Islam, Muslim / Christian Forum - Welcome All

Thank you Peter. I have to admit that even though I have read some history of Mohammad I havn't extended my research as far as I should have. I have looked more at some of those issues you referred to and find that I am appalled. For future interchange I will do more homework. But please just let me say that even though Mohammad was who he was, that doesn't mean that we should in any way consider the majority of Islamic peoples to be of the same mind. I didn't say that to imply that you were implying that, because I believe you feel the same as I in regards to the 1.5 billion beautiful people that have been deceitfully trapped because of Mohammad's false teachings. More later.

Thank you. I think the revised version is better but I don't claim to have it all stated in the most perfect way. I only hope to open a dialog that can lead to better understanding for all. Is there any way we can use the revised version in place of my opening post and erase this one rather than be redundant?

Why War in Iraq & Afghanistan? The Real Story Totally Ignored!

As long as all national leaders, the news media, war pundits, and all others with a voice, continue their focus on terrorism, national defense, power conspiracies, war strategies, etc., etc., the story of what's really going on in the world is lost in a dark global cloud of murderous deceit! If we are to ever find the true answer to the ravages of war and terrorism being perpetrated by the Islamic extremists in an enraged conflict with who they consider to be Judeo/Christian infidels, we must be willing to address the root cause which has been totally ignored because of the deceitful lie of political correctness.

The answer can only be found in an examination of the events on the timeline of history from its very beginning that have led to the present day Islamic and Judeo/Christian societal variance. The world has not been willing to look at this because of the politically correct attitude that to do so would inflame enraged feelings of bigotry and prejudice. When history is examined with an understanding of the root cause with respect for the peoples and ultimately the nations involved, it can be seen that there is no justification for bigotry or prejudice in any manner. The only question is, do we want to know the answer and are we willing to face it even if it means we have to make individual or societal admissions of contributing responsibility? Unless we're willing, all the war, the terrorism, and all the anguish the world is suffering, will continue and only grow worse!

The prime issue is a matter the world as a whole has chosen to disavow. This one matter is all that has ever gone on in the entire history of man. It's the story of what creation, time, life, and eternity are all about. For some enigmatic reason mankind has chosen to completely ignore the significance of this matter in regards to our personal and inter-societal relationships and our eternal destiny. Again, unless we address this issue and change our self-determined societal choices in view of its all encompassing significance, our world will only continue on a dreadful self-destructive path.

The only thing standing in our way of perceiving the full truth is our view of the biblical record. But here it is, and whether we accept it or not, it's the only source we have to understand what's going on with any chance we may have to end the Islamic vs. Judeo/Christian atrocities which will only escalate if we continue to disavow it. As we examine history, all wars of any consequence including the present   hostilities in Iraq and Afghanistan, have been the result of confrontational differences in the acceptance or rejection by various governments of the ethical and just directives of God's Word. Over the course of history that reference has not been available in many societies, in which case oppositional standards were established as determined by those in control to defend their self chosen form of government.

With this in mind, let us go on. The whole story started in the very beginning with Adam and Eve in the garden, but for this examination of the circumstances and events that formed the present day clash between Islam and Judeo/Christianity it all started in the family of Abram and Sarai of the lineage of Noah's son Shem, about 350 years after the great flood, and about 700 years before the writing of the Torah which was about 4100 years ago. When Abram was 75 years old God made a promise to them that out of their family lineage all the families of the earth would be blessed.

After many life forming events over the next 9 or 10 years of Abram's life, Sarai had still not born him an heir, and she chose to take Hagar her Egyptian handmaid and give her to Abram to be his wife. After Hagar conceived, great resentment grew between her and Sarai and Sarai ran her away. In Hagar's plight the angel of the Lord appeared unto her and promised to multiply her seed exceedingly that it would not be numbered for multitude. Out of that union when Abram was 86 years old, Ishmael, the father of all the Arabic nations was born, an impressive and mighty people.

Later, when Abram was 99 years old, the Lord appeared unto Abram one more time to reaffirm His covenant with him and to multiply his seed exceedingly. In that meeting, the Lord changed Abram's name to Abraham as a father of many nations. At that same time the Lord changed Sarai's name to Sarah and blessed her to give Abraham a son, that she should be a mother of nations. The name of the promised son would be Isaac, and the Lord would establish His covenant with Isaac as an everlasting covenant. It would be through that lineage that the Lord's promise would be fulfilled.

Just as to why the Lord established the lineage of Isaac to fulfill His promise to bless all the families of the earth through the seed of Abraham is not made perfectly clear. Many words of consideration and respect should be extended to the great peoples of the Arabic nations but suffice it to say that as written in the Torah, it is passionately clear that it had nothing to do with any condemnation or judgment of Ishmael's heritage. Ishmael was accepted in Abraham's family with the same manner of family blessing as was Isaac. It's really a very sensitive and compassionate story.

So why has the clash occurred? It was through the lineage of Isaac, 2056 years later, that Joseph with his betrothed Mary, the Virgin Mother of Jesus, would appear. At that time the Arabic nations believed the prophetic word of God's promise for a redeemer as recorded in the Torah just as expectantly as did the Jewish peoples. With the message of Jesus birth of the Virgin Mary, His powerful life ministry, His Crucifixion, burial and resurrection, as fervently proclaimed by the early church founders, the Roman, Arabic and Egyptian nations were all believing on the Lord Jesus Christ as the promised Messiah just as readily as were the Jewish peoples, maybe even more.

Then the unimaginable occurred! In a contentious heated debate, early church leaders were meeting to iron out differences as to how they perceived the relationship of God the Father, Jesus the Son of God, and the Holy Spirit, should be defined. It all revolved around the interpretation of differing scriptural references concerning that relationship. One prime reference was the written story of Jesus baptism by John in the river Jordan. There had been the voice of God from heaven saying "this is my Beloved Son in whom I am well pleased," and the Spirit descending as a dove. In the minds of some, to be called a Son would indicate that He was a created Son of God and not a begotten equal. If Jesus was truly one with God He would have been eternal and not addressed as a created son.

The dispute had been inflamed on the issue of how to define the Godhead, and the contending parties were St. Alexander and Presbyter Arius of the Church of Alexandria, Egypt. Arius contended that God the Father and God the Son were different, and that the Son, though he may be the most perfect of all creations, was only a creation of God the Father; in opposition to St. Alexander who believed that the Son was of the same substance and eternally co-equal with the Father. In final compromised resolution they coined the phrase "Three Persons of the Trinity" to define the Godhead. Since according to the Torah the promised redeemer had to be divine and there was only one God, in the minds of the Arian's by that definition Jesus could not be divine as was required to fulfill the Messianic prophecies if He was a separate person from God. Arius resisted and as the result of that edict, he was excommunicated.

This controversy is still raging! In many ways it's deceptively confusing and I may not be portraying the event with total clarity, but my only aim is to reveal that what is still going on in the world today is a result of that continuing rage. Through a continuing onslaught of satanic deception concerning the Divinity of the Christ, many have been blinded to the majestic beauty of God's eternal sacred design to reconcile mankind's sacred relationship with Him through the Passion of the Christ and grant us His free gift of eternal life. The most devastating result has been that millions of souls have perished, all through the Crusades of the Middle Age and now in Iraq and Afghanistan with contending spiritual ideologies inflamed by that controversy.

The raging hostilities in the years and generations following that resentful clash gave rise to Arianism in opposition to the Nicene Creed. The theology of Arianism became fervently embraced by following generations of many families that had been in support of Arius, and those convictions became deeply ingrained in the spiritual ideology of Mohammad's family heritage. As a result, in Mohammad's quest for spiritual enlightenment he was inspired to write the Koran in alignment with the Arian view, which is the sacred text of Islam. Going on from there, with growing levels of belligerent animosity between those of the Nicene and Arian Creeds, Mohammad chose to defend his position aggressively

Please read this carefully. In all I have said so far, I am in no way placing bigoted or prejudicial blame. When all the events and circumstances that have taken place over the course of history are examined with consideration and respect for all concerned, it can be clearly seen that the choices made were ethically honorable in light of the prevailing philosophical and spiritual ideologies of those involved. Constantine I, St. Alexander, Arius, and many others later involved including Mohammad, were only trying to do what they thought was right from their point of view. Through a continuing onslaught of satanic deception since, an enraged conflict of contending Islamic vs. Christian fervently opinionated spiritual agendas has been inflamed, which has taken the lives of millions of precious souls.

As it now stands the clash has become a belligerent "we're right, you're wrong" confrontation, in which even though we don't all use the same vernacular, both sides are accusing one another of being either a heretic or an infidel, which are in essence the same. So let us place all the blame where it belongs. It's not just a matter of who's right or who's wrong; it's only about the fact that through the onslaught of cunning satanic deception, the truth has not been made clear and what's really at stake has been lost, which is either the salvation or loss of millions of precious souls. Satan is standing on the brink of hell laughing, because through the success of his murderous deceit he sees millions losing their lives and all hope in the ravages of war and terrorism.

The one true God of Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael has only one desire. God wants all His created man to be blessed with His free gift of eternal life to live and reign with Him forever, and He has paid the ultimate price to make it so by sending His only begotten Son to be our redeemer. Oh, that man would only believe!

Thank you again Peter - and again, I am not contending against you. It's all a matter of the difficulty we all have in retro-responsive communication. In fact, this is the reason we've had such difficulty all through history, which has allowed Satan to so easily deceive us. To some, my words may not appear as clear, but they are meant to be unambiguous and clear.

To be more clear, let me start with the timeline. I said that God first met with Abram when he was 75, which was about 350 years after the great flood and about 700 years before the writing of the Torah. I did not include this, but if you know the historic timeline accurately, that means very close to 4100 years ago.

I did not include this, but God first met with His people at Mt. Sinai about 1435 BC, so yes that was about 3500 years ago. I only said the Torah was composed about 700 years after God first met with Abram which would have been about 3400 years ago. There are actually many questions as to when the first writings of the Torah were composed, that's why I said "about."

And please, again, I also specifically said that the Nicene council was convened in 325 and Mohammad composed the Koran in the years between 610 and 632, which was as you say it, hundreds of years later in the 7th century, and so yes, that would have been when the "variance" between the two religions began. Please read it carefully.

I also said very clearly that Mohammad's inspiration to write the Koran was the result of his belief in the Arius position that Jesus could not have been divine. That position was the result of many interwoven satanic evil deceptive lies.

I have said nothing in contention with you, so please my friend, for you to say "You simply aren't making any sense my friend. And rather than a direct answer you seem to prefer a cloud of equally jumbled words instead" can only indicate that you haven't read all I said with clarity.

In response to your opening statement: "Why? What if God had created a mortal man through the virgin Mary, and had given that man as a sacrifice, through which all who had faith in his shed blood would be saved." And then you go on to say: "Now what I am not going to do is follow you further down the road that you seem headed down that may result in outright blasphemy.

First of all, God did create Jesus as a mortal man through the Virgin (capitalized) Mary, and gave Him as a sacrifice though which all that had faith in his shed blood would be saved. That is absolutely true. I did not indicate otherwise. I only noted that Jesus was also divine. God could not have created a merely mortal man through a virgin birth because to be merely mortal and not be divine would require the seed of man and not to be conceived of the Holy Ghost. If you are implying that God could have created a mortal man that wasn't also divine, and by his sacrifice all who had faith in his shed blood would be saved, that would be blasphemy!

You see, Jesus had to be divine or His shed blood would have meant nothing, because only by being divine could His blood have been sinless. That is why Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary, conceived of the Holy Ghost and not of the seed of man, that His blood would be sinless and He would be Divine, born as the only begotten; as God in the flesh. This is also why He is the way, the truth, and the life, and the only way to come unto the Father, because there can be only One having infinitely sinless blood that could be shed as immutable recompense for man's sin penalty, once and for all. I guess my question for you Peter is, do you believe in the Virgin birth?

Please let me know if you want to go on. I will be glad to clearly define my goal. Thank you.

Thank you Peter and others who have responded -

I agree that Islam is the exact opposite of Christianity because of the Divinity of Christ issue, but the reason they don't believe in Christ's divinity is because Arius could not accept the "three person" edict of the Nicene Creed. As I said, in his mind if Jesus is a "distinct  person" then the "one God" edict of the Torah is violated. Yes, we in Christendom accept the St. Alexander position that as "the same substance as the Father" and "begotten," Christ is co-equal with the Father and therefore Divine. By that you can plainly see that I in no way am suggesting there is any controversy in the body of Christ regarding the divinity of Jesus Christ. Again, through satanic deception they were robbed of a clear understanding of the true nature of Christ's divinity and in their minds that meant the promised redeemer has not yet appeared.

Second, I didn't say when Mohammedanism was invented. I just depicted a timeline from the Nicene Council through the family lineage to Mohammed who composed the Koran, the founding text for Islam. I did not say when that was because anyone can read history and learn that Mohammed wasn't even born until 570 in the Arabian city of Mecca.

Third, I did not say that "Muslims" were from the seed of Ishmael. I merely stated that the historic Arabic peoples were from the seed of Ishmael. That is a historic fact. So if an Arabic kin takes up the Islam faith, then that Muslim is of the seed of Ishmael because they are Arabic. In light of that as fact, as to whether Mohammad himself was Arabic is really of no consequence. According to Muslim tradition however, Muhammad was a Hanif and one of the descendants of Ishmael, son of Abraham. By the time of his death, most of the Arabian Peninsula had converted to Islam; and he united the tribes of Arabia into a single Muslim religious polity.

Subnote:  you say: "the seed of Ishmael too (to whom NO covenant was given)." Please read Genesis 17:18-27. I did not say God established His covenant with Ishmael. In fact I specifically said the Lord established His covenant with Isaac. I only wanted to show that originally there was no animosity between Ishmael and Isaac in Abraham's family. As you can see, Ishmael was circumcised along with Abraham even before Isaac was born "in the next year."

And fourth, yes the Koran calls for a conflict on the basis that the "infidel" is cursed and must be smitten because "they are deluded away from the Truth!" Surah 9:29. To the true Muslim we are spreading false doctrine because of what they see as our false teaching on the divinity of Christ. Yes, we rightly believe on the divinity of the Christ but this is just another of the ways Satan has murderously deceived to create a hostile misunderstanding. And again, many have been deceived on this issue in various manners which has created many contending "isms."

Next I did not equate Iraq and Afghanistan as being a "spiritual ideologies" on the part of Christians. Please read it again. What I said was: millions of souls have perished, all through the Crusades of the Middle Age and now in Iraq and Afghanistan with "contending spiritual ideologies rooted in that controversy," the controversy over the divinity of the Christ between the Islamic and Christian ideologues. And yes, the prime perpetrators today are un-Christian. Please, I am not contending with you. Thank you