately the 13th - 3rd centuries BCE. These books were included in the Jewish canon by the Talmudic sages at Yavneh around the end of the first century CE, after the destruction of the Second Temple. However, there are many other Jewish writings from the Second Temple Period which were excluded from the Tanakh; these are known as the Apocrypha and the Pseudepigrapha."
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/apocrypha.htmlThe apocrypha is not scripture according to Jews and Christians, because their own internal evidence demonstrates they were not inspired. Jews and Christians share our old covenant scriptures. Jews exclude the Apocrypha from their Tanakh as being uninspired. The old covenant scriptures make up the largest part of the Christian Bible.
