Islam, Muslim / Christian Forum - Welcome All
General Category => History, Archaeology, and Geography of Mecca & Islamic Faith => Topic started by: Peter on September 13, 2010, 06:00:23 AM
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http://www.petewaldo.com/mecca.htm
Here is a PDF tract on the subject. http://petewaldo.com/m28.pdf (http://petewaldo.com/m28.pdf)
Though I haven't found the time YET, so don't know exactly how they work, I would encourage all forum members to create a free Google website to bring this vital subject to the world. I don't believe there is a greater tool to help Muslims overcome Mohammed's 7th century religion. Some may have an easier time approaching the Gospel only after they have overcome Islam. This is the front line in the war on terror/Islam.
Please see links half-way down the page for many more forum threads on the history of Makkah.
Mecca - Makkah
This page is of vital importance to everyone - whether religious or not - and is of particular importance to Mohammed's followers.
Mecca or Makkah, is the historical and geographical epicenter of Islam. All practicing Muslims on earth prostrate themselves toward the Kaaba in Mecca five times a day. Every Muslim is obliged to travel to Mecca, and perform the Islamic ritual of the Hajj (http://www.petewaldo.com/hajj_umrah.htm) at least once in their lifetime, because it is the "fifth pillar" of Islam. Islamic tradition teaches that the Kaaba, around which Islam revolves, is located in the center of the world and was the first temple on earth. This tradition holds that it was built by Adam (http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&q=kaaba+built+by+adam&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=f42cedd875d403c4) and later rebuilt by Abraham and Ishmael (http://www.petewaldo.com/hagar_ishmael.htm).
Unfortunately there is not a shred of historical or archaeological evidence (http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/archeology.htm), that suggests that Mecca ever existed before the 4th century A.D., when immigrants from Yemen settled the area around Medina and Mecca.
Please do not take our word for this. Yahoo or Google it for yourself or just click on the following links. Try
archaeology of mecca (http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=archaeology+of+mecca&aq=f&aqi=&oq=&fp=79a46ede2c2a175d) - or -
historical and archaeological evidence mecca (http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=historical+and+archaeological+evidence+mecca&aq=&aqi=&aql=&oq=historical+and+archaeological+evidence+mecca&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=5673716d440c1f33) - or -
ancient towns of Arabia (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=ancient+towns+in+Arabia&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=#hl=en&q=ancient+towns+of+Arabia&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=ancient+towns+of+Arabia&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=de02f355aa4c20bd)
Here's a Wikipedia article on Ancient Towns in Saudi Arabia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Towns_in_Saudi_Arabia). The reason Mecca is not on the list is because there is no evidence that suggests that Mecca is an ancient town.
Why not ask your Imam to direct you to some historical evidence? The archaeological record of Arabia is one of the most well preserved on earth because the relatively low rainfall mitigated the degradation of the archaeological evidence. Many ancient towns such as Yemen, Qudar, Dedan, Tiema, Madain Salih, Magan (Oman) and Dilmun are well attested (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1132.msg4610#msg4610) in the historical and archaeological record, and in those records they even attest to the existence of each other. The historical record even notes towns of several centuries before the Christian era, that came and went within a few centuries, but Mecca remains conspicuously absent from those records.
This, even though Mecca was eventually settled on one of the most established trade routes in Arabia, about which historical record abounds, and in spite of the Islamic claims that Mecca had been the center of the religion of Islam for thousands of years before Mohammed. Where do the Qibla of the oldest mosques (http://www.petewaldo.com/oldest_mosque_qibla.htm) point to?
Compare that absence of evidence with Jerusalem, the historical and geographical epicenter of Judaism and Christianity. Try
archaeology of Jerusalem (http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=archaeology+of+jerusalem&aq=f&aqi=g1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=CVrGpBZqDTOPkJ5SEygS-lKnmBAAAAKoEBU_Qo32D&pbx=1&fp=de02f355aa4c20bd) -
historical and archaeological evidence jerusalem (http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=historical+and+archaeological+evidence+jerusalem&aq=f&aqi=m1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=de02f355aa4c20bd) -
temple jerusalem (http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&q=temple+jerusalem&aq=f&aqi=g4g-o1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=ab5cdb1806fef4aa)
One will quickly learn that archaeology increasingly confirms the Bible (http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=archaeology+confirms+bible+as+ancient+historical+record&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=de02f355aa4c20bd) as a reliable source of ancient historical record. One can hardly lift a shovel full of earth anywhere near the Holy Land without having it contain ancient artifacts. Indeed there are over a million artifacts (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/132809) just on display!
Mecca being located 1,000 kilometers - across harsh desert - away from the Holy Land, and the record of Abraham's journey (http://www.petewaldo.com/hajj_umrah.htm#abraham_journey), as detailed in the Bible and confirmed by archaeology (http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&q=archaeology+confirms+abraham+journey&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=f42cedd875d403c4), precludes any notion of Abraham, Hagar or Ishmael (http://www.petewaldo.com/hagar_ishmael.htm) ever having set foot in Mecca. Particularly since they lived almost a thousand years before the first caravan route was ever established along the Red Sea in Arabia. Indeed Abraham’s journey was largely in the opposite direction of Mecca.
If Mecca had been the epicenter of Islam since the time of Adam, it would follow that there would be increasingly more archaeological evidence, the closer one traveled to this focal point of Mohammed's 7th century religion. It also follows that there would be a greater pre-Mohammed historical record for Mecca than any other Arabian city - indeed perhaps than any other city on earth - but no such record exists. Again, compare that with Jerusalem where the closer one gets to this epicenter of Judaism and Christianity, the more abundant artifacts become.
It is important to note that Islamic "tradition" was penned in the 7th and 8th centuries A.D. without reference to any historical record that preceded Mohammed. Historical record consists of that which is recorded by those that lived in or near the times that are accounted, not something that folks decide to sit down and pen thousands of years after the fact. Yet some folks will even cite a false interpretation of scripture (http://www.petewaldo.com/baca_mecca.htm), or a historical misunderstanding or two, by 18th and 19th century authors, as if that substitutes for a 4500 year pre-Mohammed historical and archaeological record of Mecca.
What becomes painfully apparent is that any pre-Mohammed "history" of Islam is little more than 7th and 8th century created fiction. The large volume of contradictions, historical blunders, and mathematical errors such as 66 year generations, contained in Islamic “traditionâ€, confirm that fact. What this in turn reveals is that Islamic rituals are little more than thinly repackaged Arabian moon, sun, star and jinn-demon worship, embellished by books inspired by Hebrew and Arabian fables that Mohammed learned during his early travels, was taught by friends like Jabr, his wives and concubines, as well as influence by Zoroastrianism and the 2nd century occult cult of the Sabians (http://www.petewaldo.com/mohammeds_night_journey.htm). So deeply involved was Mohammed and three of his cousins in the cult of the Sabians, that folks in his own tribe referred to Mohammed as “the Sabianâ€. The Sabians prayed five times a day (http://www.petewaldo.com/mohammeds_night_journey.htm) and practiced ablution. Indeed Mohammed mentions the Sabians right alongside Christians in the Quran.
The historical record suggests that the area around Medina and Mecca was settled around the 4th century A.D. by the Yemeni tribe of Khuzaa'h, joined later by Mohammed’s tribe the Quraish. The Kaaba was built around the early 5th century likely by Asa'd Abu Karb, for Arabian Star Family worship after the black stone made it's way to Mecca, most likely from Yemen. Early reporters recounted that prior to the construction of the Kaabah, a tent occupied the site. The Kaaba eventually housed 360 idols dedicated to Arabian moon, sun, star and demon worship. It is no secret that the black stone that Muslims still prostrate themselves toward, venerate (http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/images/album_a354.jpg), and circumambulate, is the same black stone that pagan Arabians venerated and circumambulated. In other words, the Quraish established the rituals that Mohammed eventually adopted to Islam.
Mohammed's grandfather, Abdel Mutaleb (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1784.0), dug the well of Zamzam to establish a Hajj around Asaf and Naelah, the most venerated priest and priestess of the Arabian jinn-demon religion. Indeed some of Mohammed’s closest followers hated to run back and forth between Al-Safa and Al-Marwah because they knew it was a pagan ritual.
Bukhari, V2, B26 #710 (B2 #128)
“Asem told us that he said to Uns bin Malek, a companion of Mohammed, “You were hating to encompass around the Safa and Marwa.†He answered, “Yes, because it was one of the pagan rites of Jahiliyah until Allah gave a verse that the Safa and Marwa are the rites of Allah. If one makes the Hajj to the Kaabah, he must encompass them. The person has no sin when he encompass them.â€
Muslims had joined the pagans shoulder to shoulder in circumambulation of the Kaaba in their ritual of the Hajj, right up until the year before Mohammed's last Hajj when the pagans were finally expelled from their own ritual.
Bukhari V2, B26, #689 (V1, B8, No 365): Narrated Abu Huraira:
“In the year prior to the last Hajj of the Prophet when Allahs Apostle made Abu Bakr the leader of the pilgrims, the latter (Abu Bakr) sent me in the company of a group of people to make a public announcement: 'No pagan is allowed to perform Hajj after this year, and no naked person is allowed to perform Tawaf of the Kaba.'â€
No Mecca before the 4th century - no Kaaba before the 5th century - means no foundation whatsoever underpinning Islamic "tradition". That leaves Islam as Mohammed’s stand-alone 7th century invention. Since Abraham, Hagar and Ishmael lived over 1,000 km from where Mecca was eventually built, nearly 1,000 years before the first caravan ever traveled along the Red Sea in Arabia, the truth is apparent.
There are historical references to other temples, and even to a great temple "highly revered by all the Arabsâ€, but Mohammed's own tribe, the Quraish went on Hajj, or pilgrimage, twice a year long after the Kaaba in Mecca was built, indicating that the Kaaba in Mecca was a lesser temple than others.
Quran 106:1 For the covenants by the Quraish, 2 Their covenants journeys by winter and summer,- 3 Let them adore the Lord of this House,
To our Muslim friends, that are still capable of critical thought, please research the history of Mecca for yourself. The preceding material is derived largely from the Religion Research Institute that you can visit online, and the book “Islam: in the Light of Historyâ€, penned by Dr. Rafat Amari after his extensive 20 year full-time study of the history of Arabia, Mecca and Islam.
An alternate title of this thread should be - Twilight of Islam
THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1079.0)
CLASSICAL WRITERS SHOW MECCA COULD NOT HAVE BEEN BUILT BEFORE THE 4th CENTURY AD (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1138.0)
ARCHAEOLOGY OF ARABIA SHOWS THAT MECCA DID NOT EXIST BEFORE CHRISTIANITY (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1132.0)
THE ROLE OF THE TEMPLE AT MECCA IN THE JINN RELIGION OF ARABIA (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1267.0)
THE BIBLE AND THE ANCIENT MECCA CLAIM (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1181.0)
WHO WAS ALLAH IN THE WORSHIP OF ARABIA? (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1240.0)
THOSE WHO REWROTE HISTORY FOR MUSLIMS (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1176.0)
IS MOHAMMED A DESCENDENT OF ISHMAEL? (Ismail, Muhammad) (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1216.0)
DID HAGAR FLEE TO MECCA? (Hajar, Makkah) (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1167.0)
THE KAABAH AS TEMPLE OF THE ARABIAN STAR WORSHIP (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1140.0)
Ishmael, Hagar, Abraham, Paran & Mecca (Ismail, Hajar, Ibrahim) (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1483.0)
"...a famous temple, whose superior sanctity was revered by all the Arabians..." (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1121.0)
Valley of Baca - Mecca? (Makkah) (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1178.0)
WHERE DO THE QIBLA OF THE OLDEST MOSQUES POINT TO? (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1272.0)
THE SMALL HAJJ CALLED UMRA (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1209.0)
The Well of Zamzam and Hagar (Hajar) (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1168.0)
http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/index.htm
* The Classical Writers and Mecca (http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/classical.htm) - By Dr. Rafat Amari
* Archaeology and Mecca (http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/archeology.htm) - By Dr. Rafat Amari
* The Bible and Mecca (http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/mecca_bible.htm)- By Dr. Rafat Amari
* The Kaabah and the Arabian Star Worship (http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/star.htm) - By Dr. Rafat Amari
* The Role of the Temple at Mecca in the Jinn Religion and in the Arabian Family Star Religion (http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/roleoftemple.htm) - By Dr. Rafat Amari
* The True Story of the Construction of the Temple of Mecca (http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/construction.htm) - By Dr. Rafat Amari
Considering the absence of historical and archaeological record of Mecca ever having existed before the 4th century A.D., could this be what the Saudi's are trying to hide? While the Saudi's (yes that's whose money will finance (http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=saudi+financing+islamic+centers+mosques+U.S.&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=saudi+financing+islamic+centers+mosques+U.S.&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=de02f355aa4c20bd) the 9-11 ground zero mosque through various conduits) want to build a grand mosque in New York city (there are already over a hundred of them), the fact is that if 99.4% of U.S. citizens (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html) (non-Muslims) even set foot in Mecca, Saudi Arabia, we would be subject to arrest (http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=non-muslim+arrested+in+mecca&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=de02f355aa4c20bd).
(http://www.petewaldo.com/08ff47f0.jpg)
Ahmed Deedat has trained Muslims to knee-jerk quote 18th century English author Edward Gibbon's misunderstanding of Ptolemy regarding a famous temple (http://www.petewaldo.com/oldest_mosque_qibla.htm) in Arabia. Besides his focus being the Roman Empire, Gibbon even (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1121.0) characterized himself as "I am ignorant and carelessness", in regard to "the blind mythology of the Barbarians" of Arabia.
Another example trotted out is "In the Encyclopedia of Islam, Wensinck identifies Mecca with a place called Macoraba (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1081.msg7337#msg7337) mentioned by Ptolemy. His text is believed to date from the second century AD." As if somehow an early 20th century Islamic author's misunderstanding (or intentional misrepresentation) of Ptolemy's writings, is supposed to substitute for 4500 years of non-existent pre-Mohammed historical and archaeological record of Mecca! Even if Macoraba had been Mecca, it would only reinforce the absence of a pre-Christian era history of Mecca, because Macoraba was a relatively new town of interior Arabia when Ptolemy wrote about it.
There are references to lots of other temples, and even to a great temple "highly revered by all the Arabsâ€, that was likely the one of the Bythemaneas, located near Ilat in the Aqaba gulf area. (forum thread (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1081.msg4276#msg4276))
Indeed the Qibla (direction to point when praying) of three of the oldest Mosques do not point to Mecca but rather to an area about 500 miles to the north of Mecca. Please visit the "Oldest Mosque Qibla" page for more on that subject.
The Quraish pilgrimages were to the north, and one during the summer was to the city of Taif where there was also a temple called Kaabah of Ellat, or Kaabah of the Sun.
Quoting Dr. Amari "This Kaabah was more significant and much older than the Kaabah of Mecca. All Arabs, including the tribe of Quraish from which Mohammed came, venerated this Kaabah." (forum thread (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1084.0))
"The stone was considered the main shrine, or sacred element, in each temple, called Kaabah in Arabic. This revered stone, which represented the moon, was considered to be divine. The worship of the Arabian Star Family with Allah, who was the moon as its head, revolved around the black stone. Ellat, Allah’s wife, was the sun, and al-'Uzza and Manat, his daughters, represented two planets. (below (http://www.petewaldo.com/mecca.htm#star_worship))
There was no shortage of Kaabas in Arabia each with it's own black stone. Arabian Star Family temple design left its indelible fingerprints on those temples as well as on the Kaaba in Mecca, demonstrating that Abraham could not have built it even if the city of Mecca had existed before the 4th century AD."
Indeed no Muslim will deny that there may have been as many as 360 stone idols located in and around the Kaaba in Mohammed's day. Mohammed took issue with the polytheists, and finally gained the power to expell all of the stone idols, which he did ...... except for the black rock that Muslims still bow toward five times a day. In Islam, each Muslim is required to travel to Mecca to circumambulate the stone, just as the pagans did before Mohammed.
Here are a few excerpts from a Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Stone) that may explain the source of the black stone.
"The reverence of the Black Stone evidently preceded the rise of Islam. The Semitic cultures of the Middle East had a tradition of using unusual stones to mark places of worship, a phenomenon which is reflected in the Hebrew Bible as well as the Qur'an.[8]
Grunebaum, in Classical Islam, says that the Kaaba was a place of pilgrimage even in pre-Islamic times, and was probably the only sanctuary built of stone, but that there are other sources which indicate there were other "Kaaba" structures in other parts of Arabia. A "red stone" was the deity of the south Arabian city of Ghaiman, and there was a "white stone" in the Ka'ba of al-Abalat (near the city of Tabala, south of Mecca). He points out that the experience of divinity of that time period was often associated with stone fetishes, mountains, special rock formations, or "trees of strange growth."[11]
It has been suggested that the Black Stone may be a glass fragment from the impact of a fragmented meteorite some 6,000 years ago at Wabar, a site in the Rub' al Khali desert some 1,100 km east of Mecca. The craters at Wabar are notable for the presence of blocks of silica glass, fused by the heat of the impact and impregnated by beads of nickel-iron alloy from the meteorite (most of which was destroyed in the impact). Some of the glass blocks are made of shiny black glass with a white or yellow interior and gas-filled hollows, which allow them to float on water. Although scientists did not become aware of the Wabar craters until 1932, they were located near a caravan route from Oman and were very likely known to the inhabitants of the desert. The wider area was certainly well-known; in ancient Arabic poetry, Wabar or Ubar (also known as "Iram of the Pillars") was the site of a fabulous city that was destroyed by fire from the heavens because of the wickedness of its king. If the estimated age of the crater is accurate, it would have been well within the period of human habitation in Arabia and the impact itself may have been witnessed.[13]."
Since Yemen is a neighbor of Oman, this explanation would be consistent with Dr. Amari's suggestion that the black stone made it's way to Mecca in the early 5th century by way of the Yemeni immigrants that settled Mecca in the 4th century.
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Encouraging people to start websites with uncorroborated works is tantamount to asking them to tell lies on your behalf, please check the source of any material you posting, If it comes from irreligious pagans it is obviously suspect information and to be treated as unsubstantiated text, just because they wrote it in the 2nd century does not magically make it accurate or factual!! if thousands of greek scholars believe one thing it means that the source is the same not the hypothesis.
Firstly as a Muslim it is a preposterous notion to believe an unqualified, unsubstantiated, undocumented scholar that never excavated Makkah over the words of a Prophet of ALLAH that has the title Al- ameen (the truthful). Geography and history is written by the Victor, so the Greeks and Romans (pagan worshippers wrote your early Biblical history) It was merely copied by Jews and Christians from the Greek and Roman Translations.
Secondly there is not a shred of evidence in the writings of any of the websites, nor the document of Rafat Amari nor does Peter present any solid evidence for their unfounded claims, they merely take the words inaccurate Pagan historians and form conjecture and opinions based on scant geographically inaccurate and highly misinterpreted Greek and Roman translations of the ideas of pagan writers who obviously never visited the area.
Ask them if any of the research include ACTUAL ARAB SCHOLARS FROM ANY MUSEUM IN MAKKAH OR ARCHEOLOGY OF MAKKAH ITSELF. It does not. Instead you will hear words like 'suggests", and "apparent evidence" notice that the artifacts referred to may or may not correspond to the story of Abraham and Ishmaels , location, checking the accuracies of the Biblical stories in view of the fact that we lack crucial evidence from the time period, unless you want to believe the thousands of differing opinions of the Archeologists. Peter argues with circumstantial evidence and every scholar you asks differs in opinion, only Biblical scholars come to the same OPINIONS based on the Pagan Roman and Greek suggestions for the History of the area. Think about this idea that the persecutors of Jesus would write accurate accounts for your consumption including Paul himself.
Historical evidence is not required for belief in ALLAH, in other words looking for evidence is tantamount to disbelief as it requires a great amount of conjecture on the part of the historian and archeologists. Like the Story of Nabi EESA (no evidence exists except in the biblical and Islamic texts) but we believe in his miracles, (2nd century myths notwithstanding) and his work and his ascension and return. SHOW ME PHYSICAL EVIDENCE FOR THIS CLAIM other than the writing of unknown scribes and translators.
This a weak attempt at casting doubts amongst weak Muslims, Makkah is a protected sanctuary of ALLAH, it is not to be compared to any other city in the world, it has no comparison and when a non muslim asks for Evidence for the existence of MAKKAH direct him towards the QURAN AND THE SUNNAH OF THE GHATAMMAN NABIYEEN< THE MERCY OF ALL MANKIND, PROPHET MUHAMMAD MUSTPHA SALLALAAHI ALAYHIWASSALAAM. If he rejects it then he is disbeliever and mushrihk, a person that ascribes partners to ALLAH.
EVIDENCE IS NOT REQUIRED FOR YOUR WHIMSICAL IDEAS, EVIDENCE FOR MAKKAH IS THE KA"ABA, EVIDENCE FOR THE MIRAAJ IS THE 5 times daily prayer. evidence for the Prophets is in the Fasting and Hajj. evidence for Nabis EESA is in the Love the muslims have for each other.
I am Muslim because Islam has put the words of all the Prophets into practice while all the deviations from GOD merely pay lip service and do their own thing with no inclination to the deeds of the Prophets.
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Encouraging people to start websites with uncorroborated works is tantamount to asking them to tell lies on your behalf, please check the source of any material you posting, If it comes from irreligious pagans it is obviously suspect information and to be treated as unsubstantiated text, just because they wrote it in the 2nd century does not magically make it accurate or factual!! if thousands of greek scholars believe one thing it means that the source is the same not the hypothesis.
Firstly as a Muslim it is a preposterous notion to believe an unqualified, unsubstantiated, undocumented scholar that never excavated Makkah over the words of a Prophet of ALLAH that has the title Al- ameen (the truthful).
But as a Christian we understand that you take the words of Mohammed over all the words of all of the prophets of God's 1600 year record. As you freely admit you reject God's laws for Mohammed's 7th century laws. Even your holy day is on Friday.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1955.0
Geography and history is written by the Victor, so the Greeks and Romans (pagan worshippers wrote your early Biblical history) It was merely copied by Jews and Christians from the Greek and Roman Translations.
Secondly there is not a shred of evidence in the writings of any of the websites, nor the document of Rafat Amari nor does Peter present any solid evidence for their unfounded claims, they merely take the words inaccurate Pagan historians and form conjecture and opinions based on scant geographically inaccurate and highly misinterpreted Greek and Roman translations of the ideas of pagan writers who obviously never visited the area.
Resorting to lies and slandering an author won't magically create thousands of years of history for Mecca where none exists. If you had actually real Dr. Amari's materials you would have seen that he relies heavily on ISLAMIC sources - on ISLAMIC WRITERS. Like this bibliography for example.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1784.msg7347#msg7347
But it isn't about Dr. Amari. Even the generic Wikipedia article on ancient towns in Saudi Arabia, that you failed to account, cannot include Mecca, because Mecca simply isn't an ancient town.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1912.msg8386#msg8386
Running away from the discussion there and posting lies here won't make you any less wrong - it won't magically create a history for Mecca - from nothing.
Ask them if any of the research include ACTUAL ARAB SCHOLARS FROM ANY MUSEUM IN MAKKAH OR ARCHEOLOGY OF MAKKAH ITSELF. It does not.
That's because it doesn't exist in Mecca either because ..... MECCA DIDN'T EXIST BEFORE AROUND THE 4TH CENTURY AD.
Early when you came to this forum you promised to bring evidence to bear, but as yet you haven't. That's because you yourself have found that no such evidence exists. Please bring your evidence from "MUSEUM IN MAKKAH OR ARCHEOLOGY OF MAKKAH ITSELF" NOW.
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Instead you will hear words like 'suggests", and "apparent evidence" .......
It's almost impossible not to use qualifiers like that when speaking about Islam, because the Islamic writings is so varied and contradictory in nature. It's often hard to decide what really did happen from the many accounts.
....... notice that the artifacts referred to may or may not correspond to the story of Abraham and Ishmaels , location, checking the accuracies of the Biblical stories in view of the fact that we lack crucial evidence from the time period, ........
More lies. We have mountains of evidence from the time period that positively locate THE Holy Land in ............. gee .............. THE Holy Land - NOT 1200 kilometers away in a desperate southwestern Arabian desert.
That evidence is further confirmed and corroborated by the archaeological evidence from Egypt as well.
Evermore confirming scripture. (http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&q=archaeological+evidence+israelites&aq=&aqi=&aql=f&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=8bc48c66f0d3c525)
......... unless you want to believe the thousands of differing opinions of the Archeologists. Peter argues with circumstantial evidence and every scholar you asks differs in opinion, only Biblical scholars come to the same OPINIONS based on the Pagan Roman and Greek suggestions for the History of the area.
I post EVIDENCE. Please bring us your evidence of Mecca from before the Christian era. Until then DO NOT comment on any history threads outside of that active discussion we have going in that thread, beginning at this link.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2057.msg8762#msg8762
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Think about this idea that the persecutors of Jesus would write accurate accounts for your consumption including Paul himself.
See how you failed to mention that Paul repented and became a follower of Jesus Christ, but instead left him as a persecutor? That omission is because you follow the father of lies through his false prophet Mohammed.
Historical evidence is not required for belief in ALLAH, ......
That's right, only belief in your false prophet Mohammed and his self-serving alter-ego "Allah".
....... in other words looking for evidence is tantamount to disbelief as it requires a great amount of conjecture on the part of the historian and archeologists. Like the Story of Nabi EESA (no evidence exists except in the biblical and Islamic texts) but we believe in his miracles, (2nd century myths notwithstanding) and his work and his ascension and return. SHOW ME PHYSICAL EVIDENCE FOR THIS CLAIM other than the writing of unknown scribes and translators.
The account is contained and thoroughly documented in the Gospel - that you must reject to follow Mohammed - since he WAS and taught the EXACT OPPOSITE.
Indeed particularly the most important thing that you reject - the blood that Jesus Christ shed for you.
This a weak attempt at casting doubts amongst weak Muslims, .........
No it's an opportunity to bring Muslims the Gospel while at the same time showing them what a pile of poppycock Mohammed's 7th century repackaged Arabian paganism is. And I want to again thank you for helping us bring this message to those of your brethren who are genuinely seeking the truth.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1784.msg7346#msg7346
........ Makkah is a protected sanctuary of ALLAH, .......
Mecca was built as a center for pagan Arabian moon, sun star and jinn-demon worship, which rituals Muslims still engage in today. Even bowing toward the very same Quraish black stone idol, 5 times a day.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2039.0
....... it is not to be compared to any other city in the world,.......
Can't hardly be, since most other cities in the world HAVE HISTORIES!
That includes many ARABIAN cities - through ARABIAN historical record and archaeology - BUT NOT MECCA.
...... it has no comparison and when a non muslim asks for Evidence for the existence of MAKKAH direct him towards the QURAN AND THE SUNNAH OF THE GHATAMMAN NABIYEEN< .......
What you call "evidence" is nothing more than laboring under the preposterous delusion that somehow thousands of years of history, can be all written by a bunch of ignorant southwest Arabian desert dwellers, thousands of years after the era they were pretending to recount, transpired. Written without a single historical reference. That's what makes it NECESSARILY a work of PURE FICTION.
But unfortunately for Mohammed's devotees, history isn't something that is created from thin air, thousands of years after the history it pretends to report - in the 7th and 8th centuries AD.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=56.0
......... THE MERCY OF ALL MANKIND, PROPHET MUHAMMAD MUSTPHA SALLALAAHI ALAYHIWASSALAAM. If he rejects it then he is disbeliever and mushrihk, a person that ascribes partners to ALLAH.
That's what makes you a Mohammedan. A follower of Mohammed and his alter-ego "Allah", and rejecter of the 1600 year record of YHWH to mankind that his people have followed through 2 covenants for 3500 years.
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EVIDENCE IS NOT REQUIRED FOR YOUR WHIMSICAL IDEAS, EVIDENCE FOR MAKKAH IS THE KA"ABA, .......
EXACTLY. "Evidence" for against Makkah is the Kaaba that was built by the 5th century pagan Arabian immigrants from Yemen for Arabian star family worship.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1133.0
....... EVIDENCE FOR THE MIRAAJ IS THE 5 times daily prayer.
Unfortunately that is not "evidence". Sadly it's just another pagan ritual Mohammed picked up. This one from the second century occult cult of the Sabians. A ritual that Mohammed even preposterously claimed he picked up while riding around on a flying donkey-mule one night. Many ignorant desert dwelling illiterates in the 7th century had the good sense to leave Islam after hearing Mohammed tell his tall tale. What's your excuse in this 21st century information age?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1253.0
Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
evidence for the Prophets is in the Fasting ..........
Yet Muslims spend more money on food during the month that they "fast" than at any other time of the year!
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1269.0
........ and Hajj. .......
Indeed the most conspicuous difficulty with Islam. Nothing more than repackaged moon, sun, star and jinn-demon worship that Mohammed adopted and then adapted to his STAND-ALONE 7th century religion.
http://www.petewaldo.com/hajj_umrah.htm
....... evidence for Nabis EESA is in the Love the muslims have for each other.
So that must be why Sunnis and Shiites target for murder each others innocent men, women and children!
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=54.0
I am Muslim because Islam has put the words of all the Prophets into practice while all the deviations from GOD merely pay lip service and do their own thing with no inclination to the deeds of the Prophets.
You are a Mohammedan because you have been brainwashed into being so and thereby filled with the spirit of antichrist, that causes you to continue to reject YHWH, IN SPITE OF THE EVIDENCE AGAINST Mohammed and his pop-7th century religious invention, and repackaged Arabian pagan rituals.
Continue our discussion of your assertions at the following link.
Do not reply to this thread until we have exhausted that thread. I do not want our mutual time wasted with 2 conversations regarding the same subject going on simultaneously.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2057.45
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Your answers as usual has nothing to do with the topic and is baseless slander and conjecture. Your version of pagan worship is obviously as deviated as the New testament scriptures, written from a pagan disbelieving point of view, no amount of false accusations against me and what I believe changes the truth that you are unwilling to accept. I believe Muhammad because his account of the True religion of all the prophets is a much more acceptable, dignified and believable account with more benefit to the whole of humanity than The misrepresentations of the Pagan Scholars of the Book (an assemble bibliography by men who had no inclination towards the obedience of THE GOD)
I am a Muslim as The all Prophets like Abraham, Isaac, Ishmael, Jacob, aaron, Moses, David solomon and EESA (Iseos in greek) May allah bestow peace and blessings on them all, NOT A MOHAMMADAN a name that is uttered out of ignorance Like the derogatory term given to followers of the NT Christians. and the Pentateuch Jews (nicknames that became religions)
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Your answers as usual has nothing to do with the topic and is baseless slander and conjecture.
As always false accusation with an absence of specifics.
Your version of pagan worship is obviously as deviated as the New testament scriptures, written from a pagan disbelieving point of view, .......
You don't have to keep repeating that you reject the Gospel. We well understand that.
........ no amount of false accusations against me .......
Specifics please (after you attend to your thread regarding the Holy Land of the Scriptures not being Jerusalem but Mecca).
........ and what I believe changes the truth that you are unwilling to accept.
Don't be silly. The whole world rejects your unhistorical prophets were really from Mecca not Jerusalem nonsense.
I believe Muhammad because his account of the True religion of all the prophets is a much more acceptable, dignified and believable account ......
Like Mohammed's UNWITNESSED ride on his mythical flying donkey-mule for example.
........ with more benefit to the whole of humanity .......
Most everywhere we find murder, mayhem and misery around the world, we find the hand of Islam.
......... than The misrepresentations of the Pagan Scholars of the Book (an assemble bibliography by men who had no inclination towards the obedience of THE GOD)
I am a Muslim as The all Prophets like Abraham, Isaac, Ishmael, Jacob, aaron, Moses, David solomon and EESA .......
You are a liar just as your false prophet was. But that isn't a matter of my opinion.
1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
........ (Iseos in greek) May allah bestow peace and blessings on them all, NOT A MOHAMMADAN a name that is uttered out of ignorance Like the derogatory term given to followers of the NT Christians. and the Pentateuch Jews (nicknames that became religions)
No that name is uttered out of being educated enough to understand that Mohammed WAS and taught the EXACT OPPOSITE of the Gospel. Thus Mohammed's is a STAND-ALONE 7th century religion. You follow MOHAMMED, and by your own admission Mohammed's "laws". Even your holy day is Friday.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1955.0
That's what makes you a MOHAMMEDan.
I follow Jesus CHRIST through the Gospel. That's what makes me a CHRISTian.
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You are to post at the following link before anywhere else. No more running away from your own subject.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2057.msg8762#msg8762
Which was a ridiculous way of trying to abandon your failure to support your preposterous claims in the prior thread.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1912.msg8572#msg8572
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YOU a very skillfull liar Peter, your references and accusations are nothing but misguided rhetoric, specifically on the Makkah and ka'ba issue you have nothing but conjecture, you have not excavated Makkah, I am not looking for evidence you are, you making a baseless claim, I am not under any obligation to prove you wrong you are like the conjecturers before you making a flase claim based on conjecture and pagan historians. You want me to believe the OT AND NT, translations by unknown authors, WE KNOW HERE THE QURAN COMES FROM, THE MATHEMATICAL ACCURACY THE RECITATION EVERYDAY 24 hours a day is Proof that it is a miracle enough, the words are unchallenged and widely criticized as there has always been criticism of the truth and opposition to the WORDS OF ALLAH. THIS IS NOTHING NEW, VERY WEAK ATTEMPTS AT SPREADING FALSEHOOD>
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YOU a very skillfull liar Peter, ........
Since the false prophet Muhammad compels you believe the EXACT OPPOSITE of the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel, then it isn't surprising that you would perceive that what the bible says are lies. But who did God make the liar?
1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
......... your references and accusations are nothing but misguided rhetoric, specifically on the Makkah and ka'ba issue you have nothing but conjecture, .......
Sorry, but what I have is research from Islam and Arabia's historical records. Didn't you even see the bibliography?
THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1133.0
[1] Tarikh al-Tabari, I, page 524
[ii][2] Al-Azruqi, Akhbar Mecca, 1/6
[iii][3] A. Jamme, W.F., Sabaean Inscriptions from Mahram Bilqis (Ma'rib), the Johns Hopkins Press, Baltimore, 1962, Volume III, page 387; there are also Texts numbered by G. Ryckmans after himself, G. Ryckmans, Le Museon 66 (1953), pages 363-7, p1.V; quoted by K.A. Kitchen , Documentation For Ancient Arabia, Part I, Liverpool University Press, 1994, page 219
[iv][4] Al-Azruqi, Akhbar Mecca, 1:173; Yaqut al-Hamawi, Mujam al-Buldan, 4:463
[v][5] Ibn Saad, Tabakat, 1, page 64
[vi][6] Ibn Hisham 1, page 20
[vii][7] Halabieh 1, page 235; Ibn Hisham I, page 157; al-Azruqi, Akhbar Mecca I, page 104
[viii][8] Tarikh al-Tabari, I, page 526
[ix][9] Sahih Muslim 9, page 15
[10] Tarikh al-Tabari, I, page 426-428; al-Ya'akubi I, page 226
[xi][11] Tarikh al-Tabari, I, page 429
[xii][12] Halabieh I, page 280
[xiii][13] Tarikh al-Tabari, I, pages 331, 332, 360
[xiv][14] Halabieh I, page 236
[xv][15] Al-Bukhari 5, page 122; Halabieh I, page 259
[xvi][16] Quotation by Alessandro Bausani, L'Islam, Garzanti Milano, 1980, page 208
[xvii][17] Quoted in Mizan al-Islam by Anwar al-Jundi, page 170 ;Behind the Veil, page 184
[xviii][18] Tarikh al-Tabari, I, pages 431 and 360 also mentioned the emigration to the area of Hira in Mesopotamia of tribes descended from Maad bin Adnan from Yemen.
[xix][19] K.A. Kitchen, Documentation For Ancient Arabia, Part I , Liverpool University Press, 1994, page 251
[xx][20] James Montgomery, Arabia and the Bible, University of Pennsylvania Press, Philadelphia, 1934, page 126; Montgomery also quotes Philby, The Heart of Arabia, II, page 97
[xxi][21] Ibn Hisham I, page 12
[xxii][22] Ibn Hisham I, page 13
[xxiii][23] The commentators on Ibn Hisham I, page 13
...... you have not excavated Makkah, ........
If Mecca had been populated for the last 6,000 years, for miles around a person wouldn't be able to dig in their backyard without finding layer upon layer of artifacts. Yet there is not a single shred of evidence of life in Mecca from before the Christian era. Only lies that were created in the 7th through the 10th century AD that masquerade as thousands of years of pre-Muhammad history.
....... I am not looking for evidence you are, you making a baseless claim, ......
Simply because you are willing to lie won't make it magically come true. The BASIS is the ABSENCE of historical and archaeological EVIDENCE.
...... I am not under any obligation to prove you wrong you are like the conjecturers before you making a flase claim based on conjecture and pagan historians.
Look at the list above. While I can agree with your statement that they are pagans, Hisham is your only link to Ishak, and is who all the later liars like Bukhari copied and embellished.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2860.0
You want me to believe the OT AND NT, translations .......
If you don't like the translations, then go straight to the Koine Greek / English interlinear for the New Testament. But you prefer to run and hide from truth, rather than simply investigating the EVIDENCE, to discover where the truth is.
Why not start with these videos?
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2572.0
...... by unknown authors, .......
The authors are the very same prophets and patriarchs that Muslims are supposed to revere.
Yet you reject and blaspheme them all, and particularly Jesus Christ, because you follow a 7th century imperialistic conquering, child doing, concubine keeping, mass murdering, self admitted terrorist and thief.
...... WE KNOW HERE THE QURAN COMES FROM, ......
And that's really the whole point. It comes from a SW Arabian desert dwelling illiterate 6 centuries after the scriptures were closed.
Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book
Yet your false prophet compels you to believe the EXACT OPPOSITE of the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel.
The Quran and Hadith come from men who penned Muhammad's ramblings 150 years after the fact, and then found it to be in such an unintelligible mess that it was necessary for them to embellish it with further fantasy all the way into the 10th century. Even washing pages and rewriting them hundreds of years later. And of course you know that the Arabic you read it in today is not the Arabic even these late copies was written in. Why don't you read this subject and try to learn something about the Quran?
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2576.0
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a7/SanaaQuoranDoubleVersions.jpg/350px-SanaaQuoranDoubleVersions.jpg)
...... THE MATHEMATICAL ACCURACY THE RECITATION EVERYDAY 24 hours a day is Proof that it is a miracle enough, ......
That is proof of exactly what I have been charging in regard to Islam being thinly repackaged Arabian pagan idolatry that has NOTHING whatsoever to do with the God of the bible.
Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
...... the words are unchallenged .........
Don't be ridiculous. Here is the opinion of someone who devoted his life to historical orthography, and Arabic paleography:
Gerd Puin was the head of a restoration project, commissioned by the Yemeni government, which spent a significant amount of time examining the ancient Qur'anic manuscripts discovered in Sana'a, Yemen, in 1972, in order to find criteria for systematically cataloging them. According to writer Toby Lester, his examination revealed "unconventional verse orderings, minor textual variations, and rare styles of orthography and artistic embellishment."[1] The scriptures were written in the early Hijazi Arabic script, matching the pieces of the earliest Qur'ans known to exist. Some of the papyrus on which the text appears shows clear signs of earlier use, being that previous, washed-off writings are also visible on it. In 2008 and 2009 Dr Elisabeth Puin published detailed results of the analysis of Sanaa manuscript DAM (dar al-makhtutat) 01.27-1 proving that the text was still in flux in the time span between the scriptio inferior and the scriptio superior of the palimpsest (Ein Frueher Koranpalimpsest aus San'a', part 1 in Schlaglichter 2008, part 2 in Vom Koran zum Islam 2009, both ed. Markus Gross and Karl-Heinz Ohlig, Verlag Hans Schiler Berlin).
More than 15,000 sheets of the Yemeni Qur'ans have painstakingly been cleaned, treated, sorted, cataloged and photographed and 35,000 microfilmed photos have been made of the manuscripts. Some of Puin's initial remarks on his findings are found in his essay titled the "Observations on Early Qur'an Manuscripts in San'a" which has been republished in the book What the Koran Really Says by Ibn Warraq.
Assessment of the Qur'an
In the 1999 Atlantic Monthly article referenced below, Gerd Puin is quoted as saying that:[1]
My idea is that the Koran is a kind of cocktail of texts that were not all understood even at the time of Muhammad. Many of them may even be a hundred years older than Islam itself. Even within the Islamic traditions there is a huge body of contradictory information, including a significant Christian substrate; one can derive a whole Islamic anti-history from them if one wants. The Qur’an claims for itself that it is ‘mubeen,’ or clear, but if you look at it, you will notice that every fifth sentence or so simply doesn’t make sense. Many Muslims will tell you otherwise, of course, but the fact is that a fifth of the Qur’anic text is just incomprehensible. This is what has caused the traditional anxiety regarding translation. If the Qur’an is not comprehensible, if it can’t even be understood in Arabic, then it’s not translatable into any language. That is why Muslims are afraid. Since the Qur’an claims repeatedly to be clear but is not—there is an obvious and serious contradiction. Something else must be going on.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerd_R._Puin
........ and widely criticized as there has always been criticism of the truth and opposition to the WORDS OF ALLAH.
The Arabian pagan deity "Allah" served as nothing more than Muhammad's alter-ego. Why do you think he awarded Muhammad 1/5 of all the property stolen from others, just like a Mafia Don? Why do you think "Allah" gave Muhammad a special "revelation" so he could steal his monogamous step-son's only wife? Why did his "Allah" award Muhammad all the wives he desired to satiate his ravenous sexual appetite - but only for Muhammad? WAKE UP MAN! SNAP OUT OF IT!
THIS IS NOTHING NEW, VERY WEAK ATTEMPTS AT SPREADING FALSEHOOD>
My dear friend, it was Muhammad that did that, spreading the EXACT OPPOSITE of the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel by way of his wife Khadijah's cousin Waraqa bin Naufal's Gnostic Ebionite occult, cult.
http://www.petewaldo.com/simon_magnus_gnostics_ebionites_islam.htm
If 7th century womanizing child doing Muhammad was not a false prophet, then all of the prophets and patriarchs of the scriptures were false.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=148.0
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YOU a very skillfull liar Peter, ........
Since the false prophet Muhammad compels you believe the EXACT OPPOSITE of the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel, then it isn't surprising that you would perceive that what the bible says are lies. But who did God make the liar?
1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
My dear friend, it was Muhammad that did that, spreading the EXACT OPPOSITE of the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel by way of his wife Khadijah's cousin Waraqa bin Naufal's Gnostic Ebionite occult, cult.
http://www.petewaldo.com/simon_magnus_gnostics_ebionites_islam.htm
If 7th century womanizing child doing Muhammad was not a false prophet, then all of the prophets and patriarchs of the scriptures were false.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=148.0
The Greeks and the Romans wrote a story according to their pagan beliefs attempting to make the scripture more acceptable for their kingdom. Why would I go to Koine Greek when none of the Prophets of the Scripture are Romans or Greeks. Why would I trust Jewish translators when they persecuted and killed numerous Prophets of GOD. There is more than sufficient evidence that the Gospels were hand chosen and modified by the Nicean Council.
I understand your misguided point of view clearly and it is no different to that of the Jews that opposed Jesus or the Pharoah and the egyptians that opposed Moses or the people of Abraham that threw him into the fire, You Claiming divinity of Jesus and believe the conjecture of politicians and self serving men that commanded power over the word of GOD, THE LORD YOUR GOD IS ONE, YOU SHALL WORSHIP NONE OTHER BUT HIM FOR HE IS A JEALOUS GOD. YOU contradict 125000 Prophets sent with this message by following ROMAN and GReek conjecture.
Then you falsely accuse the Prophet Muhammad of contradicting scripture without citing as much as single verse that proves it. Muhammad only contradicts that which the Gospels contradict in itself.
I am appalled at the line of argument you choose to attack that which benefitted you in ways that you unable to calculate.
I realise that you have been arguing on such a low level that you fail to understand simple logic. you lack the knowledge of basic history of the gospels and scripture and you lack the knowledge of the history of the very modernities you enjoy. lets start with your morning cup of coffee, brought to you by the Muslims who enjoyed and brewed the beverage for nearly 1000 years before anyone in the world knew what a coffee tree looked like. then study the history of the bible, then look at the first book of Algebra (alkhawarij)
What is my point, it is very clear 6th century to 14th century history of humanity and the benefit that resulted for the entire Christendom.
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YOU a very skillfull liar Peter, ........
Since the false prophet Muhammad compels you believe the EXACT OPPOSITE of the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel, then it isn't surprising that you would perceive that what the bible says are lies. But who did God make the liar?
1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
My dear friend, it was Muhammad that did that, spreading the EXACT OPPOSITE of the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel by way of his wife Khadijah's cousin Waraqa bin Naufal's Gnostic Ebionite occult, cult.
http://www.petewaldo.com/simon_magnus_gnostics_ebionites_islam.htm
If 7th century womanizing child doing Muhammad was not a false prophet, then all of the prophets and patriarchs of the scriptures were false.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=148.0
The Greeks and the Romans wrote a story according to their pagan beliefs attempting to make the scripture more acceptable for their kingdom. Why would I go to Koine Greek when none of the Prophets of the Scripture are Romans or Greeks.
Because Koine Greek is the language that the New Testament was revealed in.
Jesus, John and the rest of the New Testament prophets were subjects of the Roman Empire and Koine Greek was still the lingua franca. Indeed the Romans were the ones who persecuted and slaughtered the new covenant prophets and Christians, and killed nearly a million Jews in 70 AD, and another half million in 132-136 AD.
Why would I trust Jewish translators when they persecuted and killed numerous Prophets of GOD.
Because the Jews who did the persecuting were not the Jews that handled the inspired word of God. And because of what we know about Hebrew scribal methodology - unlike the Quran that was still in a state of flux a hundred years after Muhammad. Compare the textual history of the two.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=97.0
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2576.0
There is more than sufficient evidence that the Gospels were hand chosen and modified by the Nicaean Council.
Do you see how lies flow from your lips as easily as saying "hello"? The Gospel was not modified in Nicaea. It would have been impossible because even today we still have over 5300 partial or complete manuscripts of the New Testament that were penned prior to 300 A.D. - penned prior to the Nicean Council. ALL of them, of course, demonstrating THE false prophet Muhammad proclaimed the EXACT OPPOSITE of the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea#Agenda_and_procedure
"It is impossible to support any kind of later corrupting when we have those 5300 early manuscripts that prove otherwise. In fact, because of this breadth of early manuscript support, textual scholars have concluded -- that for all practical purposes -- we have the original documents themselves. For a claim of tampering to be seriously considered, one would have to show that scribes from Syria, Babylonia, Galatia, Asia, India, Rome, India, Egypt, Greece, Carthage, Tarshish and Macedonia -- to name a few -- all made the same mistake, at the same time, for the same doctrinal purpose. An utterly ridiculous idea."
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/bible_manuscript_errors_.htm
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=97.0
1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
After the inspired Gospel was penned in the first century, many written words of men followed, in the first couple centuries of Christianity. Much of it of tremendous historical value even though it was not written through divine inspiration. As a result texts had to be identified as such, and were disqualified from being canonized, on the basis of internal or historical errors demonstrating the absence of divine inspiration. Certainly not of the egregious level of provable preposterous historical blundering and 7th - 10th century pure created fiction that we find throughout the Quran and hadith.
I understand your misguided point of view clearly and it is no different to that of the Jews that opposed Jesus or the Pharoah and the egyptians that opposed Moses or the people of Abraham that threw him into the fire, .........
That is a hilarious and preposterous fable that was created by Muhammadans in the 7th to 10th century AD from thin air, about people that lived a couple thousand years previously. That foolishness alone should be enough to make you run from Muhammad like a scalded dog.
Nimrod and Abraham didn't live within 700 years of each other!!!
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1158.0
See how foolish Muhammadan fiction is? Let alone flying donkey-mules (http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1713.0) like the Zoroastrians fables before Muhammad!
.......... You Claiming divinity of Jesus ......
Jesus claimed His own divinity.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=108.0
........ and believe the conjecture of politicians and self serving men that commanded power over the word of GOD, THE LORD YOUR GOD IS ONE, YOU SHALL WORSHIP NONE OTHER BUT HIM .......
How can a Christian do otherwise?
Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment. 31 And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. 32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: 33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love [his] neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
Yet you call on the NAME of the Arabian pagan deity "Allah". Even Muhammad's father's name was "Abdullah" which meant he was slave to the Quraish pagan's deity Allah. You prostrate yourself to the Quraish pagan's black stone idol 5 times a day and engage in thinly veneered pagan Arabian moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship rituals. Why don't you show us through the scriptures how venerating a black stone idol could possibly be of God.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1050.0
(http://ivarfjeld.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/42553621_mashaalap416.jpg)
Located at the Quraish pagan's kaaba that was regularly inundated with floodwater laced with human sewage. Here's your - broken to pieces - black stone idol awash in human poopoo.
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1376/1401247982_3db4faa70e.jpg)
Does that look like a "temple" whose (not even symmetrical) construction was inspired by God, or by a bunch of 5th century pagan Arabian moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worshipers who then marched around it naked in veneration of 360 idols?
http://petewaldo.com/hajj_umrah.htm
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....... FOR HE IS A JEALOUS GOD. YOU contradict 125000 Prophets ...........
You poor thing. Here you proclaim the EXACT OPPOSITE of the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel, because Satan by way of THE false prophet Muhammad, filled you with complete resolve as to what to DISbelieve, DENY and REJECT. Indeed the whole subject of the whole bible as prophesied in the Old Testament and fulfilled in the New.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm
If you are going to accuse Christians of contradicting125000 prophets then you are going to need to show us the records of 125000 prophets and explain how we contradict them. Can you please direct us to the records and prophecy of these 125000 prophets. On what basis do you make a claim that there were 125000 prophets?
Can you begin to understand how compromised your critical thinking ability has become as a result of your being brainwashed by such fictional tripe?
............ sent with this message by following ROMAN and GReek conjecture.
Then you falsely accuse the Prophet Muhammad of contradicting scripture without citing as much as single verse that proves it.
How can you tell such a transparent and easily exposed lie? Oh that's right, you follow the father of lies. Even in the text of mine that you quoted in this very post I am addressing (http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1790.msg13947#msg13947), is a verse that specifically demonstrates that the false prophet Muhammad not only contradicted, but indeed declared the exact opposite of the Gospel, while simultaneously declaring Muhammad and you to be liars.
Additionally, citing verses from scripture to show how Muhammad contradicted scripture and proclaimed the EXACT OPPOSITE, forms the basis of this forum and my websites and youtubes. Muhammad proclaimed the EXACT OPPOSITE of the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel, for heaven's sake. NOTHING ELSE MATTERS. YOU ONLY NEED THE FOLLOWING TWO VERSES to understand the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel - indeed the whole bible.
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, ......
Muhammad's is a filthy lie from straight out of the pit of hell. The EXACT OPPOSITE of the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel, to prevent those who follow THE false prophet Muhammad ALONE from being saved by the shed blood of the Messiah, and continue to follow Satan as the Quraish pagans did by prostrating yourself to their black stone idol in Mecca, and praying in vain repetitions of the heathen 5 times a day.
Matthew 27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.
Mark 15:24 And when they had crucified him, they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take.
Luke 23:33 And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left. 34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
John 19:23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also [his] coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout. 24 They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.
Just as prophesied so many hundreds of years in advance in the Old Testament book of Psalms, and long before crucifixion was ever even invented:
Psalms 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I may tell all my bones: they look [and] stare upon me. 18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
(continued) ....... and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
Mark 15:39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.
Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
John 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
Yet you choose to reject those contemporaries of Jesus, to believe a lie from a 7th century mass murdering, child doing, terrorist, thief.
http://petewaldo.com/
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=148.0
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Muhammad only contradicts that which the Gospels contradict in itself.
Please explain to us how the Gospel contradicts the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel which is the crucifixion, death and resurrection of our blessed Messiah, who saves all from sin who have faith in his shed blood.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=54.0
Just as it was prophesied so many hundreds of years before in the Old Testament.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1007.0
And as prophesied by Jesus Himself:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2439.0
I am appalled at the line of argument you choose to attack that which benefitted you in ways that you unable to calculate.
Sure. Why would anybody want to choose a "line of argument" based on facts and evidence rather than fables and fantasy? Based on the scriptural, historical, archaeological and geographical records. Far better to follow preposterous nonsense penned by a bunch of semi-literate 7th to 10th century SW Arabian desert dwellers, who CREATED PURE FICTION about things that were supposed to have gone on thousands of years beforehand. That's how you wander around with preposterous nonsense about Abraham and Nimrod as earlier exposed.
I realise that you have been arguing on such a low level that you fail to understand simple logic.
So now you're going to tell us that it is logical to believe that Muhammad rode around on a flying donkey-mule?
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1253.0
you lack the knowledge of basic history of the gospels and scripture .......
History? In order to follow Muhammad you have to ignore scripture, history, archaeology and geography until your intellect becomes that of an illiterate 7th century SW Arabian desert dwelling.
You must IGNORE the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel and the BASIS of scripture, because you choose to follow a mass murdering, child doing, self-admitted terrorist and thief who proclaimed the EXACT OPPOSITE.
........ and you lack the knowledge of the history of the very modernities you enjoy. lets start with your morning cup of coffee, brought to you by the Muslims who enjoyed and brewed the beverage for nearly 1000 years before anyone in the world knew what a coffee tree looked like.
Do you see how you are compelled to turn to irrelevant subjects, rather than seriously face the fact, that Muhammad compels you to believe the EXACT OPPOSITE of the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel?
then study the history of the bible, then look at the first book of Algebra (alkhawarij)
What is my point, it is very clear 6th century to 14th century history of humanity and the benefit that resulted for the entire Christendom.
I don't doubt that earlier Muslim minds, functioned a bit more like pre-Muhammad Arabian minds, before 1400 years of inbreeding took its toll on the minds of Muhammad's followers.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2852.msg13955#msg13955
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1844.0
If you want to talk about coffee and algebra I recommend you to to forums devoted to those subjects. The purpose of this forum is to show you how horribly deceived by Satan you are through his antichrist, mass murdering, child doing, female prisoner abusing, self-admitted terrorist and thief, false prophet Muhammad.
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I had to fix your post again. You keep dropping the last [/ quote] tag.
Muhammad only contradicts that which the Gospels contradict in itself.
Please explain to us how the Gospel contradicts the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel which is the crucifixion, death and resurrection of our blessed Messiah, who saves all from sin who have faith in his shed blood.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=54.0
Just as it was prophesied so many hundreds of years before in the Old Testament.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1007.0
And as prophesied by Jesus Himself:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2439.0
I am appalled at the line of argument you choose to attack that which benefitted you in ways that you unable to calculate.
Sure. Why would anybody want to choose a "line of argument" based on facts and evidence rather than fables and fantasy? Based on the scriptural, historical, archaeological and geographical records. Far better to follow preposterous nonsense penned by a bunch of semi-literate 7th to 10th century SW Arabian desert dwellers, who CREATED PURE FICTION about things that were supposed to have gone on thousands of years beforehand. That's how you wander around with preposterous nonsense about Abraham and Nimrod as earlier exposed.
I realise that you have been arguing on such a low level that you fail to understand simple logic.
So now you're going to tell us that it is logical to believe that Muhammad rode around on a flying donkey-mule?
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1253.0
you lack the knowledge of basic history of the gospels and scripture .......
History? In order to follow Muhammad you have to ignore scripture, history, archaeology and geography until your intellect becomes that of an illiterate 7th century SW Arabian desert dwelling.
You must IGNORE the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel and the BASIS of scripture, because you choose to follow a mass murdering, child doing, self-admitted terrorist and thief who proclaimed the EXACT OPPOSITE.
YOUR SO CALLED ARCHEOLOGICAL RECORDS ARE CONJECTURES BASD ON ERRONEOUS INFORMATION TO BEGIN WITH AS THE PREVIOUS AUTHORS OF YOUR BIBLE (BIBLIOS SIMPLY MEANS BOOK AND NOT THE TRUTH OR HOLY) HAS WRITTEN SOMETHING THAT SUITS THEIR POLITICAL AGENDA AS AGENTS OF SATAN:
There is no evidence that the accounts the bible you present is factual. The evidence has been created by the JEWS greeks and romans to fulfill political agendas
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Muhammad only contradicts that which the Gospels contradict in itself.
Please explain to us how the Gospel contradicts the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel which is the crucifixion, death and resurrection of our blessed Messiah, who saves all from sin who have faith in his shed blood.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=54.0
Just as it was prophesied so many hundreds of years before in the Old Testament.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1007.0
And as prophesied by Jesus Himself:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2439.0
I am appalled at the line of argument you choose to attack that which benefitted you in ways that you unable to calculate.
Sure. Why would anybody want to choose a "line of argument" based on facts and evidence rather than fables and fantasy? Based on the scriptural, historical, archaeological and geographical records. Far better to follow preposterous nonsense penned by a bunch of semi-literate 7th to 10th century SW Arabian desert dwellers, who CREATED PURE FICTION about things that were supposed to have gone on thousands of years beforehand. That's how you wander around with preposterous nonsense about Abraham and Nimrod as earlier exposed.
I realise that you have been arguing on such a low level that you fail to understand simple logic.
So now you're going to tell us that it is logical to believe that Muhammad rode around on a flying donkey-mule?
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1253.0
you lack the knowledge of basic history of the gospels and scripture .......
History? In order to follow Muhammad you have to ignore scripture, history, archaeology and geography until your intellect becomes that of an illiterate 7th century SW Arabian desert dwelling.
You must IGNORE the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel and the BASIS of scripture, because you choose to follow a mass murdering, child doing, self-admitted terrorist and thief who proclaimed the EXACT OPPOSITE.
YOUR SO CALLED ARCHEOLOGICAL RECORDS ARE CONJECTURES BASD ON ERRONEOUS INFORMATION TO BEGIN WITH AS THE PREVIOUS AUTHORS OF YOUR BIBLE (BIBLIOS SIMPLY MEANS BOOK AND NOT THE TRUTH OR HOLY) HAS WRITTEN SOMETHING THAT SUITS THEIR POLITICAL AGENDA AS AGENTS OF SATAN:
There is no evidence that the accounts the bible you present is factual. The evidence has been created by the JEWS greeks and romans to fulfill political agendas
Do you really think that making false claims against the well supported history, archaeology, and geography of the 1600 year record of the one true God of the scriptures, will somehow magically create a pre-4th century AD history of Mecca, from thin air? When there is not a shred of evidence that suggests other than it didn't exist before the 4th century AD.
We have a whole forum section dedicated to the refutation of your empty claims.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=68.0
So then I guess you have become an atheist since the scriptures of the one true God are supposed to be the basis of Muhammad's stand-alone religion, which is actually based on the Arabian pagan's deity "Allah" and Arabian pagan moon, sun star and jinn-devil worship rituals. Lots of Muslims do become atheists, when they first overcome the false prophet Muhammad, and then later on let Jesus fill that empty hole in their hearts.
But what did Muhammad say about the scriptures that you blaspheme?
Sura 5:68 Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.
Sura 5:47 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
Sura 80.13 (It is) in Books held (greatly) in honour, 14 Exalted (in dignity), kept pure and holy,15 (Written) by the hands of scribes- 16 Honourable and Pious and Just.
When Muhammad recited that there weren't any Islamic books. So Muj, do you believe Muhammad's alter-ego "Allah" was a liar, for having made what you yourself can only judge as foolish recommendations and claims, that are so contrary to your claims?
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/
Do you see how Satan has filled you with a spirit of DISbelief rather than belief? It starts with Muhammad's proclaiming the EXACT OPPOSITE of the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel, and antichrist blasphemy (http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=273.0) against the Son of God.
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Muhammad only contradicts that which the Gospels contradict in itself.
Please explain to us how the Gospel contradicts the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel which is the crucifixion, death and resurrection of our blessed Messiah, who saves all from sin who have faith in his shed blood.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=54.0
You are reading a greek Roman version of the Bible are you not? is there human sacrifice anywhere in the Bible. Did God not replace the human sacrifice with a lamb? Along come s a new religion and says that The lamb is Jesus (firstly the person on the Cross was not sacrificed he was Crucified) secondly the act was not voluntary its was subjected on the person.
Thirdly the Gospels are written by the Nicean council unless you have the originals of the Scribes (Just because scrolls appear to be similar it is not the same especially if you only have partial scrolls from a 300 hundred years after the fact.
DID JESUS ASCEND INTO HEAVEN? DID THE SEA PART FOR MOSES? DID ABRAHAM BURN IN THE FIRE MADE FOR HIM?
IS ALL THINGS POSSIBLE FOR GOD? IF YOUR ANSWER IS YES then explain how it is not possible for GOD to choose another offspring of Abraham (from amongst the Arabs to lead mankind?
You are like the Jews in Madina who were waiting for the Comforter and rejected him when he was from amongst the ARABS (ALL FROM THE SAME LINEAGE)
PETER You are gullible like most people and driven by a passion (thats good) but blinded by a book that you don't understand, it is written in a language not chosen by GOD> THE Scriptural language Is ARABIC (ARAMAIC DIALECT OF ARABIC from which HEBREW CAME)
(GOD CHOSE THE CHILDREN OF ABRAHAM TO LEAD THE NATIONS OF THE WORLD TO GOD> ONE SINGULAR UNIQUE GOD WHOSE NAME IS ALLAH.
THE GREEK ROMAN VERSION TAKEN FROM CORRUPTED JEWISH BOOKS CONTRADICTS THE VERY NOTION OF WORSHIPPING NONE OTHER THAN GOD.
YOU CAN ARGUE OR YOU CAN DO RESERACH (PROPER RESEARCH) THE TRUTH WILL ONLY ENTER A HEART THAT IS OPEN TO IT.
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You are reading a greek Roman version of the Bible are you not?
Yes, the New Testament was revealed in Koine Greek because that was the lingua franca of the first century Holy Land.
is there human sacrifice anywhere in the Bible.
If you had ever read the bible you would have recognized the advance "type", in the story of Abraham's near sacrifice of Isaac, when YHWH was testing his faith.
Did God not replace the human sacrifice with a lamb?
Levital sacrifice in the temple that YHWH had His people build on the temple mount, was not a "replacement", for pagan sacrifice of children, like that which God judged the Canaanites for.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2943.0
Or like Muhammad's pagan grandfather almost did, when he nearly sacrificed Muhammad's father to the idols of Asaf and Naelah on the hills of Al-Safa and Al-Marwah.
http://petewaldo.com/hajj_umrah.htm#animal_sacrifice
Along come s a new religion and says that The lamb is Jesus (firstly the person on the Cross was not sacrificed he was Crucified) secondly the act was not voluntary its was subjected on the person.
Not new at all, since it was the fulfillment, of Old Testament prophecy. That makes the crucifixion of the prophesied Messiah, basically, the subject of the whole bible.
Psalms 22:17 For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me, like a lion, my hands and feet. 18. I tell about all my bones. They look and gloat over me. 19. They share my garments among themselves and cast lots for my raiment.
That was penned before crucifixion was ever even invented. What do you suppose is meant by "like a lion, my hands and feet"? Like a lion licking them? Or using tooth or claw to pierce them?
That prophecy is confirmed, in the crucifixion of our Messiah:
Mat 27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.
Mar 15:24 And when they had crucified him, they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take.
Luk 23:33 And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left. 34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
Jhn 19:18 Where they crucified him, and two other with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst. 19 And Pilate wrote a title, and put [it] on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.
Jhn 19:23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also [his] coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout.
The following Isaiah verses are copied and pasted from the Tanach on a Jewish site:
Isaiah 53:1. Who would have believed our report, and to whom was the arm of the Lord revealed? 2. And he came up like a sapling before it, and like a root from dry ground, he had neither form nor comeliness; and we saw him that he had no appearance. Now shall we desire him? 3. Despised and rejected by men (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=1&v=11&t=KJV#11), a man of pains and accustomed to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and we held him of no account. 4. Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=26&v=65&t=KJV#65) and oppressed. 5. But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=27&t=KJV#26). 6. We all went astray like sheep, we have turned, each one on his way, and the Lord accepted his prayers for the iniquity of all of us. (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Ti&c=2&t=KJV#5) 7. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he would not open his mouth (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mar&c=15&v=2&t=KJV#2); like a lamb to the slaughter (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=1&t=KJV#29) he would be brought, and like a ewe that is mute before her shearers, and he would not open his mouth. 8. From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living (http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=gave+up+ghost&t=KJV); because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them. 9. And he gave his grave to the wicked (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rev&c=20&t=KJV#14), and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. 10. And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rom&c=8&t=KJV#28) in his hand. 11. From the toil of his soul he would see, he would be satisfied; with his knowledge My servant would vindicate the just for many, and their iniquities he would bear. 12. Therefore, I will allot him a portion in public, and with the strong he shall share plunder, because he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=27&t=KJV#38); and he bore the sin of many (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Hbr&c=9&t=KJV#28), and interceded for the transgressors (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Luk&c=23&t=KJV#34).
John 1:23 He said, I [am] the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias. (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Isa&c=40&t=KJV#3)
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God (http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=lamb+sin&t=KJV&sf=5), which taketh away the sin of the world.
Psalms 22:17 For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me, like a lion, my hands and feet. 18. I tell about all my bones. They look and gloat over me. 19. They share my garments among themselves and cast lots for my raiment.
The passover Lamb of God was crucified, and not a bone of Him was broken.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3080.0
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Hi PotatoMuslim. I split off your post and replies as I thought it was important, since it added additional information to this forum as well as my websites, and I didn't want it to get lost in the body of this thread.
We can continue our chat at this link:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3631.0
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I just came across this website today and don't know if this is true or not. If so it is no small fact, but just another nail in the coffin, in which we are burying Islam.
http://islamdom.blogspot.com/2007/10/mecca-in-archeology.html
"Mecca is certainly not on the natural overland trade routes- it is a barren valley requiring a one hundred mile detour."
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I just came across this website today and don't know if this is true or not. If so it is no small fact, but just another nail in the coffin, in which we are burying Islam.
http://islamdom.blogspot.com/2007/10/mecca-in-archeology.html
"Mecca is certainly not on the natural overland trade routes- it is a barren valley requiring a one hundred mile detour."
1434 years of Hajj.
Millions upon millions of people who reverted to Islam the number increases every year.
The region is blessed with wealth from God to the extant that many Christion Majority nations protects it from unscrupulous leaders.
The history and the people of Arabia particularly from the barren valley with no vegetation has touched the lives of every living human being.
The numerals everyone uses everyday is their old number system
It is God who decides which nation will lead humanity. Your arguments only serve to reinforce that Islam is the light and the truth and the way. And that all the the prophets are Muslim and everything else a deviation.
P
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I just came across this website today and don't know if this is true or not. If so it is no small fact, but just another nail in the coffin, in which we are burying Islam.
http://islamdom.blogspot.com/2007/10/mecca-in-archeology.html
"Mecca is certainly not on the natural overland trade routes- it is a barren valley requiring a one hundred mile detour."
1434 years of Hajj.
Come on Muj. Even you should know it was going on for a hundred or so years before that, in Arabian pagan moon sun, star and jinn-devil worship. In fact Muhammad's followers joined the pagans shoulder to shoulder in performing the hajj, right up until the year before Muhammad's last Hajj, when the poor pagans were kicked out of their own ritual:
Sahih Bukhari Volume 2, Book 26, Number 689: Narrated Abu Huraira: In the year prior to the last Hajj of the Prophet when Allahs Apostle made Abu Bakr the leader of the pilgrims, the latter (Abu Bakr) sent me in the company of a group of people to make a public announcement: 'No pagan is allowed to perform Hajj after this year, and no naked person is allowed to perform Tawaf of the Kaba.'
Can you imagine a bunch of naked pagans and Muslims circumambulating the Kaaba?!
Muhammad's closest followers knew the Sa'ee was nothing more than a recycled Arabian pagan jinn-devil worship ritual:
Narrated 'Asim: I asked Anas bin Malik: "Did you use to dislike to perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa?" He said, "Yes, as it was of the ceremonies of the days of the Pre-lslamic period of ignorance...... (2.158) (Sahih al-Bukhari 2 Book 26 710)
http://www.petewaldo.com/hajj_umrah.htm#al_safa_al_marwah
Yet here they go anyway!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyK8_8qeL84
Millions upon millions of people who reverted to Islam the number increases every year.
The region is blessed with wealth from God to the extant that many Christion Majority nations protects it from unscrupulous leaders.
The history and the people of Arabia particularly from the barren valley with no vegetation .......
Making it uninhabitable, which is exactly why Mecca did not exist before about the 4th century AD, long after the trade route had been established, to sustain the residents through trade as a watering hole, from the well that Muhammad's grandfather dug.
Abdel originally dug the well to establish Hajj around the most venerated priest and priestess in the Arabian jinn religion, Asaf and Neilah.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1784.0
...... has touched the lives of every living human being.
And that's the tragedy of it. Certainly "touching" some more than others:
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/muslim_persecution_of_christians.htm
Here's a snapshot of what's been going on in Nigerian towns, from Nigeria Calabash:
12/28/2012 Musari: Islamists tie up fifteen women and children inside a church, then slit their throats while shouting praises to Allah.
12/26/2012 Bachit: Suspected Fulani murder three villagers, including a married couple, in attacks on two Christian homes.
12/25/2012 Peri: A pastor and five worshippers are slaughtered in a Religion of Peace attack on a Christmas morning church service.
12/25/2012 Rim: A Christian is killed in his home by Fulani gunmen in front of his family.
12/24/2012 Maiduguri: Six people are killed in a Christmas Eve church attack by Religion of Peace gunmen.
12/6/2012 Yankaba: Two Christian teenagers are executed by gunmen on a motorcycle yelling, 'Allah akbar'.
12/2/2012 Chibok: Religion of Peace proponents invade a Christian village in the middle of the night and massacre ten residents.
12/1/2012 Gamboru Ngala: Two guards die when Muslims shouting 'Allah Akbar' burn churches.
11/25/2012 Jaji: Two suicide bombers massacre fifteen worshippers at a Protestant church.
11/22/2012 Bichi: Angry Muslims riot, burn churches and kills four Christians over a rumor of blasphemy concerning a t-shirt."
The numerals everyone uses everyday is their old number system
It is God who decides which nation will lead humanity.
The kingdoms of this world have been Satan's legal possession, ever since Adam's fall. It is Satan that leads the kingdoms of this world. This is why Islam has lusted after control of the kingdoms of this world for 1400 years.
Those of us that are saved are in the kingdom of God, and specifically called out of Satan's worldly kingdoms.
Your arguments only serve to reinforce that Islam is the light and the truth and the way. And that all the the prophets are Muslim and everything else a deviation.
P
Yet the only reason you believe anything about a pre-Muhammad so-called Islam, is from pure fictional poppycock that was all created and put to the pen in the 7th to 10th centuries AD, without reference to any actual historical record that preceded the 6th century AD.
Those semi-literate SW Arabian desert dwellers are the only reason you reject the 1600 year record of the one true God of the scriptures of YHWH to mankind, as revealed through ALL of His prophets and witnesses, that his people have followed through two covenants for 3500 years - to follow a 7th century, violent, imperialistic, murderous, truth censoring, antichrist cult, with a scripture-contrary, history-devoid, archaeology-bankrupt, reality-rejecting, geographically-impossible so-called "tradition".
2Thessalonians 2:9 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/strong_delusion.htm
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Let me tell again that I accept all the Prophets of God from Adam to Moses Abraham and his offspring All the children of Israel up to the time of Jesus when they were cursed to be ruled by other nations and the finality of prophethood by Muhammed because I have studied scripture. I went to an Anglican school from the impressionable age of 9 years old. I studied various texts and the doctrines of religious and political leaders from Ghandi to Nelson Mandela. The most complete most beautiful most up to date relevant and that has presented the world with the most benefit irrespective of what they believe is Islam.
There is one God your lord Allah. The creator and sustainer of all creation. No one is worthy of worship but Allah
Muhammad is the person chosen to be the messenger to bring the truth after the deviation of The words of Allah by man. I cannot reject the Gospels and scripture outright but as it is tainted by human hands and open to connecture and sceculation i judge as Allah commanded us and follow the book of guidance the Quran
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Let me tell again that I accept all the Prophets of God from Adam to Moses Abraham and his offspring All the children of Israel up to the time of Jesus .........
While you may have been taught to parrot that, you must reject the whole subject of the Gospel, and reject Jesus as a prophet, for His having prophesied His own crucifixion death and resurrection - the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel.
Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm
Just as "written in the Psalms":
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/psalms_22.htm#psalms_22_16
I'd like you to weigh in on the new thread. Are these many Muslims must misguided regarding martyrdom?
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3898.0
......... when they were cursed to be ruled by other nations and the finality of prophethood by Muhammed because I have studied scripture. I went to an Anglican school from the impressionable age of 9 years old. I studied various texts and the doctrines of religious and political leaders from Ghandi to Nelson Mandela. The most complete most beautiful most up to date relevant and that has presented the world with the most benefit irrespective of what they believe is Islam.
Come on Muj, if that were really the true, why do you suppose your religion would have to prevent followers from leaving Islam, through the threat of death by execution, for doing so?
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/muslim_persecution_of_christians.htm#death_penalty_apostasy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iL4upLajJSc
There is one God your lord Allah. The creator and sustainer of all creation. No one is worthy of worship but Allah
Muhammad is the person chosen to be the messenger to bring the truth after the deviation of The words of Allah by man. I cannot reject the Gospels and scripture outright but as it is tainted by human hands and open to connecture and sceculation i judge as Allah commanded us and follow the book of guidance the Quran
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While you may have been taught to parrot that, you must reject the whole subject of the Gospel, and reject Jesus as a prophet, for His having prophesied His own crucifixion death and resurrection - the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel.
Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm
No I reject the speculation the inferences , the incorrect translation, the opinions and the blatant lies of self professed experts.
I researched all the Prophets of GOD from a very young age, I asked questions, I separated the liars from the speculators, the zionists from the Jews from the Children of Israel, I took the time and trouble to seek guidance from GOD, my lord and your and your Lord, the Lord of all the worlds and Islam is exactly what the world needed when it was revealed to Muhammad and exactly as prophesied.
Luke is foretelling of the Prophet will fulfill the Law of Moses by Muhammad, and God has opened our (Muslim) understanding of the Scriptures, again it does not say that Jesus died for your sins it says go and preach repentance HIS Name (GODS name) amongst all nations.
DO not twist the words of the God as given to us by the PIOUS, that is the work of conjectures and liars.
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Should we be surprised that you did not answer (http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1790.msg15874#msg15874) as to why Muhammad's "Allah's" revelation to Muhammad is so weak, he would have to force people to continue to follow him, with the threat of murder by execution for "apostasy", for exercising their God-given free will and human right to self-determination, by leaving Islam?
Iran – illegal (death penalty)[13][14][15]
Egypt – illegal (3 years' imprisonment)[15]
Pakistan – illegal (death penalty[15] since 2007)
United Arab Emirates – illegal (3 years' imprisonment, flogging)[16]
Somalia – illegal (death penalty)[17]
Afghanistan – illegal (death penalty, although the U.S. and other coalition members have put pressure that has prevented recent executions)[18][19]
Saudi Arabia – illegal (death penalty, although there have been no recently reported executions)[15][20]
Sudan – illegal (death penalty, although there have only been recent reports of torture, and not of execution)[21][22]
Qatar – illegal (death penalty)[23]
Yemen – illegal (death penalty)[23]
Malaysia – illegal in five of 13 states (fine, imprisonment, and flogging)[24][25]
Mauritania – illegal (death penalty if still apostate after 3 days)[26]
Jordan – possibly illegal (fine, jail, child custody loss, marriage annulment) although officials claim otherwise, convictions are recorded for apostasy[28][29][30]
Oman – legal in criminal code, but according to the family code, a father can lose custody of his child[31]
Death penalty for leaving, is the hallmark of a dangerous cult - like the Mafia.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/muslim_persecution_of_christians.htm#death_penalty_apostasy
That the false prophet Muhammad's alter-ego "Allah", had to propagate his lies through the murder by the sword, and the threat of death, for 1400 years, as in Muhammad's own day:
Ishaq:462/Tabari VIII:30 "The Jews said, 'We will never abandon the Torah or exchange it for the Qur'an.' Asad said, 'Since you reject this proposal of mine, then kill your children and your wives and go out to Muhammad and his Companions as men who brandish swords, leaving behind no impediments to worry you. If you die, you shall have left nothing behind; if you win you shall find other women and children.' The Jews replied, 'Why would we kill these poor ones? What would be the good of living after them?'"
http://petewaldo.com/banu_qurayza_massacre.htm
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Please begin with the prior post.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1790.msg15878#msg15878
While you may have been taught to parrot that, you must reject the whole subject of the Gospel, and reject Jesus as a prophet, for His having prophesied His own crucifixion death and resurrection - the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel.
Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm
No I reject the speculation the inferences , the incorrect translation, the opinions and the blatant lies of self professed experts.
That's why I quoted Jesus, regarding the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel, as the fulfillment of old covenant prophecy.
Do you instead believe that a Muslim can absolve his own sin, through his own shed blood, and even intercede for 70 of his relatives?
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3898.0
I researched all the Prophets of GOD from a very young age, I asked questions, I separated the liars from the speculators, the zionists from the Jews from the Children of Israel,...........
But doesn't it make you wonder when the Ku Klux Klan, Louis Farrakan and his "Nation of Islam", communist Soviets, white supremacists, Nazis, skinheads, and anti-Semites of all stripes join you in anti-Zionism, against Israeli Jews, Israeli Christians and Israeli non-Muslim Arabs?
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2795.0
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Please begin with the initial post in this group.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1790.msg15878#msg15878
........... I took the time and trouble to seek guidance from GOD, my lord and your and your Lord, the Lord of all the worlds and Islam is exactly what the world needed when it was revealed to Muhammad and exactly as prophesied.
Luke is foretelling of the Prophet will fulfill the Law of Moses by Muhammad, and God has opened our (Muslim) understanding of the Scriptures, .........
Muhammad tried to fool the Quraish into believing the same nonsense, just a little before he beheaded those innocent Jewish farm boys, along with their dads and grandpas, and he and his boys had their way with their little sisters, moms and grandmothers.
The scriptures are not hard to understand if you open your eyes to see. Wishing things were true by parroting the empty words of semi-literate Greek sophist styled entertainers, won't magically make them true, Muj.
John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
And again in Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, [that] every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/comforter_paraclete.htm
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/islam_in_the_bible.htm#moses_prophecy_muhammad
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Please begin with the initial post in this group.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1790.msg15878#msg15878
......... again it does not say that Jesus died for your sins ...........
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
You claim to have been raised in the scriptures, yet continue to demonstrate abject ignorance to the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel, Muj. The sin atoning blood of His Son is the very expression and manifestation of the love that God has for us.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
1John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. 8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. 9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. 10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/the_love_of_god.htm
Who does Muhammad's "Allah" love?
Quran Surah 61:4 Truly allah loves those who fight in His Cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure.
You reject the shed blood of the Lamb of God, even while Muslims are taught that the first drop of blood shed by a Muslim so-called "martyr", who dies inadvertently while attacking non-Muslims during imperialistic conquest, can intercede for 70 of his relatives. The reason I asked you to weigh in on that thread is to help you understand Muj. The blood of the sinless Lamb of God, or the blood of an average Joe Muslim murderous attacker, who had his way with the women of the vanquished? Which would you choose Muj?
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3898.0
.......... it says go and preach repentance HIS Name (GODS name) amongst all nations.
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Please begin with the initial post in this group.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1790.msg15878#msg15878
......... again it does not say that Jesus died for your sins ...........
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
You claim to have been raised in the scriptures, yet continue to demonstrate abject ignorance to them, along with the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel, Muj. The sin atoning blood of His Son is the very expression and manifestation of the love that God has for us.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
1John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. 8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. 9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. 10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/the_love_of_god.htm
Who does Muhammad's "Allah" love?
Quran Surah 61:4 Truly allah loves those who fight in His Cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure.
You reject the shed blood of the Lamb of God, even while Muslims are taught that the first drop of blood shed by a Muslim so-called "martyr", who dies inadvertently while attacking non-Muslims during imperialistic conquest, qualifies him to intercede for 70 of his relatives. A murderer who dies inadvertently while killing others, who are defending themselves and their homes and their communities, from the murderous imperialistic onslaught of Islamic Jihad.
The reason I asked you to weigh in on that thread is to help you understand Muj. The blood of the sinless Lamb of God who was sent specifically for propitiation of our sins, or the blood of an average Joe Muslim murderous imperialistic soldier, who perhaps had even forced himself on the wife of, the husband he had beheaded earlier?
http://petewaldo.com/banu_qurayza_massacre.htm#farm_boys
Which would you choose as your intercessor Muj?
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3898.0
In other words, the reason that it is impossible for you to understand the martyrdom of Jesus Christ, is because Satan through his messenger Muhammad, forced his followers get it exactly backwards.
Believing that a suicide bomber, who specifically targets and murders innocent men, women and children because of their beliefs, are the martyrs - when it is obvious to civilized people that it is those innocent men, women and children that are the actually the martyrs, having been murdered for their beliefs. For their faith in something other than Muhammad alone.
.......... it says go and preach repentance HIS Name (GODS name) amongst all nations.
Read it again Muj. Did you think you wouldn't get caught partially quoting, to suit your convenience?
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
The old covenant saints had only one name through which to worship God - YHWH pronounced Yahweh (though other titles) - before Jesus ushered in the new covenant.
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
So whose name today during this new covenant?
Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Here's why:
Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Our ONE mediator and intercessor is Jesus, NOT Muhammad.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/intercession.htm
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And let's not forget that nearly 700 years before Jesus came to earth, the prophet Isaiah declared by the word of God, "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel."
Then, as the hearald of God declared to Joseph just prior to Jesus' birth, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,†which is translated, “God with us.â€
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Muj, please begin with the initial post in this group.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1790.msg15878#msg15878
And let's not forget that nearly 700 years before Jesus came to earth, the prophet Isaiah declared by the word of God, "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel."
Then, as the hearald of God declared to Joseph just prior to Jesus' birth, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,†which is translated, “God with us.â€
Indeed bro.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/isaiah_53.htm
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Muj, I thought of you as I embellished and reorganized this page this morning:
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/blasphemy_laws.htm
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Muj, I thought of you as I embellished and reorganized this page this morning:
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/blasphemy_laws.htm
Thank you for the link on your opinion and the opinion of the Scripture writers. I have not found any blasphemy in islam, the Scripture says that God says "Hear Ye O Israel, the Lord your God is one. No where does it state the words "Jesus died for your sins", thats pure conjecture and conclusions dran from inaccurate translations of the opinion of unknown authors of the verses the new Testament.
You do realize that the opinions and the translations of the opinions (and I am judging by: "what is therein") is not only ambitious but subject to interpretation by any Scholar as no standard like the Science of Hadith is in place.
You do realize that the opinions of the what was said by prophet Jesus the Messiah born of Mary (peace be upon them both) was an individual response to a political circumstance that was rapidly changing the political landscape of the time.
The writers therefore needed to construct a set of koine greek writings that would conform to the need of the populace. This cross pollination of cultures Roman, Greek, Jewish, African Egyptian and Arabian, and even Yemeni shaped the words and opinions of the manuscripts you now call the scripture (by the way the biblios and scripture translates as Book and writings in modern day english and it is appropriate titles and it is not the Injeel of God sent to Jesus (peace be upon him.
So the Blasphemy issue (political approach excluded) is a matter of who God is. GOD is ALLAH your lord and my Lord, the Lord of the entire creation.
The LORD your God is ALLAH is one Unique he begets not nor is he begotten, and everything besides this belief is blasphemy.
Any intelligent human being will exclude the behavior of crowds and cultures that may or may not be acting out of self interest or political persuasion when inciting violence or riots, That is not the behavior of an educated muslim. A few thousand deviates does not represent 1.8 billion Muslims. even the few thousand amongst the Hundred Million Muslims in Nigeria does not display popular belief in Nigeria.
Be rational, if that was the popular belief amongst all Muslims there would be no one left that differed with them as there are only about 10% of the population of Nigeria that is not Muslim. It could be Jealousy, hatred, revenge, petty rivalry and disputes that gives rise to family feuds and that media feeds off to blacken Islam just as your frail attempts.
I read all your posts with an open mind and I try to at least see where you coming from, until your unsubstantiated claims backed by weak scripture quotes that are taken out of context and misinterpreted are presented as the Truth.
You have to start with correcting your Belief repeat over and over that "The LORD YOUR GOD IS ONE" as the scripture says, then reread the entire scripture with this in mind and exclude opinions even those of scripture writers, their words may have been altered by over zealous pious unwitting scripture translators.
Thank you
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Do you understand why you are always so afraid to reply to prior posts Muj? Why you always ignore them and fail to respond? It is the light of the truth of the Gospel my friend. It is the Word of God.
Hbr 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
That's why you had to ignore my several requests, to begin with the first reply and work your way down.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1790.msg15878#msg15878
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Do you understand why you are always so afraid to reply to prior posts Muj? Why you always ignore them and fail to respond? It is the light of the truth of the Gospel my friend. It is the Word of God.
Hbr 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
That's why you had to ignore my several requests, to begin with the first reply and work your way down.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1790.msg15878#msg15878
My apologies Peter, if my enthusiasm and zeal overtakes my etiquette and proper posting manners. I will be more diligent in answering the questions and respond to posts properly as best I can my old habits aside. please forgive me for any transgressions.
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Do you understand why you are always so afraid to reply to prior posts Muj? Why you always ignore them and fail to respond? It is the light of the truth of the Gospel my friend. It is the Word of God.
Hbr 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
That's why you had to ignore my several requests, to begin with the first reply and work your way down.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1790.msg15878#msg15878
My apologies Peter, if my enthusiasm and zeal overtakes my etiquette and proper posting manners. I will be more diligent in answering the questions and respond to posts properly as best I can my old habits aside. please forgive me for any transgressions.
No problem my friend. I'll look forward to your replies. Particularly since I am looking forward to responding to your prior post.
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And let's not forget that nearly 700 years before Jesus came to earth, the prophet Isaiah declared by the word of God, "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel."
Then, as the hearald of God declared to Joseph just prior to Jesus' birth, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,†which is translated, “God with us.â€
I dont dispute the Birth of Nabi Eesa, Mesiah born of Mary, the sprit of ALLAH, and that it was foretold probably many times that people did not take heed of as the coming of prophet Muammad was foretold and People did not take heed of it. There were three tribes of Jews waiting for the Comforter in Madina. So they heeded the Scripture.
Scripture is correct in saying "She will bear a son and in hum is a holy spirit meaning that he will save his people (the Jews?) but the Jews rebelled? his people?
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And let's not forget that nearly 700 years before Jesus came to earth, the prophet Isaiah declared by the word of God, "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel."
Then, as the hearald of God declared to Joseph just prior to Jesus' birth, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,†which is translated, “God with us.â€
I dont dispute the Birth of Nabi Eesa, Mesiah born of Mary, the sprit of ALLAH, and that it was foretold probably many times............
Jesus was indeed foretold, just as was His purpose, which is the whole subject of the Gospel. Remission of sin through the shed blood of the sinless Messiah, the sacrifice of the Passover Lamb of God.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3080.0
The most important part of the post that ExMil even highlighted in blue for you.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3390.0
Isaiah 53:5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter.........
12 .....he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
More Jews are brought to a life in Jesus Christ through that Old Testament passage than perhaps any other.
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........... that people did not take heed of as the coming of prophet Muammad was foretold and People did not take heed of it. There were three tribes of Jews waiting for the Comforter in Madina.
Never realizing that the Comforter - which is the Holy Spirit that was sent in Jesus' name - has been with us ever since Jesus left us. Jesus IN us, and we in Him.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Can't you see that's why Satan, through his messenger, fooled you into believing that to pray in Jesus' name, would constitute a sin worse than child rape, or cold-blooded mass murder? Specifically to prevent you from connecting with the Holy Spirit.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/comforter_paraclete.htm
At least when Muhammad beheaded those innocent, peaceful, faithful, Jewish farm boys in Madina, along with their dads and grandpas, most of them likely went on to be with our great God and Father Yahweh.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm
Their little sisters, moms and grandmothers weren't so fortunate.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm#captive_abuse
So they heeded the Scripture.
Indeed they did. They knew who to fear, that being YHWH, rather than Muhammad and his alter-ego, the Quraish pagan's deity "Allah":
Ishaq:462/Tabari VIII:30 "The Jews said, 'We will never abandon the Torah or exchange it for the Qur'an.' Asad said, 'Since you reject this proposal of mine, then kill your children and your wives and go out to Muhammad and his Companions as men who brandish swords, leaving behind no impediments to worry you. If you die, you shall have left nothing behind; if you win you shall find other women and children.' The Jews replied, 'Why would we kill these poor ones? What would be the good of living after them?'"
Those peaceful, faithful farmers were more than willing to be martyred, and loose their lives in this world, rather than to be separated from God forever, by following Muhammad and prostrating themselves toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca. Their ancestors and a golden calf had aptly taught them that lesson.
Scripture is correct in saying "She will bear a son and in hum is a holy spirit meaning that he will save his people (the Jews?) but the Jews rebelled? his people?
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
There is only one way to believe in Jesus, my friend, and that is to believe in the precious gift of His shed blood, that saves us from dying in sin. The whole subject of the Gospel. Without believing in His shed blood, nothing else you choose to believe about Jesus matters, at all.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm
-
........... that people did not take heed of as the coming of prophet Muammad was foretold and People did not take heed of it. There were three tribes of Jews waiting for the Comforter in Madina.
Never realizing that the Comforter - which is the Holy Spirit that was sent in Jesus' name - has been with us ever since Jesus left us. Jesus IN us, and we in Him.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Can't you see that's why Satan, through his messenger, fooled you into believing that to pray in Jesus' name, would constitute a sin worse than child rape, or cold-blooded mass murder? Specifically to prevent you from connecting with the Holy Spirit.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/comforter_paraclete.htm
At least when Muhammad beheaded those innocent, peaceful, faithful, Jewish farm boys in Madina, along with their dads and grandpas, most of them likely went on to be with our great God and Father Yahweh.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm
Their little sisters, moms and grandmothers weren't so fortunate.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm#captive_abuse
So they heeded the Scripture.
Indeed they did. They knew who to fear, that being YHWH, rather than Muhammad and his alter-ego, the Quraish pagan's deity "Allah":
Ishaq:462/Tabari VIII:30 "The Jews said, 'We will never abandon the Torah or exchange it for the Qur'an.' Asad said, 'Since you reject this proposal of mine, then kill your children and your wives and go out to Muhammad and his Companions as men who brandish swords, leaving behind no impediments to worry you. If you die, you shall have left nothing behind; if you win you shall find other women and children.' The Jews replied, 'Why would we kill these poor ones? What would be the good of living after them?'"
Those peaceful, faithful farmers were more than willing to be martyred, and loose their lives in this world, rather than to be separated from God forever, by following Muhammad and prostrating themselves toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca. Their ancestors and a golden calf had aptly taught them that lesson.
Scripture is correct in saying "She will bear a son and in hum is a holy spirit meaning that he will save his people (the Jews?) but the Jews rebelled? his people?
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
There is only one way to believe in Jesus, my friend, and that is to believe in the precious gift of His shed blood, that saves us from dying in sin. The whole subject of the Gospel. Without believing in His shed blood, nothing else you choose to believe about Jesus matters, at all.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm
In order to follow what you believe I would have to reject, Hear Ye O Children of Israel The Lord your God Is one?
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In order to follow what you believe I would have to reject, Hear Ye O Children of Israel The Lord your God Is one?
Mujaheed, did God speak the world into existence?
What if God was so great that he could, with his words, say something, and it was so? Do you believe that?
What if God was so great that by the Spirit of his word, he could speak one man into existence?
What if God, by his great word, could indwell a man with his word? Do you think God could not do something like that?
What if God's word (his speech) WAS a man AND the spirit in that man? (Just like the 'first Adam' who was made alive by God's word)
What if Jesus was God's actual speech... when God's "mouth" moves and his words come out, it causes something very real and very physical to happen (like creation). What if God sent his word to earth to save mankind from their sin? What if God promised (by his words) an atoning blood sacrifice that would end all sacrifices. And then, by his word, that was accomplished. What if God allowed the outworking of his speech to be placed on a cross and then PROVED his word was ALIVE by defeating death and bringing his words out of the grave? Do you think God is greater than Death?
That is Jesus. He is literally the word of God. God's speech. His action. When God wills something good we see it come out through his words. That is why John says that through Jesus (God's word) everything was created.
God desires to save you, Muj, by his spoken Word... Jesus. Not by your works. Because only God's Word has life. Your works do not have life. Your works have no speech that can create, your works have nothing that can impart life. To deny Jesus is to deny the very words of God... that is why the scriptures say that when you reject Jesus, you reject God's promise of life. Because his word is life.
Muj, if you poured out your very soul to write a love letter to someone, and they took your words at face value, would they have a picture of you? Could they show what you wrote to someone else and say, "here is a picture of Muj." Jesus is God just as much as your words are you. Can you really separate you from your word? Are your words not your heart and soul? Are your words not the way you impart love to those around you?
Tell me, Muj, in a legal transaction that is binding, what is required, a promise by your word, or just your mere presence? If you offered a wordless contract to someone they would laugh at you because, it would be worthless. The words in a contract bind your very being to the transaction.
Can you really separate God from his word? It is by his word that we know how to worship him. When you worship him according to his word, are you assigning a partner to God? No? Jesus is God's word, we worship God by his begotten word.
-
........... that people did not take heed of as the coming of prophet Muammad was foretold and People did not take heed of it. There were three tribes of Jews waiting for the Comforter in Madina.
Never realizing that the Comforter - which is the Holy Spirit that was sent in Jesus' name - has been with us ever since Jesus left us. Jesus IN us, and we in Him.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Can't you see that's why Satan, through his messenger, fooled you into believing that to pray in Jesus' name, would constitute a sin worse than child rape, or cold-blooded mass murder? Specifically to prevent you from connecting with the Holy Spirit.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/comforter_paraclete.htm
At least when Muhammad beheaded those innocent, peaceful, faithful, Jewish farm boys in Madina, along with their dads and grandpas, most of them likely went on to be with our great God and Father Yahweh.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm
Their little sisters, moms and grandmothers weren't so fortunate.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm#captive_abuse
So they heeded the Scripture.
Indeed they did. They knew who to fear, that being YHWH, rather than Muhammad and his alter-ego, the Quraish pagan's deity "Allah":
Ishaq:462/Tabari VIII:30 "The Jews said, 'We will never abandon the Torah or exchange it for the Qur'an.' Asad said, 'Since you reject this proposal of mine, then kill your children and your wives and go out to Muhammad and his Companions as men who brandish swords, leaving behind no impediments to worry you. If you die, you shall have left nothing behind; if you win you shall find other women and children.' The Jews replied, 'Why would we kill these poor ones? What would be the good of living after them?'"
Those peaceful, faithful farmers were more than willing to be martyred, and loose their lives in this world, rather than to be separated from God forever, by following Muhammad and prostrating themselves toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca. Their ancestors and a golden calf had aptly taught them that lesson.
Scripture is correct in saying "She will bear a son and in hum is a holy spirit meaning that he will save his people (the Jews?) but the Jews rebelled? his people?
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
There is only one way to believe in Jesus, my friend, and that is to believe in the precious gift of His shed blood, that saves us from dying in sin. The whole subject of the Gospel. Without believing in His shed blood, nothing else you choose to believe about Jesus matters, at all.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm
In order to follow what you believe I would have to reject, Hear Ye O Children of Israel The Lord your God Is one?
Of course not Muj. God IS ONE. Just as the Gospel teaches:
Mark 12:29 ... The Lord our God is one Lord: ... 32 ... for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
Jesus Christ is the way YHWH chose to manifest, that is reveal, Himself to mankind. The same way God revealed Himself to Abraham - in the form of a man:
Genesis 18:1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
Please note the verses that follow at this link:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2358.0
This is how His revelation in the Gospel closes:
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
God gave you the free will to reject Him or to ask Him to come into your heart and life, through the way He chose to manifest Himself to the world. However the most important thing - without which nothing else you believe about God matters - is that you understand that Jesus Christ was manifest to the world with one purpose; to save us all from sin through faith in the blood that He shed for us all. That needs to be your focus Muj - the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm
Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
That WAY does not include prostrating yourself to the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca five times a day. And even worse, squandering money that you could otherwise be giving to the poor, to travel to Mecca and march around the Quraish's black stone idol, the way the Arabian pagans did before Muhammad was ever born. In a town that did not exist prior to the 4th century AD, even according to Muslim Eastern History teachers.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2859.0
Muhammad even has his followers so turned around, that they actually believe that if they shed their own blood, while in the act of killing others, that they receive forgiveness for their owns sins.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm
Sahih Muslim B 20 #4681 The tradition has been narrated on the authority of 'Abdullah b. Qais. He heard it from his father who, while facing the enemy, reported that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Surely, the gates of paradise are under the shadows of the swords. A man in a shabby condition got up and said; Abu Musa, did you hear the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say this? He said: Yes. (The narrator said): He returned to his friends and said: I greet you (a farewell greeting). Then he broke the sheath of his sword, threw it away, advanced with his (naked) sword towards the enemy and fought (them) with it until he was slain. (also B 19 #4314)
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3898.0
Do you really believe that any sort of good God would reveal Himself through a man responsible for beheading innocent Jewish farm boys, and other such cruelty and evil?
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm
The question for Muhammad's followers is not whether an intercessor, but which intercessor, you want to trust your eternal life to.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/intercession.htm
Regarding your repeated blasphemous claims against the Scriptures, of "corruption":
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/index.htm#bible_corruption
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Your view of Nabi Eesa masih born of Mary is nothing but conjecture and speculation it is not from the Injeel of Nabi Eesa nor the Torah of Nabi moods nor the Zabayr of Nabi Dawood. It has no authority or authenticity. The opinions of unknown scribes deviated mankind from the worship of Allah.
Jesus is a Muslim just like all the prophets are Muslim. Ex Mil I hav heard that version of Jesus since I was 8 years old and it is not in the least plausible as billions of people have already proven that it is nothing but the political rantings of the Nicean Council. It has no bearing on the truth of the prophets.
Who wrote it???? We don't know. Who translated Gods words and interpreted it for the world???? We don't know the name of the author
Did Jesus give anyone permission to write a Gospel. ??? Least of which Paul or Saul of Tarsus. I don't believe that the desciples or Paul was deviated I believe that the the deviation occurred with the advent of the Nicean council that debated the ver words you wrote for a long time before a body of hand picked clergy voted on the divinity thus distorting interpretations of the scripture. Thus all scripture was written in the doctrine of the Nicean council. Everything else was rejected and burnt.
That is the very reason Prophet Muhammad as sent to save mankind from the dark ages created by the deviant ores. Read the history following the ascension of Jesus peace be upon him. You find that the world was rapidly moving towards a very dark period.
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Your view of Nabi Eesa masih born of Mary is nothing but conjecture and speculation it is not from the Injeel of Nabi Eesa nor the Torah of Nabi moods nor the Zabayr of Nabi Dawood. It has no authority or authenticity. The opinions of unknown scribes deviated mankind from the worship of Allah.
Jesus is a Muslim just like all the prophets are Muslim. Ex Mil I hav heard that version of Jesus since I was 8 years old and it is not in the least plausible as billions of people have already proven that it is nothing but the political rantings of the Nicean Council. It has no bearing on the truth of the prophets.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3910.0
Who wrote it???? We don't know. Who translated Gods words and interpreted it for the world???? We don't know the name of the author
Rather than idling asking questions, why don't you spend a little time investigating the subject? Try some of videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIAkxB-EH5E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8cY3T-SCTk
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/#bible_corruption
Did Jesus give anyone permission to write a Gospel. ??? Least of which Paul or Saul of Tarsus. I don't believe that the desciples or Paul was deviated I believe that the the deviation occurred with the advent of the Nicean council that debated the ver words you wrote for a long time before a body of hand picked clergy voted on the divinity thus distorting interpretations of the scripture. Thus all scripture was written in the doctrine of the Nicean council. Everything else was rejected and burnt.
That is the very reason Prophet Muhammad as sent to save mankind from the dark ages created by the deviant ores. Read the history following the ascension of Jesus peace be upon him. You find that the world was rapidly moving towards a very dark period.
Your rejecting of the Holy Scriptures is the whole point Muj. You must reject all of the prophets and witnesses as revealed in the 1600 year record of revelation of YHWH to mankind - and reject the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel - because you follow Muhammad alone. So don't delude yourself, or try to fool others, into believing that you worship anyone other than Muhammad"s reprobate and self-serving alter-ego "Allah", alone.
Simply further casually blaspheming the scriptures, so you can continue to follow Muhammad alone, did not answer to a single point in the post Muj. Let alone that your claims suggest your own "messenger" was a foolish liar about the Bible, according to you:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/
I'll repost the points individually. Please respond in order.
-
In order to follow what you believe I would have to reject, Hear Ye O Children of Israel The Lord your God Is one?
Of course not Muj. God IS ONE. Just as the Gospel teaches:
Mark 12:29 ... The Lord our God is one Lord: ... 32 ... for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
Jesus Christ is the way YHWH chose to manifest, that is reveal, Himself to mankind. The same way God revealed Himself to Abraham - in the form of a man:
Genesis 18:1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
Please note the verses that follow at this link:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2358.0
-
This is how His revelation in the Gospel closes:
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
God gave you the free will to reject Him or to ask Him to come into your heart and life, through the way He chose to manifest Himself to the world. However the most important thing - without which nothing else you believe about God matters - is that you understand that Jesus Christ was manifest to the world with one purpose; to save us all from sin through faith in the blood that He shed for us all. That needs to be your focus Muj - the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm
Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
That WAY does not include prostrating yourself to the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca five times a day. And even worse, squandering money that you could otherwise be giving to the poor, to travel to Mecca and march around the Quraish's black stone idol, the way the Arabian pagans did before Muhammad was ever born. In a town that did not exist prior to the 4th century AD, even according to Muslim Eastern History teachers.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2859.0
-
Muhammad even has his followers so turned around, that they actually believe that if they shed their own blood, while in the act of killing others, that they receive forgiveness for their owns sins.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm
Sahih Muslim B 20 #4681 The tradition has been narrated on the authority of 'Abdullah b. Qais. He heard it from his father who, while facing the enemy, reported that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Surely, the gates of paradise are under the shadows of the swords. A man in a shabby condition got up and said; Abu Musa, did you hear the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say this? He said: Yes. (The narrator said): He returned to his friends and said: I greet you (a farewell greeting). Then he broke the sheath of his sword, threw it away, advanced with his (naked) sword towards the enemy and fought (them) with it until he was slain. (also B 19 #4314)
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3898.0
Do you really believe that any sort of good God would reveal Himself through a man responsible for beheading innocent Jewish farm boys, and other such cruelty and evil?
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm
-
Scripture is correct in saying "She will bear a son and in hum is a holy spirit meaning that he will save his people (the Jews?) but the Jews rebelled? his people?
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
There is only one way to believe in Jesus, my friend, and that is to believe in the precious gift of His shed blood, that saves us from dying in sin. The whole subject of the Gospel. Without believing in His shed blood, nothing else you choose to believe about Jesus matters, at all.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm
-
Now the points you ignored from an earlier post.
........... that people did not take heed of as the coming of prophet Muammad was foretold and People did not take heed of it. There were three tribes of Jews waiting for the Comforter in Madina.
Never realizing that the Comforter - which is the Holy Spirit that was sent in Jesus' name - has been with us ever since Jesus left us. Jesus IN us, and we in Him.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Can't you see that's why Satan, through his messenger, fooled you into believing that to pray in Jesus' name, would constitute a sin worse than child rape, or cold-blooded mass murder? Specifically to prevent you from connecting with the Holy Spirit.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/comforter_paraclete.htm
At least when Muhammad beheaded those innocent, peaceful, faithful, Jewish farm boys in Madina, along with their dads and grandpas, most of them likely went on to be with our great God and Father Yahweh.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm
Their little sisters, moms and grandmothers weren't so fortunate.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm#captive_abuse
-
So they heeded the Scripture.
Indeed they did. They knew who to fear, that being YHWH, rather than Muhammad and his alter-ego, the Quraish pagan's deity "Allah":
Ishaq:462/Tabari VIII:30 "The Jews said, 'We will never abandon the Torah or exchange it for the Qur'an.' Asad said, 'Since you reject this proposal of mine, then kill your children and your wives and go out to Muhammad and his Companions as men who brandish swords, leaving behind no impediments to worry you. If you die, you shall have left nothing behind; if you win you shall find other women and children.' The Jews replied, 'Why would we kill these poor ones? What would be the good of living after them?'"
Those peaceful, faithful farmers were more than willing to be martyred, and loose their lives in this world, rather than to be separated from God forever, by following Muhammad and prostrating themselves toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca. Their ancestors and a golden calf had aptly taught them that lesson.
-
Scripture is correct in saying "She will bear a son and in hum is a holy spirit meaning that he will save his people (the Jews?) but the Jews rebelled? his people?
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
There is only one way to believe in Jesus, my friend, and that is to believe in the precious gift of His shed blood, that saves us from dying in sin. The whole subject of the Gospel. Without believing in His shed blood, nothing else you choose to believe about Jesus matters, at all.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm
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Jesus is not God. Jesus is a prophet of God. A special Prophet with an incomplete mission that is why he has to return to complete his mission. Kill Dajjal (anti Christ ) bring a period of peace to the world before it ends. Come to tell the people of the world he is a Muslim and never ever said the things written about him. So no I don't accept the Nicean Council versions no I don't believe the speculation and conjecture of scribes and Pharisees and yes I am judging by what is written therein
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You ignored posts again, and responded with a bunch of 7th - 10th century superstitious Arabian fable, instead of answers. If you do go back and address each point in turn (as we extend the courtesy of doing for you), every post you put in the forum will be sent to spam.
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So they heeded the Scripture.
Indeed they did. They knew who to fear, that being YHWH, rather than Muhammad and his alter-ego, the Quraish pagan's deity "Allah":
Ishaq:462/Tabari VIII:30 "The Jews said, 'We will never abandon the Torah or exchange it for the Qur'an.' Asad said, 'Since you reject this proposal of mine, then kill your children and your wives and go out to Muhammad and his Companions as men who brandish swords, leaving behind no impediments to worry you. If you die, you shall have left nothing behind; if you win you shall find other women and children.' The Jews replied, 'Why would we kill these poor ones? What would be the good of living after them?'"
Those peaceful, faithful farmers were more than willing to be martyred, and loose their lives in this world, rather than to be separated from God forever, by following Muhammad and prostrating themselves toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca. Their ancestors and a golden calf had aptly taught them that lesson.
YOUR REFERENCE IS INCORRECT: Please have the decency to actual read the Hadiths from the Books that They written in. Do not copy and paste fabrications posted on the web. I have detected that most if not all of the translations cited in this forum is mistranslations with no tafseer.
You are not reading the Hadith and the Quran from the Books itself, MORE PROOF OF THE GENERAL EVIL PERVADING THE JEWS AND CHRISTIANS.
`YOUR ENTIRE HISTORY IS BIASED IN FAVOR OF EUROPEANS, THE LIES ABOUT SPAIN IS ASTOUNDING AND ONLY BELIEVED BY IGNORAMUS.
As far as Jews fearing God the Bible disagrees with you
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! (From the KJV Bible, Matthew 23:37)"
"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (From the KJV Bible, Matthew 21:43)"
"You have heard these things; look at them all. Will you not admit them? "From now on I will tell you of new things, of hidden things unknown to you. They are created now, and not long ago; you have not heard of them before today. So you cannot say, 'Yes, I knew of them.' You have neither heard nor understood; from of old your ear has not been open. Well do I know how treacherous you are; you were called a rebel from birth. For my own name's sake I delay my wrath; for the sake of my praise I hold it back from you, so as not to cut you off. (From the NIV Bible, Isaiah 48:6-9)"
"So I will disgrace the dignitaries of your temple, and I will consign Jacob to destruction and Israel to scorn. (From the NIV Bible, Isaiah 43:28)"
"But now, all you who light fires and provide yourselves with flaming torches, go, walk in the light of your fires and of the torches you have set ablaze. This is what you shall receive from my hand: You will lie down in torment. (From the NIV Bible, Isaiah 50:11)"
WHAT ARE YOU DEFENDING THE JEWS FOR????? WHY ARE YOU BUYING THE LIES OF THE ZIONISTS????
Why Ibn Ishaq can't be trusted/The Problems with Ibn Ishaq
"The Life of Muhammad" by Ibn Ishaq has been quoted by many critics of Islam. They get excited when Ibn Ishaq paints a bad picture of Prophet Muhammad and use it in their writings to attack Islam. Although Ibn Ishaq was the earliest of the traditionists to write a biography of the events that pertained to the time of Muhammad (p) there are several severe problems with his writings. As Bassam Zawadi says" just because something is early doesn't mean it is true". He has a good point. Not everyone back then was reliable and honest. Ibn Ishaq was known to be careless in him collecting stories about the Prophet, etc.
Several respected Muslim theologians rightly reject his (Ibn Ishaq's) authority for several reasons:
(A) That he was a Shi'i favouring Ali over all the other contenders to the Khilfa
(B) That he held the view that Man has free will, which is kind of contrary to the Quranic perception.
© That his Isnads (chains of transmissions) were defective, ie not 'iron' tight by naming all the reporters, which is important because this determines whether the transmitter of the story is trustworthy or not. Ibn Ishaq was not an eye witness to any of the events of Prophet Muhammad's life. Ibn Ishaq was writing about 150 years after the Prophet's death so this is very important. In Islamic sciences in order for a report of the Prophet (peace be on him) to be true is if the isnad is solid or not.
(D) He used reports of traditions gathered from Jewish sources. Jews made up a lot of false stories/legends of Prophet Muhammad (just like the early Christians living outside of Palestine made up a lot of myths and legends of Jesus and put them in the Gospels). Making up stories and legends about the Prophet are unnacceptable in the eyes of many Islamic scholars.
(E) Ibn Ishaq was (for lack of better term) a "suck up" to the Jews of Arabia. He said several complimentary reports of the Jews of Arabia, despite the fact that the Jews of Arabia were constatnly fighting with the Arabs and were charging interest when loaning money. The Jews of Madinah were constatly plotting againist the Prophet Muhammad. They were always trying to undermine his authority. In fact they sided with the Makkans in order to assinate the Prophet.
(F) Most important of all, his report about Laylat al Qadr (the first revelation), contradicts all the hadith versions. The hadith collectors Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud, etc were more careful in collecting their hadith (their chains of transmission).
(G) There are several stories in Ibn Ishaq which are never found in the hadith. The reason why is because several hadith collectors such as Bukhari-- did not trust Ibn Ishaq.
Ibn Ishaq as an author was in fact subjected to devastating attacks by scholars, contemporary or later, on two particular accounts. One was his uncritical inclusion in his Sira of so much spurious or forged poetry [7] ;the other his unquestioning acceptance of just such a story as that of the slaughter of Banu Qurayza [8]. It gets worse for Ibn Ishaq though. First let's talk about what Imam Malk thought of Ibn Ishaq.
Malik bin Anas Bin Malik bin Abu Amir Al-Asbahi (715-801 C.E.) or Imam Malik-- lived cloest in the time to the life of Prophet Muhammad of all the collectors of the hadith (Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud, etc). He was born more than 80 years after the death of the Prophet.
Imam Malik was a complier of a respected hadith collection, called Muwatta. Imam Malik was a hadith scholar. Imam Malik called Ibn Ishaq a liar and an imposter for writing false stories about Prophet Muhammad. Imam Malik has said that Ibn Ishaq "reports traditions on the authority of the Jews". Kadhdhab and Dajjal min al-dajajila. Uyun al-athar, I, 16-7. In his valuable introduction Ibn Sayyid al-Nas provides a wide-ranging survey of the controversial views on Ibn Ishaq. In his full introduction to the Gottingen edition of the Sira, Wustenfeld in turn draws extensively on Ibn Sayyid al-Nas.
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Your unrelated posts regarding the Council of Nicea and the Son of God have been moved to the appropriate thread:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3916.msg16204#msg16204
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So they heeded the Scripture.
Indeed they did. They knew who to fear, that being YHWH, rather than Muhammad and his alter-ego, the Quraish pagan's deity "Allah":
Ishaq:462/Tabari VIII:30 "The Jews said, 'We will never abandon the Torah or exchange it for the Qur'an.' Asad said, 'Since you reject this proposal of mine, then kill your children and your wives and go out to Muhammad and his Companions as men who brandish swords, leaving behind no impediments to worry you. If you die, you shall have left nothing behind; if you win you shall find other women and children.' The Jews replied, 'Why would we kill these poor ones? What would be the good of living after them?'"
Those peaceful, faithful farmers were more than willing to be martyred, and loose their lives in this world, rather than to be separated from God forever, by following Muhammad and prostrating themselves toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca. Their ancestors and a golden calf had aptly taught them that lesson.
YOUR REFERENCE IS INCORRECT: Please have the decency to actual read the Hadiths from the Books that They written in. Do not copy and paste fabrications posted on the web. I have detected that most if not all of the translations cited in this forum is mistranslations with no tafseer.
You are not reading the Hadith and the Quran from the Books itself, MORE PROOF OF THE GENERAL EVIL PERVADING THE JEWS AND CHRISTIANS.
Here it is from what Satan's followers considered the best and most inspired Hadith collection, Bukhari. Now why don't you read these and let's see if you can see where the 100% pure unbridled evil really is:
http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=coitus&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all
(1) Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: that while he was sitting with Allah's Apostle he said, "O Allah's Apostle! We get female captives as our share of booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interrupt us?" The Prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do it. No soul that which Allah has destined to exist, but will surely come into existence. (Book #34, Hadith #432)
(2) Narrated Ibn Muhairiz: I saw Abu Said and asked him about coitus interruptus. Abu Said said, "We went with Allah's Apostle, in the Ghazwa of Barli Al-Mustaliq and we captured some of the 'Arabs as captives, and the long separation from our wives was pressing us hard and we wanted to practice coitus interruptus. We asked Allah's Apostle (whether it was permissible). He said, "It is better for you not to do so. No soul, (that which Allah has) destined to exist, up to the Day of Resurrection, but will definitely come, into existence." (Book #46, Hadith #718)
(3) Narrated Ibn Muhairiz: I entered the Mosque and saw Abu Said Al-Khudri and sat beside him and asked him about Al-Azl (i.e. coitus interruptus). Abu Said said, "We went out with Allah's Apostle for the Ghazwa of Banu Al-Mustaliq and we received captives from among the Arab captives and we desired women and celibacy became hard on us and we loved to do coitus interruptus. So when we intended to do coitus interrupt us, we said, 'How can we do coitus interruptus before asking Allah's Apostle who is present among us?" We asked (him) about it and he said, 'It is better for you not to do so, for if any soul (till the Day of Resurrection) is predestined to exist, it will exist." (Book #59, Hadith #459)
(6) Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: We got female captives in the war booty and we used to do coitus interruptus with them. So we asked Allah's Apostle about it and he said, "Do you really do that?" repeating the question thrice, "There is no soul that is destined to exist but will come into existence, till the Day of Resurrection." (Book #62, Hadith #137)
(7) Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: That while he was sitting with the Prophet a man from the Ansar came and said, "O Allah's Apostle! We get slave girls from the war captives and we love property; what do you think about coitus interruptus?" Allah's Apostle said, "Do you do that? It is better for you not to do it, for there is no soul which Allah has ordained to come into existence but will be created." (Book #77, Hadith #600)
(8) Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: That during the battle with Bani Al-Mustaliq they (Muslims) captured some females and intended to have sexual relation with them without impregnating them. So they asked the Prophet about coitus interrupt us. The Prophet said, "It is better that you should not do it, for Allah has written whom He is going to create till the Day of Resurrection." Qaza'a said, "I heard Abu Sa'id saying that the Prophet said, 'No soul is ordained to be created but Allah will create it." (Book #93, Hadith #506)
WHAT ARE YOU DEFENDING THE JEWS FOR????? WHY ARE YOU BUYING THE LIES OF THE ZIONISTS????
A better question for you to ask yourself is why you have chosen to run with anti-Zionists like David Duke and the KKK, Louis Farrakan and the "Nation of Islam", communist Soviets, the United Nations, George Soros and his Center for American Progress, white supremacists, Nazis, skinheads, and anti-Semites of all stripes.
http://www.zionismchristian.com/anti_zionism.htm