Third - and in-forum chat with psychlopes

[Peter]

This conversation to remain between Pete and psychlopes as I offered him assurances of that when I invited him.

Should we revisit Abraham as a subject?

[psychlopes]

Ok, sounds good to me... as your question, or put forth your claim, and I'll reply to it, if you feel unsatisfied we'll keep addressing the issue, however we should have a mechanism for realizing when we've reached an impasse.

[Peter]

Ok, sounds good to me... as your question, or put forth your claim, and I'll reply to it, if you feel unsatisfied we'll keep addressing the issue, however we should have a mechanism for realizing when we've reached an impasse.

Hey psy. Thank you and welcome to the forum.
I think we'll be able to work things out OK, or figure out a "mechanism" as we go.

[psychlopes]

OK, good enough for me. How about a one-day limit on replying, a person might be busy for less than that might not be enough, but more than that might be too slow.

[Peter]

OK, good enough for me. How about a one-day limit on replying, a person might be busy for less than that might not be enough, but more than that might be too slow.

How bout we leave it unlimited and see how it develops?

[psychlopes]

OK

[Peter]

[The prior post was removed, as it is repeated below, but in better order]
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=16&v=1&t=KJV#1
Abraham's wife Sarah believed herself to be too advanced in age to bear a child so...

Gen 16:1 Now Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name [was] Hagar. 2 And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai. 3 And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife. 4 And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes. 5 And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong [be] upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the LORD judge between me and thee. 6 But Abram said unto Sarai, Behold, thy maid [is] in thy hand; do to her as it pleaseth thee. And when Sarai dealt hardly with her, she fled from her face.

[Peter]

Gen 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I [am] the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. 2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

Gen 17:15 And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah [shall] her name [be].
16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be [a mother] of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

So the Lord allowed Sarah to bear a son.

17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall [a child] be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?
18 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!
19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, [and] with his seed after him.

So God established His covenant with the seed of Isaac.

20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. 21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year. 22 And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.

[psychlopes]

I know you're still writing, so I don't mean to interrupt, but I just want to remind you to please give a clear cut question or claim in the end that needs response.

[Peter]

I know you're still writing, so I don't mean to interrupt, but I just want to remind you to please give a clear cut question or claim in the end that needs response.

Yes. I should have organized it better before I posted it.

We see that God's covenant is with the seed of Isaac. Is that your understanding?

[psychlopes]

That is my understanding of what came in the bible, yes.

[Peter]

That is my understanding of what came in the bible, yes.

That is the understanding that God's people have had for 3500 years, including the 2000 years before Mohammed was ever born.

[psychlopes]

I still do not see the question? If you want to prove that we don't see eye-to-eye on this, then I agree. The fact that Jews have held this belief for centuries even before our prophet was born is not a proof of the validity of the claim. Ishmael was the son of an Egyptian woman, who was also Sarah's handmaiden, So Jews had a motive for denying that Ishmael was included in the covenant and in God's blessing. In either case, Muslims believe both Ishmael and Isaac were God's prophets and they were both righteous people - you don't believe Ishmael was a prophet which is your prerogative, but depending on the bible to prove your point of view is not practical, since as a Muslim I believe the bible is not the pure word of God, people in the far east have beliefs that date further back in time than that, and I don't think you would argue that Hinduism or Buddhism etc... is correct simply because it's ancient.

[Peter]

I still do not see the question?

Since I don't know exactly what Muslims believe about this my question was "Is that your understanding?"

If you want to prove that we don't see eye-to-eye on this, then I agree.

Then show me your understanding and the basis on which you understand it.

The fact that Jews have held this belief for centuries even before our prophet was born is not a proof of the validity of the claim.

So that Jews understood this for the 2000 years before Mohammed is invalid.

Ishmael was the son of an Egyptian woman, who was also Sarah's handmaiden, So Jews had a motive for denying that Ishmael was included in the covenant and in God's blessing.

But Ishmael was with Sarah's handmaiden Hagar, and Isaac was with Abraham's wife Sarah.
You even agree.
Surely you can then see that the only "reason" to suspect Isaac's half-brother was actually the one the covenant, and that the Jews got it wrong for 2000 years, didn't come along until the 7th century.

[I will break this into separate posts.]

[Peter]

In either case, Muslims believe both Ishmael and Isaac were God's prophets and they were both righteous people - you don't believe Ishmael was a prophet ....

I believe Ishmael was Isaac's half-brother as do you.
Abraham threw Hagar and Ishmael out of the house for Ishmael's mocking of Isaac:

Genesis 21:8 And the child grew, and was weaned: and Abraham made a great feast the [same] day that Isaac was weaned. 9 And Sarah saw THE SON OF HAGAR the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, MOCKING.


Thereby disowning Ishmael. Here's how we know:

10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: FOR THE SON OF THIS BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE HEIR WITH MY SON, [even] with ISAAC.

Abraham took Sarah's advice and cast out Hagar and Ishmael, thereby disowning the son he had with Sarah's handmaiden. What did God think about that?

Genesis 21:12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for IN ISAAC SHALL THY SEED BE CALLED.

So God comforted Abraham in having done the right thing by listening to Sarah and throwing out Ishamel for his mocking. We see in the 22:2 that God doesn't even recognize Ishmael as a son of Abraham:

Genesis 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, THINE ONLY [SON] ISAAC, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

[psychlopes]

"Surely you can then see that the only "reason" to suspect Isaac's half-brother was actually the one the covenant, and that the Jews got it wrong for 2000 years, didn't come along until the 7th century."

Yes, the reason to suspect came later in time, however what we as Muslims say is that the time interval doesn't matter because the correction (at least to Muslims) came from God. If we claimed that this is the understanding of some historian who came like you said centuries after the event , I would agree with you about it being suspicious, but we're telling you that it came from God. Anyway, I'll need some time to gather sources to present you the basis of my belief, but they are not proof of my view point any more that quoting the bible for me is proof of yours.

[Peter]

......which is your prerogative, but depending on the bible to prove your point of view is not practical,.....

Why don't you quote from the Quran to make your point?

..... since as a Muslim I believe the bible is not the pure word of God,......

I do understand that you must necessarily REJECT ALL of the prophets of the 1600 year record of the bible to follow the 23 year 7th century record of Mohammed.

Perhaps you don't understand the Jew's scribal methodology.

"To suggest there was tampering to the Old Testament documents prior to 300 B.C. shows a misunderstanding of Israelite scribal methodology and of their reverence for the Scriptures. First of all, biblical scrolls were written on the inside only to prevent any smudging or smearing that might lead to a misreading of the text. When being copied -- besides many parallel readings -- the copy was compared with the original in every way humanly possible.

The words in each column were counted and then the letters. The first, last, and middle letter and word in each column had to be identical to the original. If the number of words or the number of letters of the copy differed from the original, the copy was destroyed. Then they counted the words and letters in the whole document. They divided the document into quarters and into eighths. The first, last and middle letter in each section had to be the same. The number of words and the number of letters in each section had to be the same.  The middle word and the middle letter in each section had to be the same, and they had to be the same for the whole document. If not, the copy was destroyed. Not corrected, but destroyed!"
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=97.0

Compare that to the Quran that requires abrogation of a whopping 71 out of only 114 suras because of the changing whims of it's author: http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=116.0

[psychlopes]

Well that is the bible's account of things, in Islam Abraham did separate between Hagar and Sarah, Hagar went to Mecca (Arabia) with her son, but it wasn't because Ishmael mocked Isaac, and he didn't disown Ishmael, Abraham kept visiting them in Arabia - and Abraham built the Kabaa there (I think with the help of Ishmael if I'm not mistaken). As for the reason, some scholars say it is because he feared Sarah's jealousy because Hagar gave birth to the first born son for Abraham, but I have no concrete evidence of that last part (at least to my knowledge - haven't researched the matter greatly). Anyway. I need to go now, I'll be back later god willing to answer the other part of your question with references. please don't add too many new comments, I don't want to be overwhelmed when I come back.

[psychlopes]

"Why don't you quote from the Quran to make your point?"

Like I said earlier, I will, however unfortunately I've not reached the point of memorizing by heart all the verses that I need to answer you thoroughly. I'll get back to you.

[Peter]

"Surely you can then see that the only "reason" to suspect Isaac's half-brother was actually the one the covenant, and that the Jews got it wrong for 2000 years, didn't come along until the 7th century."

Yes, the reason to suspect came later in time, however what we as Muslims say is that the time interval doesn't matter because the correction (at least to Muslims) came from God. If we claimed that this is the understanding of some historian who came like you said centuries after the event , I would agree with you about it being suspicious, but we're telling you that it came from God.

But the bible is filled with fulfilled prophecy that proves it's veracity through prophet after prophet. Yet as far as I know not a single prophecy of mohammed's has come to pass.

You follow Mohammed in direct contradiction to the prophets and "messengers" of the bible even though his "revelations" were without a single witness. Muslims rely solely on Mohammed's singular account, of what he claimed, Allah told him. Indeed so often did Mohammed come up with a new "revelation" soon after visiting his good friend and former "christian" Jabr, that the local nickname for Jabr became "holy spirit".
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=452.0
So conspicuous and widespread was this view of Jabr, that Mohammed even had to attempt some damage control in the form of a sura:
Sura 16.103 We know indeed that they say, "It is a man that teaches him." The tongue of him they wickedly point to is notably foreign, while this is Arabic, pure and clear.

The bible is filled with men confirming each other.
Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

And being confirmed through prophecy.

Anyway, I'll need some time to gather sources to present you the basis of my belief, but they are not proof of my view point any more that quoting the bible for me is proof of yours.

I can quote you prophecy after prophecy that has been fulfilled by many different prophets - including Jesus.
I follow ALL of the prophets of the bible, and you follow a single 7th century prophet that contradicted them.
One that even had a special "revelation" from Allah to allow him to steal his stepson's wife, for example.

You seem to be suggesting that God would allow His people to walk in an error as egregious - indeed opposite - for 2000 years, before sending Mohammed along to straighten His people out.

Does that really make sense to you? Could you really think you could possibly believe that, if you hadn't been trained to?

[Peter]

Well that is the bible's account of things, in Islam Abraham did separate between Hagar and Sarah, Hagar went to Mecca (Arabia) with her son, but it wasn't because Ishmael mocked Isaac, and he didn't disown Ishmael,......

But as I showed you earlier, even God disowned Ishmael as a son to Abraham, referring to Isaac as Abraham's ONLY SON.
It is obvious in the text that Sarah made a mistake in her plan for producing a son with her handmaiden.

..... Abraham kept visiting them in Arabia - and Abraham built the Kabaa there (I think with the help of Ishmael if I'm not mistaken). As for the reason, some scholars say it is because he feared Sarah's jealousy because Hagar gave birth to the first born son for Abraham,.....

But Ishmael was to be Sarah's son, not Hagar's. Hagar was the one with reason to be jealous, and she was:
5 And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong [be] upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes:
Later on, God allowed Sarah to bear.

.... but I have no concrete evidence of that last part (at least to my knowledge - haven't researched the matter greatly). Anyway. I need to go now, I'll be back later god willing to answer the other part of your question with references.

If you want to move on to another subject that requires less research (and being a Christian I am a little less versed in the Old Testament than the new myself). How about my allegation that Mohammed was a thief?

please don't add too many new comments, I don't want to be overwhelmed when I come back.

You make a claim of corruption of the bible, but did it ever strike you as to how perfectly opposite Mohammed's book is? One could ponder a little detail here or there, but element after element is the perfect opposite. Like Sarah being jealous rather than Hagar for example.
Sarah was Abraham's wife. She believed herself too advanced in age to conceive a child for Abraham. Her plan was to use her handmaiden Hagar, to have a child, to be raised as Abraham and Sarah's son.

What reason would Sarah have to be jealous of Hagar, when God finally made her able to have her own legitimate son with her husband Abraham?

Do you really think God would allow His book to be changed, to be the PERFECT OPPOSITE, of the understanding that His people have had for 3500 years?

[psychlopes]

It's not a matter of researching the answer, but rather digging up the references. I know what I want to say, it's the supporting verses and whatnot that I need time with, I would rather we stick to the topic at hand a while longer, because you made some allegations that I would like to address. Anyway it won't be long, I just need to go with the family to meet some friends, and when I'm back later in the evening I will reply. I Remember whatever other questions you have till later, but also remember that after this I'll get to challenge you with a question or two of my own before you get to ask me again. Or at least I thought I made it clear that this is my wish regarding how to discuss here.

[Peter]

It's not a matter of researching the answer, but rather digging up the references. I know what I want to say, it's the supporting verses and whatnot that I need time with, I would rather we stick to the topic at hand a while longer, because you made some allegations that I would like to address. Anyway it won't be long, I just need to go with the family to meet some friends, and when I'm back later in the evening I will reply. I Remember whatever other questions you have till later, but also remember that after this I'll get to challenge you with a question or two of my own before you get to ask me again. Or at least I thought I made it clear that this is my wish regarding how to discuss here.

This source isn't bad for word searches in the Quran, and easy to copy and paste. All you need to remember is a word or two from the verse you are seeking. Yusuf Ali translation is second down on the upper left drop-down menu:
http://www.islamicity.com/Quransearch/

[Peter]

This bears singling out and repeating:
Muslims rely solely on Mohammed's singular account - that is they take his word for - what he claimed, Allah revealed to him.
Then they turn around, and without hesitation, say it is Allah's own words.
Including even the self-serving suras like the one where Allah accommodated Mohammed's taking of his stepson's wife, and the one that allowed only Mohammed all the wives he wanted. http://www.beholdthebeast.com/#prophet The ones that allow sexually enslaving the daughters and wives of the vanquished. http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=456.0
Yet NONE of his "revelations" were witnessed by others and not a single prophecy has been fulfilled.

Stunningly, on that basis, Muslims are willing to reject the 1600 year record of God's Word, that His people have followed faithfully for 3500 years, revealed through many dozens of prophets and witnesses, that had stunning fulfillment of their prophecies, for a 7th century come lately that contradicted those prophets and taught the exact opposite of Jesus Christ. http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=148.0 Prophets of the Old Testament that Jews and Christians consider the inerrant Word of God, and the New Testament that Christians consider the inerrant Word of God, replaced by a 23 year record, recited by a single 7th century illiterate, that was left in such a mess that a whopping 71 out of only 114 suras are subject to abrogation.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=116.0
The inspiration:
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=452.0

Surah 5:101 O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble....

1Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

102 Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith.

Here's what they lost their faith in Mohammed to:

Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

"Allah has hated for you three things: ... 3. And asking too many questions (in disputed religious matters)." (Dr. Khan, Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol. 2, #555)

[psychlopes]

See , you're taking advantage of the fact that I'm getting too busy to answer you quickly, that you are showering me with new claims, when we agreed on taking things one claim at a time, and only one claim per turn per person. I'm a Subtitler, and I have 3 files that should be delivered by the end of today or I'll lose an account.I would love to answer you more quickly, but you're the one who said pop-up whenever you can, and keep response time unlimited, right? so, please respect the terms we agreed on, and wait for my response, I'm not running away from the fight, but I'll tackle one point at a time, and since you're the one who suggested it, I'll do it at my own pace.

Peace