Author Topic: no knowledge, but only conjecture  (Read 25835 times)

jimi

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no knowledge, but only conjecture
« on: August 24, 2009, 11:45:34 PM »
The difference between Modern Christianity and Islam:

"...so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture..."

Yet the four accounts of the crucifixion do not agree:
"And it was the third hour, and they crucified him." Mark 15.25
"...and about the sixth hour..." John 19:14
Last words on the cross: http://www.rationalchristianity.net/last_words.html
Sign on the cross: http://www.rationalchristianity.net/sign_cross.html
More contradictions:  http://atheism.about.com/od/gospelcontradictions/p/Crucifixion.htm

"For many bare false witness against him, but their witness agreed not together." Mark 14.56

The four, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John also note that none of the disciples were present but watched from a distance, from afar and that they had all abandoned him and left him alone.  Thus it can be concluded that they had no knowledge, only conjecture.
John alone mentions who was at the crucifixion, yet not in agreement with the other three.
They had no knowledge, even the authorities, the priests and the Romans did not know Jesus nor recognized him from the 12 but employed Judas to identify him. They did know who they had crucified. It could have been one disciples who understood Jesus and took up his cross:

"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." Matthew 16.24

"...And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." Matthew 10.38

The 12 were not worthy, nor were the four. Only Simon of Cyrene took up the cross and he was not even considered a disciple.

those who differ therein are full of doubts

And the four accounts confirm this:

"O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?" Matthew 14.31
"O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves...
"How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?" Matthew 16.8-11

Death on the cross is not the covenant of Jesus but the plot by his enemies to discredit him as the Messiah.  Anti-Christ are the Jews who deny Jesus as the Messiah, not Islam:

"O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah."

The warning is beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees who have corrupted the message with lies and false teachings including the sacrifices and offerings to pay for sin: "For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you. But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward." Jeremiah 7.22-24

"But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice..." Matthew 9.13, 12.7; Hosea 6:6.


Peter

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Re: no knowledge, but only conjecture
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2009, 10:42:52 AM »
Hi Jimmy, and welcome to the forum.  :)

Sorry I didn't notice your post earlier or I would have responded to it.
Before discussing details of your post, can I ask if you have ever read the New Testament and the Gospel, and if so do you understand what the primary subject is?
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/

Peter

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Re: no knowledge, but only conjecture
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2009, 11:13:58 AM »
Anti-Christ are the Jews who deny Jesus as the Messiah, not Islam:

From where do you draw that conclusion?
I'm sure you would agree that simply stating something doesn't make it true.

jimi

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Re: no knowledge, but only conjecture
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2009, 08:50:46 PM »
Quote
"Anti-Christ are the Jews who deny Jesus as the Messiah, not Islam"

I believe this statement is logical and self-evident; the Jew certainly deny Jesus as the Messiah and are therefore "against" Jesus as the Christ. They curse him and refuse to even mention him name!

On the other hand, Islam acknowledges him as the Messiah.

I have read the New Testament and the Gospel but, I'm sorry, I don't understand the 'primary subject'. The question of 'what is the primary subject' is perhaps another topic, however; I would like to limit our discussion to the issue of crucifixion in the Christian faith contrasted with these Biblical references and in the context of the verse of the Quran presented above:


"For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

"...And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." Mark 12.33

Peter

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Re: no knowledge, but only conjecture
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2009, 10:19:55 PM »
Quote
"Anti-Christ are the Jews who deny Jesus as the Messiah, not Islam"

I believe this statement is logical and self-evident;......

Hi Jimi. God isn't about what you believe to be self-evident. Nor about our failed human logic but rather how he expressed Himself through ALL of His prophets and witnesses.

1 John 2:22  Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=252.0

Is that easy enough to understand?

Peter

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Re: no knowledge, but only conjecture
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2009, 10:22:32 PM »
....... the Jew certainly deny Jesus as the Messiah and are therefore "against" Jesus as the Christ.

Jews were always waiting for their promised Son:

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Some didn't recognize Jesus was that promised Son because they were looking for a great king. They got one but He didn't appear the way they expected Him. They recognize the Son of God, they just don't recognize that Jesus is their promised Son.

It seems God may have blinded some to the Gospel:

Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

They curse him and refuse to even mention him name!

You are carrying Mohammed's bigotry and hatred against all Jews. Just as I see that Christian Gentiles are different from atheist Gentiles I see regenerate Jews are different that atheist Jews (but I am also called to love atheist Jews).
Can you see your own bigotry? Mohammed is the source:

Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.'" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vtt8V25lGmc
http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=1463wmv&ak=null

None of the Jews I know would curse Jesus. This may be why:

1Cr 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Peter

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Re: no knowledge, but only conjecture
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2009, 10:37:56 PM »
On the other hand, Islam acknowledges him as the Messiah.

So does Satan. But we are to follow Jesus as He is revealed through His Word.

I have read the New Testament and the Gospel but, I'm sorry, I don't understand the 'primary subject'. The question of 'what is the primary subject' is perhaps another topic, however; I would like to limit our discussion to the issue of crucifixion in the Christian faith contrasted with these Biblical references and in the context of the verse of the Quran presented above:

Let's do. Would you like to move these questions to that thread?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=617.0

"For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; .....

That would be a good insight for a suicide bomber or Jihadist, wouldn't it?

......and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

A burnt offering that is done as a routine is irrelevant on it's own. Just like repetitive prayers.

"...And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." Mark 12.33


Indeed. The new covenant we are given can be understood as soon as someone is confident they conform to this:

Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Once we can be confident we love everyone the rest of the law is automatically written on our hearts.
I did a quick run-down of the old and new covenants there too:
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=617.0

Steve

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Re: no knowledge, but only conjecture
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2009, 01:42:10 AM »

"For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

Hi Jimi.
Some would say that what I am going to say to you is a heresy but nonetheless, it is what came to me after I accused God of not being able to accept the forgiveness of sins without the suffering and death of Christ.
I felt we were in fact better than God because we are told to just forgive. So is our love greater than Gods?
On the contrary!

If we look back at what was going on in the Old Testament Times, we see people everywhere offering up sacrifices to God. Human and animal alike. The Gods were seen to be angry for some reason. God of the wind, God of volcanoes, earthquakes, lightning. God was displeased about something. So religions about various god came into being. God was indeed unknown.

God set apart a nation from out of the world that was intended to restore harmony between mankind and God - for God did indeed desire mercy and not sacrifice!
Jesus is also referred to as the Son of Man. Mankind would not have accepted God without some form of sacrifice. Human and animal sacrifices would still be here to this day. And still are to a degree!

God set Abraham a task. to offer up his son. But God did not really want him to do that. So made a promise
that He would provide the offering Himself. Then came the annual offering of lambs. This may have been to prevent the Jews from going the way of the world. This became known as the Passover.

It was at the time of Passover that Christ was crucified. His death had meaning. For death is the wages of sin. Sin could not hold him, for Christ has no sin of his own account. So He raised again and conquered death. While on the cross, he said something important, "Father, forgive them, because they don't know what they are doing" On the cross not only did Jesus show great love back, but he also obtained forgiveness of sins.
He alone is the perfect sacrifice to God. By it we can come to know the great love that God does indeed have for us.
We might take for granted today how many false religions have been ejected from this world on account of what Christ has done.

God had made mankind in His own Image. God is a Spirit. It is this connection that was lost. Mankind became of just body and soul. All over the world people of just body and soul were, and still are, trying to reach up to God who is spirit, and so have limited knowledge about God. We see this very apparent in the Old Testament. Where there is a confusion about God.

It was Christ that made God properly known.

It is also by way of Christ that union with God can be restored - body - soul and spirit.
God has brought into being a New Covent in Christ based on love - the covenant God wanted at the very beginning , mankind rebelled against Him. If we look at the things Jesus did and taught we see that He is the only way. He lived and taught the one perfect Love. And if we look there can be no greater love than what he did on the cross. In Jesus we see that God has given every reason to love Him, and please Him.

As I get time I'll have a look at the seeming contradictions that might look to be there surrounding the crucifixion. So keep you eyes peeled if you don't get an answer meanwhile.

I hope this has been of some help to you.

God bless.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 01:46:14 AM by Steve »

Steve

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Re: no knowledge, but only conjecture
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2009, 02:01:52 AM »
...  Anti-Christ are the Jews who deny Jesus as the Messiah, not Islam:

Jimmi, There are many antichrists. Anyone against Christ is an antichrist.

Islam is different.
It does not teach Christ truly crucified but teaches God cheated by substituting with another.
Islam accuses God of deception. Such is alien to God for in God there is no lie.

Now this is important. Islam teaches that Allah is the god of this world, and the greatest of deceivers.
The bible shows satan is the god of this world, and the Father of lies.

It is through the death, and resurrection of Christ that satan was unlimately defeated. Jesus rebuked Peter in no uncertain terms when Peter tried to talk Jesus out of going to Jerusalem., "Get behind me satan!"

There becomes motive for satan not to want Christ crucified.

It is through Christ's resurrection that unity with god can be made - the outpouring of the holy spirit.

Islam makes denial of that.

The Mecca of Islam sits on 7 hills of  Ancient Babylon at around the time of Daniel.

Muhammad told his followers to go out and lie and even to kill. Muhammad also had great appetite for sex.
Muhammad did not live by the commandments of God. A true prophet would have done.

I hope that has been of help.

God bless.

Peter

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Re: no knowledge, but only conjecture
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2009, 08:14:56 AM »
God is a Spirit.

God has a Spirit.

Exd 31:3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,

1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

It is this connection that was lost. Mankind became of just body and soul.

No doubt for many, but not all.

Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.

All over the world people of just body and soul were, and still are, trying to reach up to God who is spirit, and so have limited knowledge about God. We see this very apparent in the Old Testament. Where there is a confusion about God.

There is always confusion about God by those that are not His. Why pick on the Old Testament Saints?


It was Christ that made God properly known.

Maybe an unfortunate choice of terms. God made Himself "properly known" to His, before He was manifest on earth in the flesh.

Peter

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Re: no knowledge, but only conjecture
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2009, 08:19:52 AM »
Muhammad told his followers to go out and lie and even to kill. Muhammad also had great appetite for sex.

http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=456.0

Peter

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Re: no knowledge, but only conjecture
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2009, 08:22:31 AM »
The difference between Modern Christianity and Islam:

"...so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture..."

Jimi, What do you believe happened on the cross?
What became of Jesus?
Where was he during, shortly after, and long after that event?

resistingrexmundi

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Re: no knowledge, but only conjecture
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2009, 08:31:44 AM »
"... So made a promise that He would provide the offering Himself. Then came the annual offering of lambs. This may have been to prevent the Jews from going the way of the world. This became known as the Passover."

What is very important to note is that because God cannot lie He is bound by His promises just as we are. His judgment will come to those who will not turn from sin. Hence His judgment was poured out on Egypt, a nation given plenty of time to turn from their treatment of the Israelites. Even in all this though He did not intend to destroy the righteous along with the wicked and so commanded the Israelites to cover their doorways with the blood of a lamb to signal to God that they were seeking His mercy. This became the Passover. Literally a Passover of God's judgment. This holiday shows first and foremost an act of obedience and willingness to submit to God. Even in all of this His mercy was the ultimate goal.

The connection cannot be lost on anyone who asks for mercy between the Passover and the Crucifixion. The Passover was a shadow of things to come. The Crucifixion is the ultimate Passover. Just like with the Israelites in Egypt the only way to obtain God's mercy is to reach out in submission and accept His mercy. It cannot be bought, bartered, or earned. Just accepted. Why is it so hard to accept a gift? Well that is for each person to figure out on their own. If a single Israelite had decided to try and obtain God's mercy any other way than prescribed their fate would have been the same as any of the Egyptians. Likewise if we try to obtain such a gift another way than prescribed our fate will be grim.

Jhn 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

What does the Bible say on the matter of thieves of any kind?

1Cr 6:10   Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 

Why does it have to be that way? As I said before. God is bound by His promises. He can't lie. If He says He will provide a way out He will. Being omniscient has the perk of knowing the best way to do it.

But what has to be recognized is that in God's mercy He did what He knew we could not. He robed Himself in flesh, led a sinless life, and offered Himself up as sacrafice for the sins of the world. As I said before. God is bound by His promises. What did He say in regards to sin?

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. 

So if God in His mercy wanted to keep true to His word someone had to pay the wage. God paid that wage for us. Since He was the only one that could do it. We are limited by our options. Choose salvation and mercy or choose death. If you feel you have led a completely sinless life then go ahead and pursue some other course. But do you want to bet your soul on it? I do not.

God bless


Doth that man love his Lord who would be willing to see Jesus wearing a crown of thorns, while for himself he craves a chaplet of laurel? Shall Jesus ascend to his throne by the cross, and do we expect to be carried there on the shoulders of applauding crowds? Charles H. Spurgeon

jimi

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Re: no knowledge, but only conjecture
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2009, 02:32:17 PM »
Pete asks what do i think happen to Jesus?

Answer: One of his disciples took up the cross and gave his life knowing that Jesus would raise him back from the dead.

Peter

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Re: no knowledge, but only conjecture
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2009, 03:27:49 PM »
Pete asks what do i think happen to Jesus?

Answer: One of his disciples took up the cross and gave his life knowing that Jesus would raise him back from the dead.

Does the Quran teach that disciple switch? Which surah?
I know what the Quran teaches didn't happen to Jesus, but what does the Quran teach did happen to Jesus? What became of Jesus? What was He doing during the crucifixion, and shortly thereafter, and long after?

Peter

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Re: no knowledge, but only conjecture
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2009, 05:58:15 PM »
Please keep this thread on topic.
Let's not abuse the few Muslims - that do muster the courage to login to the forum - with off-topic chat.

Steve

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Re: no knowledge, but only conjecture
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2009, 02:43:41 AM »
Pete asks what do i think happen to Jesus?

Answer: One of his disciples took up the cross and gave his life knowing that Jesus would raise him back from the dead.

Does the Quran teach that disciple switch? Which surah?
I know what the Quran teaches didn't happen to Jesus, but what does the Quran teach did happen to Jesus? What became of Jesus? What was He doing during the crucifixion, and shortly thereafter, and long after?

Far more than conjecture.

Worth reading. Some might find this disturbing. For the Muslim, pray to the God of Abraham.

http://www.bibleplus.org/discoveries/arkintro.htm

Cephyr13

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Re: no knowledge, but only conjecture
« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2009, 11:44:47 AM »
Jimi,

What you see as contradictions are nothing of the sort. They just take some further study and understanding of history and culture. One must also know how the gospel accounts were written, when, and why they appear in the form they appear.

I must assume someone read the gospels to Muhommad, because he was illiterate - and I must assume he was not a very smart man or knowledgeable man either, because he came to a very incorrect conclusion that the gospel accounts were contradictory to one another. All it would have taken is a little bit of critical thinking in order to figure out why the gospels appear the way they do (I say this about Muhommad so that you will understand this may not have been the smartest person to trust).

1. The gospel accounts are not written in chronological order.
2. God wanted four gospel accounts in order to get four peoples' perspectives on the event for more information.
3. The gospel accounts were all written many decades after the actual events transpired, and so the disciples were not listing EVERY detail of EVERY event.
4. Because of 1-3, you're going to find that some disciples remembered different things than other disciples, and so if you are to combine all of the facts and details about each event together, you'll find that you simply get more information, not contradictory information.

Example: Let's say that I and three of my friends go to a church. There is a man there named Jesus and He teaches about all kinds of things. We all are interested, so we listen to things he teaches about. Many years later, we all meet up and we say, "Hey, do you remember the time we went to that church where that guy named Jesus taught? Let's write down the parts we remember about it." So we all start writing down the things we remember from back then. When we start comparing what we all wrote down from memory, we notice something that is quite obvious: We all remember different parts of what Jesus taught about that day. One of us remembers Jesus teaching about redemption. One of us remember Jesus teaching about sin and how it traps us. One of us remembers how Jesus taught about love. And one of us remembers how Jesus taught about forgiveness.

We decide to all place our four different accounts of what we remember into a book. The first account is mine, and the second, third and forth accounts are my friends accounts of what happened. If someone were to assume that we all should remember every detail perfectly and that we wrote everything that happened that day down perfectly, they would think, "Well, these guys are liars, because they all say they heard different teachings that day." But someone who understands that all of us remembered different parts of what happened will put all of our accounts together and say, "Oh, wow. I see that each of them remembered a part of what was taught, and by reading them all, I can learn most of what was taught that day rather than only the things that one of them remembers."

The gospels were written very similarly to the situation I just described. God did it for that reason, because God wanted MORE information given about the events of His life here on earth. And He used the parts of the gospel accounts which match each other perfectly as proof that more than one person saw and confirmed what happened. Muhommad is solely responsible for the Koran, and so we only have his view of things, and no one else confirms that Muhommad's accounts are true and that his interpretation of God's will is true. A person just has to simply assume that what he said is true and accept it as truth. What if he was an agent of the devil and didn't even know it? Now Muslims would be duped into believing what he said and Satan would have them trapped in false belief, doing his bidding. At least with the Bible, we have four different people whom are agreeing fully in their message about what Jesus did while He was here and why He did it and what He was teaching and conveying. They confirm each other by their accounts and they are all in agreement if one understands those gospels and their message.

 

Cephyr13

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Re: no knowledge, but only conjecture
« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2009, 12:12:54 PM »
----You stated----

Yet the four accounts of the crucifixion do not agree:
"And it was the third hour, and they crucified him." Mark 15.25
"...and about the sixth hour..." John 19:14

----End of excerpt----

It's important to understand the two ways they would indicate which hour of the day it was back then. And it is also important to understand how translators mess this up when they translate.

In Mark's account we're told that at the "third hour", they crucified him. Hebrews called 6am the 1st hour. And they called 9am the 3rd hour. However, they also would refer to 6am as the "hour six" of the day. In John's account, he says that Pilot handed him over to be crucified at about the "sixth hour". That is probably translated incorrectly. It should say, "hour six", which is 6am. If you go back and look at Jewish tradition, you should find that early in the morning, this ritual took place of setting a prisoner free. 6am is early in the morning, which lines up with what the gospels say.

So, John is saying that at 6am, he remembers Jesus being handed over by Pilot to be crucified. And then Mark says that three hours later, at the "third hour" (i.e. - 9am), Jesus is crucified.

If Muhommad had understand the Hebrew culture, Greek language, and the ways in which they identified what hour of the day it was, he would've picked up on this. The translators of the King James and many other translations simply don't realize they're translating "sixth hour" backward. It's a cultural thing. You need to understand the language and culture back then and the different ways they told time. If a person doesn't understand that, they will translate that incorrectly. Some translations have it correct:

John 19:14 - Weymouth New Translation
It was the day of Preparation for the Passover, about six o'clock in the morning. Then he said to the Jews, "There is your king!"

I would not trust a "non-Jew's" understanding of the Jewish culture and language useage from that time period. Better to trust the Jews on that, not a non-Jew such as Muhommad.

Cephyr13

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Re: no knowledge, but only conjecture
« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2009, 12:25:35 PM »
----You stated----
Last words on the cross: http://www.rationalchristianity.net/last_words.html
----end of excerpt----

Remember the example I posted of how people remember different things that happened during the same event? This is exactly what I mean. Some of them remember one thing that Jesus said, and some of the writers remember some other things that Jesus said. We know that Jesus said all of those things on the cross from each and every gospel. Not all of them are going to remember everything Jesus said on the cross perfectly. They did not have a pin and paper, writing down everything he said or writing down everything they saw happening. This is all from their memory, and MANY many years had passed since those events. Tell me, do you remember events from your life perfectly from 20 years ago? Can you quote exactly the same words you and others stated back then, or do you figure you probably won't remember EXACTLY what you and others said, but some of it? You should really consider that. Then you will see that the gospel accounts are not in conflict, but rather recounting different parts of the same events from different persons' memories.

----You stated----
Sign on the cross: http://www.rationalchristianity.net/sign_cross.html
----end of excerpt----

Remember what I posted two posts ago when I gave the example of what happens when four people remember an event from a LONG time ago? They may write down similar things, but they will not all remember it perfectly. The point is that every one of the four gospel writers confirmed that the sign above Jesus' head said, "King of the Jews". It doesn't prove anything if they all remember the sign slightly differently. It just confirms that they're human and do not have a perfect memory of an event that happened probably 40 some odd years ago for them.

----You stated----
More contradictions:  http://atheism.about.com/od/gospelcontradictions/p/Crucifixion.htm
----end of excerpt----

These accusations are nothing we haven't seen before. After reading over a many of them, I see that these have been presented for a long time, and I have had to refute them a few times in the past.

What I've found is that all it takes is some careful examination and critical thought or research to show that each one of them is simply a misunderstanding of scripture or culture or what message God is trying to convey.

I, or anyone in here, can probably go down this list and show you how each one of these is simply not being understood correctly, and then they can show how none of them are actual contradictions. If that would please you, then start posting them up, one at a time, and we can all share our knowledge on the subject with you and show you where the atheists got it wrong and how it is not a contradiction.

Have a good day.

resistingrexmundi

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Re: no knowledge, but only conjecture
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2009, 12:31:10 PM »
Quote
2. God wanted four gospel accounts in order to get four peoples' perspectives on the event for more information.
3. The gospel accounts were all written many decades after the actual events transpired, and so the disciples were not listing EVERY detail of EVERY event.

God always works in this manner. Giving us corrobarating evidence so that when we put His words to the test they pass every time. Look into the rest of the NT. All of those books can be reliably dated to the first century and they all testify to the Crucifixion, the Ressurection, the Deity of Jesus, and the triune nature of God. To the second part of the quote above I would love to expound on that by quoting from Craig L. Blomberg, PH.D.

"Acts ends apparently unfinished-Paul is a central figure of the book, and he's under house arrest in Rome. With that the book abruptly halts. What happens to Paul? We don't find out from Acts, probably because the book was written before Paul ws put to death. That means Acts cannot be dated any later than A.D. 62. Having established that, we can then move backward from there. Since Acts is the second of a two-part work, we know the first part-the gospel of Luke incorporates parts of the gospel of Mark, that means Mark is even earlier. If you allow maybe a year for each of those, you end up with Mark written no later than about A.D. 60, maybe even the late 50s. If Jesus was put to death in A.D. 30 or 33, we're talking about a maximum gap of thirty years or so."

So we see that at least two of the four Gospels may have only twenty some odd years between the event and the written record. Now compare this to the biography of Alexander the Great. It was written 300 years later. Yet noone disputes the authenticity of its' record. Another point to make here is that these writings were all written within the lifetime of eyewitnesses who could have written that these things didn't happen. Yet there are no such records. There is no record denying the crucifixion, empty tomb, or teachings on the life of Jesus. Secular records even verify Jesus' miracles.(though they dispute the source of His power they don't dispute the miracle itself)

God bless
Doth that man love his Lord who would be willing to see Jesus wearing a crown of thorns, while for himself he craves a chaplet of laurel? Shall Jesus ascend to his throne by the cross, and do we expect to be carried there on the shoulders of applauding crowds? Charles H. Spurgeon

thespeaker

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Re: no knowledge, but only conjecture
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2009, 07:41:22 PM »
Brothers, i just want to add a simple conclusion to this discussion, in a court of law what evidence is greater than an eye witness?2Peter 1:16. Also the koran always draws refrences from the bible, but the bible stands on it's own truth!

God Bless

resistingrexmundi

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Re: no knowledge, but only conjecture
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2009, 07:57:10 PM »
It is true that an eye witness is a strong support in a case. Even muslims require multiple witnesses to establish fact. Other than the revelation that Muhammad recieved. They seemed fine just accepting his words at face value. Something that really must be considered, for it adds much weight to the Gospel accounts, where are the contemporary refutation? In other words why do we not have first century documents stating that the tomb wasn't empty, or that Jesus was never crucified, or that Jesus never did these miracles? All the contemparies of the authors of the Gospels DO say is that the disciples stole the body, they completely corroborate the crucifixion, and they dispute the power of his miracles, not the miracles themselves. Had they have been able to supply a body they would have. Had they knew what the crucifixion would mean they probably would have not written of it. Had they been able to deny the miracles they would have rather than just attack the origin of the power. These are all things to ponder.

God bless
Doth that man love his Lord who would be willing to see Jesus wearing a crown of thorns, while for himself he craves a chaplet of laurel? Shall Jesus ascend to his throne by the cross, and do we expect to be carried there on the shoulders of applauding crowds? Charles H. Spurgeon

jimi

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Re: no knowledge, but only conjecture
« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2009, 10:21:36 PM »
My original point is the four gospel writers differed because they simply weren't there.  The first three wrote that all the disciples abandoned Jesus, even all those who knew him or were even aquainted with Jesus and only watched from a distance.  Only John writes that some were there, yet John puts the crucifixion not only at a different time but on a completely different day!

These statements are initially intended to raise doubt about the crucifixion but the whole doctrine of sacrifice to pay for sin is rejected by Jesus, Hosea and Jeremiah: "I desire obediance not sacrifice."

resistingrexmundi

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Re: no knowledge, but only conjecture
« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2009, 10:33:44 AM »
Cephyr 13 gave you the reason why the time is reckoned differently by the KJV translators here.

----You stated----

Yet the four accounts of the crucifixion do not agree:
"And it was the third hour, and they crucified him." Mark 15.25
"...and about the sixth hour..." John 19:14

----End of excerpt----

It's important to understand the two ways they would indicate which hour of the day it was back then. And it is also important to understand how translators mess this up when they translate.

In Mark's account we're told that at the "third hour", they crucified him. Hebrews called 6am the 1st hour. And they called 9am the 3rd hour. However, they also would refer to 6am as the "hour six" of the day. In John's account, he says that Pilot handed him over to be crucified at about the "sixth hour". That is probably translated incorrectly. It should say, "hour six", which is 6am. If you go back and look at Jewish tradition, you should find that early in the morning, this ritual took place of setting a prisoner free. 6am is early in the morning, which lines up with what the gospels say.

So, John is saying that at 6am, he remembers Jesus being handed over by Pilot to be crucified. And then Mark says that three hours later, at the "third hour" (i.e. - 9am), Jesus is crucified.

If Muhommad had understand the Hebrew culture, Greek language, and the ways in which they identified what hour of the day it was, he would've picked up on this. The translators of the King James and many other translations simply don't realize they're translating "sixth hour" backward. It's a cultural thing. You need to understand the language and culture back then and the different ways they told time. If a person doesn't understand that, they will translate that incorrectly. Some translations have it correct:

John 19:14 - Weymouth New Translation
It was the day of Preparation for the Passover, about six o'clock in the morning. Then he said to the Jews, "There is your king!"

I would not trust a "non-Jew's" understanding of the Jewish culture and language useage from that time period. Better to trust the Jews on that, not a non-Jew such as Muhommad.

While the scriptures do say that Jesus' disciples abandoned Him on the night of His arrest nowhere does it indicate that they did not return to see the outcome. Given Jesus' foretelling of this event it would only make sense that they would return.

The records indicate that the women observed from afar off. Again there is no indication that none of these women did not walk to the cross later. Given that Jesus' death was imminent and they would be in a hurry to get his body entombed before the beginning of Passover it makes sense that they would approach the cross.

As far as these verses go.

Hsa 6:6   For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

What God desires and what mankind give are two seperate things. God desires for all to be saved. However, God knows that not all people will be.  If you read further in Hosea you see that what was desired was far different from what was given.


Mat 9:13   But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

This was Jesus telling the Pharisees what God wanted of them. Again what God wants and what man gives Him is not always the same. Since God's will is that all should come to repentance He can take a situation like the crucifixion and turn it into victory. Which is exactly what He did.

Besides you are wanting to try and discount 4 narratives that agree on the most important details. That Jesus was crucified and that he rose from the dead. Secular history records the crucifixion.

 The earliest non-Christian reference to the crucifixion is likely from Mara Bar-Serapion, a Syriac writer who refers only to a "wise King" executed by the Jews.[36] Roman historian Tacitus, in his Annals (c. A.D. 116), mentions only in passing that "Christus...suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators..."[37] Similarly, Greek satirist Lucian refers to Jesus only as "the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account."[38]

Additionally, first-century Jewish historian Josephus (in a disputed passage[39]) records:

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

—Josephus , Antiquities of the Jews - XVIII, 3:8-10

Though parts of this passage are believed to be interpolation by later editors what is left undoubtedly when those are removed is that a man named Jesus was crucified under Pilate.

Another possible Jewish reference to the crucifixion ("hanging" cf. Luk 23:39; Gal 3:13) is found in the Babylonian Talmud:

On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, ‘He is going forth to be stoned because he has practised sorcery and enticed Israel to apostacy. Anyone who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.’ But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover!

—Soncino English Translation of the Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 43a



Your assertion that none of the Gospels could be accurate because none of the writers were their is amazing considering you want to take the word of a man who was born 6 hundred years after the fact. Not a single person ever witnessed his so called revelation so to insist the correction came from God relies soley on the witness of the same man.



On Jesus' last words this is recorded.

"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."[Luke 23:34]
"Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."[Luke 23:43]
"Woman, behold, your son!" [John 19:25-27]
"E?li, E?li, la?ma sa?bach?tha?ni?" [Matthew 27:46] [Mark 15:34] (Aramaic for "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?")
"I thirst."[John 19:28]
"It is finished."[John 19:30]
"Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!"[Luke 23:46]

All short utterances easily fit within a three hour period. The gospel writers simply wrote the parts that they remembered or the parts others present at the crucifixion remembered. ALL of them still agree on who was on the cross and the fact that He rose from the dead.

More secular evidence for the Gospel accounts are found when one turns to the darkness described. Thallus, Tertullian, and Phlegon all give accounts of the darkness. Phlegon even records the year it happened. The 202nd Olymiad (33AD).



But more to the point the verse in the koran suggests that people were conjecturing on who was crucified. NOONE had any doubts. Not the Jewish leaders, not the 1st century Christians, and not any true Christian today. However, many opinions have been given by muslims as to who was on the cross and what transpired.

1.Judas had Jesus' face put on him.

2.Some random person was made to look like Jesus.

3.Your own theory of substitution by one of the disciples.

The list still continues. It would seem that the conjecture lies with the muslim community my friend.

God bless
Doth that man love his Lord who would be willing to see Jesus wearing a crown of thorns, while for himself he craves a chaplet of laurel? Shall Jesus ascend to his throne by the cross, and do we expect to be carried there on the shoulders of applauding crowds? Charles H. Spurgeon