Often times when discussing politics or religions it is easy to fall into the trap of thinking in black and white terms. It may be odd or even difficult to imagine that there are Jews who hate to see Isreal as a reality but there are. I have even encountered some who openly side with the Palestinians in this conflict. It may not be suprising for left leaning liberal Jews to do so. Such as groups like J-Street and the like but I am referring to those that consider themselves Orthodox Torah observant Jews. I have encountered these kind in chats with muslims who grasp at anything to help legitimize their claims against Israel. Inevitably we had our first "Torah observant" Jew come here and try to argue that Israel was an illegitimate state and that because of their disobedience they have no right to be in the land of Israel. It is due to this that I remind our friend and those of his persuasion that it was because of God's name sake that God would regather Israel. Not for the Jewish peoples' obedience would He regather them but in spite of their disobedience He would do this.
Eze 36:19 I dispersed them among the nations, and they were scattered through the countries; I judged them according to their conduct and their actions.
Eze 36:20 And wherever they went among the nations they profaned my holy name, for it was said of them, 'These are the LORD's people, and yet they had to leave his land.'
Eze 36:21 I had concern for my holy name, which the house of Israel profaned among the nations where they had gone.
Eze 36:22 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone.
Eze 36:23 And I will sanctify My great Name, which was profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the Lord-is the declaration of the Lord God-when I will be sanctified through you before their eyes.
Eze 36:24 For I will take you from among the nations and gather you from all the countries, and I will bring you to your land.
I would also remind people that God alone is able to regather the people of Israel. So if they have regathered then it is His will that this has been done.
Nor would it seem that this verse is referring to Gospel-aware Jews:
Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.
Let alone that Daniel pinned the the restoration of the Jews to their land, and to their city, right to the years 1948 and 1967
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm
Reads more like a headline:
Zec 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him. 2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah [and] against Jerusalem. 3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
And quite a list it is:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3217.0
More
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=331.0
So the board is working again. Anyway the State of Israel is not the fulfillment of the prophets. It was established by atheists who were sinful people before G-d who wanted to destroy the integrity of Judaism and the Jewish people with their sinful violent state. But were are told that the strength and power of the hand is the way of Esau not Jacob. The Zionists created Sodom and Gomorrah in Tel Aviv and are responsible for the deaths of untold numbers of Jews and Arabs.
AND the Zionists will never have peace as it is written : No peace says my G-d to the wicked.
Eyn shalom amar Elokai leReshaim! !
So are you always prone to ignoring points? As I said God alone is able to regather the Jewish people. Furthermore, you speak in monolithic terms as if the only one's responsible for the return are atheists.
This is no return! To live there and commit all the sins is precisely why we were exiled in the first place. The Zionists were and are wretched Amalekites.
They have brainwashed millions of people with the evil disobedience of G-d.
Hey Dave, I think you may not have noticed that the other thread indexed to a second page.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3194.15
Yes, I already posted there now. But we are focusing on Zionism here.
It is one of the greatest tragedies that well meaning Christians believe all the claptrap of the Zionist maniacs. I cannot understand how single pastor could swallow the garbage fed by those Amalekites in the Knesset. How on Earth could anyone believe this vile anti-Torah regime is the fulfillment of the holy prophets? It's beyond me.
Do any pastors know how much people like Ben Gurion and Begin hated religion, and only pandered to Jews with religion to get support for their wicked agendas? This Netanyahu is also a big heretic. He has said many times that the only hope for the Jewish People is his State. What a jerk. What a member of the Mixed Multitude or Amalekites who have always sought to destroy the Jews since the Mixed Multitude demanded the Golden Calf.
Quote from: Peter on April 27, 2012, 09:43:10 AM
Hey Dave, I think you may not have noticed that the other thread indexed to a second page.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3194.15
Quote from: Dave2 on April 27, 2012, 09:33:09 AM
This is no return! To live there and commit all the sins is precisely why we were exiled in the first place. The Zionists were and are wretched Amalekites.
They have brainwashed millions of people with the evil disobedience of G-d.
So I guess that is a yes to my question. I will also ask you to please tone down the name calling. And do you deny the fact that millions of Jews have returned to Israel? Could anyone or anything gather them other than God? And also scripture specifically says that God would regather the Children of Israel while they were in their disobedience because His name was being blasphemed throughout the world. Their has been no greater time of blasphemy than this current age. So where does that leave you given what scripture says.
Quote from: Dave2 on April 27, 2012, 10:33:39 AM
Yes, I already posted there now. But we are focusing on Zionism here.
It is one of the greatest tragedies that well meaning Christians believe all the claptrap of the Zionist maniacs. I cannot understand how single pastor could swallow the garbage fed by those Amalekites in the Knesset. How on Earth could anyone believe this vile anti-Torah regime is the fulfillment of the holy prophets? It's beyond me.
Do any pastors know how much people like Ben Gurion and Begin hated religion, and only pandered to Jews with religion to get support for their wicked agendas? This Netanyahu is also a big heretic. He has said many times that the only hope for the Jewish People is his State.
It's certainly the only hope for Jews and Christians that live in Israel, to be protected from the murderous Islamic onslaught, and being subjugated to Muhammad's followers.
Quote from: Dave2 on April 27, 2012, 10:33:39 AMWhat a jerk. What a member of the Mixed Multitude or Amalekites who have always sought to destroy the Jews since the Mixed Multitude demanded the Golden Calf.
Quote from: Peter on April 27, 2012, 09:43:10 AM
Hey Dave, I think you may not have noticed that the other thread indexed to a second page.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3194.15
All you did was repeat yourself regarding
unfaithful Jews. Resisting asked about
FAITHFUL Jews that happen to live in Israel. Those Jews whose lives revolve around their synagogues and faith based community in Israel. Those Jews with a circumcision of their hearts, not just a circumcision of the flesh.
This is not the point. The entire superstructure of Zionist ideology is heresy and atheism. The fact that the Zionists were able to brainwash, propaganda and bribe other Jews is not my fault. Their main weapon is planting FEAR and offering GOODIES (money to support institutions, etc.).
As I pointed out, they are full of atheistic heresy and do not believe in the warnings and promises of G-d in the Prophets and our oral law. Ultimately they will end up in the equivalent of what happened to Korach.
Again, I lament the fact that Christian pastors who claim to believe in our holy books would support theh wicked Zionist barbaric heretical racist regime. NO one on earth has any grievances against the Zionists. Anyone with grievances, including Jews, are just "anti-semites." This type of sick narcissism is too much to endure.
Quote from: Dave2 on April 27, 2012, 02:21:06 PM
This is not the point. The entire superstructure of Zionist ideology is heresy and atheism. The fact that the Zionists were able to brainwash, propaganda and bribe other Jews is not my fault. Their main weapon is planting FEAR and offering GOODIES (money to support institutions, etc.).
As I pointed out, they are full of atheistic heresy and do not believe in the warnings and promises of G-d in the Prophets and our oral law.
But again, the verses in the original post say that God didn't restore them to their land for their sakes, but for the sake of His name.
Quote from: Dave2 on April 27, 2012, 02:21:06 PMUltimately they will end up in the equivalent of what happened to Korach.
Again, I lament the fact that Christian pastors who claim to believe in our holy books would support theh wicked Zionist barbaric heretical racist regime.
Yet anti-Zionism supports the conquest of Israel by their Islamic neighbors, advancing the slaughter and subjugation of faithful Jews that live there, as well as Christians. A repeat of the first Islamic jihad that conquered and subjugated the Arabian peninsula during Muhammad's lifetime, and found Israel as just another stepping stone as they went on to conquer nearly the whole known world, until stopped in France and Austria.
Ishaq:461 "After the siege exhausted and terrorized them, the Jews felt certain that the Apostle would not leave them until he had exterminated them. So they decided to talk to Ka'b Asad. He said, 'People of the Jews, you see what has befallen you. I shall propose three alternatives. Take whichever one you please.' He said, 'Swear allegiance to this man and accept him; for, by Allah, it has become clear to you that he is a prophet sent from Allah. It is he that you used to find mentioned in your scripture book. Then you will be secure in your lives, your property, your children, and your wives.'"
Ishaq:462/Tabari VIII:30
"The Jews said, 'We will never abandon the Torah or exchange it for the Qur'an.' Asad said, 'Since you reject this proposal of mine, then kill your children and your wives and go out to Muhammad and his Companions as men who brandish swords, leaving behind no impediments to worry you. If you die, you shall have left nothing behind; if you win you shall find other women and children.' The Jews replied, 'Why would we kill these poor ones? What would be the good of living after them?'"
Tabari VIII:35/Ishaq:464 "Huyayy, the enemy of Allah, was brought out. He was wearing a rose-colored suit of clothes that he had torn all over with fingertip-sized holes so that it would not be taken as booty. His hands were bound to his neck with a rope.
When he looked at Muhammad he said, 'I do not regret opposing you. Whoever forsakes God will be damned.' He sat down and was beheaded."Tabari VIII:38 "
The Messenger of Allah commanded that all of the Jewish men and boys who had reached puberty should be beheaded. Then the Prophet divided the wealth, wives, and children of the Banu Qurayza Jews among the Muslims."
Tabari VIII:35/Ishaq:464 "The Jews were made to come down, and Allah's Messenger imprisoned them. Then the Prophet went out into the marketplace of Medina (it is still its marketplace today), and he had trenches dug in it.
He sent for the Jewish men and had them beheaded in those trenches. They were brought out to him in batches. They numbered 800 to 900 boys and men."
Tabari VIII:40 "The Messenger of God commanded that furrows should be dug in the ground for the Qurayza. Then he sat down. Ali and Zubayr began cutting off their heads in his presence."
Qur'an 33:26 "
Allah took down the People of the Scripture Book. He cast terror into their hearts. Some you slew, and some you made prisoners. And He made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods, giving you a land which you had not traversed before. And Allah has power over all things."
Anti-Zionists are effectively consigning their future heirs to being subjugated to Muhammad's followers while being compelled to prostrate themselves to the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca five times a day, and pray in the pagan Arabian's deity's name "Allah".
Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "
The Hour will not be established until you fight with the jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him." (Book #52, Hadith #177)
In the words of people gathered together against Jerusalem:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_X8dhrzQCHY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Rl0rZObP-c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcjpTyflYmM
http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=jews+stone&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all
Quote from: Dave2 on April 27, 2012, 02:21:06 PMNO one on earth has any grievances against the Zionists. Anyone with grievances, including Jews, are just "anti-semites." This type of sick narcissism is too much to endure.
I don't believe you would try to deny that, though anti-Zionists are found in Judaism and the church, we also find included among anti-Zionists, Nazis, Aryans, skinheads, Louis Farrakan and his Nation of Islam, Hamas and Hezbollah and the rest of Muhammad's true followers who are engaged in the conquest of Israel, which groups I believe you would agree are antisemitic. Most of whom also advance the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", with the 1988 charter of Hamas stating that: "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion embodies the plan of the Zionists."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocols_of_Zion
Dave, can you direct me to some resources that detail the history of Israel at the beginning of the 19th century?
And therefore, what?? You want to bring sources from Islamic stories? So what? Need I bring stories of the Crusades, the blood libels etc. of the Christian nations??
Do you remember that practically speaking the Islamic nations were always on good terms with the Jews? Who took in the Jews when the Spanish Inquisition kicked them out in 1492? Judaism was flourishing in Muslim Spain, Morocco and Iraq when Jews still faced the sword in Europe.
Let's get practical.
Quote from: Dave2 on April 29, 2012, 01:17:34 PM
And therefore, what?? You want to bring sources from Islamic stories? So what?
So Muhammad's beheading of those innocent pubescent farm boys doesn't bug you. Doesn't communicate to you the heart of their prophet and of his TRUE followers today that I gave you links to the youtubes of. THEIR LEADERS.
I was helping you get more familiar with the people who are engaging in the conquest of Israel and the slaughter of faithful Jews that happen to live there, and Christians that the Jews had protected in Gaza, until the Muhammad's followers took over.
And all those anti-Zionist Nazis and skinheads and Muslims interest is exterminating Jews, just as surely as the anti-Zionist Islamic LEADER of Iran, Ahmadinejad, is.
Quote from: Dave2 on April 29, 2012, 01:17:34 PMNeed I bring stories of the Crusades, the blood libels etc. of the Christian nations??
If you can explain how Roman Church behavior, and some of the blackest hearts in the history of mankind, is consistent with the commandments the Gospel gives Christians.
Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And
thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment. 31 And the second [is] like, [namely] this,
Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. 32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
Quote from: Dave2 on April 29, 2012, 01:17:34 PM
Do you remember that practically speaking the Islamic nations were always on good terms with the Jews?
Sure. Beginning with their "prophet's" slaughter and subjugation of the Banu Qurayza Jews described above, along with the other two Jewish tribes of Medina murdered, to the dhimmitude they subjected Jews and Christians to later on. Allowing them to live in the slavery of dhimmitude, rather than slaughtering them, so they could bleed them for the jizya tax. Even slapping them across the face as they paid it to confirm just who was in charge.
Quote from: Dave2 on April 29, 2012, 01:17:34 PMWho took in the Jews when the Spanish Inquisition kicked them out in 1492?
Who took in Christians, when the Roman church was torturing and slaughtering us, during the inquisition?
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=484.0
http://www.biblebelievers.com/foxes/fox105.htm
Quote from: Dave2 on April 29, 2012, 01:17:34 PMJudaism was flourishing in Muslim Spain, Morocco and Iraq when Jews still faced the sword in Europe.
Let's get practical.
Practical? Whose got their head in the sand Dave? Muhammad's
true followers despise Jews, and seek to kill Jews, just as Muhammad did. They are doing what they can to be like Muhammad. Several links on this thread regarding dhimmitude:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2482.msg10237#msg10237
Try the link "Islam and the Jews: The Status of Jews and Christians in Muslim Lands, 1772 CE"
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2482.msg10238#msg10238
Jews under Muslim Rule--II: Morocco 1903-1912
First time I opened it on the first page I read:
http://dhimmitude.org/archive/littman_jews_under_muslims_19thcent_wlb_2.pdf
"Hundreds of letters vividly authenticate the contemporary accounts of European travelers during the age of liberalism and emancipation, who almost unanimously agreed on "the degraded and precarious position of Jews in Muslim countries, and the dangers and humiliations to which they were subject".
Jews under Muslim Rule: The Case of Persia.
http://dhimmitude.org/archive/littman_jews_under_muslims_case_of_persia.pdf
Mission to Morocco (1863-1864)
http://dhimmitude.org/archive/littman_montefoire_1863-64_1985.pdf
Try a search like dhimmitude jews spain islam (http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=Ajdfur00ZoU2Mz8.f54SGDSbvZx4?p=dhimmitude+jews+spain+islam&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-701)
It's boring just to see redigested and recycled paranoid Zionist propaganda. Talk to Jews from the Arab countries and to Jews who know Jewish history and find out how the Jews flourished in Muslim Spain, Alexandria, Miknes, Casa Blanca, Istanbul, Tunis, Djerba and Yemen.
Quote from: Dave2 on April 29, 2012, 03:11:09 PM
It's boring just to see redigested and recycled paranoid Zionist propaganda. Talk to Jews from the Arab countries and to Jews who know Jewish history and find out how the Jews flourished in Muslim Spain, Alexandria, Miknes, Casa Blanca, Istanbul, Tunis, Djerba and Yemen.
Haven't Jews flourished in every culture in which they were oppressed, in spite of the persecution? Perhaps a couple thousands of years of persecution will do that for you. That they flourished does not indicate they weren't persecuted, as those historical papers above indicate.
So where are you from, that you are suggesting what Israeli Jews should and shouldn't be concerned about? Where do you live?
No, it's not true. Should I tell you how rough life was for Jews under communism or under the last days of the czar? My grandparents told me all about it. No thanks! Or about suffering under the Crusades?? No thanks. The greatest rabbinical scholars were in Poland and the Sephardi countries in the 17th and 18th centuries. There was no significant persecution in either place.
Quote from: Dave2 on April 29, 2012, 04:00:38 PMOr about suffering under the Crusades??
What would you expect out of a bunch of men that had never heard the Gospel spoken in a tongue that they understood, that Roman church clergy (who had no authority or ability to do so) told would receive blanket absolution from sin for life, if they went on the Crusades? Rape, pillage and plunder! Of course.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2363.0
Oh, so you see how selective you are! THEY claimed they were doing the will of Christ. Everything is in the eyes of the beholder isn't it?!
Quote from: Dave2 on April 29, 2012, 04:20:57 PM
Oh, so you see how selective you are! THEY claimed they were doing the will of Christ.
But through what I already showed you it should have been easy for you to discern, that any such claim made while perpetrating UNChristian evil against our fellow man, would be a demonstrably false claim by the two most important commandments given to Christians...
Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And
thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment. 31 And the second [is] like, [namely] this,
Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. 32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
.... nothing could be more the exact opposite of "doing the will of Christ" than rape, pillage and plunder.
Galatians 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this;
Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.But rape, pillage and plunder is just as Muhammad and his followers engaged in and still do. With Muhammad claiming 1/5 of all the "booty" stolen from others for himself. Just like a Mafia Don.
After Muhammad sat down and watched all those pubescent Jewish farm boys, and their dads and grandpas be beheaded in front of him, his boys went to their "holy" place and....
Bukhari:V5B59N459 "I entered the Mosque, saw Abu, sat beside him and asked about sex. Abu Said said, 'We went out with Allah's Apostle and we received female slaves from among the captives. We desired women and we loved to do coitus interruptus.'"
And still do to this day:
"Eyewitness accounts detailing the militia attacks are horrifying. "They killed my 3-year-old son right in front of my eyes," one father from West Darfur said. Since last fall, women have reported more than 500 rapes. Three women said five militiamen beat and raped them last August. The women said, "After they abused us, they told us that now we would have Arab babies. And, if they would find any [more] women, they would rape them again to change the color of their children.""
In Indonesia 3 teenage girls were beheaded on their way to their Christian school and one of their heads left on the steps of a Church. The note left behind reads: "We will murder 100 more Christian teenagers and their heads will be presented as presents."
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/great_tribulation.htm
What does the thousand Christians killed on the Ivory Coast (http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0oG7mt3gZ5PomEA6TtXNyoA?p=thousand+christians+killed+ivory+coast&fr2=sb-top&fr=yfp-t-701&type_param=) of Africa by the new Muslim government have to do with Zionism?
Or Nigeria (http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0oG7mutgZ5PVn0AbTRXNyoA?p=christians+killed+nigeria&fr2=sb-top&fr=yfp-t-701&type_param=)
But as I previously showed you, the Roman church perhaps went harder on Christians, than they did on any other group.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=484.0
Quote from: Dave2 on April 29, 2012, 04:20:57 PMEverything is in the eyes of the beholder isn't it?!
Not at all. Everything is right there in the scriptures.
Perhaps next you'll be trying to make the claim that Hitler was a Christian?
Quote from: Dave2 on April 29, 2012, 03:11:09 PM
It's boring just to see redigested and recycled paranoid Zionist propaganda. Talk to Jews from the Arab countries and to Jews who know Jewish history and find out how the Jews flourished in Muslim Spain, Alexandria, Miknes, Casa Blanca, Istanbul, Tunis, Djerba and Yemen.
Jewish Populations as of 2004
Egypt-100
Iraq-35
Lebanon-less than 100
Syria-less than 100
Yemen-200
So let's gather up all 535 (give or take) and ask them how they are flourishing there.
Quote from: resistingrexmundi on April 30, 2012, 02:29:54 PM
Quote from: Dave2 on April 29, 2012, 03:11:09 PM
It's boring just to see redigested and recycled paranoid Zionist propaganda. Talk to Jews from the Arab countries and to Jews who know Jewish history and find out how the Jews flourished in Muslim Spain, Alexandria, Miknes, Casa Blanca, Istanbul, Tunis, Djerba and Yemen.
Jewish Populations as of 2004
Egypt-100
Iraq-35
Lebanon-less than 100
Syria-less than 100
Yemen-200
So let's gather up all 535 (give or take) and ask them how they are flourishing there.
Good post resisting. Meanwhile Dave's working to turn Israel into another sharia law ruled, female circumcising, child doing, concubine keeping, wife beating, Christian beheading, Islamist terrorist, slave state. Just like the Muslim controlled Middle East. This even though Muslims enjoy more freedom in Israel, than they do in any Islam controlled country on earth.
You can bet he doesn't live in Israel!
I guess I'll have to leave the Board. My messages don't get proper replies and quotes in replies get cut off (i.e. about the NT). And Peter doesn't understand what I am talking about simply because he's prejudiced against Muslims. I find it rather boring.
Quote from: Dave2 on April 30, 2012, 06:39:27 PM
I guess I'll have to leave the Board. My messages don't get proper replies and quotes in replies get cut off (i.e. about the NT). And Peter doesn't understand what I am talking about simply because he's prejudiced against Muslims. I find it rather boring.
Your post about the NT is being responded to currently. It is off topic and so I am working on a response to put into another thread where it is appropriate to the issue being discussed. In the meantime you could try actually answering questions posed to you. For example you have repeatedly dodged the fact that the scriptures said God would restore the children of Israel in their rebellion for His own Name's sake. And your point about Jewish populations flourishing in Arab countries was addressed and you immediately ignored it.
Quote from: Dave2 on April 30, 2012, 06:39:27 PM
I guess I'll have to leave the Board. My messages don't get proper replies and quotes in replies get cut off (i.e. about the NT).
NOTHING has been "cut off" because we have no fear of truth. To my knowledge the only post of yours that hasn't been addressed, is the one that you posted to change the subject rather than answer a question (http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3194.msg13497#msg13497) on another thread, and it is being addressed now at the following link:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3238.0
You are the one that is increasingly non-responsive, Dave. YOU are the one that has ignored point after point as everyone who reads these threads from the beginning can easily see. For heaven's sake, you even totally ignored resisting's last post, to dither on with this one. The record is here for all to see. I hope it will serve to help a few of your brethren, that are seeking the truth, to see.
Quote from: Dave2 on April 30, 2012, 06:39:27 PMAnd Peter doesn't understand what I am talking about simply because he's prejudiced against Muslims.
To understand what you are talking about, a reasonable person only needs to consider the Nazi, skinhead, Aryan, David Duke and the KKK, Louis Farrakan and the Nation of Islam, and Islamic company that you keep, and their hatred of at least the vast majority of your Jewish brethren that are Zionists.
My prejudice is against hate and genocide.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_X8dhrzQCHY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Rl0rZObP-c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcjpTyflYmM
Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him." Book #52, Hadith #177
So my prejudice is against THE false prophet Muhammad, who deceived his poor bible-ignorant followers, with his stand-alone 7th century thinly repackaged Quraish pagan moon, sun, star and jinn devil worship rituals, and prostrating to the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca five times a day.
http://www.petewaldo.com/hajj_umrah.htm
And his stand-alone books that incite his followers into global conquest and subjugation of all people of the world to Muhammad's followers.
http://www.petewaldo.com/jihad.htm
Indeed there is not a shred of scriptural, historical, or archaeological evidence that suggests that Mecca ever existed before the 4th century AD.
http://www.petewaldo.com/mecca.htm
Is there somewhere in your scriptures that prescribes prostrating oneself to an Arabian pagan black stone idol in Mecca five times a day - located 1200 kilometers away from the Holy Land - as being a way to worship the God of Abraham?
How about traveling to that black stone idol, kissing it, and marching around it 7 times?
Does Yahweh command you to do that?
http://www.petewaldo.com/hajj___umrah.htm#twaf
How about traveling to Mecca, and running back and forth between the hills of Al-Safa and Al-Marwah 7 times as the Arabian jinn-devil worshipers did? Is that something that the God of your scriptures prescribes for His people?
http://www.petewaldo.com/hajj___umrah.htm#al_safa_al_marwah
Tell us Dave. Do you believe Muhammad was the last prophet, or even a true prophet of the God of Abraham and the scriptures at all?
YES or NO? The men of the Banu Qurayza sure didn't, and were willing to pay with their lives, for rejecting Muhammad.
http://www.petewaldo.com/banu_qurayza_massacre.htm
If you aren't just a Muslim practicing sophisticated taqiyyah (which your posts have increasingly caused me to suspect)
you will answer all of the above questions. Quote from: Dave2 on April 30, 2012, 06:39:27 PMI find it rather boring.
That's because you are not engaging. If Jews thrived so well in Islamic countries, as you claimed, as resisting pointed out, why are they all gone Dave?
They are not all gone. But do I have to give you a history lesson? The Jews of Iraq, mostly in Baghdad were frightened by Zionist operatives who planted bombs in synagogues and offered bribes to Iraqi officials to give everyone visas. Check the book by Naim Giladi. The Jews of Algeria remained in Algeria until 1962 when most left for France. Same thing for Moroccan Jews in 1967. Libyan Jews, who were not too many left Libya after the war during independence, and most Egyptian Jews remained in Egypt until 1956. Gosh, what were all those Jews doing in those places among those "evil" Ayrabs?!
And no, I do not believe in Mohammed or the Quran because I am not a Muslim, just like I do not believe in the New Testament because I am not a Christian, and do not believe in the Bhagavad Gita because I am not a Hindu.
Quote from: Dave2 on May 01, 2012, 12:46:17 PM
They are not all gone. But do I have to give you a history lesson? The Jews of Iraq, mostly in Baghdad were frightened by Zionist operatives who planted bombs in synagogues and offered bribes to Iraqi officials to give everyone visas. Check the book by Naim Giladi. The Jews of Algeria remained in Algeria until 1962 when most left for France. Same thing for Moroccan Jews in 1967. Libyan Jews, who were not too many left Libya after the war during independence, and most Egyptian Jews remained in Egypt until 1956. Gosh, what were all those Jews doing in those places among those "evil" Ayrabs?!
And no, I do not believe in Mohammed or the Quran because I am not a Muslim, just like I do not believe in the New Testament because I am not a Christian, and do not believe in the Bhagavad Gita because I am not a Hindu.
That is incredibly naive to think that the account of this one author would have more weight than the countless testimonies of hundreds of thousands of Jews who sought protection and safety from those Arab countries. It is easy to sit in judgment when you are sitting in front of your computer thousands of miles away. But I wonder if you would feel so warm and fuzzy about the Islamic countries if you lived somewhere in which you only had an average of 13-15 seconds to seek refuge before impending bombardment. Or where you had to accept second class citizenship and pay a special tax for not being muslim. You can sugar coat the history of the Jewish people in Islamic lands if you wish but it doesn't change historical facts.
Quote from: Dave2 on May 01, 2012, 12:46:17 PMAnd no, I do not believe in Mohammed or the Quran because I am not a Muslim, just like I do not believe in the New Testament because I am not a Christian.....
While Muslims believe they are born Muslims, you have the order backwards in regard to Christians. A person believes, repents, and is born again, and thereby becomes a Christian. Like so many Jews have ever since the first century and unto today (http://www.jewsforjesus.org/), who were, and are, willing to be tortured and die terrible martyrs deaths, for the testimony of Yeshua. Between 100,000 and 200,000 Christians are martyred, every year, in the world today. Jews that recognize that Jesus fulfilled the prophesies of their Messiah, and ushered in the new covenant, that was prophesied in the old covenant.
Isaiah 53:1. Who would have believed our report, and to whom was the arm of the Lord revealed? 2. And he came up like a sapling before it, and like a root from dry ground, he had neither form nor comeliness; and we saw him that he had no appearance. Now shall we desire him? 3.
Despised and rejected by men (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=1&v=11&t=KJV#11), a man of pains and accustomed to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and
we held him of no account. 4.
Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=26&v=65&t=KJV#65) and oppressed. 5.
But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him,
and with his wound we were healed (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=27&t=KJV#26). 6. We all went astray like sheep, we have turned, each one on his way, and
the Lord accepted his prayers for the iniquity of all of us. (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Ti&c=2&t=KJV#5) 7.
He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he would not open his mouth (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mar&c=15&v=2&t=KJV#2); like a lamb to the slaughter (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=1&t=KJV#29) he would be brought, and like a ewe that is mute before her shearers, and he would not open his mouth. 8. From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell?
For he was cut off from the land of the living (http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=gave+up+ghost&t=KJV); because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them. 9. And
he gave his grave to the wicked (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rev&c=20&t=KJV#14), and to the wealthy with his kinds of death,
because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. 10. And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and
God's purpose shall prosper (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rom&c=8&t=KJV#28) in his hand. 11. From the toil of his soul he would see, he would be satisfied; with his knowledge My servant would vindicate the just for many,
and their iniquities he would bear. 12. Therefore, I will allot him a portion in public, and with the strong he shall share plunder,
because he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=27&t=KJV#38); and he bore the sin of many (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Hbr&c=9&t=KJV#28), and interceded for the transgressors (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Luk&c=23&t=KJV#34).It's easy to understand why your resistance to the Gospel is nearly as great as the Muhammadans. While you aren't killed by your own family or community for coming to know the love of God through a relationship with the Messiah - as Muhammad's followers are (http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=DLDWGGNX) - don't Jews ostracize converts to Christianity, and even throw a funeral for them while they are still alive?
The reason the temple was torn down - every stone, just as Jesus prophesied (http://www.beholdthebeast.com/matthew_24_olivet_discourse.htm#matt_24_1) - and Yahweh has prevented Jews from proselytizing folks into Judaism ever since, is to illuminate the new covenant path to Him through His Messiah, Yeshua (which name perhaps you can confirm means to rescue or deliver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshua_%28name%29#Etymology)). Yeshua's people
are the temple of God (http://www.beholdthebeast.com/temple_of_god.htm) today.
The waxing away of the old covenant (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Hbr&c=8&t=KJV#13) path is evidenced by only .02% of the world's population today being Jewish. However
you distinguish
yourself as being separated even further, by claiming to be only a tiny fraction of that .02%, suggesting that Yahweh granted you an exclusive franchise on truth, even as you spew venom against your brethren while finding comfort in the arms of Jew hating anti-Zionist Nazis, Aryans, skinheads, David Duke and the KKK, Louis Farrakan and the Nation of Islam, the Soviets, and Muhammad's followers that you aid in their conquest of Israel, and slaughter and subjugation of Jews and Christians there. Anti-Zionists striving to turn Israel into another sharia law ruled, female circumcising, multiple wife beating, child doing, concubine keeping, imperialistic Islamic terror slave state. Yet you don't seem to be able to see anything wrong with that.
I've done what I was called to do for you my friend, but primarily for the benefit of other oddly anti-Zionist Jews that may review our chat in the future, that are honest enough with themselves to wonder just why it is they are fruit of the same anti-Zionist tree as those groups listed in the prior paragraph. The rest is between you and your Messiah.
Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEA3mBCFcus
http://www.youtube.com/user/jfjweb/videos
Also I would ask you to please answer the original questions posed that you have studiously avoided.
The scriptures claim that God would restore the Jewish people in their disobedience for His Name's sake and I also ask who other than Yahweh could regather them?
The Jews are not ingathered and there is no Temple. Almost two thirds of the Jewish people live outside the Zionist "fatherland" and "paradise". When the prophecies are fulfilled you and I will both know it with the rest of the world.
Quote from: Dave2 on May 02, 2012, 08:05:05 AM
The Jews are not ingathered and there is no Temple. Almost two thirds of the Jewish people live outside the Zionist "fatherland" and "paradise". When the prophecies are fulfilled you and I will both know it with the rest of the world.
Oh so all those Jews there were not gathered? You do realize that if the Jews are regathered in their disobedience it is unlikely the Temple will be rebuilt by disobedient Jews and also unlikely that it would mean every single Jew in the world would be there right off the bat. You are laboring under some false doctrines that stand contrary to what God has said.
I cannot deal with this extent of ignorance and arrogance. You do not know what you are talking about. You don't know the prophets, you don't know the teachings of our sages and you don't know Hebrew or Aramaic. There is no point to discuss this matter unless you are prepared to understand where Judaism is coming from.
The ingathering of the Exiles will occur in the future upon the arrival of the true Messiah. This did not happen with the NT Jesus and it did not happen with the false messiah Shabtai Zvi or other false messiahs.
Quote from: Dave2 on May 02, 2012, 11:44:55 AM
I cannot deal with this extent of ignorance and arrogance. You do not know what you are talking about. You don't know the prophets, you don't know the teachings of our sages and you don't know Hebrew or Aramaic. There is no point to discuss this matter unless you are prepared to understand where Judaism is coming from.
The ingathering of the Exiles will occur in the future upon the arrival of the true Messiah. This did not happen with the NT Jesus and it did not happen with the false messiah Shabtai Zvi or other false messiahs.
You accuse us of arrogance and ignorance and yet you purposely avoid answering questions and change the subject when things get a little too close to home for you. I ask you what other Jew has brought more gentiles to knowledge of Yahweh?
First of all we do not use that sacred name in any discourse. We only refer to HASHEM. But for names, you might try Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Moses for starters.
Quote from: Dave2 on May 02, 2012, 03:36:53 PM
First of all we do not use that sacred name in any discourse. We only refer to HASHEM. But for names, you might try Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Moses for starters.
I am aware that Orthodox Jews do not utter or write the Divine Name of Yahweh. But He is my Father and it is the Name that He gave for those who follow Him to use. So try answering the question instead of obfuscating.
Quote from: Dave2 on April 27, 2012, 08:31:07 AM
So the board is working again. Anyway the State of Israel is not the fulfillment of the prophets. It was established by atheists who were sinful people before G-d who wanted to destroy the integrity of Judaism and the Jewish people with their sinful violent state. But were are told that the strength and power of the hand is the way of Esau not Jacob. The Zionists created Sodom and Gomorrah in Tel Aviv and are responsible for the deaths of untold numbers of Jews and Arabs.
AND the Zionists will never have peace as it is written : No peace says my G-d to the wicked.
Eyn shalom amar Elokai leReshaim! !
Quote from: resistingrexmundi on April 27, 2012, 09:12:10 AM
So are you always prone to ignoring points? As I said God alone is able to regather the Jewish people. Furthermore, you speak in monolithic terms as if the only one's responsible for the return are atheists.
Quote from: Dave2 on April 27, 2012, 09:33:09 AM
This is no return! To live there and commit all the sins is precisely why we were exiled in the first place. The Zionists were and are wretched Amalekites.
They have brainwashed millions of people with the evil disobedience of G-d.
Poor Dave, making the word of God of none effect through the empty tradition of those he places in a position of authority over him - just as the Pharisees that Jesus castigated did - but those men Dave puts in authority over him even cause him to deny the historical reality of Jesus ever even having existed (http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3238.msg13721#msg13721), that a man in the first century that claimed He was the Messiah never existed. Marching well beyond the reason of most of his Jewish brethren.
Resisting, perhaps you didn't include enough context in your original post. And maybe a little emphasis will help, and perhaps quoting the Tanach:
Ezekiel 36:17. "Son of man! The house of Israel, as long as they lived on their own land, they defiled it by their way and by their misdeeds, like the uncleanness of a woman in the period of her separation was their way before Me.
18. Wherefore I poured My wrath upon them for the blood that they had shed in the land, because they had defiled it with their idols.
19. And
I scattered them among the nations, and they were dispersed through the countries. According to their way and their misdeeds did I judge them.
20. And they entered the nations where they came, and
they profaned My Holy Name, inasmuch as it was said of them, 'These are the people of the Lord, and they have come out of His land.'21. But I had pity on My Holy Name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations to which they had come.
22. Therefore, say to the house of Israel;
So says the Lord God: Not for your sake do I do this, O house of Israel, but for My Holy Name, which you have profaned among the nations to which they have come.
23. And I will sanctify My great Name, which was profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst;
and the nations shall know that I am the Lord-is the declaration of the Lord God-when I will be sanctified through you before their eyes.
From this miracle even some heathen have seen what Dave has been made blind to.
24. For
I will take you from among the nations and gather you from all the countries, and I will bring you to your land.And AFTER that?25. And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you will be clean; from all your impurities and from all your abominations will I cleanse you.
26. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit will I put within you, and I will take away the heart of stone out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.
27. And I will put My spirit within you and bring it about that you will walk in My statutes and you will keep My ordinances and do [them].
28. Then will you dwell in the land that I gave your fathers, and you will be a people to Me, and I will be to you as a God.
Poor Dave, missing God's blessings all around. He's stuck in his little cult while even admitting that the vast majority of his Jewish brethren recognize the restoration of God's people to their land. The reason perhaps being, that rather than depending on the empty words of the men Dave puts in authority over him, they simply rely on the scriptures that God gave us that prophesy the restoration of God's people to their land, in so many places.
Yet in spite of the stunning historical reality, Dave is stuck having to believe that it is some sort of a weird and terrible accident! Perhaps some sort of a trick against God, even though the reason God performed this miracle, is for the sake of His name. Perhaps Dave believes the prophecies of the restoration in the scriptures refer to
some other restoration of God's covenant people to their covenant land.
(http://www.israelinbibleprophecy.com/07af4090.jpg)
What restoration? With the highest abortion rates, Mafias, gay rights and nothing but violence and desecration of that we hold sacred? We were thrown out for far less. Don't you see what's going on? Some restoration! Desecrating G-d's name! The miserable Zionist state is a wicked antinomian heresy!!
Quote from: Dave2 on May 10, 2012, 09:34:09 AM
Your arrogance about thousands of years of Judaism that your Christianity claims to fulfill is laughable. Every generation of Jews had judges and courts and Sanhedrins. Then come along people like you who says, "Na, it's all unnecessary. Just let every individual on his own figure out what it says and do whatever he wants from the written word by itself."
But that's just what the men in your tiny little cult, that you put in authority over you, did. You insist, on their behalf, that God was wrong for not wanting His name to continue to be profaned among the nations.
That's why you hate the majority of your Jewish brethren, and join Jew hating anti-Zionist Nazis, Muslims, skinheads, Soviets and the KKK in the Islamic conquest of Jews and Christians in Israel.
Here are some of your anti-Zionist friends that enjoy your support.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_X8dhrzQCHY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Rl0rZObP-c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dc8ZvVCaar4
Yet you remain blind to the miracle that even a heathen can see.
Stop spamming the forum with double posting (even included the half bracket in your copy and paste).
The post that I quoted from here went to spam, as the remainder of it is a duplicate of what was already answered here:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3238.msg13728#msg13728
Quote from: Dave2 on May 10, 2012, 09:49:13 PM
What restoration? With the highest abortion rates, Mafias, gay rights and nothing but violence and desecration of that we hold sacred?
As has been pointed out to you previously in less direct terms, you are a racist bigot that lumps faithful Israeli Jews in with atheists and agnostics, just like your Nazi, skinhead, Muslim and KKK Jew hating anti-Zionist racist partners do. A false accuser just as is prophesied for our times.
Do you really think that a unanimity of Jewish mankind - fallen from birth - will magically come to God when the exact opposite has been happening, particularly through the Islamic conquest of Israel that you support? Do you really think a secular Jew would have an easier time coming to know God while scattered among the gentile nations, or while in the company of lots of other faithful Jews in Israel? Are you awaiting the day when all Jews will magically join your little cult, even as Satan's anti-Zionist minions are responsible for the conquest and subjugation of God's people in Israel, to Muhammad's black stone idol prostrating followers?
Quote from: Dave2 on May 10, 2012, 09:49:13 PMWe were thrown out for far less. Don't you see what's going on? Some restoration! Desecrating G-d's name!
It is you that demands that God's name continue to be profaned through your scripture void posts. It is you that lies against God, according to the scriptures which proclaim His purpose in restoring His people to their covenant land to be the exact opposite, of your false accusation. It is you who is making demands of God against His purpose, as if He should continue desire to have His name profaned among the nations, because the men you put in authority over you disagree with Him. It's one thing to lie against God accidentally, but quite another to lie against Him in full knowledge.
Ezekiel 36:20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went,
they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These [are] the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land. 21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went. 22
Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD;
I do not [this] for your sakes, O house of Israel,
but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.23 And
I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I [am] the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. {their: or, your} 24 For
I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25
Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you... (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Eze&c=36&v=25&t=KJV#25)
Quote from: Dave2 on May 10, 2012, 09:49:13 PMEven a blind man can see the miracle of a people remaining a cohesive group while being scattered among the nations for over 2500 years, and then being restored to their covenant landQuote from: Dave2 on May 10, 2012, 09:49:13 PMThe miserable Zionist state is a wicked antinomian heresy!!
Perhaps to a scripture-ignorant Jew who walks in the traditions of men. But not according to God and His stated purpose in the scriptures.
All you do is speak in abstractions and cannot even apply what you think you believe in to actual events on the ground as I have described them. Life is more than vain abstractions.