This conversation to remain between Pete and psychlopes as I offered him assurances of that when I invited him.
Should we revisit Abraham as a subject?
Ok, sounds good to me... as your question, or put forth your claim, and I'll reply to it, if you feel unsatisfied we'll keep addressing the issue, however we should have a mechanism for realizing when we've reached an impasse.
Quote from: psychlopes on August 02, 2009, 09:10:46 AM
Ok, sounds good to me... as your question, or put forth your claim, and I'll reply to it, if you feel unsatisfied we'll keep addressing the issue, however we should have a mechanism for realizing when we've reached an impasse.
Hey psy. Thank you and welcome to the forum. :)
I think we'll be able to work things out OK, or figure out a "mechanism" as we go.
OK, good enough for me. How about a one-day limit on replying, a person might be busy for less than that might not be enough, but more than that might be too slow.
Quote from: psychlopes on August 02, 2009, 09:14:13 AM
OK, good enough for me. How about a one-day limit on replying, a person might be busy for less than that might not be enough, but more than that might be too slow.
How bout we leave it unlimited and see how it develops?
OK
[The prior post was removed, as it is repeated below, but in better order]
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=16&v=1&t=KJV#1
Abraham's wife Sarah believed herself to be too advanced in age to bear a child so...
Gen 16:1 Now Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name [was] Hagar. 2 And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai. 3 And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife. 4 And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes. 5 And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong [be] upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the LORD judge between me and thee. 6 But Abram said unto Sarai, Behold, thy maid [is] in thy hand; do to her as it pleaseth thee. And when Sarai dealt hardly with her, she fled from her face.
Gen 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I [am] the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. 2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
Gen 17:15 And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah [shall] her name [be].
16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be [a mother] of nations; kings of people shall be of her.
So the Lord allowed Sarah to bear a son.
17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall [a child] be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?
18 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!
19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, [and] with his seed after him.
So God established His covenant with the seed of Isaac.
20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. 21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year. 22 And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.
I know you're still writing, so I don't mean to interrupt, but I just want to remind you to please give a clear cut question or claim in the end that needs response.
Quote from: psychlopes on August 02, 2009, 09:48:10 AM
I know you're still writing, so I don't mean to interrupt, but I just want to remind you to please give a clear cut question or claim in the end that needs response.
Yes. I should have organized it better before I posted it.
We see that God's covenant is with the seed of Isaac. Is that your understanding?
That is my understanding of what came in the bible, yes.
Quote from: psychlopes on August 02, 2009, 10:05:53 AM
That is my understanding of what came in the bible, yes.
That is the understanding that God's people have had for 3500 years, including the 2000 years before Mohammed was ever born.
I still do not see the question? If you want to prove that we don't see eye-to-eye on this, then I agree. The fact that Jews have held this belief for centuries even before our prophet was born is not a proof of the validity of the claim. Ishmael was the son of an Egyptian woman, who was also Sarah's handmaiden, So Jews had a motive for denying that Ishmael was included in the covenant and in God's blessing. In either case, Muslims believe both Ishmael and Isaac were God's prophets and they were both righteous people - you don't believe Ishmael was a prophet which is your prerogative, but depending on the bible to prove your point of view is not practical, since as a Muslim I believe the bible is not the pure word of God, people in the far east have beliefs that date further back in time than that, and I don't think you would argue that Hinduism or Buddhism etc... is correct simply because it's ancient.
Quote from: psychlopes on August 02, 2009, 10:30:47 AM
I still do not see the question?
Since I don't know exactly what Muslims believe about this my question was "Is that your understanding?"
Quote from: psychlopes on August 02, 2009, 10:30:47 AMIf you want to prove that we don't see eye-to-eye on this, then I agree.
Then show me your understanding and the basis on which you understand it.
Quote from: psychlopes on August 02, 2009, 10:30:47 AMThe fact that Jews have held this belief for centuries even before our prophet was born is not a proof of the validity of the claim.
So that Jews understood this for the 2000 years before Mohammed is invalid.
Quote from: psychlopes on August 02, 2009, 10:30:47 AMIshmael was the son of an Egyptian woman, who was also Sarah's handmaiden, So Jews had a motive for denying that Ishmael was included in the covenant and in God's blessing.
But Ishmael was with Sarah's handmaiden Hagar, and Isaac was with Abraham's wife Sarah.
You even agree.
Surely you can then see that the only "reason" to suspect Isaac's half-brother was actually the one the covenant, and that the Jews got it wrong for 2000 years, didn't come along until the 7th century.
[I will break this into separate posts.]
Quote from: psychlopes on August 02, 2009, 10:30:47 AMIn either case, Muslims believe both Ishmael and Isaac were God's prophets and they were both righteous people - you don't believe Ishmael was a prophet ....
I believe Ishmael was Isaac's half-brother as do you.
Abraham threw Hagar and Ishmael out of the house for Ishmael's mocking of Isaac:
Genesis 21:8 And the child grew, and was weaned: and Abraham made a great feast the [same] day that Isaac was weaned. 9 And Sarah saw THE SON OF HAGAR the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, MOCKING.
Thereby disowning Ishmael. Here's how we know:
10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: FOR THE SON OF THIS BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE HEIR WITH MY SON, [even] with ISAAC.
Abraham took Sarah's advice and cast out Hagar and Ishmael, thereby disowning the son he had with Sarah's handmaiden. What did God think about that?
Genesis 21:12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for IN ISAAC SHALL THY SEED BE CALLED.
So God comforted Abraham in having done the right thing by listening to Sarah and throwing out Ishamel for his mocking. We see in the 22:2 that God doesn't even recognize Ishmael as a son of Abraham:
Genesis 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, THINE ONLY [SON] ISAAC, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
"Surely you can then see that the only "reason" to suspect Isaac's half-brother was actually the one the covenant, and that the Jews got it wrong for 2000 years, didn't come along until the 7th century."
Yes, the reason to suspect came later in time, however what we as Muslims say is that the time interval doesn't matter because the correction (at least to Muslims) came from God. If we claimed that this is the understanding of some historian who came like you said centuries after the event , I would agree with you about it being suspicious, but we're telling you that it came from God. Anyway, I'll need some time to gather sources to present you the basis of my belief, but they are not proof of my view point any more that quoting the bible for me is proof of yours.
Quote from: psychlopes on August 02, 2009, 10:30:47 AM......which is your prerogative, but depending on the bible to prove your point of view is not practical,.....
Why don't you quote from the Quran to make your point?
Quote from: psychlopes on August 02, 2009, 10:30:47 AM..... since as a Muslim I believe the bible is not the pure word of God,......
I do understand that you must necessarily REJECT ALL of the prophets of the 1600 year record of the bible to follow the 23 year 7th century record of Mohammed.
Perhaps you don't understand the Jew's scribal methodology.
"To suggest there was tampering to the Old Testament documents prior to 300 B.C. shows a misunderstanding of Israelite scribal methodology and of their reverence for the Scriptures. First of all, biblical scrolls were written on the inside only to prevent any smudging or smearing that might lead to a misreading of the text. When being copied -- besides many parallel readings -- the copy was compared with the original in every way humanly possible.
The words in each column were counted and then the letters. The first, last, and middle letter and word in each column had to be identical to the original. If the number of words or the number of letters of the copy differed from the original, the copy was destroyed. Then they counted the words and letters in the whole document. They divided the document into quarters and into eighths. The first, last and middle letter in each section had to be the same. The number of words and the number of letters in each section had to be the same. The middle word and the middle letter in each section had to be the same, and they had to be the same for the whole document. If not, the copy was destroyed. Not corrected, but destroyed!"
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=97.0
Compare that to the Quran that requires abrogation of a whopping 71 out of only 114 suras because of the changing whims of it's author: http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=116.0
Well that is the bible's account of things, in Islam Abraham did separate between Hagar and Sarah, Hagar went to Mecca (Arabia) with her son, but it wasn't because Ishmael mocked Isaac, and he didn't disown Ishmael, Abraham kept visiting them in Arabia - and Abraham built the Kabaa there (I think with the help of Ishmael if I'm not mistaken). As for the reason, some scholars say it is because he feared Sarah's jealousy because Hagar gave birth to the first born son for Abraham, but I have no concrete evidence of that last part (at least to my knowledge - haven't researched the matter greatly). Anyway. I need to go now, I'll be back later god willing to answer the other part of your question with references. please don't add too many new comments, I don't want to be overwhelmed when I come back.
"Why don't you quote from the Quran to make your point?"
Like I said earlier, I will, however unfortunately I've not reached the point of memorizing by heart all the verses that I need to answer you thoroughly. I'll get back to you.
Quote from: psychlopes on August 02, 2009, 10:53:03 AM
"Surely you can then see that the only "reason" to suspect Isaac's half-brother was actually the one the covenant, and that the Jews got it wrong for 2000 years, didn't come along until the 7th century."
Yes, the reason to suspect came later in time, however what we as Muslims say is that the time interval doesn't matter because the correction (at least to Muslims) came from God. If we claimed that this is the understanding of some historian who came like you said centuries after the event , I would agree with you about it being suspicious, but we're telling you that it came from God.
But the bible is filled with fulfilled prophecy that proves it's veracity through prophet after prophet. Yet as far as I know not a single prophecy of mohammed's has come to pass.
You follow Mohammed in direct contradiction to the prophets and "messengers" of the bible even though his "revelations" were without a single witness. Muslims rely solely on
Mohammed's singular account, of what he claimed, Allah told him. Indeed so often did Mohammed come up with a new "revelation" soon after visiting his good friend and former "christian" Jabr, that the local nickname for Jabr became "holy spirit".
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=452.0
So conspicuous and widespread was this view of Jabr, that Mohammed even had to attempt some damage control in the form of a sura:
Sura 16.103 We know indeed that they say, "It is a man that teaches him." The tongue of him they wickedly point to is notably foreign, while this is Arabic, pure and clear.
The bible is filled with men confirming each other.
Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that
in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And being confirmed through prophecy.
Quote from: psychlopes on August 02, 2009, 10:53:03 AMAnyway, I'll need some time to gather sources to present you the basis of my belief, but they are not proof of my view point any more that quoting the bible for me is proof of yours.
I can quote you prophecy after prophecy that has been fulfilled by many different prophets - including Jesus.
I follow ALL of the prophets of the bible, and you follow a single 7th century prophet that contradicted them.
One that even had a special "revelation" from Allah to allow him to steal his stepson's wife, for example.
You seem to be suggesting that God would allow His people to walk in an error as egregious - indeed opposite - for 2000 years, before sending Mohammed along to straighten His people out.
Does that really make sense to you? Could you really think you could possibly believe that, if you hadn't been trained to?
Quote from: psychlopes on August 02, 2009, 11:04:10 AM
Well that is the bible's account of things, in Islam Abraham did separate between Hagar and Sarah, Hagar went to Mecca (Arabia) with her son, but it wasn't because Ishmael mocked Isaac, and he didn't disown Ishmael,......
But as I showed you earlier, even God disowned Ishmael as a son to Abraham, referring to Isaac as Abraham's ONLY SON.
It is obvious in the text that Sarah made a mistake in her plan for producing a son with her handmaiden.
Quote from: psychlopes on August 02, 2009, 11:04:10 AM..... Abraham kept visiting them in Arabia - and Abraham built the Kabaa there (I think with the help of Ishmael if I'm not mistaken). As for the reason, some scholars say it is because he feared Sarah's jealousy because Hagar gave birth to the first born son for Abraham,.....
But Ishmael was to be Sarah's son, not Hagar's. Hagar was the one with reason to be jealous, and she was:
5 And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong [be] upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes:
Later on, God allowed Sarah to bear.
Quote from: psychlopes on August 02, 2009, 11:04:10 AM.... but I have no concrete evidence of that last part (at least to my knowledge - haven't researched the matter greatly). Anyway. I need to go now, I'll be back later god willing to answer the other part of your question with references.
If you want to move on to another subject that requires less research (and being a Christian I am a little less versed in the Old Testament than the new myself).
How about my allegation that Mohammed was a thief?Quote from: psychlopes on August 02, 2009, 11:04:10 AMplease don't add too many new comments, I don't want to be overwhelmed when I come back.
You make a claim of corruption of the bible, but did it ever strike you as to how perfectly opposite Mohammed's book is? One could ponder a little detail here or there, but element after element is the perfect opposite. Like Sarah being jealous rather than Hagar for example.
Sarah was Abraham's wife. She believed herself too advanced in age to conceive a child for Abraham. Her plan was to use her handmaiden Hagar, to have a child, to be raised as Abraham and Sarah's son.
What reason would Sarah have to be jealous of Hagar, when God finally made her able to have her own legitimate son with her husband Abraham?
Do you really think God would allow His book to be changed, to be the PERFECT OPPOSITE, of the understanding that His people have had for 3500 years?
It's not a matter of researching the answer, but rather digging up the references. I know what I want to say, it's the supporting verses and whatnot that I need time with, I would rather we stick to the topic at hand a while longer, because you made some allegations that I would like to address. Anyway it won't be long, I just need to go with the family to meet some friends, and when I'm back later in the evening I will reply. I Remember whatever other questions you have till later, but also remember that after this I'll get to challenge you with a question or two of my own before you get to ask me again. Or at least I thought I made it clear that this is my wish regarding how to discuss here.
Quote from: psychlopes on August 02, 2009, 01:09:29 PM
It's not a matter of researching the answer, but rather digging up the references. I know what I want to say, it's the supporting verses and whatnot that I need time with, I would rather we stick to the topic at hand a while longer, because you made some allegations that I would like to address. Anyway it won't be long, I just need to go with the family to meet some friends, and when I'm back later in the evening I will reply. I Remember whatever other questions you have till later, but also remember that after this I'll get to challenge you with a question or two of my own before you get to ask me again. Or at least I thought I made it clear that this is my wish regarding how to discuss here.
This source isn't bad for word searches in the Quran, and easy to copy and paste. All you need to remember is a word or two from the verse you are seeking. Yusuf Ali translation is second down on the upper left drop-down menu:
http://www.islamicity.com/Quransearch/
This bears singling out and repeating:
Muslims rely solely on Mohammed's singular account - that is they take his word for - what he claimed, Allah revealed to him.
Then they turn around, and without hesitation, say it is Allah's own words.
Including even the self-serving suras like the one where Allah accommodated Mohammed's taking of his stepson's wife, and the one that allowed only Mohammed all the wives he wanted. http://www.beholdthebeast.com/#prophet The ones that allow sexually enslaving the daughters and wives of the vanquished. http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=456.0
Yet NONE of his "revelations" were witnessed by others and not a single prophecy has been fulfilled.
Stunningly, on that basis, Muslims are willing to reject the 1600 year record of God's Word, that His people have followed faithfully for 3500 years, revealed through many dozens of prophets and witnesses, that had stunning fulfillment of their prophecies, for a 7th century come lately that contradicted those prophets and taught the exact opposite of Jesus Christ. http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=148.0 Prophets of the Old Testament that Jews and Christians consider the inerrant Word of God, and the New Testament that Christians consider the inerrant Word of God, replaced by a 23 year record, recited by a single 7th century illiterate, that was left in such a mess that a whopping 71 out of only 114 suras are subject to abrogation.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=116.0
The inspiration:
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=452.0
Surah 5:101 O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble....
1Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
102 Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith.
Here's what they lost their faith in Mohammed to:
Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
"Allah has hated for you three things: ... 3. And asking too many questions (in disputed religious matters)." (Dr. Khan, Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol. 2, #555)
See , you're taking advantage of the fact that I'm getting too busy to answer you quickly, that you are showering me with new claims, when we agreed on taking things one claim at a time, and only one claim per turn per person. I'm a Subtitler, and I have 3 files that should be delivered by the end of today or I'll lose an account.I would love to answer you more quickly, but you're the one who said pop-up whenever you can, and keep response time unlimited, right? so, please respect the terms we agreed on, and wait for my response, I'm not running away from the fight, but I'll tackle one point at a time, and since you're the one who suggested it, I'll do it at my own pace.
Peace
Quote from: psychlopes on August 03, 2009, 12:03:34 PM
See , you're taking advantage of the fact that I'm getting too busy to answer you quickly, that you are showering me with new claims,
Not at all. Regarding Abraham and Ishmael we are at an impasse.
You wrote: "Well that is the bible's account of things..."
So for the time being we can see that there would be little point in pursuing that particular topic.
Jews and Christians follow the account detailed in the 1300 year record of the Old Testament, through all of the prophets and witnesses, and have followed that record for 3500 years.
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=6B907B1E2434DE4C
You follow Mohammed's 7th century account of them through his unwitnessed, and thus unconfirmed, 23 year record.
That's why I thought it appropriate to take a pause to discuss our respective sources a little.
The only other additional subject you were "showered with" was to offer you a link to a convenient search, and copy and paste, source for the Quran to save your time.
Quote from: psychlopes on August 03, 2009, 12:03:34 PMwhen we agreed on taking things one claim at a time, and only one claim per turn per person. I'm a Subtitler, and I have 3 files that should be delivered by the end of today or I'll lose an account.I would love to answer you more quickly, but you're the one who said pop-up whenever you can, and keep response time unlimited, right? so, please respect the terms we agreed on, and wait for my response, I'm not running away from the fight, but I'll tackle one point at a time, and since you're the one who suggested it, I'll do it at my own pace.
Peace
You were the one that initially proposed "...How about a one-day limit on replying".
I was the one that said the post would be waiting for a day, week, or months, as in our February chat.
It will continue to be waiting for you.
Thanks, I know I proposed the one day limit, but since you said keep it open/unlimited, I'm taking you up on that offer, because as it happens I needed the time. As for the Abraham issue, you asked me to give you references about our view and to explain it further, which is what I'm going to do, it wasn't an impasse per se, because you didn't ask anything that I couldn't answer, you just gave a statement about how your record is older than mine, which if you ask me doesn't prove anything, anyway, like I said, please give me some time, and we'll move forward, don't worry, I think we're going to be discussing things for quite sometime, and I'm not going anywhere.
P.S. your comments contained a lot of claims that need to be addressed like "how perfectly opposite Mohammed's book is?" and "Mohammad has no prophecies" etc... every single one of these is a claim you're putting forth as if they cannot be challenged, which is why I asked you to hold your horses until I get back to you on the original topic.
Quote from: psychlopes on August 03, 2009, 03:09:45 PM
P.S. your comments contained a lot of claims that need to be addressed like "how perfectly opposite Mohammed's book is?" and "Mohammad has no prophecies" etc... every single one of these is a claim you're putting forth as if they cannot be challenged, which is why I asked you to hold your horses until I get back to you on the original topic.
That will offer an opportunity to kill two birds with one stone. Consolidating addressing the veracity of the books we hold, through
the most extremely and perfectly opposite elements. The Christian understanding of Jesus as the only begotten Son of God, and Mohammed's specific denial of Jesus as the Son of God, confession that Jesus is the Son of God not only constituting the most egregious - but only unpardonable - sin in Islam.
That the whole subject of the New Testament (new covenant) which is fulfilled by salvation through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. Islam rejects all of the prophets and apostles of the new covenant in denying that Jesus even died on the cross.
Good place to start. Looking forward to it.
Regarding Mohammed's fulfilled prophecies I am looking forward to learning about them from you. My prior understanding from Muslims is there are none.
Let's cover them in this order:
1. the opposite nature of Islam and Christianity.
2. the Quran compared to the bible.
3. fulfilled prophecy in the Quran and in the bible.
If you want to continue with our conversation about Abraham (but probably better we spend our time with central core issues) then we should first visit #2 because, as you said, "Well that is the bible's account of things...".
If any other Muslims would like to explore these topics with me please simply start another thread.
Hello Pete, hope you didn't miss me too much :)
I've finally finished that deadline, so today I have some free time to spend responding to your comments, please try not to answer until I've completed my responses, which I'll indicate in the last comment I send. This is only for the sake of neatness and so as not to get mangled in a net of reciprocated responses.
Quote from: psychlopes on August 05, 2009, 09:41:02 AM
Hello Pete, hope you didn't miss me too much :)
I
did miss you desperately, my friend!
Quote from: psychlopes on August 05, 2009, 09:41:02 AM
I've finally finished that deadline, so today I have some free time to spend responding to your comments, please try not to answer until I've completed my responses, which I'll indicate in the last comment I send. This is only for the sake of neatness and so as not to get mangled in a net of reciprocated responses.
OK - best to keep it simple. But if it is longer you can begin it with a header like "don't answer this yet" so you don't accidentally loose a lot of work by pushing a wrong button (though when you push the back button it usually takes you back to your post intact).
Few things are more frustrating than spending a half hour on a post and then loosing it to a misstep.
Then when you are done entering and editing simply remove the "don't answer this yet" from the beginning.
Or at least keep copy and pasting it into a word document.
Well it's been a few days psy, so let me kick off point 1.
1. the opposite nature of Islam and Christianity.
The Blood of Jesus - the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rev&c=13&v=8&t=KJV#8
The whole subject of the New Testament is the new covenant (both New Testament terms come from the same Greek word).
covenant
New Testament Greek Definition:
1242 diatheke {dee-ath-ay'-kay}
from 1303; TDNT - 2:106,157; n f
AV - covenant 20, testament 13; 33
1) a disposition, arrangement, of any sort, which one wishes to
be valid, the last disposition which one makes of his earthly
possessions after his death, a testament or will
2) a compact, a covenant, a testament
2a) God's covenant with Noah, etc.
That new covenant came through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. It is the whole subject of the New Testament that was written by witnesses that walked and talked with and followed Jesus.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4rtYAO3UxA
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=537.0
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
The wages of sin is death. It doesn't matter how many. Old Testament or New:
Hbr 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Even Muslims believe that the first drop of blood shed by one of their so-called "martyrs" (imperialist aggressor killed in times past, or as some Muslims consider today a suicide bomber) may provide propitiation for the sins of 70 of his nearest and dearest friends and relatives. Yet Mohammed's teaching necessarily prevents them from understanding that God could have manifest, or revealed Himself, in the flesh of a man, Jesus Christ, to provide the same for all who believe in His shed blood. One sacrifice for ever.
Real martyrs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4rtYAO3UxA and those that have been martyred over the last 2,000 years for the testimony of Jesus Christ:
http://www.biblebelievers.com/foxes/findex.htm
http://www.homecomers.org/mirror/
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/great_tribulation.htm
Hbr 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Hbr 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.
God manifest Himself in Jesus Christ to provide the perfect example to all mankind. A sinless man that would provide the perfect sacrifice. The Lamb of God. As Abraham took Isaac up onto the mount he declared:
Gen 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
But the substitute that God provided at the time of that story was a ram, as the Lamb of God was yet to come in the distant future.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=22&v=8&t=KJV#13
Jhn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Once we have a relationship with God, through Jesus Christ, the law is pressed in our hearts, just as was prophesied of the new covenant during the old covenant. http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=537.0
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Jesus' crucifixion was prophesied hundreds of years before the event in the Old Testament:
Psalms 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I may tell all my bones: they look [and] stare upon me. 18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
Fulfilled in Jesus Christ:
Mat 27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.
Mohammed taught THE EXACT OPPOSITE:
Surah 4.157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
Thus rejecting ALL of the New Testament prophets and apostles, the Old Testament prophecies, and the whole subject of the new covenant.
____________________
Jesus Christ - The Son of God
(44 verses in just this simple serach reveal the article "the" in reference to THE Son of God: http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=%22the+son+of+god%22&t=KJV )
The Son of God's coming was prophesied hundreds of years before Jesus was made manifest to us.
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Fulfilled in Jesus Christ
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Jesus and God are coexistent. Jesus is the way God chose to bring us to Him. The way He revealed Himself to mankind. The ONLY mediator. He has been the only path to God since mankind's beginnings. There are many Christophanies in the Old Testament. Like this one of over 500 BC where Nebuchadnezzar put Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego in an oven to roast, and a 4th showed up among them:
Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Dan&c=3&v=25&t=KJV#25
Christians hold the doctrine of Christ:
2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
The most widely quoted verse, and apt summary of the new covenant is:
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Here are several witnesses that heard the same thing:
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Mar 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, [saying], Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Luk 3:22 ...and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
2Pe 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
How many witnesses ever heard Gabriel or Allah speak to Mohammed? Muslims are stuck taking Mohammed's word for what he said he heard. That's why the Quran is the best witness against itself with 71 out of only 114 suras subject to abrogation:
2:106 (Asad) Any message which, We annul or consign to oblivion We replace with a better or a similar one. Dost thou not know that God has the power to will anything?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=116.0
Are we to believe that God is the author of confusion? Of course not. It's all right there in His Word:
1Cr 14:33 For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
Even Muslims believe that Jesus is the only person in the history of the world to be conceived by a virgin by the will of God, yet they must force themselves to reject Him as God's Son and call Him fatherless. Thus rejecting the vast majority of verses that include the very definite article "THE" in reference to Jesus being the only begotten Son of God:
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=55.0
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=56.0
And most of the 234 verses that declare God as His Father many Jesus' own declaration:
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=316.0
Mohammed taught the EXACT OPPOSITE:
Sura 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!
To the extent of fighting against and cursing God's people:
Surah 9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. 30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
But God is about love, not killing those that disagree with us:
Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
(The Roman Church murder of Jews, Muslims AND Christians explored in the Roman Church section. http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=7.0 )
Sura 8:12 I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them
We only need these two PERFECT OPPOSITES to understand that Mohammed's is the ONLY anti-another-religion, religion, on earth, by design. The two most important tenants in Christianity are the worst things a Muslim can believe.
Indeed if a Muslim were to confess that Jesus is the Son of God he has committed the greatest, AND ONLY UNPARDONABLE, sin in Islam - "shirk".
It cannot be reasonably argued that Islam is not the direct opposite of Christianity, since the two most important fundamentals, are perfectly opposed.
It should, therefore, be obvious that one must choose. The God of the Jews and Christians that His people have followed for 3500 years through ALL of the "messengers' of the 1600 year record of His Word, or Mohammed and his stand-alone 23 year, 7th century, record that curses Jews and Christians.
I look forward to your response before moving on to item #2 unless it is not forthcoming in which case I will proceed. If that's the case you can easily catch up by moving through the posts in order.
I have to admit I've taken advantage of your generosity when it comes to the factor of time regarding my replies, so here is my reply to the part about Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael, I have to admit I had to borrow a lot from online sources, but only the parts that I wanted to say but found that it had been already put in much better words than I could. Peace...
Ishmael is a highly regarded person in the Qur'an. Ishmael enjoined upon his people worship and almsgiving, and was acceptable in the sight of his Lord (Qur'an 19:55).
The Qur'an mentions Ishmael with other people like Elisha, Jonah and Lot, who are considered righteous, good or chosen (Qur'an 6:86 and Qur'an 38:48)
Abraham and Ishmael are said to have built the foundations of the Ka'aba ('They were raising the foundations of the House', Qur'an 2:127). Meccans, and most Arabs at the time of Muhammad, believed that Isma'il settled in Mecca and built with Abraham the Ka'ba which they revered from old times.
Abraham conceives a son with Hagar when Sarah is unable to bear children. Then, after many years, Sarah miraculously gives birth to Isaac. After some time upon God's command, Abraham sends Hagar and Ishmael to the desert with God's promise of protection. The Quran takes a special interest in Hagar and her son, through whom Arabs trace their connection to Abraham. Each year during the Hajj (the ritual pilgrimage) in Mecca, pilgrims re-enact Hagar's desperate search for water for her infant son, running seven times between two hills and drawing water from the well of Zam Zam, said to have sprung miraculously from the dry earth at the baby Ishmael�s feet. The full story is mentioned in Sahih Bukhari[4].
The Qur'an stresses twice that it does not make distinction between the revelations by Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the tribes (i.e. the sons of Jacob), and that which Moses and Jesus revealed, and that which other prophets received from their Lord. (Qur'an 2:136 and Qur'an 3:84)
Another reference where the name of Ishmael appears is where the Qur'an states that he was inspired in the same manner as prophets like Noah, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and Jesus and Job and Jonah and Aaron and Solomon.
Muslims believe that when Abraham peace be upon him, the father of Isaac and Ishmael (Ismail), offered his son for sacrifice for GOD Almighty, he offered Ishmael. Jews and Christians believe that he offered Isaac.
The Jews and Christians believe that any son or daughter born from a Servant or Slave woman is not considered a biological son or daughter. Muslims on the other hand, believe that any son or daughter born from any mother is a biological son or daughter. Not only that, but the slave woman instantly becomes free.
Jews, Christians and Muslims all agree that Ishmael peace be upon him was 13 years older than Isaac peace be upon him. This means that the Muslims' claim is much closer to the Truth than the Jews' and Christians', because if we were to believe that Abraham offered Isaac for sacrifice to GOD Almighty, then he would've waited at least 13 years to do so if not even longer.
The bible of the jews and Christians is corrut by the admition of the bible itself - "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"
Deuteronomy 31:25-29 where Moses peace be upon him predicted the corruption/tampering of the Law (Bible) after his death. The Book of Moses predicted that the Law (Bible) will get corrupted. The Book of Jeremiah which came approximately 826 years after did indeed confirm this corruption.
"And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, That Moses commanded the Levites(Jews), which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee. For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the LORD; and how much more after my death? Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them. For I know that after my death ye will become utterly corrupt, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands. (Deuteronomy 31:25-29)"
Could it be that the Jews in order for them to prove their theory about them being GOD's "Chosen People" that they altered the Bible and came up a claim such as a son born from a Slave woman is not considered a biological son to enforce Isaac's position since he came from a Jewish mother, and to make the Jews look even more superior? Don't forget that Sarah according to the bible was Abrahams sister. So this is claiming that the son of an insist relationship if more ligitimate than the son born of a slave woman.
"Historically, Jews and Christians alike have held that Moses was the author/compiler of the first five books of the OT. These books, known also as the Pentateuch (meaning "five-volumed book"), were referred to in Jewish tradition as the five fifths of the law (of Moses). The Bible itself suggests Mosaic authorship of Genesis, since Ac 15:1 refers to circumcision as "the custom taught by Moses," an allusion of Ge 17. However, a certain amount of later editorial updating does appear to be indicated (see, e.g., notes on 14:14; 36:31; 47:11). (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 2)"
So in reality, the book of Genesis had been tampered with by man. It had been corrupted.
As we clearly see above, the author of the Book of Hebrews is not known. This means that anyone could've written this Book/Letter. This obviously would mean that the Book/Letter then would in no way be the True Living Words of GOD Almighty.
We also clearly see above, that the Book of Genesis had been altered and updated by people after Moses peace be upon him. Again, it is highly possible that when the Jews altered the Book of Genesis, they made it persuade the reader that Isaac was the son to be sacrificed, because his mother was Jewish. They also inserted the false claim, that any son born from a Slave woman is not considered a biological son.
Let us look at what God Almighty Said:
"'O my Lord! grant me a righteous (son)!' So We gave him the good news of a boy ready to suffer and forbear. Then when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, He said: 'O my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: Now see what is thy view!' (The son) said: 'O my father! Do as thou art commanded: Thou wilt find me, if Allah so wills one practising patience and constancy!' (The Noble Quran, 37:100-102)"
Here we see Abraham peace be upon him prayed to Allah Almighty to grant him a righteous son. This was in the fertile land of Syria and Palestine. The boy thus born was, according to Muslim tradition, (which however is not unanimous to this point), the first-born son of Abraham, Ismail or Ishmael. The name itself is from the root Samia, to hear, because Allah had heard Abraham's prayer (Noble Verse 37:100). Abraham's age when Ismail was born was 86.
Let us use some logic here: As I mentioned, the Bible claims that Abraham offered his son Isaac for sacrifice, and the Noble Quran claims that he offered Ishmael (No explicitly but through various evidence found in the verses), who was 13 years older than Isaac for sacrifice. So, we have the Bible's word against the Noble Quran's.
Also, "Ishma" means "to hear", and "el" is from the Jewish word meaning god, then Abraham had named Ishmael him as such, because Allah Almighty heard his prayer and granted him a son, his first-born son Ishmael.
Abraham was so happy to have his first-born son Ishmael at a very old age, that he named him a name that symbolizes his long patience and his gratefulness to GOD Almighty that he finally Heard Abraham and granted him his wish that he'd always wanted. Remember that Abraham was 86 when Ishmael was born. So Ishmael was NOT as the corrupted Bible claims, a not considered biological son to Abraham. Abraham adored Ishmael and loved him so dearly. The proof to this is as I said, Ishmael's name.
Important Note: As I mentioned above, Ishmael was 13 years older than Isaac, and Abraham loved GOD Almighty very much that he wanted to sacrifice his own son for Him. If Ishmael's name represents Abraham's gratefulness to GOD Almighty after a desperate long wait to have a son, then it makes perfect sense that Abraham wanted to sacrifice Ishmael to GOD Almighty by giving Him the most precious thing he ever had.
Let us continue reading what God Almighty Said in the Noble Quran:
"So when they had both [Abraham and Ishmael] submitted their wills (to Allah), and he had laid him prostrated on his forehead (for sacrifice), We called out to him, 'O Abraham! Thou hast already fulfilled the vision! - thus indeed do We reward those who do right. For this was obviously a trial - and We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice: And We left (this blessing) for him among generations (to come) in later times: 'peace and salutation to Abraham!' Thus indeed do We reward those who do right. (The Noble Quran, 37:103-110)"
Note (in Noble Verse 37:103) that the sacrifice was demanded of both Abraham and Ismail. It was a trial of the will of the father and the son. By way of trial the father had the command conveyed to him in a vision. He consulted the son. The son readily consented, and offered to stand true to his promise if his self-sacrifice was really required. The whole things is symbolical. Allah does not require the flesh and blood of animals (Noble Verse 22:37), much less of human beings. But he does require the giving of our whole being to Allah, the symbol of which is that we should give up something very dear to us, if duty requires that sacrifice. [3]
"For he [Abraham] was one of our believing Servants. And we gave him the good news [a second-born son to come] of Isaac - a Prophet - One of the Righteous. (The Noble Quran, 37:111-112)"
Isaac was Abraham's second son, born of Sarah, when Abraham was 100 years of age. He was also blessed and became the ancestor of the Jewish people.
OK, now if you wish to discuss this point further, ask your questions, or if you feel satisfied (but not convinced I'm sure) you can give me another topic to tackle, I wold appreciate it if you don't force me to go back to fish for topics from earlier discussions, if you wish copy and paste here the next topic you think we should discuss. :)
But please, restrict it to one topic/claim at a time, sometimes you tend to wander off into different topics and claims while discussing the one at hand, please try your best to avoid that, I'm easily overwhelmed :P
I know I told you that I'm free now, but I actually got a new project to work on, but this time I'll do my best to answer as quickly as possible.
Quote from: psychlopes on August 08, 2009, 11:04:42 AM
I have to admit I've taken advantage of your generosity when it comes to the factor of time regarding my replies,
Not generous at all. Everyone has always been welcome to take days weeks or months. To post when they are moved to, or when they are prepared to. That's what makes this conspicuously NOT debate.
Debate is the liar's lair as it is purely a test of the skill and practice of the debater and has little to do with truth. When I was in school the state of the art was convincing a room full of people that something was true, that they all should have been able to reason under normal circumstances, was patently false.
Quote from: psychlopes on August 08, 2009, 11:04:42 AMso here is my reply to the part about Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael, I have to admit I had to borrow a lot from online sources, but only the parts that I wanted to say but found that it had been already put in much better words than I could. Peace...
Ishmael is a highly regarded person in the Qur'an. Ishmael enjoined upon his people worship and almsgiving, and was acceptable in the sight of his Lord (Qur'an 19:55).
The Qur'an mentions Ishmael with other people like Elisha, Jonah and Lot, who are considered righteous, good or chosen (Qur'an 6:86 and Qur'an 38:48)
Abraham and Ishmael are said to have built the foundations of the Ka'aba ('They were raising the foundations of the House', Qur'an 2:127). Meccans, and most Arabs at the time of Muhammad, believed that Isma'il settled in Mecca and built with Abraham the Ka'ba which they revered from old times.
But there is no record of Abraham ever having traveled to the area where Mecca was eventually built.
Just as you said of the account in the book Jews and Christians have followed for 3500 years, I respond similarly that that is what Islam teaches.
So let's revisit the Abraham Isaac and Ishmael portions of your post after - (and and parts applicable to the integrity of the Quran and bible, during) - discussion on point #2 re Bible and Quran.
That's why I thought it would be more productive to move off of this tangent subject, and to the three points that address the cores of our respective beliefs.
The first of those being the opposite nature of Islam from Christianity as detailed in my prior post.
Do you understand that Christianity and Islam are polar opposites? If not why not?
(I have got a pretty big project before me as well.)
Quote from: psychlopes on August 08, 2009, 11:24:28 AM
But please, restrict it to one topic/claim at a time...
It's been a while now so I'll simply kick off point #2 since you didn't - and I don't believe it can be - reasonably argued (at least you haven't yet) that the fundamentals of Mohammed's and his Quran, are the exact opposite of the fundamentals of those that follow Jesus Christ as revealed through the New Testament.
Therefore what also cannot be argued is that one of our beliefs is WRONG to the
DIRECT OPPOSITE EXTREME.
Son of God (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=56.0) - and doctrine (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=2Jo&c=1&v=9&t=KJV#9) of Christ
VS "shirk" - requiring specific denial that Jesus is the Son of God within the most important fundamental of Islam.
Crucified to save us - the
whole subject of the New Testament/covenant
VS not crucified
rejecting all of the New Testament witnesses and even secular historians of the day.
I am going to post links to subject below. If you want to reply on those links it would be fine but if you want this conversation to remain between us you can copy and paste them into this thread with your reply.
Let's cover item #2 which is our books and the inspiration behind those books. Let's discuss
fulfilled prophecy.
What makes Mohammed a prophet?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=564.0
Where did the inspiration of the Quran come from? Not a single person ever heard Gabriel or Allah give Mohammed a "revelation". Where's the
proof of Mohammed's claims that they gave him his "revelations"?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=452.0
Let's start with fulfilled prophecy. Please share with us prophecy of Mohammed that has been fulfilled.
Quote from: psychlopes on August 08, 2009, 11:04:42 AM
The Qur'an stresses twice that it does not make distinction between the revelations by Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the tribes (i.e. the sons of Jacob), and that which Moses and Jesus revealed, and that which other prophets received from their Lord. (Qur'an 2:136 and Qur'an 3:84)
And isn't that the tragedy of it. Even though Muslims believe that Jesus Christ is the only Messiah, and that Jesus was conceived by a virgin, by the will of God, they are compelled to believe He was just another prophet. They are required to Jesus Christ as he is revealed through the Gospel.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/gospel_of_john.htm
bump