TEXTUAL HISTORY OF THE BIBLE

[Pete]

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/bible_manuscript_errors_.htm

Manuscript Errors? - May, 2006

Hello Brethren;

Liberal scholars of many groups, Islamic scholars and the leaders of many other religious organizations question whether the Bible has been accurately handed down to us. It's been over 50 years since I studied textual criticism so this little synopsis may not be in keeping with the latest science, but it's the best I can do from memory.

Undoubtedly some friendly Greek -- Hebrew scholar or conservative textual critic will bring any additions or corrections to my attention via e-mail.

Some believe the Bible has been corrupted over time. It isn't true and here is how we know it isn't.

The last books of the New Testament were written by about 100 A.D. by the apostle John who was still alive at that time. We have over 5300 partial or complete manuscripts of the New Testament penned prior to fourth century A.D. Though not assembled into what we now know now as the New Testament until 300 A.D., those canonical writings of Jesus' apostles were being read all over the known world. Though it is disputed by some Messianic Jews, the New Testament manuscripts were originally written in Koine` Greek and then copied by early Christians into every language known to the world. Our major manuscripts are in Greek, yes, but we also have important early manuscripts in Latin, Syriac, Aramaic, Hebrew, and several other lesser-known languages. We have one small piece of the Gospel of John, found on the Egyptian island of Elephantine, that is early enough to be a piece of the original.

It is impossible to support any kind of later corrupting when we have those 5300 early manuscripts that prove otherwise. In fact, because of this breadth of early manuscript support, textual scholars have concluded -- that for all practical purposes -- we have the original documents themselves. For a claim of tampering to be seriously considered, one would have to show that scribes from Syria, Babylonia, Galatia, Asia, India, Rome, India, Egypt, Greece, Carthage, Tarshish and Macedonia -- to name a few -- all made the same mistake, at the same time, for the same doctrinal purpose. An utterly ridiculous idea.

We have similar textual support for the authenticity of the Old Testament. Until a few years ago, the earliest documents we had for the Old Testament were later copies of a 70 B.C. Septuigent in Greek and a Massoretic Text in Hebrew that could be positively dated to the ninth century A.D.. However, with manuscript discoveries at Qumran made in the late 1940's (the Isaiah scroll, the book of Daniel, the book of Jubilees, the Temple scrolls, etc. etc.), some of which could be dated to the third century B.C.. Internal evidence within one Daniel scroll dates it at 350 B.C. As a result, we can now state with some certainty that there has been no tampering with the canonical Old Testament manuscripts between 300 B.C. and 900 A.D..

Despite the span of over a thousand years, the canonical manuscripts are virtually identical !!!!

To suggest there was tampering to the Old Testament documents prior to 300 B.C. shows a misunderstanding of Israelite scribal methodology and of their reverence for the Scriptures. First of all, biblical scrolls were written on the inside only to prevent any smudging or smearing that might lead to a misreading of the text. When being copied -- besides many parallel readings -- the copy was compared with the original in every way humanly possible.

The words in each column were counted and then the letters. The first, last, and middle letter and word in each column had to be identical to the original. If the number of words or the number of letters of the copy differed from the original, the copy was destroyed. Then they counted the words and letters in the whole document. They divided the document into quarters and into eighths. The first, last and middle letter in each section had to be the same. The number of words and the number of letters in each section had to be the same.  The middle word and the middle letter in each section had to be the same, and they had to be the same for the whole document. If not, the copy was destroyed. Not corrected, but destroyed!

Since there is absolutely no textual or historic evidence that the Old Testament was ever corrupted, any claim of editing must have been made by those religious authorities who didn't like what the Old Testament taught. There are some who claim late-dating for Old Testament prophets, but that claim is unfounded, as well. The books of Moses, originally penned in the 15th century B.C. contain Egyptian words and idioms that fell out on the usage a few centuries later. When the Hebrews entered Canaan, Canaanite words appeared in Scripture, when in contact with the Assyrians, Assyrian words appeared in Scripture. During the Babylonian captivity, when Daniel and Ezekiel were written, Babylonian words and Babylonian idioms appeared in Scripture. So rest assured, these canonical books were contemporary books, written when the prophets claimed they were, and they remain unchanged to this day.

Ellis Skolfield
http://www.ellisskolfield.net


The bible spans a period from Moses to Jesus over 16 centuries. Over that period mankind changed from desert dwelling nomads, to advanced nations that could follow religious laws from the Sanhedrin and the civil law of kings and emperors. The Qur'an's 71 abrogated suras out of only 114 total, occurring within the brief period of 23 years demonstrates not divine revelation, but the whims of it's author.

The above author at secondexodus.com had a few good ideas, but it is a Catholic site so be warned regarding his misunderstanding of the authority in the church. Even if Cyprian's invention of the doctrine of apostolic succession were true, how would the church explain the millions murdered at the behest of the several Popes? Jesus Christ is still the head of the church.

Much more on how the Gospel was handed down to us here
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2111.0

The preceding does not apply to MODERN BIBLE VERSIONS.
Please read this thread in regard to modern versions:
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=81.0

[Peter]

Video regarding the Dead Sea scrolls:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mJTwFu-QV4

You can scroll to 20 minute mark to save time.

search YouTube dead sea scrolls
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=&search_query=dead+sea+scrolls&aq=f

(Unrelated but) Also artifacts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_artifacts_significant_to_the_Bible
_____________________________

What did Mohammed's "Allah" say about the Scriptures IN THE 7TH CENTURY?

What did he say regarding the Gospel?

Surah 5:47 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

So Christians are instructed to judge by what Allah revealed in the Gospels! In order to support any suggestion of corruption of the Gospel, it would have had to have taken place after the 7th century, when "Allah" was supposed to have inspired that verse - a preposterous notion.

Mohammed used the term "People of the Book" in reference to Christians and Jews.

Surah 5:68 Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.

Thus "Allah" confirms the textual integrity of the Old Testament ("the Law") as well as the Gospel. Otherwise it would be pretty foolish of him to recommend standing "fast" on "all the revelation" that our Lord gave to us through a corrupt book! What instruction did "Allah" give Muslims regarding the Word of God?

Surah 4:136 O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

Even Muslims are supposed to "believe in" "the scripture" that God gave to those before Mohammed. Quite a conundrum!

Was Mohammed's "Allah" simply so confused IN THE 7TH CENTURY that he was unaware that the scriptures had been "corrupted" so many centuries before, as some Muslims claim?
Indeed in order to follow Mohammed's STAND-ALONE 23 year record Muslims must necessarily believe the Scriptures because the EXACT OPPOSITE of what they had been because that is in part what Mohammed's record reveals.
The answer of course is that he was! Because "Allah" and Mohammed were one and the same. That why there is such preposterous self-serving suras, cancellation and abrogation, of a single "prophet's" so-called "revelations" over the period of just 23 years.

Claims of bible corruption, would be going directly against the Quran, let alone an admission that Allah didn't know the bible would be corrupted, before he inspired these verses.

Sura 48.29 ... This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Gospel is: like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.

The rage we find in Muslims in this forum.
Beside that, Mohammed's was to be a book confirming and guarding the bible according to sura 5:48 To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety:...

But given sura 4:157, rather than confirming, Mohammed taught the EXACT OPPOSITE!

4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

...so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

Do you trust God to show you the truth?
Allah instructs to believe in the scripture that came before Mohammed. How could a Muslim obey Allah's commandment to: "Believe in ... the scripture which He sent to those before (him)." if you haven't read those scriptures?

Sura 5:43 But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.

Why indeed.

Surah 2:106 (Asad) Any message which, We annul or consign to oblivion We replace with a better or a similar one. Dost thou not know that God has the power to will anything?

Are we to believe that God was in such a state of confusion that He had to annul and replace inspired verses in the Quran?


What do the Scriptures say on the subject?

1John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

1John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].

[AnnaMuslim]

Manuscript Errors? - May, 2006 Hello Brethren; Liberal scholars of many groups, Islamic scholars and the leaders of many other religious organizations question whether the Bible has been accurately handed down to us. It's been over 50 years since I studied textual criticism so this little synopsis may not be in keeping with the latest science, but it's the best I can do from memory. Undoubtedly some friendly Greek -- Hebrew scholar or conservative textual critic will bring any additions or corrections to my attention via e-mail. Some believe the Bible has been corrupted over time. It isn't true and here is how we know it isn't.

HOW CAN HE CLAIM THAT IT ISNT TRUE?? WHEN THERE IS NO BIBLE ACCORDING TO JESUS< WE HAVE THE COMMENTARY WRITTEN BY SCHOLARS THAT HAVE TRANSLATED COPIES ATTRIBUTED< (NOT CONFIRMED AS THE AUTHORS) AS MATHE MARK JOHN LUKE AND PAUL.
With Regards to the OT, the earliest record is about 800 years after MOSES and who knows how long written after Abraham. AGAIN A COMMENTARY OF THE JEWS TAKEN FROM AN ORAL TRADITION.
THE JEWS HAVE LOST SEVERAL REVELATIONS FROM GOD.

The language is Koine Greek and I had a look at the Greek, all the names are translated therefore the name of GOD obviously does not appear as it would have in Aramaic versions.


The last books of the New Testament were written by about 100 A.D. by the apostle John who was still alive at that time.
IN OTHER WORDS THIS IS JOHNS COMMENTARY OF THE HISTORICAL EVENTS, THIS IS NOT REVELATION,
THE GREEK DOES NOT HAVE FULL STOPS OR COMMAS AND THESE WER OBVIOUSLY INSERTED WHERE THE CHURCH FOREFATHERS (WE KNOW WHO THEY ARE) TOOK IT UPON THEMSELVES TO INSERT PASSAGES.

We have over 5300 partial or complete manuscripts of the New Testament penned prior to fourth century A.D. Though not assembled into what we now know now as the New Testament until 300 A.D., those canonical writings of Jesus' apostles were being read all over the known world. Though it is disputed by some Messianic Jews, the New Testament manuscripts were originally written in Koine` Greek and then copied by early Christians into every language known to the world. Our major manuscripts are in Greek, yes, but we also have important early manuscripts in Latin, Syriac, Aramaic, Hebrew, and several other lesser-known languages. We have one small piece of the Gospel of John, found on the Egyptian island of Elephantine, that is early enough to be a piece of the original.

The Aleppo Codex (c. 920 CE) and Leningrad Codex (c. 1008 CE) are the oldest Hebrew language manuscripts of the Tanakh. The 1947 find at Qumran of the Dead Sea scrolls pushed the manuscript history of the Tanakh back a millennium from the two earliest complete codices (see Tanakh at Qumran). Before this discovery, the earliest extant manuscripts of the Old Testament were in Greek in manuscripts such as Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus. Out of the roughly 800 manuscripts found at Qumran, 220 are from the Tanakh. Every book of the Tanakh is represented except for the Book of Esther; however, most are fragmentary. Notably, there are two scrolls of the Book of Isaiah, one complete (1QIsa), and one around 75% complete (1QIsb). These manuscripts generally date between 150 BCE to 70 CE.

LOOK AT HOW ELLIS SKOLLFIELD'S WRITING DIFFERS FROM EDUCATED SCHOLARS!

[AnnaMuslim]

It is impossible to support any kind of later corrupting when we have those 5300 early manuscripts that prove otherwise. In fact, because of this breadth of early manuscript support, textual scholars have concluded -- that for all practical purposes -- we have the original documents themselves. For a claim of tampering to be seriously considered, one would have to show that scribes from Syria, Babylonia, Galatia, Asia, India, Rome, India, Egypt, Greece, Carthage, Tarshish and Macedonia -- to name a few -- all made the same mistake, at the same time, for the same doctrinal purpose. An utterly ridiculous idea.

It could be that the original bible and the true followers of Jesus we hunted down and killed and those with an agenda to win over the mighty Romans had modified the copies so that thaey were all from the same source of the corruption. same corruption, the same sect that emerged 175 years after Jesus for the same purpose, Market a pagan belief to Pagan powerhouses of the time. Like the american way of life, whatever that means, people all over the globe revere the Amerivan actors and the European football and buy into the same colonial version of life. Sudenly we have a global village, the same fashion, same language and the same problems. Trends are universal and corruption follows trends.

In other words the fashion of the age dictates the beliefs and actions of the age.


Who are the authors, the scholars are devided on the way they are ascribed to Mathew, Mark, John, Luke and Paul and some are Q documents.

This list of authors of the Christian Bible gives the traditional and modern scholarly views. The Bible has 66 different books written by at least 39 authors over a period of 1,500 years.[1]    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authors_of_the_Bible


I would love to copy and paste but It will be sent to SPAM


NOTE THAT NONE OF THE BOOKS WERE WRITTEN OR GIVEN DIRECTLY FROM JESUS< IT IS THE OPINION ACCORDING TO< TRANSLATED FROM ONE DIFFICULT LANGUAGE TO ANOTHER< (THE SUPER POWERS OF THE AGE< GREECE AND ROME< BOTHE PAGAN EMPIRES)

The Scholars and Translators are unknown, could be Jew (hang on they rejected Jesus)must be gentiles (very few could read or write!!
could be romans or who knows???

[Peter]

LOOK AT HOW ELLIS SKOLLFIELD'S WRITING DIFFERS FROM EDUCATED SCHOLARS!

You will notice that Mr. Skolfield specifically addresses a broad group of lay people as "Hello Brethren".
He has a very good way of getting his point across to a broad cross section of people, even though some of his material is considerably complex.
It helps him keep from confusing and leaving folks behind that don't have the intellectual capacity, for example, to discern that there is a difference between the age of the oldest surviving manuscript, and the age of the oldest manuscript.
That's why it's of critical importance to understand Hebrew scribal methodology.

Indeed, as starkly contrasted to the Quran which was maintained in the minds of men. Anyone that has ever played the parlor game where a story is whispered in another person's ear, and then it is passed around the circle, and becomes unrecognizable to the first story teller within the period of an hour. That's why the Quran had to be collected up, and all but a preferred copy burned, on two separate occasions. That's why the Shiites believe at least 1/4 of it is missing.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=96.0

That's why Mohammed, even in his own day, knew what a mess he made of even originating his preposterous record.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=587.0

I don't know if their claim includes the part of the Quran that Aisha said a goat ate or not.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1067.0

Perhaps you can help us out. Where does Mohammed make a claim, as you, that the Gospel has been corrupted?

[Peter]

I would love to copy and paste but It will be sent to SPAM

You could copy and paste blasphemy against God and His record till the cows come home, as there is no end to the amount of folks that blaspheme Jesus Christ, such as yourself. That's why it would be pointless.
That's why punisher, for example, found comfort in copy and pasting Jewish and atheist writings to blaspheme Jesus Christ. Same with Islam. Indeed Muslims even quote famous atheists and communists who spoke well of Mohammed! Just as you look to the Hindus to confirm Mohammed!

It's why you desire to discern the Scriptures through a wikipedia article rather than prayerfully reading them, and putting effort into understanding rather than and even greater effort into MISunderstanding them. You love proven liars like Deedat and other antichrists. That is as it should be because you are filled with the spirit of antichrist.
We are simply letting you demonstrate to your Muslim brethren that are lurking the forum and genuinely seeking the truth, just how that spirit is manifest, when Muslims are compelled to believe, for example, that female prisoners would desire to be raped by their captors and slave masters.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1564.0

1John 5:10  He that BELIEVETH ON THE SON OF GOD hath the witness in himself: HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT GOD HATH MADE HIM A LIAR; because HE BELIEVED NOT THE RECORD that God gave OF HIS SON.

NOTE THAT NONE OF THE BOOKS WERE WRITTEN OR GIVEN DIRECTLY FROM JESUS

That's right. Unlike Mohammed's self-serving and enriching false claims of being inspired by his "Allah" into murder, rape, pillage and plunder, Jesus Christ was proclaimed by WITNESSES that wrote their own accounts of what they WITNESSED.

Not a single person ever heard Allah or Gabriel give Mohammed a "revelation".
A demonstrably false "prophet" with no fulfilled prophecy, that never performed a single miracle.
That is, of course, other than the miracle of convincing even his 21st century followers, to believe that prisoners would desire to be raped by their captors, stealing other people's property and murdering poets and such is the path to Mohammedan paradise.

[AnnaMuslim]

What do the Scriptures say on the subject? 1John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 1John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].

WELL THIS IS ACCORDING TO SOMEONE THAT TRANSLATED THE KOINE GREEK TO LATIN AND TO HEBREW< NO JEWISH SCRIBES HERE TO MAKE A MISTAKE < ONLY CHURCH FATHERS< THE NICEAN COUNCIL AND EVERY SAINT WITH A DOCTRINE. I AM SO GLAD YOU SAY ITS FROM THE BOOK (YOU TRANSLATE IT AS SCRIPTURE).


ALL THAT THESE WORDS CONFIRM IS THAT THE JEWS WILL GO TO HELL, THEY UNLIKE THE MUSLIMS THE JEWS REJECT JESUS IS THE MESSIAH, THEY REJECT HIS TEACHINGS OF LOVE, HOPE, CHARITY, FASTING, FALLING ON YOUR FACE AND PRAYING, FULFILLING THE LAW AS GIVEN TO THE PREVIOUS PROPHETS AND THAT HE WAS ASCENDED INTO HEAVEN AND WILL COME BACK TO EARTH AGAIN TO DECLARE THE TRUTH AND KILL DAJJAAL

WHOM SOEVER REJECT THESE WORDS ARE OBVIOUSLY REJECTING ALLAH AND WHOSOEVER DOES NOT ACCEPT THAT JESUS IS THE MESSIAH REJECTS ALLAH. IF YOU MISTAKENLY BELIEVE THAT THE WORD SON WAS IN THE ORIGINAL SCRIPTURE AND THAT IT MEANS LITERAL SON THEN YOU ARE A LIAR AND A REJECTER OF ALLAH.


The 19th SURA, CALLED MARY, (DOES THE CHristian BOOKS HAVE A CHAPTER DEDICATED TO THE MOTHER OF JESUS?)

Transliteration   Waqaloo ittakhatha alrrahmanu waladan
Abdullah Yusuf Ali   They say: "((Allah)) Most Gracious has begotten a son!"
Mufti Taqi Usmani   They say, .The All-Merciful (Allah) has got a son..

Sahih International: You have done an atrocious thing.
Pickthall: Assuredly ye utter a disastrous thing
Yusuf Ali: Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!


Sahih International: The heavens almost rupture therefrom and the earth splits open and the mountains collapse in devastation
Pickthall: Whereby almost the heavens are torn, and the earth is split asunder and the mountains fall in ruins,
Yusuf Ali: At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin,


Verse 19:91
PICKTHAL: that ye ascribe unto the beneficent a son,
YUSUFALI: that they should invoke a son for (Allah) most gracious.
 
Verse 19:92
PICKTHAL: when it is not meet for (the majesty of) the beneficent that he should choose a son.
YUSUFALI: for it is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) most gracious that he should beget a son.
 
Verse 19:93

PICKTHAL: there is none in the heavens and the earth but cometh unto the beneficent as a slave.
YUSUFALI: not one of the beings in the heavens and the earth but must come to (Allah) most gracious as a servant.
 
Verse 19:94
PICKTHAL: verily he knoweth them and numbereth them with (right) numbering.
YUSUFALI: he does take an account of them (all), and hath numbered them (all) exactly.
 
Verse 19:95
PICKTHAL: and each one of them will come unto him on the day of resurrection, alone.
YUSUFALI: and everyone of them will come to him singly on the day of judgment.

[Peter]

What do the Scriptures say on the subject? 1John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 1John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].

WELL THIS IS ACCORDING TO SOMEONE THAT TRANSLATED THE KOINE GREEK ..........

Any time you wonder how close the KJV is to the Koine Greek you can go to this link and use the upper left drop-down menu. For Strong's definitions too.
Textus Receptus Koine Greek/English interlinear
http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm

(Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT) 1 John 5:10 |  o  <3588> {HE THAT}  pisteuwn  <4100> (5723) {BELIEVES}  eiV  <1519> {ON}  ton  <3588> {THE}  uion  <5207>  tou  <3588> {SON}  qeou  <2316> {OF GOD}  ecei  <2192> (5719) {HAS}  thn  <3588> {THE}  marturian  <3141> {WITNESS}  en  <1722> {IN}  eautw  <1438> {HIMSELF;}  o  <3588> {HE THAT}  mh  <3361>  pisteuwn  <4100> (5723)  tw  <3588> {BELIEVES NOT}  qew  <2316> {GOD}  yeusthn  <5583> {A LIAR}  pepoihken  <4160> (5758) {HAS MADE}  auton  <846> {HIM.}  oti  <3754> {BECAUSE}  ou  <3756>  pepisteuken  <4100> (5758) {HE HAS NOT BELIEVED}  eiV  <1519> {IN}  thn  <3588> {THE}  marturian  <3141> {WITNESS}  hn  <3739> {WHICH}  memarturhken  <3140> (5758)  o  <3588> {HAS WITNESSED}  qeoV  <2316> {GOD}  peri  <4012> {CONCERNING}  tou  <3588>  uiou  <5207>  autou  <846> {HIS SON.}

(Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT) 1 John 2:22  tiV  <5101> {WHO}  estin  <2076> (5748) {IS}  o  <3588> {THE}  yeusthV  <5583> {LIAR}  ei  <1487>  mh  <3361> {BUT}  o  <3588> {HE THAT}  arnoumenoV  <720> (5740) {DENIES}  oti  <3754> {THAT}  ihsouV  <2424>  ouk  <3756> {JESUS}  estin  <2076> (5748) {IS}  o  <3588> {THE}  cristoV  <5547> {CHRIST?}  outoV  <3778> {HE}  estin  <2076> (5748) {IS}  o  <3588> {THE}  anticristoV  <500> {ANTICHRIST}  o  <3588> {WHO}  arnoumenoV  <720> (5740) {DENIES}  ton  <3588> {THE}  patera  <3962> {FATHER}  kai  <2532> {AND}  ton  <3588> {THE}  uion  <5207> {SON.}

(Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT) 1 John 2:23  paV  <3956> {EVERYONE}  o  <3588> {THAT}  arnoumenoV  <720> (5740) {DENIES}  ton  <3588> {THE}  uion  <5207> {SON,}  oude  <3761> {NEITHER}  ton  <3588> {THE}  patera  <3962> {FATHER}  ecei  <2192> (5719) {HAS HE.}

[Peter]

The 19th SURA, CALLED MARY, (DOES THE CHristian BOOKS HAVE A CHAPTER DEDICATED TO THE MOTHER OF JESUS?)

No it doesn't. Not a chapter or any other scriptural suggestion to venerate Mary.
That's how we know it is Roman Catholic Church heresy. Besides the fact that their Marion doctrines leaked into that church steadily over the last 2,000 years, the latest one becoming dogma in 1950.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=16.0
No surprise though that Mohammed borrowed Marion heresy from the Roman Church, just like he borrowed praying 5 times a day, ablution and Ramadan from the Sabians,
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1571.0
and borrowed the rituals of Hajj from the pagan Arabian moon, sun, star worshipers
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1320.0
and the Umrah and Friday worship from the jinn/demon worshipers of Medina of which Mohammed's grandfather was such a devotee he dug the well of Zamzam and dedicated it to idols of the most venerated priest and priestess of the Arabian jinn religion.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1282.0
http://www.petewaldo.com/hajj_umrah.htm#zamzam

[AnnaMuslim]

The bible spans a period from Moses to Jesus over 16 centuries. Over that period mankind changed from desert dwelling nomads, to advanced nations that could follow religious laws from the Sanhedrin and the civil law of kings and emperors. The Qur'an's 71 abrogated suras out of only 114 total, occurring within the brief period of 23 years demonstrates not divine revelation, but the whims of it's author.


THE QURAN IS THE CORRECTION OF THE CORRUPTION THAT HAS TAKEN PLACE. NONE OF THE SCRIPTURES ARE FROM ALLAH< THEY ARE COMMENTARIES OF SCRIPTURE!!!!

THE AUTHORS ARE NOT THE PROPHETS!!!

BRING EVIDENCE OF A PROPHETIC MANUSCRIPT THAT CAN BE ASCRIBED TO A PROPHET

THE DESCIPLES ARE NOT PROPHETS AND PAUL IS CERTAINLY NOT A PROPHET!!

THIS IS PROBABLY THE BEST EXAMPLE OF THE DEVIATION OF ELLIS SKOLLFIELD>

[Peter]

The bible spans a period from Moses to Jesus over 16 centuries. Over that period mankind changed from desert dwelling nomads, to advanced nations that could follow religious laws from the Sanhedrin and the civil law of kings and emperors. The Qur'an�s 71 abrogated suras out of only 114 total, occurring within the brief period of 23 years demonstrates not divine revelation, but the whims of it's author.


THE QURAN IS THE CORRECTION OF THE CORRUPTION THAT HAS TAKEN PLACE. NONE OF THE SCRIPTURES ARE FROM ALLAH< THEY ARE COMMENTARIES OF SCRIPTURE!!!!

Even Mohammed knew what a ridiculous, convoluted and contradictory mess he made of the Quran, in his own day, and by his own admission.

2:106 (Asad) Any message which, We annul or consign to oblivion We replace with a better or a similar one. Dost thou not know that God has the power to will anything?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=116.0

He also knew that he was viewed, and would continue to be viewed for exactly what he was, by those not brainwashed into Islam.

Surah 16:101 When We substitute one revelation for another, and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages), they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.


2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

[AnnaMuslim]

2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

[/b]

The quote above very much sounds like a question from the inquisition dogma and doctrines and a gentle peron like NABI EESA would never ask a question like that!!

I have a few Questions for you on the BIBLE, since that is the topic and not your highly unqualified opinion of ALLAH and Muhammad.

WERE PROPHETS NOT SENT TO EARTH< ONE AFTER ANOTHER? DID SCRIPTURE NOT INCREASE AND INCREASE (CHANGE) AND WHAT WAS ONCE LAWFUL IS NOW NO LONGER?

DO YOU NOT DENY SCRIPTURE IN FAVOUR OF THE DOCTRINE OF ORIGANL SIN AND CRUCIFICTION (DYING FOR YOUR SINS?) THAT IS A COMPLETE DENIAL AND A BLASPHEMY AGAINST ALL OF THE PREVIOUS SCRIPTURES and PROPHETS.

DID ALLAH ONLY CONFINE PREVIOUS REVELATION TO A PARTICULAR NATION? DID ALL NATIONS NOT RECEIVE devine revelation at somepoint in history? OR DO YOU BELIEVE IN EXCLUSIVITY, THE BAI ISRAEL (TWELVE TRIBES) OF ISRAEL WERE FAVORED, does that imply that other Nations are included but not favored?

DID ALLAH SEND MESSENGER/PROPHET AFTER PROPHET TO EARTH? WHAT DOES THAT SIGNIFY?

WHAT LANGUAGE WAS SPOKEN BY THE PROPHETS AND WHAT WAS THE NAMES OF ALLAH, THE PROPHETs AND SCRIPTURE IN THAT LANGUAGE?


THE REASON THE QURAN WAS SENT WAS TO RESTORE THE CORRECT BELIEF IN ALLAH< (GUIDE GOD-FEARING)
TO SHOW THE REQUIRED RESPECT TO THE PROPHETS (BY FOLLOWING THEIR EXAMPLE)
TO IMPLEMENT THE SCRIPTURE AS REVEALED TO THE PROPHETS (OBEYING THE LAWS)

TO GUIDE MANKIND TO THE ONE, THE unique, THE MOST MERCIFUL,THE Most BENEFICENT, THE CREATOR THAT DOES NOT SLUMBER NOR DOES HE SLEEP, NOTHING IN HEAVEN AND EARTH IS LIKE HIM,HE IS THE KING, THE ALL PRAISEWORTHY, HE GIVES LIFE AND GIVES DEATH, AND ALL THINGS ARE IN HIS CONTROL.

Please do not quote QURANIC PASSAGES AS YOU ARE A MUSHRIHK AND INCAPABLE OF UNDERSTANDING THEM
THE first criterion for understanding is belief, you are citing the truth but adding your own vain opinion, unqualified, unsubstantiated, incomplete in most of the time incoherent to a believer

The more you send replies the more ignorant you appear.
The more childlike you look to me
the more in need of teaching
the more in dire need of cleansing your soul
the more in need of removing the beams from your eyes
the more in need...period.

[Peter]

2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

[/b]

The quote above very much sounds like a question from the inquisition dogma and doctrines and a gentle peron like NABI EESA would never ask a question like that!!

I have a few Questions for you on the BIBLE, since that is the topic and not your highly unqualified opinion of ALLAH and Muhammad.

But it was you that brought the ridiculous suggestion that "THE QURAN IS THE CORRECTION OF THE CORRUPTION..."

Isn't that peculiar when Mohammed and his "Allah" claimed IN THE 7TH CENTURY, long after the scriptures had been translated tens of thousands of times, in virtually every popular language in the known world 5:48 To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety:...

Now I'm going to ask you again. http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=97.msg6643#msg6643

Where do Mohammed and his "Allah" make a claim, as you, that the Gospel has been corrupted?

[AnnaMuslim]

Re: CLASSICAL WRITERS SHOW MECCA COULD NOT HAVE BEEN BUILT BEFORE THE 4th CENTURY AD - Reply #33 on: July 09, 2010, 04:03:53 PM - Quote Quote from: AnnaMuslim on July 09, 2010, 02:43:19 PM So ask a question, a valid one about Islam ...... Why do you think God would nullify His 1600 year record 500 years after that record closed, then reveal the EXACT OPPOSITE of that record, through an unrepentant prisoner rapist? http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1482.msg6430#msg6430 Quote from: AnnaMuslim on July 09, 2010, 02:43:19 PM ........ and lets discuss it AND DO Not I say "now bring proof, Scripture requires belief in the unseen, BELIEF IN THE PROPHETS AND IN GOD ALMIGHTY.

PETER
You make dangerous unqualified statements based on your emotions and biased that looks like an indoctrination.
Just because The Prophet Muhammad disagrees with unknown authors of a book (OT) clearly according to but not from GOD (IT READS LIKE A PLAGUERISED VERSION OF BUDHIST BELIEFS) does not mean MUSLIMS in anyway denies original scripture sent by GOD.

The opposite is true, In order to be a muslim you have to accept the TORAH (lost by the Jews) The ZABUR (PSalms deviated by Jews) and the INJEEL (lost and new testament written by the Nicean council.) AND ALL THE SCRIPTURE SENT BY GOD VI A HIS MESSENGERS.

THE QURAN MENTIONS 25 Prophets, by Name
1. The leader of all the Prophets, Sayyidina wa Nabiyyina Muhammad ibn 'Abdillah, Sallallahu 'alayhi wa Sallam.
Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. mentioned 4 times in the Quran

2. Sayyidina Nab? ' ?sa ibn Maryam, 'alayhissalam. Prophet Jesus, son of Mary, peace be upon him. 29 times
3. Sayyidina Nab? Yahya ibn Zakariyya, 'alayhissalam. Prophet John, peace be upon him. 5 times
4. Sayyidina Nab? Zakariyya, 'alayhissalam. Prophet Zakarias, peace be upon him.   7
5. Sayyidina Nab? al-Yasa', 'alayhissalam. Prophet Elisha, peace be upon him.   2
6. Sayyidina Nab? Ilyas, 'alayhissalam.Prophet Elias, peace be upon him.   2
7. Sayyidina Nab? Y?nus, 'alayhissalam. Prophet Jonah, peace be upon him.   4
8. Sayyidina Nab? Dhu'l Kifl, 'alayhissalam. Prophet Ezekiel, peace be upon him.   2
9. Sayyidina Nab? Ayy?b, 'alayhissalam. Prophet Job, peace be upon him.   4
10. Sayyidina Nab? Sulayman ibn Daw?d, 'alayhissalam. Prophet Solomon, peace be upon him.   17
11. Sayyidina Nab? Daw?d, 'alayhissalam. Prophet David, peace be upon him.   16
12. Sayyidina Nab? M?sa ibn 'Imran, 'alayhissalam. Prophet Moses, peace be upon him.   136
13. Sayyidina Nab? Har?n ibn 'Imran, 'alayhissalam. Prophet Aaron, peace be upon him.   20
14. Sayyidina Nab? Shu'ayb, 'alayhissalam. Prophet Shu'ayb, peace be upon him.   11
15. Sayyidina Nab? Y?suf ibn Ya'q?b, 'alayhissalam.Prophet Joseph, peace be upon him.   27
16. Sayyidina Nab? Ya'q?b ibn Ishaq, 'alayhissalam. Prophet Jacob, peace be upon him.   16
17. Sayyidina Nab? Ishaq ibn Ibrah?m, 'alayhissalam. Prophet Issac, peace be upon him.   17
18. Sayyidina Nab? Isma'?l ibn Ibrah?m, 'alayhissalam. Prophet Ishmael, peace be upon him.   12
19. Sayyidina Nab? Ibrah?m ibn Tarikh, 'alayhissalam. Prophet Abraham, peace be upon him.   69
20. Sayyidina Nab? L?t, 'alayhissalam. Prophet Lot, peace be upon him.   27
21. Sayyidina Nab? Salih, 'alayhissalam. Prophet Salih, peace be upon him.   9
22. Sayyidina Nab? H?d, 'alayhissalam. Prophet H?d, peace be upon him.   7
23. Sayyidina Nab? N?h, 'alayhissalam. Prophet Noah, peace be upon him.   43
24. Sayyidina Nab? Idr?s, 'alayhissalam. Prophet Enoch, peace be upon him.   2
25. Sayyidina Nab? ` Adam, 'alayhissalam. Prophet Adam, peace be upon him.   25

The Quran is about the Scripture that came before as an example and the traditions of the Prophets that were deviated by so called experts who refuses to acknowledge the truth and follow the Commands of ALLAH. ALL THE DEVIATIONS DID AWAY WITH OR MODIFIED THE COMANDS OF ALLAH. THE WORSE OF THE DEVIATIONS IS IDOL WORSHIPPING (KUFR) DISBELIEF AND ASCRIBING PARTNERS TO ALLAH. SAYING THAT SOMEONE OR SOMETHING IS ALLAH.

THE PLOY OF SATAN IS TO GET HUMANS TO DISOBEY THE ORDERS OF ALLAH BY ANY MEANS POSSIBLE! IF YOU BELIEVE YOU SAVED THEN OBVIOUSLY ALL THE LAWS OF GOD IS NULLIFIED> IT REQUIRES THAT YOU NULLIFY PREVIOUS SCRIPTURES AND PROPHETS>

MR RAFAT AMARI AND ELLIS SKOLLFIELD ARE very SKILLFUL, They say historians say and he then goes on to draw conclusions, from the pagan historians no less, the very enemies of the Jews and Christians! They are taking their words (empty and devoid of blessing) from deviated books written by men that have been deviated.
The archeological and historical evidence is an empty argument it proves nothing and it is not proof of anything regarding MAKKAH, the evidence that you seek is with Muslims but requires belief in ALLAH (GOD IF you insist) TRUE BELIEF (NOTE I AM NOT SAYING MUSLIM) BELIEVE IN ONE GOD THE GOD OF ALL THE PROPHET AND MANKIND. ND YOU WILL FIND YOUR ANSWERS.
THE PROPHETS SAY THIS THEREFORE THE MUSLIMS ARE THAT, That is not argument, it is conjecture, conclusions like Darwin Theories, Plausible but irrelevant to mankind. It will deviate the hearts of men from the truth.

I see men like this everyday and I can tell now from experience they have wasted countless resources, time and a few lives including their own.

Getting someone to believe that  A GOD DIED or (SON OF GOD?) or (GOD"S SON)(DID HE BECOME THE HOLY SPIRIT?) (CAN A SPIRIT DIE?
WELL HE DIDNT DIE BECAUSE HE LIVED AGAIN, MYRR AND ROSEMARY ARE HARDLY EMBALMING OILS, IT IS USED TO REVIVE SOMEONE< HEALING STUFF. HE didnt die as RESURRECTED< CHEATED DEATH< BUT HANGON SOME DID THAT Happen ALREADY< Someone CAME BACK FROME THE DEAD, The dead was brought back to life? can it happen to anyone and why?< IF YOU BRING SOMEONE ELSE BACK< BRINGING YOURSELF BACK IS HARDLY DIFFICULT,

SO MANY Possibilities with an outcome that strips me of my free will. SOMEONE ELSE DIED FOR ME. CAN A GOD DIE? APPARENTLY IN GREEK AND ROMaN MYTHOLOGY THEY CAN!



MAKKAH AND ARCHEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE: START BY PRESENTING EVIDENCE FOR YOUR OWN BELIEFS: THE ORIGINS AND THE AUTHORS>

[Peter]

sura 5:47 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel. Was his Allah just confused? Didn't Allah know the Gospel was "a deviation from the truth" as you suggest?

Please alow me to explain as you are very confused due to the constant practice of twisting GOD's words!!

The translation is: Judge by what ALLAH has revealed in the Scripture, not what corrupted men are saying, .......

I agree. That's why I support what I say with the Scriptures.

....... if you arefuse to judge by what is revealed then you are kaafir (disbelievers). In other words you want to believe what you want to believe despite having the clear revelation in your hands.

The very same scriptures and revelation that had been copied tens of thousands of times, and were being read all over the known world, when Mohammed's "Allah" recommended following the revelations therein IN THE 7TH CENTURY.

"For a claim of tampering to be seriously considered, one would have to show that scribes from Syria, Babylonia, Galatia, Asia, India, Rome, India, Egypt, Greece, Carthage, Tarshish and Macedonia -- to name a few -- all made the same mistake, at the same time, for the same doctrinal purpose. An utterly ridiculous idea."
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=97.0

Like Hear o' israel your lord God is on, begets not nor is he begotten, we are all (including Nabi EESA) the creation of ALLAH and subject to the laws as revealed throughout the ages from Adam to Muhammad

Now since there has been too many human interventions, lost documents, no original language copies, Greek anbd Roman are not a Scriptural languages in fact they are both enemies of the Bani Israeel (Jahud) and the Nasaara (people of Nazerath) and the People of the BOOK.

So then if we are to believe you, was it Mohammed's "Allah's" ignorance, confusion or stupidity that caused him to make his recommendation in the 7th century to follow the Gospel, that Christians had been following for 500 years by the time he made that recommendation?

Sura 5:47 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

[AnnaMuslim]

DEAR PETER

So then if we are to believe you, was it Mohammed's "Allah's" ignorance, confusion or stupidity that caused him to make his recommendation in the 7th century to follow the Gospel, that Christians had been following for 500 years by the time he made that recommendation? Sura 5:47 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

AGAIN PETER YOU READ THE TRUTH BUT REFUSE TO ACCEPT IT INSTEAD OF TRYING TO UNDERSTAND THE WORDS OF ALLAH YOU MAKE THE SAME UNQAULIFIED< UNJUST, UNFOUNDED CLAIMS AGAINST THE FINAL MESSENGER>

I HAVE IN MY PREVIOUS POST ON THIS THREAD PROVEN THAT WE ACCEPT ALL THE SCRIPTURE OF THE PREVIOUS PROPHETS< NOT THE COMMENTARIES ACCORDING TO UNKNOWN WRITERS!!

THE QURAN AYAATS YOU QUOTING IS THE ANSWER FROM ALLAH TO YOU.
READ IT ALL OF IT CAREFULLY

SURA MAA'IDAH

9. To those who believe and do deeds of righteousness hath Allah promised forgiveness and a great reward.

10. Those who reject faith and deny our signs will be companions of Hell-fire.

11. O ye who believe! Call in remembrance the favour of Allah unto you when certain men formed the design to stretch out their hands against you, but ((Allah)) held back their hands from you: so fear Allah. And on Allah let believers put (all) their trust.

12. Allah did aforetime take a covenant from the Children of Israel, and we appointed twelve captains among them. And Allah said: "I am with you: if ye (but) establish regular prayers, practise regular charity, believe in my apostles, honour and assist them, and loan to Allah a beautiful loan, verily I will wipe out from you your evils, and admit you to gardens with rivers flowing beneath; but if any of you, after this, resisteth faith, he hath truly wandered from the path or rectitude."

13. But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them- barring a few - ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind.

14. From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.
[/b] 

ALL THE SECTS IN CHRISTIANITY (CATHOLIC PROTESTANT KILLING?)

15. O people of the Book! There hath come to you our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary). There hath come to you from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous Book,-

16. Wherewith Allah guideth all who seek His good pleasure to ways of peace and safety, and leadeth them out of darkness, by His will, unto the light,- guideth them to a path that is straight.

17. In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every - one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things."

18. (Both) the Jews and the Christians say: "We are sons of Allah, and his beloved." Say: "Why then doth He punish you for your sins? Nay, ye are but men,- of the men he hath created: He forgiveth whom He pleaseth, and He punisheth whom He pleaseth: and to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between: and unto Him is the final goal (of all)"

44. It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah.s will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah.s book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.

45. We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.

46. And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

47. Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

48. To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

49. And this (He commands): Judge thou between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, but beware of them lest they beguile thee from any of that (teaching) which Allah hath sent down to thee. And if they turn away, be assured that for some of their crime it is Allah.s purpose to punish them. And truly most men are rebellious.

50. Do they then seek after a judgment of (the days of) ignorance? But who, for a people whose faith is assured, can give better judgment than Allah.


FURTHERMORE THE ABOVE VERSES SERVE TO ANSWER YOUR CNCERN BELOW.

The very same scriptures and revelation that had been copied tens of thousands of times, and were being read all over the known world, when Mohammed's "Allah" recommended following the revelations therein IN THE 7TH CENTURY.

"For a claim of tampering to be seriously considered, one would have to show that scribes from Syria, Babylonia, Galatia, Asia, India, Rome, India, Egypt, Greece, Carthage, Tarshish and Macedonia -- to name a few -- all made the same mistake, at the same time, for the same doctrinal purpose. An utterly ridiculous idea."
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=97.

0

TENS OF THOUSANDS, ALL VERIFIED BY ONE SCHOLAR? ALL COMPARED AT THE SAME TIME IN ONE PLACE, NOW YOU ARE BEING PROPOSTEROUS? THOUSANDS OF COPIES AND SRIPTURES AND FOLLOWERS OF NABI EESA WERE KILLED, REMEMBER SAUL USE TO THUNT THEM DOWN AND KILL THEM AND DESTROY WHATEVER THEY MAY HAVE HAD AS A NARRATIVE OR IN WRITING.

READ YOUR HISTORY CAREFULLY, NOT THE ROMANTIC VERSION!!!!
HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT THE IDEA IS RIDICULOUS, HOW OLD ARE THE DOCUMENTS, WHAT WAS THE ORIGINAL THEY COPIED IT FROM? HOW DID THEY GET TO THE DIFFERENT COUNTRIES IN THE FIRST PLACE AND HOW LONG AFTER NABI EESA?

THEY COPIED IT FROM THE SAME SOURCE DOCUMENT< THE ONE THAT CONTAINED THE MISTAKES< IT IS THE SAME COPY< THE SAME AUTHOR MERELY TRANSLATIONS. IS IT SO DIFFICULT TO SEE?

150 YEAR AFTER CHRIST, THEY ARE TRANSLATIONS OF THE SAME CORRUPTION NOT ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS,!THATS HOW.

[Peter]

DEAR PETER

So then if we are to believe you, was it Mohammed's "Allah's" ignorance, confusion or stupidity that caused him to make his recommendation in the 7th century to follow the Gospel, that Christians had been following for 500 years by the time he made that recommendation? Sura 5:47 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

AGAIN PETER YOU READ THE TRUTH BUT REFUSE TO ACCEPT IT INSTEAD OF TRYING TO UNDERSTAND THE WORDS OF ALLAH YOU MAKE THE SAME UNQAULIFIED< UNJUST, UNFOUNDED CLAIMS AGAINST THE FINAL MESSENGER>MESSENGER>

It's your own books that expose the reprobate nature of the false prophet Mohammed and his phony god "Allah", as murdering, prisoner rapist, thieves.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=53.0

I HAVE IN MY PREVIOUS POST ON THIS THREAD PROVEN THAT WE ACCEPT ALL THE SCRIPTURE OF THE PREVIOUS PROPHETS< .......

If you don't believe yourself to be a bold faced liar in this regard then.....

........ NOT THE COMMENTARIES ACCORDING TO UNKNOWN WRITERS!!

Then where is the scripture that came before Mohammed, and the 7th century, that you pretend to accept?
Where do you find it in order to read it?
Where is "the book" that Mohammed's phony god "Allah" ascribed to Jews and Christians in the 7th century?
Where is the Gospel that Mohammed told Christians to judge by what is therein that Mohammed's phony god Allah spoke about in the 7th century?

By citing other verses that tell Muslims to follow the Quran, you are only confirming that the verses regarding the Scriptures are abrogated, "consigned to oblivion", and replaced by the verses that Mohammed made up later that contradict them.
This of course confirms that Mohammed's is a STAND-ALONE 7th century invention.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=116.0

[Peter]

The very same scriptures and revelation that had been copied tens of thousands of times, and were being read all over the known world, when Mohammed's "Allah" recommended following the revelations therein IN THE 7TH CENTURY.

"For a claim of tampering to be seriously considered, one would have to show that scribes from Syria, Babylonia, Galatia, Asia, India, Rome, India, Egypt, Greece, Carthage, Tarshish and Macedonia -- to name a few -- all made the same mistake, at the same time, for the same doctrinal purpose. An utterly ridiculous idea."
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=97.

0

TENS OF THOUSANDS, ALL VERIFIED BY ONE SCHOLAR?

How can you make the case that the Bible was changed AFTER 730 AD, after being copied into virtually every known language, and being read all over the known world?
Suggest that everybody that held copies in all those languages all got together, then went back and erased their copies, to change them to make the whole point of the Gospel, uniformly, THE EXACT OPPOSITE of what it had been, as Mohammed's 7th century blasphemy taught?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=148.0

Why don't you try searching a subject before demonstrating your ignorance?
Like starting with the 5300 that were penned prior to 300 AD referenced in the quote with your false accusation that it was "ALL VERIFIED BY ONE SCHOLAR".

https://school.carm.org/amember/files/demo2/bible/reliable.htm

[Peter]

Where do Mohammed and his "Allah" make a claim, as you, that the Gospel - not men - has been corrupted?

[AnnaMuslim]

The very same scriptures and revelation that had been copied tens of thousands of times, and were being read all over the known world, when Mohammed's "Allah" recommended following the revelations therein IN THE 7TH CENTURY.

"For a claim of tampering to be seriously considered, one would have to show that scribes from Syria, Babylonia, Galatia, Asia, India, Rome, India, Egypt, Greece, Carthage, Tarshish and Macedonia -- to name a few -- all made the same mistake, at the same time, for the same doctrinal purpose. An utterly ridiculous idea."
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=97.0

ASK YOURSELF WHAT DID THE SCRIBES (COPIERS) COPY FROM? COULD IT BE THE SAME DOCUMENT SENT TO THE VARIOUS PARTS OF THE KNOWN WORLD OVER A THREE HUNDRED YEAR PERIOD? THREE HUNDRED YEARS< SAY IT OUT LOUD TO GET THE IDEA
THEN SAY NICEAN COUNCIL OUT LOUD< THEN SAY< A MARKETING TOOL FOR THE ROMANS>

[Peter]

The very same scriptures and revelation that had been copied tens of thousands of times, and were being read all over the known world, when Mohammed's "Allah" recommended following the revelations therein IN THE 7TH CENTURY.

"For a claim of tampering to be seriously considered, one would have to show that scribes from Syria, Babylonia, Galatia, Asia, India, Rome, India, Egypt, Greece, Carthage, Tarshish and Macedonia -- to name a few -- all made the same mistake, at the same time, for the same doctrinal purpose. An utterly ridiculous idea."
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=97.0

ASK YOURSELF WHAT DID THE SCRIBES (COPIERS) COPY FROM? COULD IT BE THE SAME DOCUMENT SENT TO THE VARIOUS PARTS OF THE KNOWN WORLD OVER A THREE HUNDRED YEAR PERIOD? THREE HUNDRED YEARS< SAY IT OUT LOUD TO GET THE IDEA

Yes, that is the whole idea. The scriptures were not only copied, but they were translated into every popular language on earth. All those scriptures confirming each other is how we know the veracity of the message. And we have 5700 partial or complete copies penned prior to 300 AD that we can check our translations against. That's why I keep offering the Greek/English interlinear.

It would require sheer stupidity to believe that THE WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel, somehow became the EXACT OPPOSITE of what it had been, as the 7th century false prophet Mohammed taught.

THEN SAY NICEAN COUNCIL OUT LOUD< THEN SAY< A MARKETING TOOL FOR THE ROMANS>

Sorry, but those early manuscripts were penned before the Nicean council.

Now if you don't answer the prior question that you ignored, everything you put in this forum from now on will go to your spam storage.

[AnnaMuslim]

Where do Mohammed and his "Allah" make a claim, as you, that the Gospel - not men - has been corrupted?

PICK UP THE OLD TESTAMENT LOOK AT THE COVER NOW OPEN THE PAGES AND READ THE FIRST FEW PAGES< WHO PRINTED IT

DOES IT SAY THE TORAH OF MOSES?

PICK UP THE KING JAMES VERSION OF THE NEW TESTAMENT
DOES IT SAY THIS IS THE INJEEL OF JESUS?

PICK UP THE PSALMS
DOES IT SAY THIS IS THE ZABUR OF DAVID?


SHOW ME THE SCRIPTURES FROME THE PROPHETS NOT THE BOOKS ACCORDING TO COPIED FROME< RECOPIED FROM< TRANSLATED BY AND TRANSLATED FROM COPIES OF COPIES THAT ARE CONFIRMED BY YET OTHER COPIES 175 YEARS AFTER THE FACT>

[Peter]

Where do Mohammed and his "Allah" make a claim, as you, that the Gospel - not men - has been corrupted?

PICK UP THE OLD TESTAMENT LOOK AT THE COVER NOW OPEN THE PAGES AND READ THE FIRST FEW PAGES< WHO PRINTED IT

DOES IT SAY THE TORAH OF MOSES?

PICK UP THE KING JAMES VERSION OF THE NEW TESTAMENT
DOES IT SAY THIS IS THE INJEEL OF JESUS?

PICK UP THE PSALMS
DOES IT SAY THIS IS THE ZABUR OF DAVID?


SHOW ME THE SCRIPTURES FROME THE PROPHETS NOT THE BOOKS ACCORDING TO COPIED FROME< RECOPIED FROM< TRANSLATED BY AND TRANSLATED FROM COPIES OF COPIES THAT ARE CONFIRMED BY YET OTHER COPIES 175 YEARS AFTER THE FACT>

Answer the question.

Where do Mohammed and his "Allah" make a claim, as you, that the Gospel - not men - has been corrupted?

[Peter]

http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1259.msg6775#msg6775

[Phill]

I am starting to think that Anna very well may also beleive that the "Gospel of Barnabus" is also a Nicean Council conspiracy and not the 15 century forgery it is. Most Muslims will swear balck and blue that Barnabus actually wrote it. because thats what they are told happened !!!