Author Topic: Discussion with J  (Read 4665 times)

Pete

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Discussion with J
« on: July 20, 2008, 12:50:49 PM »
Hi J,
Didn't know if you would come by to see the note on my channel comments so I quoted it below.


Rather than put up with these frustrating few hundred character video bits you are welcome to join us in the wide open spaces of the Ecclesia Forum. i haven't needed to ban anything on my videos, or in the forum yet, and don't expect I will have to. That's the fun thing about walking in truth.
The forum is: brotherpete . com/index . php

There is a section devoted to the Roman Catholic Church. You are welcome to comment or open new discussion in any section. it's quiet for now so pretty much be you and I.

I'll look forward to seeing you there.
Your brother,
Pete

That address is:
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php
Truth can never be told so as to be understood and not be believed. ~ William Blake
Please visit: http://www.beholdthebeast.com/
http://www.israelinbibleprophecy.com/
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/

Pete

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Re: Discussion with J
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2008, 12:55:58 PM »
J wrote:

Thanks Pete.

I just checked on your channel now as well.

Well, I will take it under consideration. Truly my life is fairly full right now, debating can be fun at times, but sometimes very fruitless (as in exhausting if one has to deal with [another].

I am on a couple forums, and have not had time for them lately either. [personal note]

If I feel up to it I will check in.

However, you should realize, I was baptized Catholic, was away from the faith (due to parents divorce at age 8) and went with my mom who was Protestant.

[personal note]

What I am saying here:

I love my Catholic heritage, but moreso that I have seen so many people do wonderful things in simple or big ways in the Catholic faith. We are not what appears to the world regarding Cathedrals and Vatican.

I also can debate up a storm because my mother was protestant. I also know enough about other faith observances, but I do know mine well enough to know it has more than all the elements of what Jesus is all about and wants for us.

The Power of the Holy Spirit is what counts. There is darkness in the world too, and I realize that. I have been in the light and had many "experiences" that I know Jesus is all love and light.

Basically it boils down to this for me - then you know whether you want me on your forum:

I am all about abuse for the most part right now. Abuse on women and children and what caused it from past and now present.

I want women to be recognized more in all faiths, as well as more awareness that the bible and scripture has been a dangerous book all along for many women.

Keeping them down for 1000's of years, only managing to free them in the 20th century if one realizes it. This is 1000's of years of mens history and them forcing it too. Women had no say, I have some good ammunition to talk about this. Islam even worse, I debate about that too, because they have wife beating videos and the like.

If one wants to have a better world, better faith observances, men have to start realizing women now understand much more than they realize. That women even stay in churches at times was a miracle.

If we all rebelled and up and left - what would the Churches look like?

[videographer]  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IH2iV-BbVGw&feature  is one scary man to want women in the kitchen and not even speaking in public. Since when did men get freedom of speech and not women?

Economically dependent and socially deprived, does not begin to explain the abuses that would start with that premise alone

I am no radical feminist either.

This is me right now. I am married (31 years) I am raising 2 daughters now almost grown. Am from a large family and had much adversity in life, along with much joy. I learned hard way, but not by choice many times.

I think that men and women approach things diffferent, have different strengths too.

However, women need to have a different approach or say in religion too. Not to take over, but to start balancing things out at times.

The things many men are advocating for women in Church can keep them in places that will be ripe for abuse. Catholic Church too, but that is where my faith observance is and where I can make a difference with the help of Christ. I have been on many workshops with our diocese for abuse. It is prevalent in all relgions and has to be fought from inside out. There is no other way, same with islam because, muslim men only listen to other muslims.

That we have to do so much "intepreting" for this to not happen is a concern too.

Why is it not clear in the bible? Because it covers about 10,000 years and a culture we can not even relate.

I am well read and understand a lot of scripture, but no one is going to convince me about the adam and eve story, I don't care how many analogies or stories they make up about that one.

Chapter 1 and 2 of the bible contradict each other drastically and Gen 2 has a whole huge fable about men and women.

Wonder why they had to do that anyway instead of just saying men and women have sex and make babies together.

Adams rib has caused more women to be harmed than men will even understand and they are the first to deny it. Take that whole chapter out and maybe that might be a start.

There are many good men, but we have to quit with the sola scriptura in my mind or some of these issues will never be solved for women.

At least in Catholic faith they don't take many things literally, although they do have their problems too.

God is everywhere, all faiths. people all have different ways of describing their experience with God.

Some are right on and some are downright loopy.

I say we will all know when we get to heaven. Until then we have to do as Jesus says in 1 John 4 and John 14-16 in the bible and we might all survive.

See where my mind is right now.

Blessings in Christ
« Last Edit: July 25, 2008, 12:03:26 PM by Pete »
Truth can never be told so as to be understood and not be believed. ~ William Blake
Please visit: http://www.beholdthebeast.com/
http://www.israelinbibleprophecy.com/
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/

Pete

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Re: Discussion with J
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2008, 12:59:48 PM »
Pete:

You are preaching to the choir in the west. About 40 years too late to liberate women here in the U.S..

But wife beating is perfectly acceptable in Islam because it is prescribed by the Quran. If you had a genuine interest in fighting for women, rather than wasting time in the west where they have basically won the fight, and there is no shortage of those fighting for them, in the secular world in particular, I recommend you turn to Islam, where they are treated as chattel. IF YOU LOOK AT NO OTHER LINK I EVER PRESENT, PLEASE READ THIS ONE:

http://www.rawa.org/samia.htm

In Gerogia a man recently killed his daughter for divorcing her husband, that was arranged for her. "Honor" killing is commonplace in Islam and is not prosecutable under Sharia law. IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME. It is the largest category of crime that Israeli police investigate in the Palestinian territories. Yahoo it.

Police are no longer even allowed in Islamic sections of France and England. They are effectively ruled under Sharia law. Soon to happen in Dearborn Michigan if it isn't the de facto case already.

"Two million Muslim women beaten ................... in France! So what goes on in the Arab world? Total isolation."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouztv-tRPKM&NR=1

These women REALLY need your help.
You are preaching to the choir in the west.
Here is a link from my site with a little more info on women and a few videos: http://www.beholdthebeast.com/#women

J:

[[[...same with islam because, muslim men only listen to other muslims.]]]

Pete:

Not the same at all. The Quran prescribes wife beating:

Sura 4:34 - Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and BEAT THEM; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/27168100.jpg

Muslim women receive half the inheritance of a man and have half the voice of a man in court. It requires 3 women to bring an allegation of rape.

The hate crimes bill passed the house, and will likely pass the Senate. In every country that has passed such legislation, like Canada, it gives a voice to Islam while removing the voice of Christianity. Ironically, the very ones that fight for it, the homosexuals, are the ones that are killed, out of hand, under Islamic sharia law.

What kind of world do you want your daughters to inherit?

Will send the rest later.

Your brother in Christ Jesus,
Pete

Link to video "Not the Same God"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gc3vcr_MQYM
« Last Edit: July 25, 2008, 12:05:14 PM by Pete »
Truth can never be told so as to be understood and not be believed. ~ William Blake
Please visit: http://www.beholdthebeast.com/
http://www.israelinbibleprophecy.com/
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/

Pete

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Re: Discussion with J
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2008, 01:31:12 PM »
J wrote:

Dear Pete,

Brother in Christ,

Well, I am running this morning, but thank you for your message.

About preaching to the choir - I may seem like I have only one agenda, but not so. I stand corrected on having common thought, so forgive me on that score. I commend you on your own ministry to help others seem the harms in Islam that can reach epic proportions if people don't get educated. I hope you continue and manage to make inroads as well. Very worthy cause to be sure.

Where to even start, I don’t know. But will share some thoughts with you, because forums are not remotely sufficient for this type of exchange, which by the way, I have been studying for over 30 years, and read 1000’s of books, periodicals, journals and real study, as well as life experience to formulate my in depth knowledge. Bear with me for I may not write again about all this for I do not like to do it piecemeal or we could be here for years. (smiling here). You have opened the door for this, because you seem to believe a woman like me is narrow minded in thought and scope about this issue and I would like to clear up this assumption. However, I also give this because you are a good man, respectful and have genuine interest in combating evil in the world. This is my premise, welcome to a portion of my world, you may glean some information that will assist in your own endeavours, if so then this will be worthwhile. Forgive spelling, please. For you and I are on the same side, and I see you already know Islam is becoming more than a serious issue in our countries.

I do know about sharia law – muslims they tried to pull that one in Ontario not long ago and that was a battle to strike down that is another whole story. So far we are winning that one!

See my posts on some of those videos a while ago under different channel names, [named] to name two. I do counteract those videos with the harms of hitting; that result in emotional, physical, brain stunting, victimization and how it gets perpetuated or misdirected in the next generation. The harms resound in every single place of a woman, body, mind and soul, her children, society, and the next generation. And resounds with us all today. Those harms are not only in Islam and that is why one must focus on what they can, can’t do and know the difference. And truly know how to approach this where one will make inroads and a difference.


Education about abuse is paramount. We cannot solve a sister’s (one of my own sisters as well) with problem with her husband beating her over the years, try to save her over and over and she goes back, we see the harms on their children and more? Police, Church authorities, counselors all play a role including doctors. Where does that leave us trying to convince men a country away to stop something they believe is just fine due to their unbelievable ignorance and indoctrination for generations. We have knowledge, studies, and laws to protect women. We took women off books as chattel finally in 1970’s in Canada.

How does this look to Muslims when we have alarming proportions of abuse of all types raging even on the television or youtube. And these muslims both educated and not, will hone in on that instantly if one attacks their system of thought and laws. So one has to know their own issues too, before remotely addressing what is happening in the bedrooms of muslims we had better understand we can’t solve this issue in a country where woman do have the best rights in the world.

We have a so-called women’s rights country, show me the real women in our society and how they manage. 33 million people in Canada, 300 million in the U.S. that statistics are off the Richter scale for abuse in real stats brought to the fore: Can you imagine what goes on behind closed doors before that happens. Can you imagine, why women in this day and age will sell their bodies, or think nothing now of appearing half naked on family TV. shows?

Can we blame women, society, men, media, the devil, and religious rigidity, permissive society? Where do we even start if we can’t solve our own very serious issues? Not only in media this represented by just a fraction of real abuse – but also our own families have issues that we cannot solve, even in homes that appear solid and caring.

Where is the root of this problem then? This is critical to get to this before we can solve those issues in other countries (which btw we have so many efforts in every sector of society, (Church, government, activists groups of every type, from trying to solve poverty, disease, cancer, wars, conflicts, crime, sexual disease, and all things that come from that) Addictions in society are at an all time high. Abuse of every kind then comes from people who are addicted in some way or form. Men out of balance are sometimes part of these harms (and women don’t get me wrong here, but always there is a base to go back to men).

Men with testosterone in balance, in cities can become productive or out of balance extremely harmful. They need an outlet for their beings, hobbies, passions, pursuits that use the testosterone that builds up in their bodies and brains. If a man is not balanced he is ripe for becoming a: workaholic, alcoholic, addicted to something TV. games, sex. Or he will abuse, or become a dictator.

Know anyone like this? James the preacher fits the bill for dictator because he solved some other issues in his youth. Men without balance and outlets need to find healthy ones or they quickly resort to using their power for abuse.

People living crammed in large cities are a problem, people’s energies vibrating because we do have souls and spirits that are affected negatively by overcrowding. People start acting weird and deviant to get their “territory and space” in society.

Culture, family, medicine, schools, education, every sector forms how we develop. I can talk circles and volumes on this topic.

You would not be able to absorb it all because my dearth of knowledge is vast, and even periodicals and books on abuse, addictions, brains, bodies and the like has grown leaps and bounds in knowledge and understanding from only 5 years ago, let alone almost 4 decades ago when I first started studying. I suppose I even knew as a child there was a huge problem with boys with way more privilege than girls in school or society. My own household was one. We started out with 4 girls, we never remotely got the same privileges or freedom as our cousin male counterparts of same age.

The only way to help people about abuse is with education from their own language, jargon, culture, education system and work from there. People who are informed and live biblical standards will ONLY listen to those who can back their premise up with scripture, and that is very scary too.

Muslims for example, live primarily according to Old Testament standards as Mohammed was pretty much living in totality similar to David or King Solomon (warring tribes for rule – only his was religious based on what God told him). Oh, I guess that is where most wars originate – unless of course one is communist and they don’t pretend it is about God. Only difference with Mohammed, he had a big hate on for Jews and add Christians to that pot, and voila and ready made base for perpetuating harms on everyone for another 1400 years.

And we live in modern America where it appears women are free in society and all these problems solved?

We also, have to be sensitive to the Muslims who will carry that message, because there are many who will do this when they become educated and is happening as we speak in many countries, but this takes time and education. Muslims are the ones who will infiltrate from within to make the most effective and lasting change.

However, youtube commentary is a way to combat as well, this is becoming a very powerful medium as I am discovering in my short time here.

Perhaps you have not been on some youtube commentaries against Islamic practices, that I have, as there are many, too many now to comment on them all.

One is only one person, after all.

It also took me a while to discover enough about Islam, I admit to being in the dark about this for some time, but that too can be explained as to nature of my own life circumstances and again internet and forums expand a persons scope far quicker than news papers or waiting for studies to come out.

Further, the Internet and media have many biases, so one still has to be cautious as to what is culture verses what is religion.

Muslims in general are just breaking out into the world at large (in the scope of centuries of history, so we have to forgive ourselves at times for our ignorance of their ways). Just as the world at large doesn't not understand our countries and history at times and instead sees only harms or news media clips only.

Perhaps you have been informed longer than I as well.

Without getting into more right now. I have in fact written commentary on Islamic videos that show wife beating and other archaic thought. It becomes so appalling one has to take a break or it breaks ones heart.

And too people still have to word things so it is clear enough to not slam personalities, but stay on topic. Very delicate balance at times, when one is up against men who condone wife beating according to "quran" and "hadith" instruction.

It also took me some time to sort out different *sects*, and sections of their laws, sharia, hadith are offshoots of the quran, from sayings and writings of his wives and others who interpreted what Mohammed "said".

We won't get into fact that Mohammed was maybe partly insane - warring, sanctioned pillaging, torturing raping and taking property and women as booty. He had 12? Wives (disputed) including his child bride Aisha married at 6, consummated marriage at 9 years old). , Many concubines, hatred for Jews and Christians - in epic proportions.

However, this is what people do not understand. Mohammed is an example of how people lived in the Old Testament days. There is nothing that he has done that was not done by some prophets in the bible. Yet we don't "see that" because we have been numbed to it.

This is why we must work from within our own Churches (in addition to creating awareness of Islam). Or else we will have people like James the preacher convincing men to treat their wives as in the bible. We most certainly have no choice but to care for our own when we see the battles we did one are trying to be eroded and oppressed again.

These are the seeds and root of abuse.

How shameful that North American women suffer at the hands of their so-called "loved ones" in this day and age.

I do argue on Islamic channels, about this, but it gets exhausting there too with nut cases. One also has to tread carefully on Muslim channels that are very modern and peaceful, that one touches on this subject graduated or they shut down communication.

Continued
« Last Edit: July 21, 2008, 07:57:48 AM by Pete »
Truth can never be told so as to be understood and not be believed. ~ William Blake
Please visit: http://www.beholdthebeast.com/
http://www.israelinbibleprophecy.com/
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/

Pete

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Re: Discussion with J
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2008, 01:31:29 PM »
Continued

J wrote:

There is a way to make a difference, confrontational at times works, but also working from within the peaceful groups works too, language then must be chosen carefully, so as to not shut down communication.

It is the peaceful Muslims or those with eyes more and more open that will be the ones who enact change from within. Muslims will never overall listen to infidels, especially those indoctrinated for generations as they only have quran teachings as base in schools. If people understand the archaic system that is perpetuated as "education" in some Islamic nations they would be horrified.

However, we are seeing now the boiling up of these thoughts in world at large.

Only Muslims will change Muslims, sad to say. Warring with them can become a vicious cycle (did we not learn anything? from history).

This is why I always, always come back to balance. We must balance male and female in our own countries and leadership roles, and not women trying to act like or compete with men (which is inevitable or they get squashed before they make it through university at times.

No matter what, it is men at the root that has to be addressed.

Men like you are the answer, to be aware how the male mind works, and why this crosses all cultural, political and religious boundaries as the root of the problem.

Men have power over everything in the end; they exert their power in many ways, and abuse it in many ways, through ignorance, anger, or whatever.

But men are the ones also that can help move mountains to create peace and goodness.

They need women with clout and power to keep them balanced, with love, respect and honouring both of their strengths and voice in society. Abuse issues themselves must be understood in correlation with trying to address Islam practices that keep women down. Many women collude in abuse against their own children and think nothing of it, but that is rare unless they are that callous. Most women were little girls and knew this was all wrong, but over time, being beaten, affects the brain stem, is the only way I can describe simply. Combine with continual indoctrination, and this makes even mothers think that it is necessary to kill their own daughters to save the honour of the “family”. Very crazy thinking. Borderline insane.

Therefore, when a man like [videographer] is blaring in a bullhorn that women need to stay silent or at home (or they are like prostitutes if they open their mouths) and can do this in view of public and not one person came to that woman’s defense? Or understood the ramifications of both his presentation and proposals? This is a worrisome society.

When society does not recognize verbal and emotional abuse happening before their eyes, in addition to what this man was proposing? We have a worrisome society.
What would have happened had a Muslim done the exact same thing as James?

That is what I want to know, because Americans are then duped to think that James is not acting like a moderate Muslim in his mind.

Muslims follow the Old Testament if people don't get the correlation.

As for abuse and their proofs of all the harms, The thing is Pete, it is hard to find some of these studies on line, I did not keep them all in my mind over the years, as well, many are very new, having had to be proved by science and medicine.
Sadly proofs that women’s bodies, skin, brains, and other female issues have not been thoroughly examined until recently, medicine having primarily only drawn on perspective of male. Studies now to show that women and men are very different in may physiological (as if we didn’t know this for goodness sake), brain, nerve endings and hormones, as well as quantity of hormones and how our brains are totally different overall, size and system to a degree.

I just read a good book on the female brain by Louanne Brizianne MD(sp) about the Female Brain, seems to have enough correlation to my own readings and understandings. Only tip of iceberg.

Another thing to refute Muslims: women have double the nerve endings than men in their skin receptors for pain. Women do feel pain twice as much as men, we just have to buck up a lot better, and including fact our skin is more delicate. Again as if we had to prove this for goodness sake!

That any man can slap a child or woman makes me want to cry, they don’t know what they are doing or that is causes double the pain and more that they would feel over the same slap.

Want me to continue, Pete. This will become a very long message.

The bible is the root of harms right now. Churches that promote biblical teaching that keep women in positions of economic subservience and not as equal “worth” are the harms. Women and men are not the same, but they have the same worth, intelligence (women more than men in many cases, because proven their verbal skills and senses to spot peoples feelings or impressions are superior). Women have to have a say in all facets of life where it makes a difference to how they are seen and treated.

Erasing the wrong impression of scripture is paramount. Erasing the idea that eve came from Adams rib. Erasing the idea that we can take the bible literally is paramount and first and foremost to gain any sense of balance with people, Christ, the Holy Spirit.

This is why Mary is valuable in the Catholic Church, not to worship but to give a rightful place for women to be honoured and respected.

Thanks for listening thus far. I cannot stop once I start, for that please forgive me. Because I would like to hear what you have to say, but you will realize the depth of where we can go. Anyone can start studying and learning about all this and more, but to be cautious about sources, because new studies, information is critical.

Further the best families, and children, come form a nice home (not rich or perfect), values, husband and wife as equal partners. Children’s phases of development understood, and managed age appropriate, in their physical, emotional, intellectual, social and spiritual formation. Children need healthy boundaries, but this can be managed with encouragement, positive words and outlets for their energy. The words I see in Christian fundamentalists are appalling to the nth degree about using hell, fear, wicked, punishments to form their world. Secular people do the same with put downs, no different. Children thrive on real work, being part of family and community and valued. That is the bottom line, we need modern thought in our churches about healthy child development and it sure doesn’t work if the bible is male biased to the point that we have taken any vestige of women or their worth in the core. A few women scattered here and there in bible is not remotely enough for a balance. That is why there is such an imbalance with devotion to Mary. People, men and women and children know deep down their mothers are the ones who hold them to their bosom and make the hurts go away and give them so much love and joy.

What on earth have we done to our children and families that we want to perpetuate myths that would make women nothing in the whole scheme of life or heavens and Gods Kingdom? If people truly study Jesus words and his life, they will soon see huge gaps in his story and the piecing together to take Mary out and not create cohesion but division and confusion.

The lost gospels are only a small proof of this fact alone. Taking Mary Magdalene, Mary Mother of Jesus and making them into bit roles in the bible or fragmenting he whole picture is the most shameful thing men ever did in my esteem.

Mary as a virgin (because sex was seen as dirty) and Mary Magdalene as a whore (which has been disproved in its entirety.

This is the root of all problems.

Man, woman, = love = sex = babies = family. And should just be a wonderful loving flow from there. But man wanted to have more wives and control. Man did not want to control his passions but sure wanted to control women’s passions. The battle has been over who carries the babies and who gives ultimate pleasure to a man.

Eve from Adams rib? And eve is the main cause of all sin in the world – hmm how does that look for a healthy view of our sexuality and male female bonding and love? Or understanding the birds and the bees?

All the harms in all of society for the most part are from this great deception to make women lose their power and their influence in society as bearing the earths children. They became currency for men in the end, and men had to take away her power.

God would never, ever do this, nor would Jesus. Do you understand me a bit more now? I have only presented a tiny portion of this.

[mention of place helping abused]


Thank you for listening.

Abundant prayers for you, your family and this ministry for Christ.

Blessings in Christ,

J
« Last Edit: July 25, 2008, 11:58:51 AM by Pete »
Truth can never be told so as to be understood and not be believed. ~ William Blake
Please visit: http://www.beholdthebeast.com/
http://www.israelinbibleprophecy.com/
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/

Pete

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Re: Discussion with J
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2008, 01:32:35 PM »
Pete:

PS
An example of the reason you are needed so desperately to stand up for women in Islam, is that out of ALL of the videos I have seen regarding wife beating in Islam, 100% of the questions and answers regard HOW HARD one is to beat one's wife.

I have YET to find a single one that discusses the mental torture involved, even if a wet noodle were used. It seems not to occur to the questioners or the answerers.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2008, 01:54:48 PM by Pete »
Truth can never be told so as to be understood and not be believed. ~ William Blake
Please visit: http://www.beholdthebeast.com/
http://www.israelinbibleprophecy.com/
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/

Pete

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Re: Discussion with J
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2008, 01:34:00 PM »
Pete:

I am about half way through but before I proceed further I need to ask you if you, or your mother, or someone close was a victim of physical abuse.
Or are you working daily in a center devoted to receiving abused women.
Or whether you are divorced by a husband that was the model of fidelity.

Your view is unusually sexist and I am trying to make sense of it.
I will respond to it in chunks. No need to reply to my replies unless you are moved to do so.

Thanks,
Pete
Truth can never be told so as to be understood and not be believed. ~ William Blake
Please visit: http://www.beholdthebeast.com/
http://www.israelinbibleprophecy.com/
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/

Pete

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Re: Discussion with J
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2008, 01:45:13 PM »
J wrote:

Well, you are a good person to read all my words, I will give you that.

[accounts of knowing abuse, but not abused by husband] ]]]

Pete:

None of this in my life. None that I know of in any of my friend's or relatives lives. [personal]
I believe THIS IS THE NORM.
Your opinions and bigotry against men come from your background.

J wrote:

[[["The many stories [about abuse].

Most were women who had high morals and were raised well. Some were not, but I did not hang around them as much.

I attended a 12 week course at the Archdiocese about the abuses and how Church (religions bible), society, culture all played a role in covering up, perpetuating abuse on women and children for years.]]]

Pete:

Blaming the Word of God is a lie. The bible had no part in it. Your "church" continuously has to excuse itself away, and here goes so far as to condemn the Word of God for it's own failure. Your church is carnal.

Unregenerate individuals are the reason for the problems you detail, not the bible.
Do these priests hold the bible responsible for papal murder of reformers too? Do they hold the bible responsible for the Crusade murder of Jews on their way through Europe, eventually culminating in cannibalism?

J wrote:

[[[Catholic Church does not follow sola scriptura, ...]]]

Pete:

That's the problem. That's why they committed atrocities that history recorded, as well as the modern day atrocities you detail. Both inside and outside of your church.
It's the result of men exercising authority over other men, having usurped it from Jesus Christ.

J wrote:

[[[....and many people did not correlate adam and eve story as I mentioned. But Mary as a virgin and Mary M as a whore was a continual theme raised, although our guides would never say Mary was not a virgin, we realized from enough information that this was a disputed issue since early church.]]]

Pete:

Mary was a virgin when she bore Jesus, but then went on to give Him brothers and sisters. That's why Jesus was her "firstborn".

J wrote:

[[[Therefore it is best to just get to the issues of abuse, and that the bible has enough that would be easily used to keep women down over the years.]]]

Pete:

You are tilting at windmills because you see the battle as carnal.

J wrote:

[[[Further divorce was a death knell for women, and not allowed at all in the Church.
Priests were also a huge part of the problem not understanding abuse issues and cycles.]]]

Pete:

TONS of them responsible for the abuse of their power - that their parishioners are deluded into believing God gave them - over women, and children, unto today. That's the problem with men stealing authority that belongs to Jesus Christ.

J wrote:

[[[Women would go to confession and tell mild to severe stories of abuse at hands of husband and priest would tell her to go home and try strategies or tell her to try harder to please him. That bad at times.

I am not saying this is a massive problem for in our parish it is not.]]]

Pete:

Certainly not the biggest problem in your parish.

J wrote:

[[[But it became a crunch issue in the late 1990's (think of Priest abuse too) because the reprecussions of decades of abuse and many studies and knowledge erupted into awareness and women wanting no more of this.]]]

Pete:

This isn't a 1990s issue. It has always been and will always be a problem with this horribly misguided church. Yahoo - catholic church lawsuit million - if you think it is now, or ever, going away.
You insist on remaining in a lost church that you, yourself, should be able to understand is part of the problem.

J wrote:

[[[These issues of course are getting resolved now after that first great wave in late 90's. Programs in Churches for many issues. Children, wives, and separate programs for men who are the abusers at times. If they want to attend.

This awareness however, led to revamping the marriage preparation courses in the Church. In particular standard questions now that will root out a mans thought on how to treat his wife. Addictions, abuse and adultery are covered because this is number one cause of marital break down.

I have seen some women stay in marriages (unloved, neglected living in separate bedrooms or areas of the house). This is so sad, for them and their grown children. They would never divorce. It was till death do you part for them. Even if they half died in a marriage.

Is this what God wants?]]]

Pete:

Could be they trust in God and His plan for their lives. Maybe they think God will help their husbands come around. Maybe He will. [personal]
The RCC has the same kind of grip on folks that Islam has on Muslims. I was saved a few months after I left that [ECUSA] church.
My life here on earth is but a vapor, so no matter.

J wrote:

[[[It has been proven that most men who are angry and abusive just don't stop because they are told to. They have serious issues and some have to lose it all and they still wont change.

So where does this leave a woman trying to fix her marriage?

It is proven the woman is part of the problem because she uses same strategy to get him to stop. This never works, because he got away with it with her for years.]]]

Pete:

As a rule neither do carnal solutions that you seem to put your trust in.

J wrote:

[[[Men are stubborn and we know why, those wheel barrow ruts in their brains are hard to form new paths.]]]

Pete:

Do you lump all Jews into the same group too? Those whose lives revolve around their temples, and those that are atheist?

But what you seem to be suggesting without realizing it is that men are more rational and less driven by their emotions. On average I believe most would agree. This is why men generally get along with other men better than women get along with other women.

J wrote:

[[[They can change is true, but why should a woman have to go through hell to prove he is harming her, make him stop so they can have a normal life?

Then to have him use the bible or scripture to keep her down more or tell her she is making a big deal out of it?]]]

Pete:

You are fighting on the wrong front. The problem isn't with the scriptures but with the unregenerate individual.
We don't become Christian simply as a result of someone sprinkling water on our heads as an infant.

J wrote:

[[[What is sexists about being honest about exposing real harms on women and children?]]]

Pete:

What is sexist is statements like this: "Men are stubborn and we know why, those wheel barrow ruts in their brains are hard to form new paths."

How about "women can't think their way out of a paper bag". Is that true for some? Perhaps. For all? No.

J wrote:

[[[Either you did not read my whole message, or you do not understand it.]]]

Pete:

I told you I had only made it halfway through. That's when I realized that your world view was warped and the result of trouble in your or those around you's lives.

J wrote:

[[[Because for any man to say I am sexist after I speak about beatings, verbal abuse, harms on women, sex abuse too, there is something wrong then with how he views women.]]]

Pete:

Do all black men commit crime?

J wrote:

[[[I hope you realize now I respect mens strengths and attributes, but they are the ones how have to start smartening up if they don't use these wisely in life with women and children and their families.]]]

Pete:

See what I mean?

J wrote:

[[[Many men are good as well, not perfect but good, but most I have known in life have to be taught a lot how to treat women well.]]]

Pete:

And again.

J wrote:

[[[Blessings in Christ,

Barb ]]]

Pete:

Largely because of the RCC you misunderstand the nature of the battle you have before you. You are at war against the flesh, because your church is about the flesh. I will explain this a little more as I respond to your first letter, now that you confirmed what I suspected.

Did you ever contemplate the POSSIBILITY that 90% of the people that sit around you in church could be unregenerate?
« Last Edit: July 20, 2008, 01:54:17 PM by Pete »
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Pete

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Re: Discussion with J
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2008, 08:14:04 AM »

[videographer]   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IH2iV-BbVGw&feature  is one scary man to want women in the kitchen and not even speaking in public. Since when did men get freedom of speech and not women?

Economically dependent and socially deprived, does not begin to explain the abuses that would start with that premise alone

Not scary at all.
Women have freedom of speech in public as well as men. Though congress is about to wrap up a bill that will criminalize truth as "hate speech".
What did he say in his video that suggested otherwise?

In regard to my response, perhaps to you, on that video, the bible is unambiguous about women as pastors:

Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
It's about order.

1Cr 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
So then do you follow God's will or flaunt disobedience in His face?

If you could avoid attacking the messenger and address the subject it would set you quite apart from the average Catholic defending Catholicism
What James video is about is how the doctrine of Marianism is not only extra-scriptural but it is anti-scriptural. That's why the decree was given by the pope in the 6th century that anyone who followed it was to be an anathema. A heretic.

Here is a fuller explanation by an X-nun. http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=16.0

Former ECUSA female renounces leadership role after a study of scripture:
« Last Edit: July 29, 2008, 02:40:36 PM by Peter »
Truth can never be told so as to be understood and not be believed. ~ William Blake
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http://www.islamandthetruth.com/

Pete

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Re: Discussion with J
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2008, 03:09:16 PM »

The bible is the root of harms right now. Churches that promote biblical teaching that keep women in positions of economic subservience and not as equal “worth” are the harms. Women and men are not the same, but they have the same worth, intelligence (women more than men in many cases, because proven their verbal skills and senses to spot peoples feelings or impressions are superior). Women have to have a say in all facets of life where it makes a difference to how they are seen and treated.

Erasing the wrong impression of scripture is paramount. Erasing the idea that eve came from Adams rib. Erasing the idea that we can take the bible literally is paramount and first and foremost to gain any sense of balance with people, Christ, the Holy Spirit.

This is why Mary is valuable in the Catholic Church, not to worship but to give a rightful place for women to be honoured and respected.


This is all one really need to read.
The bible is not now, nor has ever been, the problem.
Nor does any of it need to be erased. It is the Word of God.
The "idea" that woman came from Adam's rib is what God's Word SAYS:
Gen 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

Just like the order expressed in the verses in the prior post.

It should be painfully obvious that if every individual that came along with some warped personal opinions were allowed to edit it, according to their personal opinion, it wouldn't exist today.

No surprise you express your respect for God's Word this way, coming from a church that holds so many traditions of men that are exactly contrary to it.
You can't afford to believe God's Word or you would have to walk out of the RCC.


Marianism is a heresy that is not only not at all valuable, but rather preempts the role of Jesus Christ as our intercessor.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2008, 03:15:41 PM by Pete »
Truth can never be told so as to be understood and not be believed. ~ William Blake
Please visit: http://www.beholdthebeast.com/
http://www.israelinbibleprophecy.com/
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/