Below is a list of quotes from some of the most influential men in the formation of the United States of America. The reason for this list is to point out the large oversight on the part of many Americans when they buy into the idea that the country's founders established a "seperation of Church and State". If that had indeed been their intention it stood in stark contrast to their beliefs on government and specifically how the U.S.A. should be ran. Whether citizens of the US are willing to admit it or not they owe a debt of gratitude to Christianity for the freedoms they so often claim to be defending when they bash Christianity.
John Adams and John Hancock:
We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775]
John Adams:
" The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."
"[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty."
John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798
"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson
"Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell." [John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817]
Samuel Adams: | Portrait of Sam Adams
"He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all"Our forefathers opened the Bible to all." [ "American Independence," August 1, 1776. Speech delivered at the State House in Philadelphia]
" Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, unite their endeavors to renovate the age by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls, inculcating in the minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity and leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system." [October 4, 1790]
John Quincy Adams:
"Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the Fourth of July]?" "Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"?
--1837, at the age of 69, when he delivered a Fourth of July speech at Newburyport, Massachusetts.
"The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code."
John Quincy Adams. Letters to his son. p. 61
Elias Boudinot: | Portrait of Elias Boudinot
" Be religiously careful in our choice of all public officers . . . and judge of the tree by its fruits."
Charles Carroll - signer of the Declaration of Independence | Portrait of Charles Carroll
" Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments." [Source: To James McHenry on November 4, 1800.]
Benjamin Franklin: | Portrait of Ben Franklin
" God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel" "Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech
"In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?" [Constitutional Convention, Thursday June 28, 1787]
In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."
In 1787 when Franklin helped found Benjamin Franklin University, it was dedicated as "a nursery of religion and learning, built on Christ, the Cornerstone."
Alexander Hamilton:
"The Christian Constitutional Society, its object is first: The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States."
On July 12, 1804 at his death, Hamilton said, "I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me."
"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests." [1787 after the Constitutional Convention]
"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."
John Hancock:
"In circumstances as dark as these, it becomes us, as Men and Christians, to reflect that whilst every prudent measure should be taken to ward off the impending judgments, at the same time all confidence must be withheld from the means we use; and reposed only on that God rules in the armies of Heaven, and without His whole blessing, the best human counsels are but foolishness Resolved; Thursday the 11th of May to humble themselves before God under the heavy judgments felt and feared, to confess the sins that have deserved them, to implore the Forgiveness of all our transgressions, and a spirit of repentance and reformation and a Blessing on the Union of the American Colonies in Defense of their Rights [for which hitherto we desire to thank Almighty God]That the people of Great Britain and their rulers may have their eyes opened to discern the things that shall make for the peace of the nation for the redress of America's many grievances, the restoration of all her invaded liberties, and their security to the latest generations.
"A Day of Fasting, Humiliation and Prayer, with a total abstinence from labor and recreation. Proclamation on April 15, 1775"
Patrick Henry:
"Orator of the Revolution."
" This is all the inheritance I can give my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed."
"The Last Will and Testament of Patrick Henry
"It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here." [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]
"The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed."
John Jay:
" Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." Source: October 12, 1816. The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry P. Johnston, ed., (New York: Burt Franklin, 1970), Vol. IV, p. 393.
"Whether our religion permits Christians to vote for infidel rulers is a question which merits more consideration than it seems yet to have generally received either from the clergy or the laity. It appears to me that what the prophet said to Jehoshaphat about his attachment to Ahab ["Shouldest thou help the ungodly and love them that hate the Lord?" 2 Chronicles 19:2] affords a salutary lesson." [The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, 1794-1826, Henry P. Johnston, editor (New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1893), Vol. IV, p.365]
Thomas Jefferson:
" The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man."
"Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus."
"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."
"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever." (excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital) [Source: Merrill . D. Peterson, ed., Jefferson Writings, (New York: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), Vol. IV, p. 289. From Jefferson's Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, 1781.]
Samuel Johnston:
"It is apprehended that Jews, Mahometans (Muslims), pagans, etc., may be elected to high offices under the government of the United States. Those who are Mahometans, or any others who are not professors of the Christian religion, can never be elected to the office of President or other high office, [unless] first the people of America lay aside the Christian religion altogether, it may happen. Should this unfortunately take place, the people will choose such men as think as they do themselves.
[Elliot's Debates, Vol. IV, pp 198-199, Governor Samuel Johnston, July 30, 1788 at the North Carolina Ratifying Convention]
James Madison
" We've staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart."
"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We've staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God." [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]
"I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion or against temporal enjoyments, even the most rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare the unsatisfactoriness [of temportal enjoyments] by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this way.
Letter by Madison to William Bradford (September 25, 1773)
" An Act for the relief of the Bible Society of Philadelphia" Approved February 2, 1813 by Congress
"It is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity toward each other."
"A watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest, while we are building ideal monuments of renown and bliss here, we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven."
[Letter by Madison to William Bradford [urging him to make sure of his own salvation] November 9, 1772]
James McHenry - Signer of the Constitution
Public utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefulness. In vain, without the Bible, we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses, and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience.
Jedediah Morse:
"To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. . . . Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow from them, must fall with them."
The following is especially relevant for the removing of religious activities in schools
Thomas Paine:
" It has been the error of the schools to teach astronomy, and all the other sciences, and subjects of natural philosophy, as accomplishments only; whereas they should be taught theologically, or with reference to the Being who is the author of them: for all the principles of science are of divine origin. Man cannot make, or invent, or contrive principles: he can only discover them; and he ought to look through the discovery to the Author."
" The evil that has resulted from the error of the schools, in teaching natural philosophy as an accomplishment only, has been that of generating in the pupils a species of atheism. Instead of looking through the works of creation to the Creator himself, they stop short, and employ the knowledge they acquire to create doubts of his existence. They labour with studied ingenuity to ascribe every thing they behold to innate properties of matter, and jump over all the rest by saying, that matter is eternal." "The Existence of God--1810"
Benjamin Rush:
"I lament that we waste so much time and money in punishing crimes and take so little pains to prevent them-we neglect the only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government; that is, the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by means of the Bible; for this Divine Book, above all others, constitutes the soul of republicanism." "By withholding the knowledge of [the Scriptures] from children, we deprive ourselves of the best means of awakening moral sensibility in their minds." [Letter written (1790's) in Defense of the Bible in all schools in America]
"Christianity is the only true and perfect religion."
"If moral precepts alone could have reformed mankind, the mission of the Son of God into our world would have been unnecessary."
"Let the children who are sent to those schools be taught to read and write and above all, let both sexes be carefully instructed in the principles and obligations of the Christian religion. This is the most essential part of education"
Letters of Benjamin Rush, "To the citizens of Philadelphia: A Plan for Free Schools", March 28, 1787
Justice Joseph Story:
" I verily believe Christianity necessary to the support of civil society. One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that Christianity is a part of the Common Law. . . There never has been a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying its foundations."
[Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States p. 593]
" Infidels and pagans were banished from the halls of justice as unworthy of credit." [Life and letters of Joseph Story, Vol. II 1851, pp. 8-9.]
" At the time of the adoption of the constitution, and of the amendment to it, now under consideration [i.e., the First Amendment], the general, if not the universal sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the state, so far as was not incompatible with the private rights of conscience, and the freedom of religious worship."
[Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States p. 593]
Noah Webster:
" The duties of men are summarily comprised in the Ten Commandments, consisting of two tables; one comprehending the duties which we owe immediately to God-the other, the duties we owe to our fellow men."
"In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed...No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people."
[Source: 1828, in the preface to his American Dictionary of the English Language]
Let it be impressed on your mind that God commands you to choose for rulers just men who will rule in the fear of God [Exodus 18:21]. . . . If the citizens neglect their duty and place unprincipled men in office, the government will soon be corrupted . . . If our government fails to secure public prosperity and happiness, it must be because the citizens neglect the Divine commands, and elect bad men to make and administer the laws. [Noah Webster, The History of the United States (New Haven: Durrie and Peck, 1832), pp. 336-337, 49]
"All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible." [Noah Webster. History. p. 339]
"The Bible was America's basic textbook
in all fields." [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5]
"Education is useless without the Bible" [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5 ]
George Washington:
Farewell Address: The name of American, which belongs to you, in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of Patriotism, more than any appellation derived from local discriminations. With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion" ...and later: "...reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle..."
" It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible."
"What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ." [speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779]
"To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian" [May 2, 1778, at Valley Forge]
"Although guided by our excellent Constitution in the discharge of official duties, and actuated, through the whole course of my public life, solely by a wish to promote the best interests of our country; yet, without the beneficial interposition of the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, we could not have reached the distinguished situation which we have attained with such unprecedented rapidity. To HIM, therefore, should we bow with gratitude and reverence, and endeavor to merit a continuance of HIS special favors". [1797 letter to John Adams]
James Wilson:
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution
Supreme Court Justice appointed by George Washington
Spoke 168 times during the Constitutional Convention
http://www.eadshome.com/QuotesoftheFounders.htm
Great topic!
Thank you and I welcome any and all to continue to add to this list of quotes. It would help present a most devestating case against the "BIG LIE".
Let me start by saying that anyone who trusts faith more than reason or logic, in my opinion has closed his mind to new knowledge. I belive when that happens we begin to die. Merriam-Webster defines faith as believing in something for which there is no proof. Reason is defined as the power of comprehending, infering, or thinking in orderly rational ways. I beleive that in the earliest cognitave thoughts of man, he realized in order to have a civil society there needed to be a mechanism for a common moral authority i.e. religion in ANY culture. Furthermore, I believe that religion of any sort, was concieved by man in order to cope with mortality. We are told by our religious leaders, the bible (and all of it's variations), the torah and the koran that if we, the belivers, submit to the authoritarian rule of our religion then we will go to a better place when we die. If that is the case, why don't we all kill ourselves? I am not advocating sucide, nor harm to ANYONE. That was simply meant to be a thought provoking statement.
The authors of religion had already thought this logic through and put a cleaver little clause in there.
We must all use the strength of our minds to decide what words are gods, and what words are the fabrications of man.
(disappeared then restored from database)
“In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one; of the first things in which all children, under a free government; ought to be instructed...No truth is more evident to my mind than; that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government; intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.â€
[Source: 1828, in the preface to his American Dictionary of the English; Language]
This man contradicts himself in the same sententce.; How could it be a "free"; government if everyone is required to submit to one religion?
Quote from: Nick on June 14, 2010, 05:29:53 PM
This man contradicts himself in the same sententce. How could it be a "free" government if everyone is required to submit to one religion?
Hi Nick, and welcome to the forum! :)
Where did he indicate that everyone should be "required to submit to one religion"?
I am snowbaordguru on youtube btw,
By saying the christian religion is the most imortant religion. it may be the most imortanat religion to christians, but not so much to any person of another religion. Where is the freedom to chose your own religion, and your freedom from religious oppression? That is not a "free" government, if you do not have the right to religion of your choice; what ever it may be.
This guy sounds like a dictator, would the national religion be christianity? Would I be killed or jailed under this man ideology if I did not worship the christian god?
Quote from: Nick on June 14, 2010, 06:02:38 PM
I am snowbaordguru on youtube btw,
By saying the christian religion is the most imortant religion. it may be the most imortanat religion to christians, but not so much to any person of another religion.
Do you understand what the purpose of his preface was? To make sure you knew that he was expressing his personal opinion.
Do you know anything about Christianity?
Have you ever read the Gospel?
Quote from: Nick on June 14, 2010, 06:02:38 PM
Where is the freedom to chose your own religion, and your freedom from religious oppression? That is not a "free" government, if you do not have the right to religion of your choice; what ever it may be. That is not a "free" government, if you do not have the right to religion of your choice; what ever it may be.
This guy sounds like a dictator, would the national religion be christianity? Would I be killed or jailed under this man ideology if I did not worship the christian god?
You are doing nothing more than embellishing on your prior false premise, as though I never wrote a reply.
Why don't you go back, and quote my first reply to you, and provide an answer to my question? Then we can go on from there.
The only requirement we impose on our members is to engage in
DIAlog. In and
exchange.
this was my answer for your first question.
"By saying the christian religion is the most imortant religion. it may be the most imortanat religion to christians, but not so much to any person of another religion. Where is the freedom to chose your own religion, and your freedom from religious oppression? That is not a "free" government, if you do not have the right to religion of your choice; what ever it may be.
This guy sounds like a dictator, would the national religion be christianity? Would I be killed or jailed under this man ideology if I did not worship the christian god?"
your questions: Do you know anything about Christianity?
Have you ever read the Gospel?
I know as much about christianity and the gospel as a childhood of church and sunday school every sunday could teach me, in a diciples of christ church. Why do you ask?
Quote from: Nick on June 14, 2010, 07:16:37 PM
this was my answer for your first question.
"By saying the christian religion is the most imortant religion. it may be the most imortanat religion to christians, but not so much to any person of another religion. Where is the freedom to chose your own religion, .......
It is guaranteed under our constitution.
Quote from: Nick on June 14, 2010, 07:16:37 PM........ and your freedom from religious oppression?
The very thing our forefathers fled, and were determined to make sure did not happen again, by prohibiting the
federal government from establishing a state church - like the Church of England that they fled.
Quote from: Nick on June 14, 2010, 07:16:37 PMThat is not a "free" government, if you do not have the right to religion of your choice; what ever it may be.
Free exercise of religion is guaranteed under the first amendment of our constitution, however, over the last half century, it has been increasingly under attack by our corrupt Federal courts.
Quote from: Nick on June 14, 2010, 07:16:37 PM
This guy sounds like a dictator, would the national religion be christianity?
Ignorance to our founding is the only way you could have asked that question.
Quote from: Nick on June 14, 2010, 07:16:37 PMWould I be killed or jailed under this man ideology if I did not worship the christian god?"
Now you are a false accuser. He no more said that the people should worship the "christian god" as you put it, than he did that Christianity should be our national religion.
So what
did he write?
"No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government ......"
"..... the
basis of any
government....."
The
basis of any government that was
intended to do what?
"..... intended to secure the rights and privileges .........."
Where do our rights come from?
Quote from: Nick on June 14, 2010, 07:34:29 PM
your questions: Do you know anything about Christianity?
Have you ever read the Gospel?
I know as much about christianity and the gospel as a childhood of church and sunday school every sunday could teach me, in a diciples of christ church. Why do you ask?
Well because if you didn't even know what the guy is talking about, it would be a little peculiar that you would be so opinionated.
What is the most important thing that the Gospel teaches?
"Where do our rights come from?"
Man has no rights untill law establishes them.
"So can you summarize Christianity? What is the most important thing that the Gospel teaches?"
There are two differnet answers here; the summary of christianity is the golden rule(do unto others), the most important lesson that the gospel teaches is...the golden rule. Fundamentalist would say that the most important thing would be the spread of christianity.
"No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government ......"
"..... the basis of any government....."
Can you tell me the difference between a Christian government and a government based on Christianity?
Quote from: Nick on June 14, 2010, 07:53:24 PM
"Where do our rights come from?"
Man has no rights untill law establishes them.
Certainly the source as understood by brutal secular authoritarian dictatorships. But we saw how well that worked out for the Soviet Union didn't we?
Certainly our forefathers were of a very different view as to the source of our rights.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1241.0
Quote from: Nick on June 14, 2010, 07:53:24 PM
"So can you summarize Christianity? What is the most important thing that the Gospel teaches?"
There are two differnet answers here; the summary of christianity is the golden rule(do unto others), the most important lesson that the gospel teaches is...the golden rule. Fundamentalist would say that the most important thing would be the spread of christianity.
Lies seem to flow effortlessly from your lips.
The fact is that scripture is more important to
fundamentalists than any other Christian group. Without fundamentalists protecting scripture over the last 3500 years it would be unrecognizable today.
Here is what fundamentalists understand from scripture.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Quote from: Nick on June 14, 2010, 07:57:21 PM
"No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government ......"
"..... the basis of any government....."
Can you tell me the difference between a Christian government and a government based on Christianity?
A government
based on Christian principles begins, as ours did, by understanding that all of our rights come from God. Our forefathers realized that the most important function of our Federal Government was to create a body of law that prevented it from infringing, on those God-given rights.
Now folks in lots of religions believe they worship God. It just so happened that the majority of our forefathers received their understanding from scripture. Even though several were deists, even they also understood the benefit of preserving rights given to us by God in accordance with Christian principles taught through the Gospel, and ruled by men that believed they would be judged and held accountable for eternity, by the very same God that gave us our rights.
I have to join my wife, but will be happy to begin again in the morning. May God bless you.
"By saying the christian religion is the most imortant religion. it may be the most imortanat religion to christians, but not so much to any person of another religion. Where is the freedom to chose your own religion, .......
your answer was: "It is guaranteed under our constitution."
Exactly my point, ironicly enough; thank god Noah Webster did not write our constiution
To further my last point, weren't our "rights" given to us by the "bill of rights?", not the constitution?
Can god enslave man? Physically enslave man? The answer is "no", I assume, since god is not a physical being, able to directly affect the actions or state of a human being. By the laws of physics, god would not be able to grant us any rights, because he can not take them away. If he cannot take away our rights, certainly he could not give them to you in the first place.
Laws governing man are what give humanity it's rights. Man can enslave man, thus taking his rights from him. Because man can take away mans rights, doesn't that mean human rights come from humans?
If russia for exaple invaded the U.S. and made all of it's people slaves, would god grant the people of the U.S. freedom? Or would it take the actions of man to liberate the enslaved?
To Peter-
Thanks for putting up so far with my opinions. I hope they are not offencive, that is not the intention of my opinions. I will have class tomorrow untill a little after noon, i'll be back then to get some more action! ;D
Quote from: Nick on June 14, 2010, 08:51:48 PM
"By saying the christian religion is the most imortant religion. it may be the most imortanat religion to christians, but not so much to any person of another religion. Where is the freedom to chose your own religion, .......
Context please. The most important as "the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people."
Godless men do Godless things to other men. History is full of examples.
Whereas the God faring men that established our country wanted to establish our Republic in a manner consistent with what God would want, as they understood, through scripture.
Some today might hold that it would have been better to have chosen guidance from the god of Mohammed instead of the God of the Gospel.
Surah 9.29
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
Doesn't strike me as the kind of god whose laws would provide a sound "basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people." How about to you?
This is what Webster meant when he emphasized a basis in Christian principles as being important to securing those rights.
Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment. 31 And the second [is] like, [namely] this,
Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.Do Christians love our neighbors by imposing a religion on them and forcing them to comply? Of course not.
Is that how Christians are instructed that others will receive Jesus Christ?
Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. 7
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.All we can do is lead the horse to water. To show them the love of God through Jesus Christ.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=55.0
Which do you believe to be the "more important" between these two faiths as "the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people."
Does that strike you as the kind of faith about which you need ask "Would I be killed or jailed under this man ideology if I did not worship the christian god?"
All you have really expressed here is your ignorance regarding Christianity, which really renders this discussion pointless.
Quote from: Nick on June 14, 2010, 08:51:48 PMyour answer was: "It is guaranteed under our constitution."
Exactly my point, ironicly enough; thank god Noah Webster did not write our constiution
Now you are simply allowing your ego to take over rather than understand how your initial impression could have been wrong. You made no case in your false accusations against Webster as your absurd notion that his goal was to require men "to submit to one religion?"
or your ridiculous suggestion that "This guy sounds like a dictator, would the national religion be christianity? Would I be killed or jailed under this man ideology if I did not worship the christian god?"
Quote from: Nick on June 14, 2010, 08:51:48 PM
"By saying the christian religion is the most imortant religion. it may be the most imortanat religion to christians, but not so much to any person of another religion. Where is the freedom to chose your own religion, .......
your answer was: "It is guaranteed under our constitution."
Exactly my point, ironicly enough; thank god Noah Webster did not write our constiution
There was nothing in the quote from Webster that was inconsistent with our founding principles.
Maybe this will help. Would you rather your government be established by men that believed that they would stand in judgment before the very same God that they believe gave humankind our rights, and would be held accountable for eternity based on their stewardship of those rights......
or would you rather your government was established by men who believed that they themselves - and those to whom they assigned rights to participate - were the only judges of their decisions, while at the same time they believed that the consequences of their actions did not extend beyond their days on this earth?
Quote from: Nick on June 14, 2010, 09:06:08 PM
To further my last point, weren't our "rights" given to us by the "bill of rights?", not the constitution?
The Bill of Rights is composed of amendments to our Constitution.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1479.0
Quote from: Nick on June 14, 2010, 09:06:08 PMCan god enslave man?
Men almost invariably enslave men when they are Godless. It has been steadily on the increase over the last hundred years in the U.S. as well, in the form of our income tax, for example.
"None are more hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe that they are free" - Johann W. Goethe
Quote from: Nick on June 14, 2010, 09:06:08 PMPhysically enslave man? The answer is "no", I assume, since god is not a physical being, able to directly affect the actions or state of a human being. By the laws of physics, god would not be able to grant us any rights, because he can not take them away. If he cannot take away our rights, certainly he could not give them to you in the first place.
God faring men understand the rights God gave us through the filter of scripture.
Imagine a world where all humanity observed two simple principles for example.
1. You do what you say you are going to do
2. You don't do anything that infringes on anybody else's rights.
Those principles aren't expressly spelled out in the Gospel as laws to run governments by. The question is as to whether they are consistent with it. Nobody has to be a Christian, Jew or Hindu to understand the value to a society in which everyone observed those two simple principles.
Quote from: Nick on June 14, 2010, 09:06:08 PM
Laws governing man are what give humanity it's rights.
Laws governing man are what give Russians, Vietnamese and Cubans their rights - not U.S. citizens, though our government increasingly ignores that.
Our laws are intended to protect us from having our God-given rights infringed upon.
If you would like to live in a secular state I would encourage you to move to China, Russia, Vietnam, Cuba, Cambodia (or whatever it is called now) and many more like Iraq was formerly.
All well recognized bastions of protection of human rights, aren't they?
Quote from: Nick on June 14, 2010, 09:06:08 PMMan can enslave man, thus taking his rights from him.
That's exactly what secular states do. Take away mankind's God-given rights.
Quote from: Nick on June 14, 2010, 09:06:08 PMBecause man can take away mans rights, doesn't that mean human rights come from humans?
If russia for exaple invaded the U.S. and made all of it's people slaves, would god grant the people of the U.S. freedom? Or would it take the actions of man to liberate the enslaved?
That is what our forefathers included the second amendment to mitigate. Men taking away our God-given rights.
"Men almost invariably enslave men when they are Godless."
During the christian crusades, christians enslaved man, yes?
Would that have made the christians "godless?"
I could not find the qoute I was looking for but it was something to the effect of Man has commited countless atrocities in the name of God.
Quote from: Nick on June 15, 2010, 02:54:13 PM
"Men almost invariably enslave men when they are Godless."
During the christian crusades, christians enslaved man, yes?
Would that have made the christians "godless?"
There has been no shortage of posers parading around pretending to be Christians, throughout the Christian era. Satan inspires such behavior so that the lost will blame Jesus Christ, for things like the Roman Church misadventure that you cite.
Even though, through the brief snippets of the Gospel I have shared with you so far, a person being honest with themselves could easily judge that the only way a Christian could enslave someone, is if they truly believed that they would be happy if the circumstance was the reverse.
Quote from: Nick on June 15, 2010, 02:54:13 PM
I could not find the qoute I was looking for but it was something to the effect of Man has commited countless atrocities in the name of God.
Without question they did, and in the name of God. The question is, were they God's people? Were they following God?
The answer, as you can judge from the verses in just this thread, is an unequivocal no.
Take for example the Roman Church murder of Muslims, Jews AND CHRISTIANS.
Here's a good video
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=484.0
Why do you suppose it is that you desire to see the Gospel, as the direct opposite, of what it actually is?Can you provide a list of Christian perpetrated atrocities from over the last 2,000 years?
Not those by Christian posers, but those whose actions were sanctioned by, and consistent with, the Gospel.
"Even though, through the brief snippets of the Gospel I have shared with you so far, a person being honest with themselves could easily judge that the only way a Christian could enslave someone, is if they truly believed that they would be happy if the circumstance was the reverse."
You are under the false asumtion that I believe that scripture is fact. This is they very thing I am talking about. You cannot present the scripture to some one as fact, when the person you are presenting it to does not believe it is fact. I belive the scriptures, over time, have been a concoction of man to please his own agenda for power and authority(moral). My dispute is with the scriptures actually being fact, and not a constucton of man.
"There has been no shortage of posers parading around pretending to be Christians"
Exactly, how do you prove who is the poser and what words are sincere. For all I know you could be a poser just the same.
You should really want to avoid calling people names and judging them, being a christian and all. (you called me a liar twice), (you judged I was not being honest with myself, what reason do I have to lie about my opinions?)
"Laws governing man are what give Russians, Vietnamese and Cubans their rights - not U.S. citizens, though our government increasingly ignores that.
Our laws are intended to protect us from having our God-given rights infringed upon."
Why does the bill of rights, created and authored by man, even exist, if all of our rights are given and protected by god?
What are the god given rights, in your opinion?
Quote from: Nick on June 15, 2010, 04:33:09 PM
"Even though, through the brief snippets of the Gospel I have shared with you so far, a person being honest with themselves could easily judge that the only way a Christian could enslave someone, is if they truly believed that they would be happy if the circumstance was the reverse."
You are under the false asumtion that I believe that scripture is fact.
Not at all. I presumed you were in that elite 4% of the U.S. that is too smart to believe that God exists.
As part of that elite you should be more concerned about Islamic expansion than any other group.
Quote from: Nick on June 15, 2010, 04:33:09 PMThis is they very thing I am talking about. You cannot present the scripture to some one as fact, when the person you are presenting it to does not believe it is fact.
You were falsely accusing Christians based on your ignorance of what we believe, and so I showed you
how that was false on the basis of
what Christians believe.
Quote from: Nick on June 15, 2010, 04:33:09 PMI belive the scriptures, over time, have been a concoction of man to please his own agenda for power and authority(moral). My dispute is with the scriptures actually being fact, and not a constucton of man.
What you wish to believe is up to you. However the sheer volume of partial or complete manuscripts, as well as the Daniel scroll in the Dead Sea Scrolls, for example, confirm otherwise.
http://beholdthebeast.com/bible_manuscript_errors_.htm
Quote from: Nick on June 15, 2010, 04:33:09 PM
"There has been no shortage of posers parading around pretending to be Christians"
Exactly, how do you prove who is the poser and what words are sincere.
By judging in the light of scripture, which you can't, because you aren't seeking truth.
Quote from: Nick on June 15, 2010, 04:33:09 PMFor all I know you could be a poser just the same.
That's why I let the scriptures speak for me.
"Not at all. I presumed you were in that elite 4% of the U.S. that is too smart to believe that God exists.
As part of that elite you should be more concerned about Islamic expansion than any other group."
This conversation is over, I do not tolerate being mocked by someone who decides to believe in something there are no facts supporting, only information you construe to be "factual", to support your "faith."
"You were falsely accusing Christians based on your ignorance"
You support my belief that most christians are not christ-like at all, Jesus would not have insulted me as many time as you have.
"By judging in the light of scripture, which you can't, because you aren't seeking truth."
You are seeking truth in a "scripture" that man wrote. You chose to believe in the words of man, that is your choice, do not insult strangers to make yourself feel better, or smarter. I have been nothing but civil and yet, even when I bring your attention to the matter, before now, you choose to ignore my requests at a civil conversation.
Quote from: Nick on June 15, 2010, 05:57:31 PM
"Not at all. I presumed you were in that elite 4% of the U.S. that is too smart to believe that God exists.
As part of that elite you should be more concerned about Islamic expansion than any other group."
This conversation is over, I do not tolerate being mocked by someone who decides to believe in something there are no facts supporting, only information you construe to be "factual", to support your "faith."
I was simply pointing out that there seems to be at least enough evidence, in whatever form, for the other 96% of us in the U.S. that believe there is a God.
Regarding why you should be concerned about Islamic expansion they have a history of "tolerating" Jews and Christians as long as they pay the tax of the enslaved, and follow their oppressive rules (that Christians can't), but in the case of agnostics and atheists and those of other religions, they simply exterminate them.
Quote from: Nick on June 15, 2010, 05:57:31 PM
"You were falsely accusing Christians based on your ignorance"
You support my belief that most christians are not christ-like at all, Jesus would not have insulted me as many time as you have.
Again, context. That wasn't a hurled epithet, but rather an observation. Are you ignorant about the Gospel or not? Yes or no?
Have you ever even read the Gospel?
Quote from: Nick on June 15, 2010, 05:57:31 PM"By judging in the light of scripture, which you can't, because you aren't seeking truth."
You are seeking truth in a "scripture" that man wrote.
Men that were inspired by God.
Quote from: Nick on June 15, 2010, 05:57:31 PMYou chose to believe in the words of man, that is your choice, do not insult strangers to make yourself feel better, or smarter.
Then how would you explain your group? Don't you believe that you deny God exists because of your intellect?
Quote from: Nick on June 15, 2010, 05:57:31 PMI have been nothing but civil and yet, even when I bring your attention to the matter, before now, you choose to ignore my requests at a civil conversation.
2012-08-24 - ACTS OF BIBLICAL HOSTILITY BY PRESIDENT OBAMA
David Barton of Wallbuilders.com <http://wallbuilders.com/> has come out with a list explaining why Barack Obama is the most Biblically hostile President of all time. While most of these stories have been seen before, seeing them all laid out in one list is pretty astonishing.
1. ACTS OF HOSTILITY TOWARD PEOPLE OF BIBLICAL FAITH:
a. April 2008 - Obama speaks disrespectfully of Christians, saying they “cling to guns or religion†and have an “antipathy to people who aren’t like them.â€
b. February 2009 - Obama announces plans to revoke conscience protection for health workers who refuse to participate in medical activities that go against their beliefs, and fully implements the plan in February 2011.
c. April 2009 - When speaking at Georgetown University, Obama orders that a monogram symbolizing Jesus’ name be covered when he is making his speech.
d. May 2009 - Obama declines to host services for the National Prayer Day (a day established by federal law) at the White House.
e. April 2009 - In a deliberate act of disrespect, Obama nominated three pro-abortion ambassadors to the Vatican; of course, the pro-life Vatican rejected all three.
f. October 19, 2010 - Obama begins deliberately omitting the phrase about “the Creator†when quoting the Declaration of Independence - an omission he has made on no less then 7 occasions.
g. November 2010 - Obama misquotes the National Motto, saying it is “E pluribus Unum†rather than “In God We Trust†as established by federal law.
h. January 2011 - After a federal law was passed to transfer a WWI Memorial in the Mojave Desert to private ownership, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the cross in the memorial could continue to stand, but the Obama administration refused to allow the land to be transferred as required by law, and refused to allow the cross to be re-erected as ordered by the Court.
i. February 2011 - Although he filled posts in the State Department, for more than two years Obama did not fill the post of religious freedom ambassador, an official that works against religious persecution across the world; he filled it only after heavy pressure from the public and from Congress.
j. April 2011 - For the first time in American history, Obama urges passage of a non-discrimination law that does not contain hiring protections for religious groups, forcing religious organizations to hire according to federal mandates without regard to the dictates of their own faith, thus eliminating conscience protection in hiring.
k. August 2011 - The Obama administration releases its new health care rules that override religious conscience protections for medical workers in the areas of abortion and contraception.
l. November 2011 - Obama opposes inclusion of President Franklin Roosevelt’s famous D-Day Prayer in the WWII Memorial.
m. November 2011 - Unlike previous presidents, Obama studiously avoids any religious references in his Thanksgiving speech.
n. December 2011 - The Obama administration denigrates other countries’ religious beliefs as an obstacle to radical homosexual rights.
o. January 2012 - The Obama administration argues that the First Amendment provides no protection for churches and synagogues in hiring their pastors and rabbis.
p. February 2012 - The Obama administration forgives student loans in exchange for public service, but announces it will no longer forgive student loans if the public service is related to religion.
2. ACTS OF HOSTILITY FROM THE OBAMA-LED MILITARY TOWARD PEOPLE OF BIBLICAL FAITH
a. June 2011 - The Department of Veteran Affairs forbids references to God and Jesus during burial ceremonies at Houston National Cemetery.
b. August 2011 - The Air Force stops teaching the Just War theory to officers in California because the course is taught by chaplains and is based on a philosophy introduced by St. Augustine in the third century AD - a theory long taught by civilized nations across the world (except America).
c. September 2011 - Air Force Chief of Staff prohibits commanders from notifying airmen of programs and services available to them from chaplains.
d. September 2011 -The Army issues guidelines for Walter Reed Medical Center stipulating that “No religious items (i.e. Bible, reading materials and/or facts) are allowed to be given away or used during a visitâ€
e. November 2011 - The Air Force Academy rescinds support for Operation Christmas Child, a program to send holiday gifts to impoverished children across the world, because the program is run by a Christian charity.
f. November 2011 - The Air Force Academy pays $80,000 to add a Stonehenge-like worship center for pagans, druids, witches and Wiccans.
g. February 2012 - The Air Force removes “God†from the patch of Rapid Capabilities Office (the word on the patch was in Latin: Dei).
h. February 2012 - The Army orders Catholic chaplains not to read a letter to parishioners that their archbishop asked them to read.
3. ACTS OF HOSTILITY TOWARD BIBLICAL VALUES:
a. January 2009 - Obama lifts restrictions on US government funding for groups that provide abortion services or counseling abroad, forcing taxpayers to fund pro-abortion groups that either promote or perform abortions in other nations.
b. January 2009 - President Obama’s nominee for deputy secretary of state asserts that American taxpayers are required to pay for abortions and that limits on abortion funding are unconstitutional
c. March 2009 - The Obama administration shut out pro-life groups from attending a White House-sponsored health care summit.
d. March 2009 - Obama orders taxpayer funding of embryonic stem cell research.
e. March 2009 - Obama gave $50 million for the UNFPA, the UN population agency that promotes abortion and works closely with Chinese population control officials who use forced abortions and involuntary sterilizations.
f. May 2009 - The White House budget eliminates all funding for abstinence-only education and replaces it with “comprehensive†sexual education, repeatedly proven to increase teen pregnancies and abortions. He continues the deletion in subsequent budgets.
g. May 2009 - Obama officials assemble a terrorism dictionary calling pro-life advocates violent and charging that they use racism in their “criminal†activities.
h. July 2009 - The Obama administration illegally extends federal benefits to same-sex partners of Foreign Service and Executive Branch employees, in direct violation of the federal Defense of Marriage Act.
i. September 16, 2009 - The Obama administration appoints as EEOC Commissioner Chai Feldblum, who asserts that society should “not tolerate†any “private beliefs,†including religious beliefs, if they negatively affect homosexual “equality.â€
j. July 2010 - The Obama administration uses federal funds in violation of federal law to get Kenya to change its constitution to include abortion.
k. August 2010 - The Obama administration Cuts funding for 176 abstinence education programs.
l. September 2010 - The Obama administration tells researchers to ignore a judge’s decision striking down federal funding for embryonic stem cell research.
m. February 2011 - Obama directs the Justice Department to stop defending the federal Defense of Marriage Act.
n. March 2011 - The Obama administration refuses to investigate videos showing Planned Parenthood helping alleged sex traffickers get abortions for victimized underage girls.
o. July 2011 - Obama allows homosexuals to serve openly in the military, reversing a policy originally instituted by George Washington in March 1778.
p. September 2011 - The Pentagon directs that military chaplains may perform same-sex marriages at military facilities in violation of the federal Defense of Marriage Act.
q. October 2011 - The Obama administration eliminates federal grants to the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops for the extensive programs that aid victims of human trafficking because the Catholic Church is anti-abortion.
4. ACTS OF PREFERENTIALISM FOR ISLAM:
a. May 2009 - While Obama does not host any National Day of Prayer event at the White House, he does host White House Iftar dinners in honor of Ramadan.
b. April 2010 - Christian leader Franklin Graham is dis-invited from the Pentagon’s National Day of Prayer Event because of complaints from the Muslim community.
c. April 2010 - The Obama administration requires rewriting of government documents and a change in administration vocabulary to remove terms that are deemed offensive to Muslims, including jihad, jihadists, terrorists, radical Islamic, etc.
d. August 2010 - Obama speaks with great praise of Islam and condescendingly of Christianity.
e. August 2010 - Obama went to great lengths to speak out on multiple occasions on behalf of building an Islamic mosque at Ground Zero, while at the same time he was silent about a Christian church being denied permission to rebuild at that location.
f. 2010 - While every White House traditionally issues hundreds of official proclamations and statements on numerous occasions, this White House avoids traditional Biblical holidays and events but regularly recognizes major Muslim holidays, as evidenced by its 2010 statements on Ramadan, Eid-ul-Fitr, Hajj, and Eid-ul-Adha.
g. October 2011 - Obama’s Muslim advisers block Middle Eastern Christians’ access to the White House.
h. February 2012 - The Obama administration makes effulgent apologies for Korans being burned by the U.S. military, but when Bibles were burned by the military, numerous reasons were offered why it was the right thing to do.
Many of these actions are literally unprecedented - this is the first time they have happened in four centuries of American history. The hostility of President Obama toward Biblical faith and values is without equal from any previous American president.
See “The Harbinger†by Jonathan Cahn to understand the seriousness for America being led from its early foundations.
Quote from: Peter on September 12, 2012, 09:29:10 AM
See “The Harbinger†by Jonathan Cahn to understand the seriousness for America being led from its early foundations.
Been a while since I've been on this board.
The Harbinger is eye opening.
Quote from: ExMilitary on January 28, 2013, 12:49:44 AM
Quote from: Peter on September 12, 2012, 09:29:10 AM
See “The Harbinger†by Jonathan Cahn to understand the seriousness for America being led from its early foundations.
Been a while since I've been on this board.
The Harbinger is eye opening.
Thanks. I just put it in my cart at amazon
Quote from: Peter on January 28, 2013, 05:08:15 AM
Thanks. I just put it in my cart at amazon
Cahn's writing style will likely get under most people's skin, but it is the meat of his message that is quite stunning.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Quote from: ExMilitary on January 28, 2013, 12:49:44 AM
Quote from: Peter on September 12, 2012, 09:29:10 AM
See “The Harbinger†by Jonathan Cahn to understand the seriousness for America being led from its early foundations.
Been a while since I've been on this board.
The Harbinger is eye opening.
Read it recently and really enjoyed it. It could have been a 5 page booklet, but perhaps the dragging out the unfolding in why it was so popular. I responded by registering "Beyond the Harbinger" to try to put the reader in Noriel's shoes rather than being an observer of his journey.
Quote from: PeteWaldo on June 07, 2013, 06:01:53 AMRead it recently and really enjoyed it. It could have been a 5 page booklet, but perhaps the dragging out the unfolding in why it was so popular. I responded by registering "Beyond the Harbinger" to try to put the reader in Noriel's shoes rather than being an observer of his journey.
Agreed a 5 page booklet. I loaned my copy out to a friend that hasn't taken the time to read it yet.
Quote from: ExMilitary on June 11, 2013, 10:04:03 PM
Quote from: PeteWaldo on June 07, 2013, 06:01:53 AMRead it recently and really enjoyed it. It could have been a 5 page booklet, but perhaps the dragging out the unfolding in why it was so popular. I responded by registering "Beyond the Harbinger" to try to put the reader in Noriel's shoes rather than being an observer of his journey.
Agreed a 5 page booklet. I loaned my copy out to a friend that hasn't taken the time to read it yet.
I thought the appeal of the book might have been in the gradually unfolding adventure. I uploaded a site to kind of mimic a tour, but involving the reader, rather than having them stand aside as an observer of another person's adventure. Incrementally moving forward.
http://www.beyondtheharbinger.com/
Quote from: PeteWaldo on June 12, 2013, 05:33:43 AM
I thought the appeal of the book might have been in the gradually unfolding adventure. I uploaded a site to kind of mimic a tour, but involving the reader, rather than having them stand aside as an observer of another person's adventure. Incrementally moving forward.
http://www.beyondtheharbinger.com/
How cool is that. Very creative (yet simple). I actually smiled when I realized what was happening.
I'll take time to go through the entire 'adventure' when I have some time to do so.
Thanks for all of your hard work on these things... I do web type stuff for a living and know how tedious it can be to create (even simple) websites.
Quote from: ExMilitary on June 12, 2013, 01:48:13 PM
Quote from: PeteWaldo on June 12, 2013, 05:33:43 AM
I thought the appeal of the book might have been in the gradually unfolding adventure. I uploaded a site to kind of mimic a tour, but involving the reader, rather than having them stand aside as an observer of another person's adventure. Incrementally moving forward.
http://www.beyondtheharbinger.com/
How cool is that. Very creative (yet simple).
I intentionally did not include navigation on the home page so that someone had to actually read it before moving forward, and then didn't include page titles in the navigation to reduce the tendency of folks to skip ahead. Like seeing a page titled "Beast" and thinking "gee I want to see that first". I put things in the order that I am most impressed by. Daniel's "times" problems, then the hermeneutically sound exegesis of the leopard-bear-lion, then day-year problems, then John's 8 beasts. It isn't done, and I won't be working on it for a couple of weeks as I am going to be off-grid for that long.