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Table of Contents to "Catholic Concerns" and path to the PDF http://petewaldo.com/catholic_concerns.htm

HOW CAN I KNOW?

Jesus described for us two ways, the broad one leading to destruction and the narrow one that leads to life. How can I know the way that leads to heaven and avoid the other?

The Gospel is the true way to life because it is God's message to humanity. People have invented several religions but all of them are false. The Bible warns us that 'the world through its wisdom did not know God' (1 Corinthians 1:21).

God's message is recorded in the Bible. It was written by chosen people who were guided by the Holy Spirit. We can trust the Bible because it is God's book. We can also be confident that it is a sure guide to Heaven. The Holy Scriptures 'are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus' (2 Timothy 3:15).

What about the church's tradition? Jesus warned us against tradition (Mark 7:1-13). He accused the Jews that they were 'making the word of God on no effect through your tradition.' They should have remained faithful to the Bible. Similarly, church tradition has changed the clear teaching of the Bible. For example, the church commends the use of statues even though the second commandment forbids the making of graven images and bowing down before them (Exodus 20:4).

What about religious teachers? We should listen to teachers as long as their teaching is faithful to the Bible. Be like the people of Berea who 'received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so' (Acts 17:11).

What about my personal insight and wisdom? You should eagerly seek God's way, not your own. 'Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding' (Proverbs 3:5).

The Bible is the only sure guide to heaven. The person who learns, believes and obeys its message can say: 'Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path' (Psalm 119:105).

SACRIFICE FOR SIN

We are responsible to obey and love our Creator. However, since the beginning we have rebelled against Him and, because of our sins, we are guilty and in danger of Hell.

There is only one way of escape, as the bible says, 'without the shedding of blood there is no remission (forgiveness)' (Hebrews 9:22). In the Old Testament God ordered his people to offer animal sacrifices on the altar. This was to teach them two basic truths: 1. sin must be punished; 2. the sinner may be freed if somebody else was punished in his place. This, of course, was a picture of what Jesus, 'the Lamb of God', would do on Calvary.

'Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God' (1 Peter 3:18)

Christ, the perfect and sinless one, took upon himself the sins of his people and suffered and died on the cross to pay the penalty demanded by the Law of God. Freed from their sin, his disciples can now come to God without fear. Christ saved his people from their sins by his sacrifice on the cross.

On the day before he suffered, Jesus instituted the 'Lord's Supper' so that his disciples would continue to remember him and his sacrifice until he returns. Sadly, tradition has changed its meaning. The Catholic church teaches that the bread and wine are changed into the real body and blood of Christ. It is true that Jesus said, 'This is my body...This is my blood.' However each time he added, 'Do this in remembrance of me.' The bread and the wine are a memorial of his sacrifice on the cross of Calvary.

A more serious error taught by the Catholic church is that the mass is a sacrifice for sin. Indeed it is claimed that the mass is the same sacrifice of Christ because it 'perpetuates' and 'makes present' the sacrifice of the cross. This teaching contradicts the clear teaching of the Bible:

Christ entered 'into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us, not that he should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another -- He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself...Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many' (Hebrews 9:24-28).

The daily sacrifice of the mass implies remaining sin and guilt. In Biblical Christianity there are no more sacrifices for sin because Christians are assured that all their sins are forgiven forever. The Lord proclaims: 'Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.' Now where there is remission (forgiveness) of these, there is no longer an offering for sin' (Hebrews 10:17,18).

I pray that you will not continue to trust in a man-made sacrifice, but to approach God on the merits of the one sacrifice of Christ on the cross.

ONE MEDIATOR

Since God is holy and we are sinners, it is impossible to approach Him alone. We need a mediator to cleanse us from sin and present us to God. The mediator is Jesus Christ: 'For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all' (1 Timothy 2:5). He only is the mediator because He alone shed his blood to secure the freedom of his people from the slavery of sin.

Sadly, tradition has obscured the clear teaching of the Bible. Unwilling to trust the Word of God, people have invented other 'mediators'.

Mary, the mother of the Lord

Mary is highly favored among women because she was chosen to be the mother of our Lord according to the flesh, and Christians rightly call her 'blessed' because of this unique privilege. However, Mary is not the Savior, nor the Mediator.

The Catholic church teaches that Mary was conceived without sin, that by her suffering she contributed to our salvation, that she ascended into Heaven and was appointed our mediatrix. She is also called our life and the gate of Heaven. None of this is taught in the Bible. On the contrary the Word of God teaches that Jesus was conceived without sin, that he died for our sins, ascended into heaven and that he is the only mediator. He alone is our life and he is the gate to Heaven. We should therefore look to Jesus Christ.

Mary said: 'My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my saviour' (Luke 1:46). Mary desires to magnify the Lord and not to take his glory for herself. Moreover she plainly teaches us to look upon God for salvation and not to herself or anyone else. God is 'my saviour,' she confesses. We should call upon the name of Jesus, and not upon the name of Mary, because the apostle Peter says about the Lord Jesus, 'Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved' (Acts 4:12).

The Catholic priest

There were leaders in the New Testament church, called pastors, elders and overseers. But they are never called priests, and for good reason. The Old Testament priests were replaced by Jesus Christ, who is called the 'High Priest of our confession' (Hebrews 3:1).

The Old Testament priests were sinners, offered only the blood of animals, and entered only in a man-made Temple. Jesus is much better because he is sinless, offered his own blood and entered into Heaven itself. 'Such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people's, for this He did once for all when he offered up Himself' (Hebrews 7:26,27).

What need is there for a Roman Catholic priest to offers sacrifices for sin if you have Jesus Christ? 'He is able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them' (Hebrews 7:25).

Do you want to know the way the Heaven? The Lord Jesus gives us a plain answer: 'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me' (John 14:6). Come to the Father, though Jesus Christ, the only Mediator.

FORGIVENESS

Since sin is the breaking of the God's Law, God alone can forgive sin. After David had committed a serious sin he found peace after he confessed to God. 'I will confess my transgressions to the Lord, and You forgave my sin' (Psalm 32:5).

Human tradition has distorted the teaching of the Bible. The catholic priests claim the power to judge sinners and give or withhold absolution (a judicial sentence of forgiveness). Most Catholics have been taught that Jesus himself instituted the sacrament of penance, when he told the apostles: 'If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained' (John 20:23).

It is clear that Jesus gave them power to forgive. But we must ask this question: what kind of power did Jesus give them? Did he make them judges? Or did he commission them to forgive sins by another method? The answer is clear if we read the Acts of the Apostles and the rest of the New Testament. There is no evidence in the Bible that the apostles heard confessions or gave absolution. Rather they preached the Gospel and urged people to repent and believe in Jesus to obtain forgiveness. The apostle Peter preached, 'To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins' (Acts 10:43); and the apostle Paul preached, 'Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins, and by Him everyone who believes is justified' (Acts 13:38,39).

If you desire God's forgiveness for your sin, believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.

Christians should confess their sins. However they should not confess to a Catholic priest. Confession to a priest is a human invention that was unknown for hundred of years after Christ. Jesus taught us plainly that we should pray to the Father, 'Our Father in heaven...forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors' (Matthew 6:9,12).

There is another critical mistake in Catholic religion about forgiveness. The Church teaches that God's forgiveness is not perfect. After a person is forgiven he should still perform acts of penance to make satisfaction for his sins. Even after death, most Catholics expect to undergo purification in the fire of Purgatory.

The Bible assures the believers that 'your sins are forgiven for His name's sake' and 'the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us form all sin' (1 John 2:12; 1:7). They need not make satisfaction for the sins that Christ took upon himself, and they need not go to purgatory whose sins were cleansed by his blood.

Christians trust in the Lord Jesus Christ for forgiveness. Knowing that they are forgiven, they live gratefully to the glory of the One who showed them such mercy.

THE CHURCH

When Jesus asked his disciples their opinion about himself, the apostle Peter answered: 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' Jesus commended Peter, saying, 'Blessed are you Simon Bar Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it' (Matthew 16:16-18).

What is the 'rock' upon which the Church is built? Some say it is Peter; others think it is Peter's confession, 'Your are the Christ.'

The church is build on Peter, the other apostles and the prophets (as Paul teaches in Ephesians 2:20) because the church is founded on their teaching about Christ. However the Roman Catholic claim that the church is build on Peter because he was made the universal bishop of the church is simply false. Even though he was a prominent apostle, in the New Testament Peter was not considered the head of the whole church. The Vatican teaches that Peter is 'the Church's supreme pastor (shepherd)' (Catechism paragraph 857); but Peter himself would disagree because he calls Jesus Christ 'the Chief Shepherd' (1 Peter 5:4).

The 'rock' could refer to Peter's confession about Christ, the Son of God, as St. Augustine taught. Even the Catholic catechism admits that this meaning is correct. 'Moved by the grace of the Holy Spirit and drawn by the Father, we believe in Jesus and confess: 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' On the rock of this faith confessed by St Peter, Christ build his Church.' (paragraph 424).

We need not be in any doubt about the basic questions about the Church because the Bible gives us clear answers.

    * Who is the head of the Church?
    * Christ is the head of the Church (Ephesians 5:23)
    * What is the foundation of the Church?
    * No other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 3:11)
    * Is there any other Rock besides the Lord?
    * Is there a God besides Me? Indeed there is no other Rock, I know not one (Isaiah 44:8).

The church of Jesus Christ is the whole assembly of his people which he purchased with his own blood from every nation of the world. It is holy because its members are sanctified by the blood of Christ and have the same Holy Spirit. It is apostolic because it follows the teaching of the apostles as recorded in the Bible.

Every local assembly of Christians who believe and obey the teaching of the Bible form part of the one catholic church of Jesus Christ.

BORN AGAIN

Jesus informed Nicodemus, a respected Jewish leader and teacher, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God' (John 3:1-21). The issue is not whether you are religious, attend church, read the Bible or try to live a good life. The important question is, 'Are you born again?' For unless you are born again, you will never see or enter Heaven.

Why should a person be 'born again'? The Bible describes the desperate condition of the natural man. He is not only ill or weak, the natural man is 'dead in trespasses and sins.' His mind is not subject to the Law, and though he may be religious, he does not seek after the true God. He has no living relationship with the Lord and he can't do anything about it.

Therefore it is not a matter of turning a new leaf or resolving to live better. Religious rites (like circumcision or baptism) cannot help either - Nicodemus was circumcised but he still needed to be born anew. Being spiritually dead it's impossible to give life to yourself by anything you do. More than anything else, you need God to give you life!

There is no 'how to' formula to be born again. It is neither a human work nor is it initiated by the human will. Infants do not induce, or cooperate in, their own procreation and birth; no more can those who are 'dead in trespasses and sins' prompt the life-giving operation of God. His children are born 'not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God' (John 1:13).

The new birth is the work of God the Holy Spirit. 'The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone born of the Spirit.' The Holy Spirit uses the Word of God to create new life in the human heart. Once a person is born again, he instinctively cries out to God for now he is a child of the Father. Repentance, faith and a godly life are the signs that the Christian is 'alive and well.'

Whereas the new birth is not produced by man, its effects are clearly seen in man. The apostle John gives several tests as evidence that a person is born again.

   1. 'Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God' (1 John 5:1). Previously he did not think much of Jesus. Now he trusts only in him because he is convinced that he is God's Son, whom the Father sent to save him from sin.
   2. 'Whoever is born of God does not sin-everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him' (1 John 3:9; 2:29). The child of God grows to become like his Father. He hates what God hates and loves the things God loves. He fights against sin and temptation and willingly obeys the commandments of God.
   3. 'Everyone who loves is born of God and knows God' (1 John 4:7). He learns love from his Father; his desire is to serve especially his fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.

Dear friend, when you examine yourself by the Word of God, can you honestly say, 'Yes, I am born again?'

It has been exhausting.
Good luck with your school my friend and may God bless you and lead you to the truth of His Holy Word.

And I do not follow Hebrews 9:22.

Of course not. That's the whole point. You deny the entire subject of the new covenant we are given through Jesus Christ. You think you are on a path to God. So do Hindus and Buddhists. Do you believe they are? At least they aren't based in one violent, sexually promiscuous, reprobate's 6th century stand-alone religion.

Hebrews 10:29 Of HOW MUCH SORER PUNISHMENT, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, WHO HATH TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD, and HATH COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT, wherewith he was sanctified, AN UNHOLY THING, and hath DONE DESPITE UNTO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE?

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT THE SON shall not see life; but THE WRATH OF GOD ABIDETH ON HIM.

Stop giving me false doctrines of the Bible.

I am a Christian. My faith is based on the 1600 year record that God gave us through His Holy Word.
You, of course, believe it to be false because you are a Mohammedan. Your faith is based on the 23 year 6th century, heavily abrogated, record of Mohammed.

Jesus says:

"But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." (Matthew 9:13).

Does it ever make you a little feel stupid to say: "Stop giving me false doctrines of the Bible.", and then to turn around and quote from the bible in the very next sentence?

Let it go. The bible is THE OPPOSITE of the Quran. Christianity the OPPOSITE of Islam. Muslims the OPPOSITE of Christians. One must choose between the God of the Christians and the Jews, or the god of Mohammed's stand-alone 6th century "religion" of hatred, death and destruction.

Jesus did not want sacrifice, so he did not want himself to be sacrificed for you.

Jhn 18:11 Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?

He wanted sinners, like us to go into repentance.

Repentance doesn't start by denying the Son of God. 1Jo 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=56.0

God will forgive my sins and not some stupid blood money.

Blasphemy seems to come as naturally to you as perhaps walking.

Matthew 26:28, I do not follow.

You can't, as long as you are an unrepentant Mohammedan. Here's why:

Surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

Mohammed even denied the historical record of Jesus death on the Cross. Even lots of atheists and secular historians believe Jesus died on the Cross.
THAT IS THE SINGLE MOST DEADLY VERSE IN THE QURAN.
It is the OPPOSITE of the New Testament of God's Word.

It also contradicts Matthew 9:13, where Jesus says that he does not desire sacrifice.

Try a little context. Jesus is talking to the Pharisees whose temple's purpose was for blood sacrifice.
He is explaining that there is a new covenant through Jesus Christ. That He is their promised Messiah.

Today Jesus shed blood is the new covenant substitute, for the blood sacrifice of the old covenant.

Jesus says:

"...Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."

What is the Gospel?

Is it the Gospel of Matthew, Mark, Luke or John?

No.

It is the Gospel of Jesus.

Where is this Gospel?

It is vanished.

I see. So God left no record. Then presumably He anointed a 6th century reprobate to nullify the 1600 year record, that Jews and Christians perceived for 2200 years, that He left.

There was such thing as a Gospel of Jesus, therefore according to Mark 16:15, written during his life.

Then where is it.

If you can find it, I am certain that it will prophesy the advent of Islam and Mohammad, as the seal of Prophets and mercy to mankind.

But it is lost.

You people threw it away.

Your choice: 1John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Don't tell me to follow the Bible.

I follow the Gospel of Jesus, not the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

They are corrupted and man-altered.

Genesis 1:26 is a fabrication, to the scriptures.

It is nothing but a lie.

Indeed. For a Mohammedan the whole Word of God must necessarily be a lie to follow in their stand-alone 6th century religion of Mohammed.

Why should I ever follow, that God made us in his image?

Did God create us to look like himself?

No, because we do not look like God at all.

So, where did this sick lie come from?

It comes from the Word of God. God and Jesus - a coexistent part of God, like His Spirit - made us in THEIR image. Self and spirit:

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

By your foolish interpretation, everyone on earth would be identical, right down to each hair.

And Mohammad is not a false Prophet, mate.

I don't believe Mohammed is just a false prophet either. I believe Mohammed is THE false prophet, as the beast is Islam. http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=12.0

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and THE FALSE PROPHET [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
   
Who do you suppose THE FALSE PROPHET is? The tooth fairy? Or the most successful false prophet in world history that has led his minions to perdition for 1400 years, and another 1.5 billion in the world today. And this with a single individual’s 23 year record that is in such a mess that 71 out of 114 suras are subject to abrogation.

Your Bible says otherwise:

1 John 4:2:

'This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus is the Christ (Messiah) who has come in the flesh is from God...'

1 John 5:1:

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ (Messiah) is born of God..."

That passage is about trying SPIRITS not persons. Can't you read?
We can see the perfect measure of Islam in this verse:

1 John 2:22  Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? HE IS ANTICHRIST, THAT DENIETH the Father and THE SON. 23 WHOSOEVER DENIETH THE SON, THE SAME HATH NOT THE FATHER: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].

Why on earth would you quote from the very same area of scripture that condemns you?! Why would you quote from the Word of God at all? You are a Mohammedan.

Surah Ale-Imran 3:45 says that Jesus is the Messiah and therefore we pass the test as spirits of God.

We Muslims and our Prophet are spirits of God and are born of God according to your Bible.

You have never touched on that and never answer it.

Why?

This is the second time I have answered it. The same area of scripture condemns you as an antichrist. Condemns Islam as antichrist. Condems Mohammed as antichrist. You deny the Son of God. The only begotten of the Father.

Answer all my claims and not just those you can (thou stupidly) answer:

Bats are birds to the your God (Leviticus 11:13, 19).

Science has proven today that bats are mammals and not birds, because they do not have feathers, have fur and do not lay eggs.

The Bible says that the EARTH HAS PILLARS (1 Samuel 2:8, Job 9:6).

The Bible says the EARTH IS FIRMLY ESTABLISHED (Psalm 93:1, 1 Chronicals 16:30).

The Bible says that the EARTH IS FIXED AND THE SUN TRAVELS AROUND IT (Job 9:7).

The Bible says that the EARTH HAS FOUR CORNERS (Revelation 7:1)

I answered your above blather in the following link:
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=128.msg494#msg494
Please DO NOT spam with duplicate posting.

I did not say I control the Holy Spirit.

You wrote: "Yes I have a spirit, but it is within me and I have full control over it."
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=126.msg469#msg469

So what am I supposed to believe, you believe, when you say you have A spirit that you have full control over?

God controls the Holy Spirit.

However I have my own spirit in me.

There are many spirits and one of them is the Holy Spirit.

Did you ever consider having someone cast out those spirits?
Plenty of spirits I can't argue with, but you deny the record that God gave of His Son.

You are filled with that spirit of antichrist:

1 John 2:22  Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? HE IS ANTICHRIST, THAT DENIETH the Father and THE SON. 23 WHOSOEVER DENIETH THE SON, THE SAME HATH NOT THE FATHER: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].

Sorry but you are deluded if you believe you are filled with the Holy Ghost. Islam is the opposite.

1Jo 5:10  He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT GOD HATH MADE HIM A LIAR; because HE BELIEVED NOT THE RECORD that God gave of his Son.

Like pillars are the supporting structures of the earth like atmosphere, oceans and the like.

When you talk about the 5 "pillars" of Islam, are they made of plaster, concrete or stone?

Pillars are not supporting structures such as the atmosphere, oceans etc...

But pillars are supporting structures, like the pillars of Islam. The oceans support the rains, that support the plants that produce oxygen that supports....

Because the Bible says:

Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble. (Job 9:6).

Does the atmosphere tremble?

No it doesn't. and neither do the oceans.

Did the earth shaketh out of her place? No. The earth is firmly established. Could God shake the earth out of her place? Of course.

Therefore it does not refer to oceans and mountains etc...

And why would God use metaphorical language.

So that one had to be regenerate to understand much of it. That's why those coming to Christ generally find Him first, in the clarity of the Gospels. The story of Jesus life, ministry, crucifixion, death and resurrection.

Jhn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Isn't that confusing?

It requires study. Milk before meat.

1Cr 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able.

Start with the Gospel of John or Mark, not Revelation.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/

Yes.

But:

"For God is not the author of confusion..." (1 Corinthians 14:33).

The Bible is very confusing though.

The pillars of Islam are the 5 teachings of Islam. They are called pillars because they support the religion of Islam, just as pillars support the foundations of a building.

That is simple to understand, unlike Job 9:6.[/color]

Indeed it is. Does the earth wander around the universe? No. It's rotation doesn't change, it's orbit is cyclical, summer follows winter with the tilt, etc. These things don't change appreciably, and if they do it is cyclical.

Firmly established does not mean it has a fixed cycle etc...

Firmly established means that it does not move.

It means that it is established in a firm position.

That's what you want it to believe because you want God to lie.
Earth's rotation is established. It's orbit is established. It's seasonal tilt is established. You cannot deny that yet you persist.

In the start of the verse it says that the Earth cannot be moved, and in the end it says it is firmly established.

And even if it spoke of its rotation it would not make a difference, because men can easily change its revolution around the sun.

Today nukes are hard enough that they can just hit the Earth so hard, that it will fly out of its orbit, and either fall into the sun or fly our away from the sun.

That's preposterous. You could detonate all of the nukes on earth, in one location, and it wouldn't budge the earth.
But even if men could, it wouldn't change that the earth was ESTABLISHED in the way that God established it. If it becomes His will to change it He will. And I believe he will.

2 Peter 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

That word translated as "elements" means elemental principles.

In either case the Bible is scientifically incoherent.[/color]

Many even Christians say that the entire book of Revelation is incoherent, because they don't put any effort into understanding. They start with presumptions they have drawn from the rest of scripture. But the book of Revelation is just that. It's better to take it on it's own merit, using the rest of the bible to define the terms, and from where we stand in history look backwards through scripture through the book of revelation. Here's how Isaac Newton described our times:

"This Prophecy is called the Revelation, with respect to the scripture of truth, which Daniel was commanded to shut up and seal, till the time of the end. Daniel sealed it until the time of the end; {Daniel 12:4, 9} and until that time comes, the Lamb is opening the seals:.... All which is as much as to say, that these Prophecies of Daniel and John should not be understood till the time of the end: .... But in the very end, the Prophecy should be so far interpreted as to convince many."
(Part II. Observations Upon the Apocalypse of St. John. Chap 1)

Indeed, from where we stand in history, we find that virtually all of the prophecy of the book of Revelation is fulfilled through the now-healed beast of Islam.

Is that really what it says or are you creating your own verse like Ahmed Deedat used to do, before he was silenced for the last 9 years of his life?

Which commandeth the sun, and it riseth not; and sealeth up the stars. (Job 9:7)

So in other words this verse is saying when God commands the sun not to rise, it does not do so.

What this is implying is that the sun does rise in its normal basis, meaning it revolves around the Earth, and does not rise when God commands it not to.

But you belief is purely grounded in your desire to blaspheme God's Word, purely because it doesn't fit Mohammed's word.
Do you use the term sunrise or not? When you do are you "implying" that the earth does not spin?

That is false because the sun does not rise at all, and therefore the Bible is incoherent.

And yes Sheikh Ahmed Deedat (RA) was silenced by God for 9 years, because God love him and wanted him to learn spiritually and silently rather than teaching.

He wanted the Sheikh to be more spiritual by being silenced.

That would make him wiser and closer to God.

It could have simply been a stroke, but I doubt it:
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=119.0

If you think that the Christian God silenced him, then you must also think that the Christian God is very stupid for silencing him at a time when all his works were published and all his life had been used to defend Islam rather than silencing him in the start.[/color]

Not at all. God demonstrates His power when He will.
The bible tells us that there were many antichrists even as John wrote the book of Revelation in 95 AD.
Deedat was just another antichrist.
It is up to the individual to discern these things.
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

God didn't promise He would make it easy, but it is SO easy through Jesus Christ and the power of the Holy Ghost.

We use the same expression today. Scattered to the 4 corners of the earth. This is a reference to ALL directions. North, South, East and West. This is supported by reference to the 4 winds, in the same verse. Do you really think that the wind only blew from strictly 4 directions back then? No.

More importantly, the book of Revelation, after the third chapter is a prophetic VISION. All visions and dreams in God's Word use figurative language. Generally the interpretation of the terms can be found with careful hermeneutic study. You can readily see that the verse you refer to include four angels, standing on the four corners.

Were this the case the Bible would say six corners.

Because by saying North, South, East and West, it excludes front and back, which alludes a 2D figure of the Earth.

Do you see the lengths you go to?
What part in navigation of a boat for example includes a front and back?
Even your preposterous supposition is wrong.
If you wanted to include two more dimensions it would be top and bottom, depending on the stance of the person.
Your wheels are spinning off.
You never heard the expression 4 corners of the earth?

Therefore it is still incoherent.

And why does figurative language have to be used.

So that only those that ask God for help through the God's Spirit can understand it. I showed you before that the natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God. Here is the reason for parables, for example:

Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them.

You have to throw yourself at the feet of Jesus Christ and repent, and be washed by His blood, before you can understand the things of the Spirit of God.
You have to try to understand, not put your effort into MISunderstanding.
BUT FIRST YOU HAVE TO BE SAVED, through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

God is not the author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33), but figurative language is very confusing.

It's certainly not the stuff of a low IQ, 6th century, bedowin mentality, illiterate.

Therefore, whether Revelation 7:1, is figurative or literal, it is incoherent.[/color]

I believe that the moon in this passage (Matthew 24:29) is the church, because it reflects the light of the SON.

I do not care what you believe.

I want facts and the beliefs of Bible scholars, rather than normal people like yourself.

But bible scholars are in the same predicament that the Pharisees were:
Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

When it comes to end-time prophecy and figurative language they walk in the doctrines of men, not the Word of God. They reject the Word of God for many of those doctrines. But the bible explains itself. There are many areas of broad agreement. For example if you Yahoo even in quotes "babylon, medo-persia, greece" you will find about 20,000 hits that agree that these are the identities of Daniel's lion, bear and leopard beasts. Then when we see them in Revelation 13 we can understand that the seats of those beasts are today, Iraq, Iran and Syria/Lebanon. The seat of the leopard-bear-lion composite end-time beast - Islam.

Even though there is broad agreement regarding Daniel's beasts, most then diverge and believe that John's "beast" of Rev 13 is some individual future boogeyman, with NO SCRIPTURAL support whatsoever.

However Daniel provides a major key to the book of Revelation. Please read the following link and see if it makes sense:
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/daniels_four_beasts.htm

Would it be fair for me to interpret the Qur'an in the way that I wish?

For example, where it says "kill the idolaters wherever you may find them" (Surah at-Tawba 9:5), could I say:[/color]

Kill means to kill their disbelief.

No. I would answer it by showing the context of the verse, by showing what the next verse says. You cannot answer me by saying what you believe and neither can I.

You point out another excellent and frequently occurring opposite of Islam. Jesus said:

Jhn 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Islam points out so well that generally the filthy reproabte men that consider themselves to be in positions of judgment of others, are FAR WORSE than those that they pass judgment against.
Sharia law is the opposite of the new covenant through Jesus Christ.
It is also contrary to norms of human decency.
Sharia law is the filth of satan. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fbXvq_ZIbw

It says "moon" not "Church".

Does a scarlet beast with a harlot on it's back with 7 heads and 10 horns refer to any beast you know of?

Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

And it says stars will fall from heaven. Is that what it means? Did you read the link?
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/matthew_24_olivet_discourse.htm#matthew_24_29

How can a star fall from heaven? Well what might a star be?

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

The word anglos translated as angels means messenger. Can a messenger fall from heaven? What about Baker, Swaggart?
I believe that section is about the apostasy. If you read the link you will see how these conclusions are drawn through scriptural definitions. It is ONE LARGE PICTURE. You could not understand it through bits and pieces.

From the same verse, what do we see might a candlestick stand for?

And in the case of the Qur'an it says "kill", not "kill their disbelief".

Don't answer me by saying what you believe, or I could do the same and answer any attack on Islam, by making false interpretations of my own.

I say "I believe" because while some passages of scripture are not open to interpretation, like Jesus crucifixion, death and resurrection, other passages are WIDELY open to interpretation. That's is how traditions of men have divided the church into a few thousand denominations.

The last thing you would find me saying is "well the pope says", yet many believe him to be the head of the church. It's tragic because Jesus Christ is the head of the church.

If it meant the Church, Jesus would say the Church.

But he didn't.

If he meant it then he is confusing the listeners by alluding to the moon, without telling what he really means and that is confusing.

But God is not the author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33).

Again a major scientific error exists in Matthew 24:29.

Also in Matthew 24:34, Jesus says that all of this (what he said, about the false Prophets coming, people fighting each other and the world ending would come before THIS GENERATION passes.

There is an entire eschatology built around this false presumption. Indeed many falsely believe that Jesus second coming happened then. One would have to believe that to hold what you just put forward. But look at the word translated as "this" to understand what is meant:

This
New Testament Greek Definition:
3778 houtos {hoo'-tos} including nominative masculine plural
houtoi {hoo'-toy}, nominative feminine singular haute {how'-tay}
and nominative feminine plural hautai {how'-tahee}
from the article 3588 and 846;; pron
AV - this 157, these 59, he 31, the same 28, this man 25, she 12,
they 10, misc 34; 356
1) this, these, etc.

You can see that on 28 other occasions houtos is translated as "the same". Now doesn't that make more sense? The same generation that sees all those things will not pass?
I put a lot of time into this study. Maybe I didn't get it all right. Maybe I didn't get much of it correct. But IT ALL FITS, unlike the traditions held by the church, and heretics that believe that Jesus already came His second time.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/matthew_24_olivet_discourse.htm

But it did not happen, and therefore that is a false Prophecy in the Bible.[/color]

You didn't even try to get a sense of the term translated as "generation". Is it strictly genealogical?:

generation - Check Strong's here
New Testament Greek Definition:
1074 genea {ghen-eh-ah'}
from (a presumed derivative of) 1085; TDNT - 1:662,114; n f
AV - generation 37, time 2, age 2, nation 1; 42
1) fathered, birth, nativity
2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family
2a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive
members of a genealogy
2b) metaph. a group of men very like each other in endowments,
pursuits, character
2b1) esp. in a bad sense, a perverse nation
3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time
4) an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive
generation), a space of 30 - 33 years

We can see that it could mean a group of men with the same attributes. Like the "generation of vipers" which describes the Pharisees that had the same attributes of allowing their tradition to trump God's Word. NOT a generation simply because of the happenstance of the dating of their birth.

Or a "generation" of Christian men.

2Sa 22:11 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and he was seen upon the wings of the wind.

You can add to your list that the bible says that the wind has wings too.

Yes I can.

But I am not stupid.

If it is symbolic, tell me what 2 Samuel 22:11, symbolises.

I am not studied in that verse and my time has been short lately. I may get to it though.

Like I said, you can add to your list that the bible says that clouds have wings, from the very same verse. Do you think that God's Word literally means that clouds have wings?

And if it is symbolic then it is confusing, but God is not the author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33).

So it is either a contradiction or a general error.

No it is an area of scripture that requires study. Including apologetic study to put it in historical context.

Either way it is not the word of God.

Most of your defense was stupid, except Leviticus 11:13, and therefore the Bible is still not the word of God, because of the errors.[/color]

The defense was perfectly acceptable. You choose not to accept it because you wish God's Word was in error.
Do clouds have wings?

I am really enjoying our conversation, but I am desperate for you my friend.

Quote from: Pete on October 21, 2008, 01:08:12 AM

And Mohammed's flat earth, with mountains used as balances to keep it from tipping.

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=765CB4B6FB516894

If that's all you have than that is very lowly of you.

Firstly I can (and will) easily disprove lies about Prophet Mohammad saying the earth is flat.

Secondly you did not answer one of my claims against the Bible.

It wasn't my post. I thought she might follow up. I just piled on with the YouTubes FROM THE HADITH. I shouldn't have. I don't want you to get distracted by unimportant fringe discussions.

The post immediately above is a matter of life or death.

Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT THE SON shall not see life; but THE WRATH OF GOD ABIDETH ON HIM.

Thirdly you posted a link instead of answering me yourself.

Here are my claims against the Bible (additions included):

Bats are birds to the your God (Leviticus 11:13, 19).

Science has proven today that bats are mammals and not birds, because they do not have feathers, have fur and do not lay eggs.

Sometimes God's Word takes a little effort in study of translation:

Leviticus 11:13 And these [are they which] ye shall have in abomination among the fowls; they shall not be eaten, they [are] an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray,

  the fowls
Old Testament Hebrew Definition:
05775 `owph {ofe}
from 05774; TWOT - 1582a; n m
AV - fowl 59, bird 9, flying 2, flieth 1; 71
1) flying creatures, fowl, insects, birds
1a) fowl, birds
1b) winged insects

Here we can see that the Hebrew term 'owph translated as "fowls" is so broad that it can even refer to winged insects. In two other places this word is translated as "flying". Consider it more generally like: "...ye shall have in abomination among the flying; they shall not be eaten..."

But you would likely prefer to pretend you can make God a liar, just like you prefer to make Jesus Christ a liar regarding His shed blood that would save you. All because of a 6th century false prophet and those like Deedat that promote that evil.

The Bible says that the EARTH HAS PILLARS (1 Samuel 2:8, Job 9:6).

The bible also says the earth has foundations. Does that mean concrete block or poured? Reinforced with steel? Or do we understand it metaphorically. Like the earth was founded. Like pillars are the supporting structures of the earth like atmosphere, oceans and the like.

When you talk about the 5 "pillars" of Islam, are they made of plaster, concrete or stone?

The Bible says the EARTH IS FIRMLY ESTABLISHED (Psalm 93:1, 1 Chronicals 16:30).

Indeed it is. Does the earth wander around the universe? No. It's rotation doesn't change, it's orbit is cyclical, summer follows winter with the tilt, etc. These things don't change appreciably, and if they do it is cyclical.

The Bible says that the EARTH IS FIXED AND THE SUN TRAVELS AROUND IT (Job 9:7).

Is that really what it says or are you creating your own verse like Ahmed Deedat used to do, before he was silenced for the last 9 years of his life?

Job 9:5  5  Which removeth the mountains, and they know not: which overturneth them in his anger.    6  Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble.    7  Which commandeth the sun, and it riseth not; and sealeth up the stars.    8  Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.

A lot of the Hebrew portion of God's Word is written poetically. You can see the passage is full of figurative language and metaphors.
When you look out in the morning do you say "What a beautiful earth spin we have this morning!". Unless you are some kind of nutjob you say "What a beautiful sun rise we have this morning".
What you are doing is, very transparently, everything in your power, to make God a liar. Just like Mohammed did.

The Bible says that the EARTH HAS FOUR CORNERS (Revelation 7:1)

We use the same expression today. Scattered to the 4 corners of the earth. This is a reference to ALL directions. North, South, East and West. This is supported by reference to the 4 winds, in the same verse. Do you really think that the wind only blew from strictly 4 directions back then? No.

More importantly, the book of Revelation, after the third chapter is a prophetic VISION. All visions and dreams in God's Word use figurative language. Generally the interpretation of the terms can be found with careful hermeneutic study. You can readily see that the verse you refer to include four angels, standing on the four corners.

Rev 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

For example does this seem to describe a literal beast?

Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

The Bible says that GOD RODE ON A CHERUB (a winged creature) (2 Samuel 22:11)

Is that all it says?

2Sa 22:11 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and he was seen upon the wings of the wind.

You can add to your list that the bible says that the wind has wings too.
Do you see what you are doing yet? Read the whole passage: http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=2Sa&c=22&v=1&t=KJV#top

Jesus says in the Bible that the moon will stop giving its light (Matthew 24:29)

Firstly the moon does not have its own light and reflects light from the sun and secondly the moon never gave light so how could it stop giving light.

I devoted a considerable amount of time to this very interesting passage, being driven by Christian chat rooms.
I believe that the moon in this passage is the church, because it reflects the light of the SON.

Malachi 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

Matthew 24:29 is perfectly placed within it's passage to describe the latter days apostasy that we also read about the 2 Thess.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;..."
Falling away is translated from the Greek word for apostasy.
Also consistent with the timing of the 6th seal that comes immediately before the end:
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/matthew_24_olivet_discourse.htm#matthew_24_29

The Olivet Discourse is a mini-picture that Jesus paints of the whole Christian era.

Now about the Qur'an.

All verses posted by that deceiver said that God spread out the Earth/stretched out the Earth.

The Arabic word for Earth used is al-Arda, which also refers to land masses and not the Earth as a whole.

Therefore spreading and stretching refers to continental drift and not to flat-World theories.

About mountains stopping the Earth from shaking: What the Qur'an is saying is that mountains stop Earthquakes which is a scientific theory (

What he (the youtube dude) quoted (and falsely interpreted) in the Noble Qur'an are simply scientific facts.

You are running and hiding from the truth of God's Word by trying to get lost in the details. Please ignore this post. I almost didn't write it because I didn't want you to miss the prior post. IT IS A MATTER OF LIFE OR DEATH - ETERNALLY.

Your understanding will only come after you ask Jesus for help and TRY TO UNDERSTAND rather than trying to make God out to be a liar. It is Mohammed that is the liar. Here is why you can't understand the things of the Spirit of God:

1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

And Mohammed's flat earth, with mountains used as balances to keep it from tipping.

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=765CB4B6FB516894

All sin shall be forgiven except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

According to this we will be forgiven because we honour the Holy Spirit.

Yes I have a spirit, but it is within me and I have full control over it.

For a Christian or a Jew this could be considered blasphemy. What you are saying is that you control God's Spirit, rather than being submitted to it. For Christians and Jews it is God's Spirit that is in us. We pray that it control us, not the other way around. We are submitted to God, don't pretend to control Him:

Exd 31:3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,

What you are doing is everything in your power to deny that God has a Spirit, because you know that if you did, you would be a polytheist by the same measure you apply to Christians. Do you see what a tangled web you are weaving by making it up as you go along? By denying that God has a Spirit? Mohammed did the same thing. By the time he got done making it up as he went along he had a mess that requires abrogation of 71 out of 114 suras:

Quran 2:106 None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?

Not abrogated.....just........substituted.......for something better! Preposterous.

http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=116.0

God made me like that. I am the spirit, but the flesh is not me.

For a Christian, to deny that we have a body, would be to deny the temple that God dwells in, through the holy Ghost:

1Cr 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

God created a spirit, which obeys everything He asks of it.

Sorry my friend but you don't. Admitting to sin, and then repenting, is the first step in becoming a regenerate individual.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

There is no such thing as blood remission though.

You deny Jesus' blood that would buy you:

Hbr 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and WITHOUT SHEDDING OF BLOOD IS NO REMISSION.

Jesus never says that the only way to enter Heaven is to believe in the Atonement.

That is a lie.

You engage in blasphemy pretty casually:

Mat 26:28 For this is MY BLOOD of the new testament, which is SHED FOR MANY for the remission of sins.

He confirms from a Pharisee, that to inherit eternal life you must love the Lord and honour him with all mind and heart and love your neighbour as yourself (Luke 10:25-28).

Therefore according to his confirmation we are going to inherit eternal life.

There is no shortage of Christians also that believe if one tries to be good person, or if one simply believes in God, one is saved. Perhaps that's so if a person remained ignorant to the Gospels and what God is and expects of us. But you and I both know that Satan believes in God too.
You can't plead ignorance my friend.

You can't love and honor God as long as you deny the blood of His Son our Savior.

Jhn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

What does that mean? How does Jesus take away the sin of the world?

As long as you deny the record that God gave us:

1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT GOD HATH MADE HIM A LIAR; because HE BELIEVED NOT THE RECORD that God gave of his Son.

Deny the blood that bought you:

Hebrews 10:29 Of HOW MUCH SORER PUNISHMENT, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, WHO HATH TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD, and HATH COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT, wherewith he was sanctified, AN UNHOLY THING, and hath DONE DESPITE UNTO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE?

you will remain condemned.

Insert Quote
Do you find it a little hypocritical that earlier you wrote: "If you disagree show me how I am misinterpreting using the Bible ONLY." And now you state: "The only question a Christian should be asking is, is it biblical."

??

And I presented Rev 12:9 and 10 in the post immediately above your reply, which demonstrated the preposterous nature of your understanding of that section of scripture, and the definition of accuser, yet you ignored the Bible completely in your reply.

Sorry if I missed it.  Could you reply with it again?

Third post up: http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=144.msg466#msg466

I even went on to show you the perfect accusation from a reprobate illiterate false prophet's stand-alone 7th century religion, and his deceived followers unto today, yet for some reason it wasn't even worth a mention. How come? Did you stop to wonder why? Forever is a very long time my friend.

??  Again, I don't know what you mean.  Please elaborate some more.

Second half of third post up: http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=144.msg466#msg466

I really don't know much about Jehovah's Witness but one time it happened that a JW argued that in John 1:1 and John 1:14, God is different from the 'Word' and the Word is 'god' not 'God'.

He emphasized the lowercase letter indicating that Jesus is not God but a god, thus he's not God in the flesh. He was only with God.

Again, a silly basis to argue scripture. Also very importantly the Jehova's bible is based on the 19th century corrupt minority Greek text written by two spiritualists/satanists that are actually credited as being fathers of the New Age movement. I know that sounds pretty fantastic but check this link out. I provided previously imputed Yahoo searches so all you have to do is click on them:
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/new_age_bible_versions.htm
That corrupt Greek is also the source of most modern bible versions including Rupert Murdoch's NIV.

(Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT) John 1:1 |  en  <1722> {IN [THE]}  arch  <746> {BEGINNING}  hn  <2258> (5713) {WAS}  o  <3588> {THE}  logoV  <3056> {WORD,}  kai  <2532> {AND}  o  <3588> {THE}  logoV  <3056> {WORD}  hn  <2258> (5713) {WAS}  proV  <4314>  ton  <3588> {WITH}  qeon  <2316> {GOD,}  kai  <2532> {AND}  qeoV  <2316> {GOD}  hn  <2258> (5713) {WAS}  o  <3588> {THE}  logoV  <3056> {WORD.}

(Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT) John 1:14  kai  <2532> {AND}  o  <3588> {THE}  logoV  <3056> {WORD}  sarx  <4561> {FLESH}  egeneto  <1096> (5633) {BECAME,}  kai  <2532> {AND}  eskhnwsen  <4637> (5656) {TABERNACLED}  en  <1722> {AMONG}  hmin  <2254> {US,}  kai  <2532> {(AND}  eqeasameqa  <2300> (5662)  thn  <3588> {WE DISCERNED}  doxan  <1391>  autou  <846> {HIS GLORY,}  doxan  <1391> {A GLORY}  wV  <5613> {AS}  monogenouV  <3439> {OF AN ONLY BEGOTTEN}  para  <3844> {WITH}  patroV  <3962> {A FATHER,}  plhrhV  <4134> {FULL}  caritoV  <5485> {OF GRACE}  kai  <2532> {AND}  alhqeiaV  <225> {TRUTH.}


A lot of at least Muslim confusion comes from not understanding that Jesus was fully man while He was on earth in the flesh.

By the way, pete and peter are the same guy in here. One of my id's as administrator. But when I log in as Pete I don't risk being able to remove or edit someone else's posts by mistake as it is a standard log-in.


In the Koina Greek there were no upper and lower case letters. They were completely determined by the translators. That's why the interlinear is in all caps.

Best way to learn about Jehova's Witness is Yahoo their name along with the word "cult". This will provide the shortest distance to finding out specific differences from what we believe in an efficient manner. In other words the LAST things that you would likely learn from a JW.

The 19th century went particularly hard on the church:

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/traditional_framework.htm#cults

Mary Baker Eddy - Christian Science
Joseph Smith - LDS Mormon
Charles Taze Russell - Jehovah's Witness
William Miller - Millerites associated into SDA
Ellen White - SDA Seventh Day Adventists
John Nelson Darby - dispensationalism futurism (Dr. Harry Ironside on futurism)
Madame Blavatsky - Theosophical Society - satanist acquaintence of Westcott and Hort
Westcott and Hort - wrote corrupt 19th century minority Greek text that is the basis of the majority of modern bible versions.
United and Oneness Pentecostal Church - several individuals 19th and 20th century

Certainly not limited to the 19th century.

Constantine - Roman Catholicism - 3rd-4th century
Ribera - futurist doctrine creator and seed for Darby's doctrine 16th century
Alcazar - preterist doctrine 17th century
Manuel de Lacunza - middle man between Ribera and Darby 18th century

We will not go to hell for rejecting the false atonement.

What you mean is you wish God is whatever you and Mohammed could imagine Him to be.

I have to rely on God's Word:

Mat 26:28 For this is MY BLOOD of the new testament, which is SHED FOR MANY for the remission of sins.

Hbr 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and WITHOUT SHEDDING OF BLOOD IS NO REMISSION.


Old Testament or New, remission of sin is through blood. NO BLOOD NO REMISSION.
You will die wallowing in your sins.
Once you arrive in hell there is NO COMMUTING to heaven:

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/#heaven