Author Topic: Jesus is not God .  (Read 9075 times)

Ayamen1

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Jesus is not God .
« on: April 27, 2010, 04:19:32 PM »
Jesus is not God , is a human prophet . son of virgin . created by God by word .
God said be and he is . Jesus was sent by God to fulfill the Torah and ten commandment of Moses . but Paul came and cancelled the law of Moses .
Why christian not follow the law of moses ? Why christian not follow Jesus and the Law ?
Why does christian eats Pork , not circumscise , have sex outside marriage ( boy and girl friends ) . why they use idoels of Mary and Jesus ?
In numbers - God is not Man or Son of a man .
so Jesus is not God .

Peter

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Re: Jesus is not God .
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2010, 04:52:34 PM »
Hello Ayamen1 my friend, and welcome to the forum!  :)
You have lots of time to study the evidence and reply. I realize I am more prepared than you in here so I will fire off a bunch of answers that you can pick at one by one.
You can ponder them at your leisure unlike YouTube 500 character disjointed bits and pieces.

Please feel free to chop every little point into a separate post if you like.
1. Simply push the "quote" button in the upper right of the post,
2. and then remove everything that you don't want included in the quote, from in between the first tag - that should look something like this
[ quote author=Pete link=topic=54.msg123#msg123 date=1213472172 ] and the last tag that looks like this [ /quote ]
3. Then type your response after that last tag.

Don't be concerned about what you write offending anybody since this forum does not engage in censorship and we are all grown-ups here.

Jesus is not God , is a human prophet . son of virgin . created by God by word .
God said be and he is .

I understand that's what Mohammed taught, but that isn't what Jesus said.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Jesus and God are coexistent - from the beginning. Jesus is a part of God just like God's Spirit is a part of God.
Jesus was manifest, or revealed, several times in the Old Testament in what are known as "christophanies".
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=615.0

Jesus was sent by God to fulfill the Torah and ten commandment of Moses .

Jesus was indeed sent to fulfill the law. And that's just what He did through a new covenant that was prophesied by Jeremiah, over 600 years before Jesus was made manifest - that is - revealed to us.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=537.0

God declared a covenant between Himself and Abraham and with the seed of the son that he had with Sarah, Isaac, as explored in "The Old Covenant" video: http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=519.0

Gen 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, [and] with his seed after him.

Later on, during that Old Covenant, God had Jeremiah prophesy of a new covenant many hundreds of years before Jesus fulfilled the old covenant:

OT
Jeremiah 31:31  Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:    32  Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: {although...: or, should I have continued an husband unto them?}    33  But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

This new covenant was fulfilled through Jesus Christ through whom God manifest, or revealed, Himself to mankind to show us the WAY to come to Him. The law is IN the inward parts of regenerate persons that are "born again":

NT
1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1Cr 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

That is how Jesus fulfilled the law.

Hbr 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.

The fulfillment in God's people:

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Hbr 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

Jesus is the mediator of that new covenant:

1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Indeed Jesus has been the mediator between God and mankind from our beginning. The way God chose to reveal Himself to us in a way that our limited human understanding could comprehend.

Hbr 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

After Jesus was resurrected He declared:

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

OT
Back to Jeremiah's prophecy in 31:34  And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

NT
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

All who believe in Jesus shed blood are saved from sin.

Matthew 26:28   For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Hbr 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

No man took Jesus life:

John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

In the Old Testament book of Psalms we find Jesus' crucifixion prophesied:

OT
Psalms 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I may tell all my bones: they look [and] stare upon me. 18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

Fulfilled:

NT
Matthew 27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.

We find another reference in Old Testament prophecy of the end:

OT
Zechariah 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David [shall be] as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. 9 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

John 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.


The same Koine Greek word diatheke is translated as "testament" 13 times and "covenant" 20 times.

testament
New Testament Greek Definition:
1242 diatheke {dee-ath-ay'-kay}
from 1303; TDNT - 2:106,157; n f
AV - covenant 20, testament 13; 33
1) a disposition, arrangement, of any sort, which one wishes to
be valid, the last disposition which one makes of his earthly
possessions after his death, a testament or will
2) a compact, a covenant, a testament
2a) God's covenant with Noah, etc.

Again, welcome to the forum!

Peter

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Re: Jesus is not God .
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2010, 04:56:08 PM »
but Paul came and cancelled the law of Moses .

Why pick on Paul when you must reject ALL of the New Testament prophets and apostles to follow Mohammed?
John does a far more effective job of condemning Mohammed. Bolding in these verses is mine prepared for YouTube comments.

John 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.   

1John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth HIM THAT BEGAT loveth HIM also THAT IS BEGOTTEN of him.

1John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] HE THAT HATH NOT THE SON OF GOD HATH NOT LIFE.   

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of the world. 15 Whosoever shall confess that JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

2John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath BOTH the Father AND THE SON.
                           
1John 5:10  He that BELIEVETH ON THE SON OF GOD hath the witness in himself: HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT GOD HATH MADE HIM A LIAR; because HE BELIEVED NOT THE RECORD that God gave OF HIS SON.

1John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? HE IS ANTICHRIST, THAT DENIETH the Father and THE SON. 23 WHOSOEVER DENIETH THE SON, THE SAME HATH NOT THE FATHER: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].

Peter

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Re: Jesus is not God .
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2010, 04:59:12 PM »
Why christian not follow the law of moses?

Because Jesus brought a new covenant through which we follow that law.
Why don't Muslims follow the 613 Mosaic laws or Mitzvah?

Why christian not follow Jesus and the Law ?

That's just what we do through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Why does christian eats Pork ,......

Some Christians are convicted through the spirit not to eat pork. Others aren't.

Rom 14:14   I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that [there is] nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him [it is] unclean.

Peter

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Re: Jesus is not God .
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2010, 05:02:43 PM »
..... not circumscise,....

There is certainly no prohibition against circumcision in Christianity, and in the U.S. you would likely find that most men are circumcised. This could be because the U.S. could be loaded with Jews from the tribe of Ephraim, who don't know that they are, and do it more by "instinct" through the Spirit.

But Christians understand through the Spirit what circumcision really is.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

Peter

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Re: Jesus is not God .
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2010, 05:06:42 PM »
.... have sex outside marriage ( boy and girl friends ) .

Now you are pretending that the world, or that all non-Muslims, are Christians. That is a common fall back strategy for Muslims to take, but not generally in an opening post.

1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

But Mohammed himself was guilty of of the highlighted points - not only fornication.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=53.0

Peter

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Re: Jesus is not God .
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2010, 05:12:23 PM »
why they use idoels of Mary and Jesus ?

That's the Roman Catholics. We have a whole forum section devoted to their false doctrines, including idolatry.
Also a post on several parallels between the Roman Church and Islam.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=7.0

That church is the result of what happens when men usurp the authority of Jesus Christ.

Now tell me. Why do you bow toward a black stone, that resides in the biggest idol in the world, 5 times a day?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1140.0

Peter

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Re: Jesus is not God .
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2010, 05:21:15 PM »
In numbers - God is not Man or Son of a man .
so Jesus is not God .

There are quite a few threads in this section that answer to that.
Secondly the revelation of God to mankind was recorded over a 1600 year period. That revelation did not end in Numbers, when mankind were little more than desert dwelling nomads.
The term is "progressive revelation".
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=935.0

Even Islamic scholars consider Mohammed's "revelations" to be a progressive revelation (even though they took place over an absurdly short 23 years, by a single author, which indicates not divine revelation but the changing whims of that author) because there are so many contradictions that 71 out of only 114 suras are subject to abrogation.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=116.0

Thus Mohammed's later violent verses from Medina that call for Muslims to fight against non-believers, nullify his earlier Mecca verses, such as "no compulsion in religion".

(Yusuf Ali) Quran 2:106 None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?

2:106 (Asad) Any message which, We annul or consign to oblivion We replace with a better or a similar one. Dost thou not know that God has the power to will anything?

resistingrexmundi

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Re: Jesus is not God .
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2010, 08:22:06 AM »
[disappeared and restored from database on 10-25-15]

Jesus is not God , is a human prophet . son of virgin . created by God by word ...In numbers - God is not Man or Son of a man.

I am sooooo glad you brought this verse up. Let's look at the full verse and see what ALL it says.

Num 23:19  God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do [it]? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

It is saying that God is not a man, THAT HE SHOULD LIE; neither the son of man, THAT HE SHOULD REPENT. Now isn't that interesting? This verse is drawing a comparison between God's character and that of man. These are two things Jesus never did or had to do. So Jesus' character is completely compatible with that of God. If you believe that God could not come down to earth in bodily form then you are simply limiting Him to your understanding of how He works. Besides God came down in the form of man in OT times as well.

Gen 18:1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day

Gen 18:2  And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw [them], he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,

Gen 18:3  And said, My Lord,
if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:

Now isn't that interesting too? God appeared to Abraham in the form of 3 men. But I want to show you why I am so glad you brought up that verse from Numbers. Let us focus on the character of God as outlined in that verse.

Num 23:19 God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do [it]? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good

Qur'an 4:142 "Surely the hypocrites strive to deceive Allah. He shall retaliate by deceiving them."

This portrays God as a vindictive bully who must sink to the level of those who disagree with Him.

Qur'an 5:41 "Whomever Allah wants to deceive you cannot help. Allah does not want them to know the truth because he intends to disgrace them and then torture them."

This portrays God as a megalomaniac sadist with no other purpose in creating some humans than to torture them. That is ludicrous.

Qur'an 13:27 "Say, God leads whosoever He wills astray."
God does not lead any astray. He calls all to repentance for it is His will that none should perish. It never ceases to amaze me that Islam teaches that God is so powerful that free will doesn't exist but rather our decisions and actions are part of His pre-determined will but He can't love us so much that He would come down in the form of a man to be an atoning sacrafice for us.

And let us not forget the all important verse of abrogation

Qur'an 2:106 "Whenever We cancel a verse or throw it into oblivion, We bring one which is better"

For you to use that verse from Numbers as authorative then you must admit that God does not LIE. If that is the case, and we both know it is, then how do you reconcile this with the decietful nature attributed to Him in the koran? God does not willingly lead anyone astray. If they are astray it is because they leaned to man's understanding instead of His. God would never cancel His word. He may give a fuller understanding as He did when He manifested Himself as Jesus but He would never cancel it. The OT must be understood through the scope of the NT. God set up His people as a type and shadow of better things, and likewise His law was a type and shadow of its' own fulfillment in Christ.

God said be and he is . Jesus was sent by God to fulfill the Torah and ten commandment of Moses . but Paul came and cancelled the law of Moses .

Yes, God caused Jesus to be.

beget-to cause or help to bring forth

See what a tight spot an illiterate prophet gets you in? As for Paul he did not cancel anything. He proclaimed the same message that Jesus did. That we are free of the curse of the law by faith through Jesus in God. That God in His mercy forgives our sins and gives us the strength to sin less as we mature in Christ.

Why christian not follow the law of moses ? Why christian not follow Jesus and the Law ?

Why don't you? Have you taken your lamb to Jerusalem for the passover yet? That is but 1 of 613 commandments. When you get that covered get back to me. As for your second statement Jesus taught that the law is fulfilled by loving God with everything we have first and loving others as ourselves second.

Why does christian eats Pork , not circumscise , have sex outside marriage ( boy and girl friends ) . why they use idoels of Mary and Jesus?

Some Christians do not. Some do. Jesus taught that it isn't what we ate that made us unclean but rather what we allowed to harbor in our hearts. Out of our hearts come all manner of sin. Not eating pork doesn't do much for that my friend. If you stand before God and have not allowed Jesus to stand in your place as judgement is passed I don't think God will let it slide because you didn't eat bacon. Same for circumcision.

Show me a passage from any part of the Bible and especially the NT that Christians are commanded or even believe fornication is acceptable. And you are equating Catholics with Christian. I do not nor have I ever bowed down to any idol. However I understand that muslims bow down to a black rock 5 times a day. Explain why that is and you may understand why Catholics bow down to statues of Mary.

Good luck and God bless
   
« Last Edit: May 11, 2017, 08:55:53 AM by PeteWaldo »
Doth that man love his Lord who would be willing to see Jesus wearing a crown of thorns, while for himself he craves a chaplet of laurel? Shall Jesus ascend to his throne by the cross, and do we expect to be carried there on the shoulders of applauding crowds? Charles H. Spurgeon

Peter

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Re: Jesus is not God .
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2010, 09:23:53 AM »
In numbers - God is not Man or Son of a man .
so Jesus is not God .

Num 23:19    God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do [it]? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

In the context of this verse, the Hebrew means that God is not of, or from, a human being the way that the rest of human beings have been born - after Eve.
While Muslims and Christians all understand that a human being named Mary was used as a vessel in which Jesus was conceived, Muslims and Christians also both agree that Mary's conception of Jesus Christ was strictly by the hand of God, unlike any human being in the history of mankind.

neither the son
Old Testament Hebrew Definition:
01121 ben {bane}
from 01129; TWOT - 254; n m
AV - son 2978, children 1568, old 135, first 51, man 20, young 18,
young + 01241 17, child 10, stranger 10, people 5, misc 92; 4906
1) son, grandson, child, member of a group
1a) son, male child
1b) grandson
1c) children (pl. - male and female)
1d) youth, young men (pl.)
1e) young (of animals)
1f) sons (as characterisation, i.e. sons of injustice [for un-
righteous men] or sons of God [for angels]
1g) people (of a nation) (pl.)
1h) of lifeless things, i.e. sparks, stars, arrows (fig.)
1i) a member of a guild, order, class

of man
Old Testament Hebrew Definition:
0120 'adam {aw-dawm'}
from 0119; TWOT - 25a; n m
AV - man 408, men 121, Adam 13, person(s) 8, common sort + 07230 1,
hypocrite 1; 552
1) man, mankind
1a) man, human being
1b) man, mankind (much more frequently intended sense in OT)
1c) Adam, first man
1d) city in Jordan valley

Neither does God lie, or need to repent because He is sorry about what He has done, because he is not human.

In Old Testament prophecy

Isaiah 53:5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. 9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth.

New Testament fulfillment

1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Pe&c=2&t=KJV#21

Jesus is sinless
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1048.0

Compare that with Mohammed and his "Allah" who declared himself the greatest of deceivers
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=53.0

Peter

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Re: Jesus is not God .
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2010, 12:49:23 PM »
Now can I ask a question of you?

In a YouTube search I see you are heavily represented in teaching about Paran and Mecca
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=paran+mecca&aq=f

We have chatted about this in the past but there is one particular unanswered question to which I would appreciate a reply. Could you please respond on that subject video here?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1256.15