Author Topic: The Qu'ran sent as an confirmation not a replacement  (Read 4077 times)

RevSanchez

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The Qu'ran sent as an confirmation not a replacement
« on: September 10, 2009, 04:17:05 PM »
I have many people in my travels that are confessed, not necessarily practicing Muslims.  When the topic of what the purpose of the Qu'ran as it relates to the Bible come up, I am always told by these persons that the Bible we currently have is not reliable and corrupted. That changes have been made that are distinctly different from what the original languages of the first written Bible.  But I rebutted them with this fact that is stipulated in their holy book which most of them don't even read (sounds like a lot of what professed christians do in relation to thier bibles) it, that God or Allah preserves and protects his holy writings.  This includes the bible.  So if God is protecting the Bible from corruption how can it be corrupted?  Furthermore the Qu'ran ,if it is God's Holy book, stipulates that  it has been sent as an Confirmation of all the revelations of God that preceeded it. This includes the entire Bible. Now if the Bible is corrupted, How can the Quran confirm it, unless it too be corrupted?  I also tell them that No where in the Quran that it states that the Bible has ever been corrupted. So where do they get the idea from that it ever was? The Idea came from one of their reknowned theologians back in 1064, after which examining the contradictions between the Bible and the Qur'an  he reported that the Bible must have been corrupted for it to contradict so many of the passages in the Qu'ran, seeing that the Quran is a direct transmission from God to man.  He assumes that the bible was a product of the Christian Church of his day manipulating and twisting the scriptures in contradiction of the Qu'ran.  Muslims in America have been reciting this Theologians idea ever since. Once I have understood this I have challenged every professed muslim who brings the errorneous argument that the Bible has been tampered with, with the response show me in your Qu'ran where it says this and I will believe you. The problem is no where in the  Qu'ran does it say that the Bible is corrupted. In fact it tells muslims that they are to read the bible and believe the bible.  The Quran has been held up as an replacement for a corrupted Bible in the Muslim community in America. However that has never been its purpose. It has been sent to confirm the bible. As i have said before How can you confirm what the Qu'ran has declared as corrupted without the Quran being a corruption itself. Jesus said it this way: Make the Tree good and its fruit good or the tree bad and its fruit bad, for shall know them by their fruits.

thespeaker

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Re: The Qu'ran sent as an confirmation not a replacement
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2009, 06:18:38 PM »
Amen RevSanchez. I too have heard many muslims here in America use that same argument. Especially within the Nation of Islam that Louis Farrakhan heads up. They are notorious for teaching in the african american community that theBible was the "white man's bible".
they don't understand that Africa was invaded by muslims and Islam was forced on the people. True blood bought believers will not buy the lies of a false doctrine. We would rather face death than recant our knowledge of Jesus Christ, for it is most excellent.

God Bless

resistingrexmundi

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Re: The Qu'ran sent as an confirmation not a replacement
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2009, 09:09:36 AM »
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=584.0

Here is a link to a thread that discusses this topic in more detail. Feel free to add any comments.

God bless
Doth that man love his Lord who would be willing to see Jesus wearing a crown of thorns, while for himself he craves a chaplet of laurel? Shall Jesus ascend to his throne by the cross, and do we expect to be carried there on the shoulders of applauding crowds? Charles H. Spurgeon

Peter

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Re: The Qu'ran sent as an confirmation not a replacement
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2009, 08:37:12 AM »
Hi rev, and welcome to the forum!  :)

I have many people in my travels that are confessed, not necessarily practicing Muslims.  When the topic of what the purpose of the Qu'ran as it relates to the Bible come up, I am always told by these persons that the Bible we currently have is not reliable and corrupted. That changes have been made that are distinctly different from what the original languages of the first written Bible.  But I rebutted them with this fact that is stipulated in their holy book which most of them don't even read (sounds like a lot of what professed christians do in relation to thier bibles) it, that God or Allah preserves and protects his holy writings.  This includes the bible.  So if God is protecting the Bible from corruption how can it be corrupted?  Furthermore the Qu'ran ,if it is God's Holy book, stipulates that  it has been sent as an Confirmation of all the revelations of God that preceeded it. This includes the entire Bible. Now if the Bible is corrupted, How can the Quran confirm it, unless it too be corrupted?  I also tell them that No where in the Quran that it states that the Bible has ever been corrupted.

Indeed the opposite is indicated

Sura 5:68 Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.

So where do they get the idea from that it ever was? The Idea came from one of their reknowned theologians back in 1064, after which examining the contradictions between the Bible and the Qur'an  he reported that the Bible must have been corrupted for it to contradict so many of the passages in the Qu'ran, seeing that the Quran is a direct transmission from God to man.  He assumes that the bible was a product of the Christian Church of his day manipulating and twisting the scriptures in contradiction of the Qu'ran.

That is hillarious since we have over 5300 partial or complete manuscripts that were penned prior to the third century. Tens of thousands or more copied by the 11th century. He would have to suggest that someone went back and changed all the copies in all of the several languages yet they came out materially the same.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=97.0

Even more hillarious is the fact that that theologian's view is a tacit admission that their "Allah" had no idea that the bible was corrupt when He recommended - in the 7th century - that Jews and Christians to stand fast by it, and Muslims follow it or they have gone far astray.
It also admits that Allah had no idea it would become corrupt in the future, if their claim is that it became corrupt after the 7th century, otherwise Allah would have never recommended following a corrupt book.

But stranger is that they could imagine that the entire basis and subject of the new covenant - Jesus dying on the cross to save us all from sin - could be corrupted to become THE OPPOSITE of that event that ALL Christians must believe, to be Christians.

Surah 5:47 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

 Muslims in America have been reciting this Theologians idea ever since. Once I have understood this I have challenged every professed muslim who brings the errorneous argument that the Bible has been tampered with, with the response show me in your Qu'ran where it says this and I will believe you. The problem is no where in the  Qu'ran does it say that the Bible is corrupted. In fact it tells muslims that they are to read the bible and believe the bible.

Indeed

Surah 4:136 O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=397.0

The Quran has been held up as an replacement for a corrupted Bible in the Muslim community in America. However that has never been its purpose. It has been sent to confirm the bible. As i have said before How can you confirm what the Qu'ran has declared as corrupted without the Quran being a corruption itself.

Mohammed is the best witness against the Quran

Quran 2:106 None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=116.0

Jesus said it this way: Make the Tree good and its fruit good or the tree bad and its fruit bad, for shall know them by their fruits.

Again, welcome to the forum bro!

RevSanchez

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Re: The Qu'ran sent as an confirmation not a replacement
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2009, 11:18:33 AM »
I thank you all for responding.  It has encoraged me much.  I work in an community that has an reglious diversity in that Roman Catholics, Protestant (pentecostal and baptist particularly) churches dominate the area but by and large are mostly depleted of members.  In the midst of all of this is a Nation of Islam temple. However not all muslims worship there.  There are splinter groups scattered throughout and feeding the idea that what Islam testifies to is true.  There is a difference of something being truly stated and the truth.  Hopefully you would like one to be in concert with the other but it is not always the case.  The Quran state alot of things truly, ei: The virgin birth, God protects his revelations including the bible, That God is the creator of all things.  However speaking the truth is where it lacks detail for example it expresses that the disciples that asisted Jesus in his mission were confessed muslims.  The problem with this is that the terminology of Muslim did not come about till about 600AD.  So it begs the question what is a muslim?  A muslim is a person who has submitted himself to the obedience of God, that is funny, isn't that is what a disciple is.  So a muslim is a misdirected disciple of Christ! because most muslims don't even read the Quran they follow the teaching of Muhammed which always points back to Christ.  You will rarely see the word Christ in the Quran but it is in there.  Other passages use the term messiah which is the same as the word Christ.  I have assembled a number of Quranic passages which cover Christ's birth, ministry and ascension when I am done I plan to publish them as the Injil of the Quran so that Christians can understand what most muslims believe about Christ.  So that the Christian can be informed  so that they can effectively lead these misguided disciples  back to Christ.  For if the first disciples confessed they were muslims then all of them that they have preached and discipled are also muslims under the teaching of Christ.   

Peter

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Re: The Qu'ran sent as an confirmation not a replacement
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2009, 04:32:00 PM »
I thank you all for responding.  It has encoraged me much.  I work in an community that has an reglious diversity in that Roman Catholics, Protestant (pentecostal and baptist particularly) churches dominate the area but by and large are mostly depleted of members.  In the midst of all of this is a Nation of Islam temple. However not all muslims worship there.  There are splinter groups scattered throughout and feeding the idea that what Islam testifies to is true.

Like bus billboards financed by CAIR "Abraham - Jesus - Mohammed" (which is preposterous since the most important fundamental of Islam makes it specifically antichrist.

There is a difference of something being truly stated and the truth.  Hopefully you would like one to be in concert with the other but it is not always the case.  The Quran state alot of things truly, ei: The virgin birth, God protects his revelations including the bible,.....

But in the OP didn't you suggest they believe the reverse of this? (and indeed they must to follow Mohammed)

...... That God is the creator of all things.

While Mohammed did a poor job of plagerizing even the few elements that allude toward scripture, with the help of Jabr and/or his tri-lingual secretary, Christian/X-Christian slaves, relatives, and a defrocked Roman priest, there is little that is true, and that more by happenstance.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=452.0

 However speaking the truth is where it lacks detail for example it expresses that the disciples that asisted Jesus in his mission were confessed muslims.  The problem with this is that the terminology of Muslim did not come about till about 600AD.  So it begs the question what is a muslim?  A muslim is a person who has submitted himself to the obedience of God, that is funny, isn't that is what a disciple is.

Muslims are disciples of Satan as was their false prophet Mohammed.
Mohammedan is an older and far more descriptive term since they follow Mohammed and must reject the Word of God to do so.
The Arabic term "Islam" means submission to God. Christians and Jews are submitted to God. The Mohammedans have only been deceived into believing they are through their false prophet Mohammed. According to the Word of God they are submitted to Satan.

Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

 So a muslim is a misdirected disciple of Christ! because most muslims don't even read the Quran they follow the teaching of Muhammed.....

How do they follow the teaching of Mohammed without reading the Quran, unless you meant to say they follow the teaching of their Imams?

........ which always points back to Christ.

I see it pointing anywhere but to Christ. Pointing directly to Satan

Surah 4.157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

The perfect and exact opposite of Christianity.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=698.0

You will rarely see the word Christ in the Quran but it is in there.  Other passages use the term messiah which is the same as the word Christ.  I have assembled a number of Quranic passages which cover Christ's birth, ministry and ascension when I am done I plan to publish them as the Injil of the Quran so that Christians can understand what most muslims believe about Christ.  So that the Christian can be informed  so that they can effectively lead these misguided disciples  back to Christ.  For if the first disciples confessed they were muslims then all of them that they have preached and discipled are also muslims under the teaching of Christ.    

Surah 9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. 30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

If Christians are your intended audience why not focus on the direct opposite and antichrist nature of Islam? Why not start with the bare-bones fundamentals of Islam rather than going down a proof texted verses trail.

When some Christians credit the Quran with prophecy - for example those that believe that the Mahadi is the same as their "The" "Antichrist" - they are necessarily crediting the Quran as being inspired, at least in part, by God.
I think the similarity should instead be considered as a compelling case for reconsidering one's eschatology if it aligns even in part with what Mohammed taught.

Why muck around with proof texted plagiarized verses, that try to imitate the Word of God, since you suggested your interest was "so that Christians can understand what most muslims believe about Christ"? Seems to me some ecumenical types will want to come away with "See the Muslims believe in Jesus too!". But then so does Satan and more than a few unregenerates. It's all about what we believe about Jesus.

Muslims believe the exact opposite of the Gospel. I think it's high time that Muslims and the church both wake up to that fact.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=148.0


thespeaker

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Re: The Qu'ran sent as an confirmation not a replacement
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2009, 10:22:36 PM »
Amen brother Pete, Islam is definately anti-Christ. We do not serve the same God as some muslims believe. Here where I live it is common for a muslim to say to a christian "we all serve the same god, we just call him by his arabic name, allah", the sad thing is many christians fall for that foolishness. The god of the muslims is satan! I cut through the chase because in the African American Community the nation of islam believes we should work together for a common goal. How can two walk together unless they agree (Amos 3:3), and what fellowship have rightousness with unrightousness (2 Cor 6:14)?
How could blood washed "believers"  even have participated in the million man march?, yet we had many pastors represented there. The truth must be revealed because God's word declares that we should reprove the works of darkness (Ephesians 5:11).