Author Topic: The Founding Fathers' View on Religion in Politics  (Read 18973 times)

Nick

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Re: The Founding Fathers' View on Religion in Politics
« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2010, 02:54:13 PM »
"Men almost invariably enslave men when they are Godless."

During the christian crusades, christians enslaved man, yes?
Would that have made the christians "godless?"

I could not find the qoute I was looking for but it was something to the effect of Man has commited countless atrocities in the name of God.

Peter

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Re: The Founding Fathers' View on Religion in Politics
« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2010, 03:07:01 PM »
"Men almost invariably enslave men when they are Godless."

During the christian crusades, christians enslaved man, yes?
Would that have made the christians "godless?"

There has been no shortage of posers parading around pretending to be Christians, throughout the Christian era. Satan inspires such behavior so that the lost will blame Jesus Christ, for things like the Roman Church misadventure that you cite.
Even though, through the brief snippets of the Gospel I have shared with you so far, a person being honest with themselves could easily judge that the only way a Christian could enslave someone, is if they truly believed that they would be happy if the circumstance was the reverse.

I could not find the qoute I was looking for but it was something to the effect of Man has commited countless atrocities in the name of God.

Without question they did, and in the name of God. The question is, were they God's people? Were they following God?
 The answer, as you can judge from the verses in just this thread, is an unequivocal no.
Take for example the Roman Church murder of Muslims, Jews AND CHRISTIANS.
Here's a good video
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=484.0

Why do you suppose it is that you desire to see the Gospel, as the direct opposite, of what it actually is?

Can you provide a list of Christian perpetrated atrocities from over the last 2,000 years?
Not those by Christian posers, but those whose actions were sanctioned by, and consistent with, the Gospel.

Nick

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Re: The Founding Fathers' View on Religion in Politics
« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2010, 04:33:09 PM »
"Even though, through the brief snippets of the Gospel I have shared with you so far, a person being honest with themselves could easily judge that the only way a Christian could enslave someone, is if they truly believed that they would be happy if the circumstance was the reverse."

You are under the false asumtion that I believe that scripture is fact.  This is they very thing I am talking about.  You cannot present the scripture to some one as fact, when the person you are presenting it to does not believe it is fact.  I belive the scriptures, over time, have been a concoction of man to please his own agenda for power and authority(moral).  My dispute is with the scriptures actually being fact, and not a constucton of man.

"There has been no shortage of posers parading around pretending to be Christians"
Exactly, how do you prove who is the poser and what words are sincere.  For all I know you could be a poser just the same.


Nick

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Re: The Founding Fathers' View on Religion in Politics
« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2010, 04:39:58 PM »
You should really want to avoid calling people names and judging them, being a christian and all. (you called me a liar twice), (you judged I was not being honest with myself, what reason do I have to lie about my opinions?)

"Laws governing man are what give Russians, Vietnamese and Cubans their rights - not U.S. citizens, though our government increasingly ignores that.
Our laws are intended to protect us from having our God-given rights infringed upon."

Why does the bill of rights, created and authored by man, even exist, if all of our rights are given and protected by god?

What are the god given rights, in your opinion?

Peter

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Re: The Founding Fathers' View on Religion in Politics
« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2010, 05:10:19 PM »
"Even though, through the brief snippets of the Gospel I have shared with you so far, a person being honest with themselves could easily judge that the only way a Christian could enslave someone, is if they truly believed that they would be happy if the circumstance was the reverse."

You are under the false asumtion that I believe that scripture is fact.

Not at all. I presumed you were in that elite 4% of the U.S. that is too smart to believe that God exists.
As part of that elite you should be more concerned about Islamic expansion than any other group.

  This is they very thing I am talking about.  You cannot present the scripture to some one as fact, when the person you are presenting it to does not believe it is fact.

You were falsely accusing Christians based on your ignorance of what we believe, and so I showed you how that was false on the basis of what Christians believe.

  I belive the scriptures, over time, have been a concoction of man to please his own agenda for power and authority(moral).  My dispute is with the scriptures actually being fact, and not a constucton of man.

What you wish to believe is up to you. However the sheer volume of partial or complete manuscripts, as well as the Daniel scroll in the Dead Sea Scrolls, for example, confirm otherwise.
http://beholdthebeast.com/bible_manuscript_errors_.htm


"There has been no shortage of posers parading around pretending to be Christians"
Exactly, how do you prove who is the poser and what words are sincere.
 

By judging in the light of scripture, which you can't, because you aren't seeking truth.

 
For all I know you could be a poser just the same.

That's why I let the scriptures speak for me.

Nick

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Re: The Founding Fathers' View on Religion in Politics
« Reply #30 on: June 15, 2010, 05:57:31 PM »
"Not at all. I presumed you were in that elite 4% of the U.S. that is too smart to believe that God exists.
As part of that elite you should be more concerned about Islamic expansion than any other group."

This conversation is over, I do not tolerate being mocked by someone who decides to believe in something there are no facts supporting, only information you construe to be "factual", to support your "faith." 

"You were falsely accusing Christians based on your ignorance"
You support my belief that most christians are not christ-like at all, Jesus would not have insulted me as many time as you have.
"By judging in the light of scripture, which you can't, because you aren't seeking truth."
You are seeking truth in a "scripture" that man wrote.  You chose to believe in the words of man, that is your choice, do not insult strangers to make yourself feel better, or smarter.  I have been nothing but civil and yet, even when I bring your attention to the matter, before now, you choose to ignore my requests at a civil conversation. 

Peter

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Re: The Founding Fathers' View on Religion in Politics
« Reply #31 on: June 15, 2010, 06:16:42 PM »
"Not at all. I presumed you were in that elite 4% of the U.S. that is too smart to believe that God exists.
As part of that elite you should be more concerned about Islamic expansion than any other group."

This conversation is over, I do not tolerate being mocked by someone who decides to believe in something there are no facts supporting, only information you construe to be "factual", to support your "faith."  

I was simply pointing out that there seems to be at least enough evidence, in whatever form, for the other 96% of us in the U.S. that believe there is a God.

Regarding why you should be concerned about Islamic expansion they have a history of "tolerating" Jews and Christians as long as they pay the tax of the enslaved, and follow their oppressive rules (that Christians can't), but in the case of agnostics and atheists and those of other religions, they simply exterminate them.

"You were falsely accusing Christians based on your ignorance"
You support my belief that most christians are not christ-like at all, Jesus would not have insulted me as many time as you have.

Again, context. That wasn't a hurled epithet, but rather an observation. Are you ignorant about the Gospel or not? Yes or no?
Have you ever even read the Gospel?

"By judging in the light of scripture, which you can't, because you aren't seeking truth."
You are seeking truth in a "scripture" that man wrote.

Men that were inspired by God.

 You chose to believe in the words of man, that is your choice, do not insult strangers to make yourself feel better, or smarter.

Then how would you explain your group? Don't you believe that you deny God exists because of your intellect?

I have been nothing but civil and yet, even when I bring your attention to the matter, before now, you choose to ignore my requests at a civil conversation.  

Peter

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Re: The Founding Fathers' View on Religion in Politics
« Reply #32 on: September 12, 2012, 09:29:10 AM »

2012-08-24 - ACTS OF BIBLICAL HOSTILITY BY PRESIDENT OBAMA

David Barton of Wallbuilders.com <http://wallbuilders.com/> has come out with a list explaining why Barack Obama is the most Biblically hostile President of all time. While most of these stories have been seen before, seeing them all laid out in one list is pretty astonishing.

1. ACTS OF HOSTILITY TOWARD PEOPLE OF BIBLICAL FAITH:

a. April 2008 - Obama speaks disrespectfully of Christians, saying they “cling to guns or religion” and have an “antipathy to people who aren’t like them.”

b. February 2009 - Obama announces plans to revoke conscience protection for health workers who refuse to participate in medical activities that go against their beliefs, and fully implements the plan in February 2011.

c. April 2009 - When speaking at Georgetown University, Obama orders that a monogram symbolizing Jesus’ name be covered when he is making his speech.

d. May 2009 - Obama declines to host services for the National Prayer Day (a day established by federal law) at the White House.

e. April 2009 - In a deliberate act of disrespect, Obama nominated three pro-abortion ambassadors to the Vatican; of course, the pro-life Vatican rejected all three.

f. October 19, 2010 - Obama begins deliberately omitting the phrase about “the Creator” when quoting the Declaration of Independence - an omission he has made on no less then 7 occasions.

g. November 2010 - Obama misquotes the National Motto, saying it is “E pluribus Unum” rather than “In God We Trust” as established by federal law.

h. January 2011 - After a federal law was passed to transfer a WWI Memorial in the Mojave Desert to private ownership, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the cross in the memorial could continue to stand, but the Obama administration refused to allow the land to be transferred as required by law, and refused to allow the cross to be re-erected as ordered by the Court.

i. February 2011 - Although he filled posts in the State Department, for more than two years Obama did not fill the post of religious freedom ambassador, an official that works against religious persecution across the world; he filled it only after heavy pressure from the public and from Congress.

j. April 2011 - For the first time in American history, Obama urges passage of a non-discrimination law that does not contain hiring protections for religious groups, forcing religious organizations to hire according to federal mandates without regard to the dictates of their own faith, thus eliminating conscience protection in hiring.

k. August 2011 - The Obama administration releases its new health care rules that override religious conscience protections for medical workers in the areas of abortion and contraception.

l. November 2011 - Obama opposes inclusion of President Franklin Roosevelt’s famous D-Day Prayer in the WWII Memorial.

m. November 2011 - Unlike previous presidents, Obama studiously avoids any religious references in his Thanksgiving speech.

n. December 2011 - The Obama administration denigrates other countries’ religious beliefs as an obstacle to radical homosexual rights.

o. January 2012 - The Obama administration argues that the First Amendment provides no protection for churches and synagogues in hiring their pastors and rabbis.

p. February 2012 - The Obama administration forgives student loans in exchange for public service, but announces it will no longer forgive student loans if the public service is related to religion.

2. ACTS OF HOSTILITY FROM THE OBAMA-LED MILITARY TOWARD PEOPLE OF BIBLICAL FAITH

a. June 2011 - The Department of Veteran Affairs forbids references to God and Jesus during burial ceremonies at Houston National Cemetery.

b. August 2011 - The Air Force stops teaching the Just War theory to officers in California because the course is taught by chaplains and is based on a philosophy introduced by St. Augustine in the third century AD - a theory long taught by civilized nations across the world (except America).

c. September 2011 - Air Force Chief of Staff prohibits commanders from notifying airmen of programs and services available to them from chaplains.

d. September 2011 -The Army issues guidelines for Walter Reed Medical Center stipulating that “No religious items (i.e. Bible, reading materials and/or facts) are allowed to be given away or used during a visit”

e. November 2011 - The Air Force Academy rescinds support for Operation Christmas Child, a program to send holiday gifts to impoverished children across the world, because the program is run by a Christian charity.

f. November 2011 - The Air Force Academy pays $80,000 to add a Stonehenge-like worship center for pagans, druids, witches and Wiccans.

g. February 2012 - The Air Force removes “God” from the patch of Rapid Capabilities Office (the word on the patch was in Latin: Dei).

h. February 2012 - The Army orders Catholic chaplains not to read a letter to parishioners that their archbishop asked them to read.

3. ACTS OF HOSTILITY TOWARD BIBLICAL VALUES:

a. January 2009 - Obama lifts restrictions on US government funding for groups that provide abortion services or counseling abroad, forcing taxpayers to fund pro-abortion groups that either promote or perform abortions in other nations.

b. January 2009 - President Obama’s nominee for deputy secretary of state asserts that American taxpayers are required to pay for abortions and that limits on abortion funding are unconstitutional

c. March 2009 - The Obama administration shut out pro-life groups from attending a White House-sponsored health care summit.

d. March 2009 - Obama orders taxpayer funding of embryonic stem cell research.

e. March 2009 - Obama gave $50 million for the UNFPA, the UN population agency that promotes abortion and works closely with Chinese population control officials who use forced abortions and involuntary sterilizations.

f. May 2009 - The White House budget eliminates all funding for abstinence-only education and replaces it with “comprehensive” sexual education, repeatedly proven to increase teen pregnancies and abortions. He continues the deletion in subsequent budgets.

g. May 2009 - Obama officials assemble a terrorism dictionary calling pro-life advocates violent and charging that they use racism in their “criminal” activities.

h. July 2009 - The Obama administration illegally extends federal benefits to same-sex partners of Foreign Service and Executive Branch employees, in direct violation of the federal Defense of Marriage Act.

i. September 16, 2009 - The Obama administration appoints as EEOC Commissioner Chai Feldblum, who asserts that society should “not tolerate” any “private beliefs,” including religious beliefs, if they negatively affect homosexual “equality.”

j. July 2010 - The Obama administration uses federal funds in violation of federal law to get Kenya to change its constitution to include abortion.

k. August 2010 - The Obama administration Cuts funding for 176 abstinence education programs.

l. September 2010 - The Obama administration tells researchers to ignore a judge’s decision striking down federal funding for embryonic stem cell research.

m. February 2011 - Obama directs the Justice Department to stop defending the federal Defense of Marriage Act.

n. March 2011 - The Obama administration refuses to investigate videos showing Planned Parenthood helping alleged sex traffickers get abortions for victimized underage girls.

o. July 2011 - Obama allows homosexuals to serve openly in the military, reversing a policy originally instituted by George Washington in March 1778.

p. September 2011 - The Pentagon directs that military chaplains may perform same-sex marriages at military facilities in violation of the federal Defense of Marriage Act.

q. October 2011 - The Obama administration eliminates federal grants to the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops for the extensive programs that aid victims of human trafficking because the Catholic Church is anti-abortion.

4. ACTS OF PREFERENTIALISM FOR ISLAM:

a. May 2009 - While Obama does not host any National Day of Prayer event at the White House, he does host White House Iftar dinners in honor of Ramadan.

b. April 2010 - Christian leader Franklin Graham is dis-invited from the Pentagon’s National Day of Prayer Event because of complaints from the Muslim community.

c. April 2010 - The Obama administration requires rewriting of government documents and a change in administration vocabulary to remove terms that are deemed offensive to Muslims, including jihad, jihadists, terrorists, radical Islamic, etc.

d. August 2010 - Obama speaks with great praise of Islam and condescendingly of Christianity.

e. August 2010 - Obama went to great lengths to speak out on multiple occasions on behalf of building an Islamic mosque at Ground Zero, while at the same time he was silent about a Christian church being denied permission to rebuild at that location.

f. 2010 - While every White House traditionally issues hundreds of official proclamations and statements on numerous occasions, this White House avoids traditional Biblical holidays and events but regularly recognizes major Muslim holidays, as evidenced by its 2010 statements on Ramadan, Eid-ul-Fitr, Hajj, and Eid-ul-Adha.

g. October 2011 - Obama’s Muslim advisers block Middle Eastern Christians’ access to the White House.

h. February 2012 - The Obama administration makes effulgent apologies for Korans being burned by the U.S. military, but when Bibles were burned by the military, numerous reasons were offered why it was the right thing to do.

Many of these actions are literally unprecedented - this is the first time they have happened in four centuries of American history. The hostility of President Obama toward Biblical faith and values is without equal from any previous American president.

See “The Harbinger” by Jonathan Cahn to understand the seriousness for America being led from its early foundations.

ExMilitary

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Re: The Founding Fathers' View on Religion in Politics
« Reply #33 on: January 28, 2013, 12:49:44 AM »
See “The Harbinger” by Jonathan Cahn to understand the seriousness for America being led from its early foundations.

Been a while since I've been on this board.

The Harbinger is eye opening.

Peter

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Re: The Founding Fathers' View on Religion in Politics
« Reply #34 on: January 28, 2013, 05:08:15 AM »
See “The Harbinger” by Jonathan Cahn to understand the seriousness for America being led from its early foundations.

Been a while since I've been on this board.

The Harbinger is eye opening.
Thanks. I just put it in my cart at amazon

ExMilitary

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Re: The Founding Fathers' View on Religion in Politics
« Reply #35 on: January 28, 2013, 10:41:35 PM »
Thanks. I just put it in my cart at amazon

Cahn's writing style will likely get under most people's skin, but it is the meat of his message that is quite stunning.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

PeteWaldo

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Re: The Founding Fathers' View on Religion in Politics
« Reply #36 on: June 07, 2013, 06:01:53 AM »
See “The Harbinger” by Jonathan Cahn to understand the seriousness for America being led from its early foundations.

Been a while since I've been on this board.

The Harbinger is eye opening.

Read it recently and really enjoyed it. It could have been a 5 page booklet, but perhaps the dragging out the unfolding in why it was so popular. I responded by registering "Beyond the Harbinger" to try to put the reader in Noriel's shoes rather than being an observer of his journey.

ExMilitary

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Re: The Founding Fathers' View on Religion in Politics
« Reply #37 on: June 11, 2013, 10:04:03 PM »
Read it recently and really enjoyed it. It could have been a 5 page booklet, but perhaps the dragging out the unfolding in why it was so popular. I responded by registering "Beyond the Harbinger" to try to put the reader in Noriel's shoes rather than being an observer of his journey.

Agreed a 5 page booklet.  I loaned my copy out to a friend that hasn't taken the time to read it yet.

PeteWaldo

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Re: The Founding Fathers' View on Religion in Politics
« Reply #38 on: June 12, 2013, 05:33:43 AM »
Read it recently and really enjoyed it. It could have been a 5 page booklet, but perhaps the dragging out the unfolding in why it was so popular. I responded by registering "Beyond the Harbinger" to try to put the reader in Noriel's shoes rather than being an observer of his journey.

Agreed a 5 page booklet.  I loaned my copy out to a friend that hasn't taken the time to read it yet.

I thought the appeal of the book might have been in the gradually unfolding adventure. I uploaded a site to kind of mimic a tour, but involving the reader, rather than having them stand aside as an observer of another person's adventure. Incrementally moving forward.
http://www.beyondtheharbinger.com/

ExMilitary

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Re: The Founding Fathers' View on Religion in Politics
« Reply #39 on: June 12, 2013, 01:48:13 PM »
I thought the appeal of the book might have been in the gradually unfolding adventure. I uploaded a site to kind of mimic a tour, but involving the reader, rather than having them stand aside as an observer of another person's adventure. Incrementally moving forward.
http://www.beyondtheharbinger.com/

How cool is that.  Very creative (yet simple).  I actually smiled when I realized what was happening.

I'll take time to go through the entire 'adventure' when I have some time to do so.

Thanks for all of your hard work on these things... I do web type stuff for a living and know how tedious it can be to create (even simple) websites.

PeteWaldo

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Re: The Founding Fathers' View on Religion in Politics
« Reply #40 on: June 13, 2013, 06:10:59 AM »
I thought the appeal of the book might have been in the gradually unfolding adventure. I uploaded a site to kind of mimic a tour, but involving the reader, rather than having them stand aside as an observer of another person's adventure. Incrementally moving forward.
http://www.beyondtheharbinger.com/

How cool is that.  Very creative (yet simple).

I intentionally did not include navigation on the home page so that someone had to actually read it before moving forward, and then didn't include page titles in the navigation to reduce the tendency of folks to skip ahead. Like seeing a page titled "Beast" and thinking "gee I want to see that first". I put things in the order that I am most impressed by. Daniel's "times" problems, then the hermeneutically sound exegesis of the leopard-bear-lion, then day-year problems, then John's 8 beasts. It isn't done, and I won't be working on it for a couple of weeks as I am going to be off-grid for that long.