Author Topic: Why Islamic Christian Conflict  (Read 10802 times)

James VI

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Why Islamic Christian Conflict
« on: April 07, 2010, 09:59:49 PM »
(Pete note - Please, instead, read the revised version of this original post on the next page, at this link http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1247.msg4843#msg4843 )

Why War in Iraq & Afghanistan?
The Real Story Totally Ignored!

As long as all national leaders, the news media, war pundits, and all others with a voice, continue their focus on terrorism, national defense, power conspiracies, war strategies, etc., etc., the story of what's really going on in the world is lost in a dark global cloud of murderous deceit! If we are to ever find the true answer to the ravages of war and terrorism being perpetrated by the Islamic extremists in an enraged conflict with who they consider to be Judeo/Christian infidels, we must be willing to address the root cause which has been totally ignored because of the deceitful lie of political correctness.

The answer can only be found in an examination of the historic timeline of Islamic and Judeo/Christian societal variance from its very beginning. The world has not been willing to look at this because of the politically correct attitude that to do so would inflame enraged feelings of bigotry and prejudice. When history is examined with an understanding of the root cause with respect for the peoples and ultimately the nations involved, it can be seen that there is no justification for bigotry or prejudice in any manner. The only question is, do we want to know the answer and are we willing to face it even if it means we have to make individual or societal admissions of contributing responsibility? Unless we're willing, all the war, the terrorism, and all the anguish the world is suffering, will continue and only grow worse!

The prime issue is a matter the world as a whole has chosen to disavow. This one matter is all that has ever gone on in the entire history of man. It's the story of what creation, time, life, and eternity are all about. For some enigmatic reason mankind has chosen to completely ignore the significance of this matter in regards to our personal and inter-societal relationships and our eternal destiny. Again, unless we address this issue and change our self-determined societal choices in view of its all encompassing significance, our world will only continue on a dreadful self-destructive path.

The only thing standing in our way of perceiving the full truth is our view of the biblical record. But here it is, and whether we accept it or not, it's the only source we have to understand what's going on with any chance we may have to end the Islamic vs. Judeo/Christian atrocities which will only escalate if we continue to disavow it. As we examine history, all wars of any consequence including the present   hostilities in Iraq and Afghanistan, have been the result of confrontational differences in the acceptance or rejection by various governments of the ethical and just directives of God's Word. Over the course of history that reference has not been available in many societies, in which case oppositional standards were established as determined by those in control to defend their self chosen form of government.

With this in mind, let us go on. The whole story started in the very beginning with Adam and Eve in the garden, but for this examination of the circumstances and events that formed the present day clash between Islamism and Judaism it all started in the family of Abram and Sarai of the lineage of Noah's son Shem, about 350 years after the great flood, and about 700 years before the writing of the Torah. When Abram was 75 years old God made a promise to them that out of their family lineage all the families of the earth would be blessed.

After many life forming events over the next 9 or 10 years of Abram's life, Sarai had still not born him an heir, and she chose to take Hagar her Egyptian handmaid and give her to Abram to be his wife. After she conceived, great resentment grew between her and Sarai and in her time of plight the angel of the Lord appeared unto Hagar and promised to multiply her seed exceedingly that it would not be numbered for multitude. Out of that union when Abram was 86 years old, Ishmael, the father of all the Arabic nations was born, an impressive and mighty people.

Later, when Abram was 99 years old, the Lord appeared unto Abram one more time to reaffirm His covenant with him and to multiply his seed exceedingly. In that meeting, the Lord changed Abram's name to Abraham as a father of many nations. At that same time the Lord changed Sarai's name to Sarah and blessed her to give Abraham a son, that she should be a mother of nations. The name of the promised son would be Isaac, and the Lord would establish His covenant with Isaac as an everlasting covenant. It would be through that lineage that the Lord's promise would be fulfilled.

Just as to why the Lord established the lineage of Isaac to fulfill His promise to bless all the families of the earth through the seed of Abraham is not made perfectly clear. Many words of consideration and respect should be extended to the great peoples of the Arabic nations but suffice it to say that as written in the Torah, it is passionately clear that it had nothing to do with any condemnation or judgment of Ishmael's heritage. Ishmael was accepted in Abraham's family with the same manner of blessing as was Isaac. It's really a very sensitive and compassionate story.

So why has the clash occurred? It was through the lineage of Isaac, 2056 years later, that Joseph with his betrothed Mary, the Virgin Mother of Jesus, would appear. At that time the Arabic nations believed the prophetic word of God's promise for a redeemer as recorded in the Torah just as expectantly as did the Jewish peoples. With the message of Jesus birth of the Virgin Mary, His powerful life ministry, His Crucifixion, burial and resurrection, as fervently proclaimed by the early church founders, the Roman, Arabic and Egyptian nations were all believing on the Lord Jesus Christ as the promised Messiah just as readily as were the Jewish peoples, maybe even more.

Then the unimaginable occurred! In a contentious heated debate, early church leaders were meeting to iron out differences as to how they perceived the relationship of God the Father, Jesus the Son of God, and the Holy Spirit, should be defined. It all revolved around the interpretation of differing scriptural references concerning that relationship. One prime reference was the written story of Jesus baptism by John in the river Jordan. There had been the voice of God from heaven saying "this is my Beloved Son in whom I am well pleased," and the Spirit descending as a dove. In the minds of some, to be called a Son would indicate that He was a created Son of God and not a begotten equal. If Jesus was truly one with God He would have been eternal and not addressed as a created son.

The dispute had been inflamed on the issue of how to define the Godhead, and the contending parties were St. Alexander and Presbyter Arius of the Church of Alexandria, Egypt. Arius contended that God the Father and God the Son were different, and that the Son, though he may be the most perfect of all creations, was only a creation of God the Father; in opposition to St. Alexander who believed that the Son was of the same substance as the Father, and co-eternal with Him. In final resolution they coined the phrase "Three Persons of the Trinity" to define the Godhead. Since according to the Torah the promised redeemer had to be divine and there was only one God, in the minds of the Arian's by that definition Jesus could not be divine as was required to fulfill the Messianic prophecies if He was a separate person from God. Arius resisted and as the result of that edict, he was excommunicated.

This controversy is still raging! In many ways it's deceptively confusing and I may not be portraying the event with total clarity, but my only aim is to reveal that what is still going on in the world today is a result of that continuing rage. Through a continuing onslaught of satanic deception concerning the Divinity of the Christ, many have been blinded to the majestic beauty of God's eternal sacred design to reconcile mankind's sacred relationship with Him through the Passion of the Christ and grant us His free gift of eternal life. The most devastating result has been that millions of souls have perished, all through the Crusades of the Middle Age and now in Iraq and Afghanistan with contending spiritual ideologies rooted in that controversy.

The raging hostilities in the years and generations following that resentful clash gave rise to Arianism in opposition to the Nicene Creed. The theology of Arianism became fervently embraced by following generations of many families that had been in support of Arius, and those convictions became deeply ingrained in the spiritual ideology of Mohammad's family heritage. As a result, in Mohammad's quest for spiritual enlightenment he was inspired to write the Koran which is the sacred text of Islam. Going on from there with no clear understanding of the murderous satanic deception unleashed, or acceptance of any responsibility for what had created the clash, an enraged Islamic vs. Christian conflict has taken the lives of millions of precious souls.

Please read this carefully. I am in no way placing bigoted or prejudicial blame. When all the events and circumstances that have taken place over the course of history are examined with consideration and respect for all concerned, it can be clearly seen that the choices made were ethically honorable in light of the prevailing philosophical and spiritual ideologies of those involved. Constantine I, St. Alexander, Arius, and many others later involved including Mohammad, were only trying to do what they thought was right from their point of view.

As it now stands the clash has become a vehement "we're right, you're wrong" contest, in which even though we don't all use the same vernacular, both sides are accusing the other of being the infidel. So let us place all the blame where it belongs. It's not a matter of who's right or who's wrong; it's only about the fact that because of the deceptive lies of Satan, we've all lost sight of what's really at stake. Satan is standing on the brink of hell laughing, because through his cunningly deceitful lies he has us killing one another instead of loving one another, thinking we're doing God a service.

The one true God of Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael has only one desire. God wants all His created man to be blessed with His free gift of eternal life to live and reign with Him forever, and He has paid the ultimate price to make it so by sending His only begotten Son to be our redeemer. Oh, that man would only believe! Please let us make a new choice and let love be our controlling motivation.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2010, 06:34:07 AM by Peter »

Peter

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Re: Why Islamic Christian Conflict
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2010, 07:20:12 AM »
Hi James and welcome to the forum! :)

I see what may be a few difficulties with your post. First Christians aren't in conflict with Muslims since it is our job to love them. But it's every Christian's job to be in conflict with Islam because it is the EXACT OPPOSITE of the Gospel. Our weapon is the sword of the Spirit.

Surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

As you can see by the verse above Islam is the only anti-another-religion, religion, by design.
Additionally, Islam is antichrist as the most important fundamental of Mohammed's religion.

John 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Sura 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

1 John 2:22  Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].

When a Muslim confesses that Jesus is the Son of God he has committed the most egregious and only unpardonable sin in Islam (shirk).

Second regarding your suggestion of historical continuity, Mohammedanism wasn't invented until the 7th century A.D. (except it's prior history as being little more than repackaged Arabian Jinn worship and Star Family worship)
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=56.0

Third, I used to believe that Arabic Muslims were from the seed of Ishmael too (to whom NO covenant was given). But the historical fact is that Mohammed's tribe the Quraish came from Yemen, in the south of Arabia, and the 12 tribes of Ishmael inhabited the Sinai and extreme northwestern Arabia. There was no overland route between the two areas until around the 10th century BC. Mohammed's tribe was not Semitic. They migrated their way to Yemen from Ethiopia.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1216.0

Fourth regarding the reason for conflict, the Quran calls for it and Mohammed was perhaps the most consummate terrorist in human history. It isn't a fringe, but rather the fundamentalists that GET ISLAM that are responsible for murder, mayhem and misery all over the world today, just as they were during the first Islamic Jihad.

Sura 8:12 I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips  off them

Surah 9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. 30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!


Peter

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Re: Why Islamic Christian Conflict
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2010, 07:36:03 AM »

Just as to why the Lord established the lineage of Isaac to fulfill His promise to bless all the families of the earth through the seed of Abraham is not made perfectly clear. Many words of consideration and respect should be extended to the great peoples of the Arabic nations but suffice it to say that as written in the Torah, it is passionately clear that it had nothing to do with any condemnation or judgment of Ishmael's heritage. Ishmael was accepted in Abraham's family with the same manner of blessing as was Isaac. It's really a very sensitive and compassionate story.

Hagar and Ishmael were thrown out.

Gen 21 8  So the child grew and was weaned. And Abraham made a great feast on the same day that Isaac was weaned.    9  And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, scoffing.    10  Therefore she said to Abraham, "Cast out this bondwoman and her son; for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, [namely] with Isaac."    11  And the matter was very displeasing in Abraham's sight because of his son.    12  But God said to Abraham, "Do not let it be displeasing in your sight because of the lad or because of your bondwoman. Whatever Sarah has said to you, listen to her voice; for in Isaac your seed shall be called.    13  "Yet I will also make a nation of the son of the bondwoman, because he [is] your seed."    14  So Abraham rose early in the morning, and took bread and a skin of water; and putting [it] on her shoulder, he gave [it] and the boy to Hagar, and sent her away. Then she departed and wandered in the Wilderness of Beersheba.

Peter

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Re: Why Islamic Christian Conflict
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2010, 07:45:33 AM »
This controversy is still raging! In many ways it's deceptively confusing and I may not be portraying the event with total clarity, but my only aim is to reveal that what is still going on in the world today is a result of that continuing rage. Through a continuing onslaught of satanic deception concerning the Divinity of the Christ, many have been blinded to the majestic beauty of God's eternal sacred design to reconcile mankind's sacred relationship with Him through the Passion of the Christ and grant us His free gift of eternal life. The most devastating result has been that millions of souls have perished, all through the Crusades of the Middle Age and now in Iraq and Afghanistan with contending spiritual ideologies rooted in that controversy.

While the Crusades may have been conceived legitimately, to relieve the suffering of Christians at the hands of Islam in the Holy Land, the prosecution and history of that Roman Church misadventure demonstrates that it was specifically unChristian.
A visit to the Roman Catholic section of the forum might help.

What on earth causes you to equate Iraq and Afghanistan as being a "spiritual ideologies" on the part of Christians? It certainly is on the part of Islam as has been the case for 1400 years.

Soldiers had been leaving copies of the Gospel in Afghani homes (translated into the local dialect) when they were invited guests, but the U.S. government had all the bibles collected up and burned. So it is THE OPPOSITE of a Christian conflict.
NONE of our nations conflicts have included God since we divorced our country from God in 1947. The fruit has been self-evident in the subsequent conflicts.

Peter

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Re: Why Islamic Christian Conflict
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2010, 08:14:11 AM »
The dispute had been inflamed on the issue of how to define the Godhead, and the contending parties were St. Alexander and Presbyter Arius of the Church of Alexandria, Egypt. Arius contended that God the Father and God the Son were different, and that the Son, though he may be the most perfect of all creations, was only a creation of God the Father; in opposition to St. Alexander who believed that the Son was of the same substance as the Father, and co-eternal with Him. In final resolution they coined the phrase "Three Persons of the Trinity" to define the Godhead. Since according to the Torah the promised redeemer had to be divine and there was only one God, in the minds of the Arian�s by that definition Jesus could not be divine as was required to fulfill the Messianic prophecies if He was a separate person from God. Arius resisted and as the result of that edict, he was excommunicated.

This controversy is still raging! In many ways it�s deceptively confusing and I may not be portraying the event with total clarity, but my only aim is to reveal that what is still going on in the world today is a result of that continuing rage.

The world is the world. A natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God. Are you suggesting there is any controversy in the body of Christ regarding the divinity of Jesus Christ, or that God and Jesus Christ and the Spirit of God are all one and the same?

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three  are one.

Or the divinity of Christ?

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=40.0

James VI

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Re: Why Islamic Christian Conflict
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2010, 01:49:51 PM »
Thank you Peter and others who have responded -

I agree that Islam is the exact opposite of Christianity because of the Divinity of Christ issue, but the reason they don't believe in Christ's divinity is because Arius could not accept the "three person" edict of the Nicene Creed. As I said, in his mind if Jesus is a "distinct  person" then the "one God" edict of the Torah is violated. Yes, we in Christendom accept the St. Alexander position that as "the same substance as the Father" and "begotten," Christ is co-equal with the Father and therefore Divine. By that you can plainly see that I in no way am suggesting there is any controversy in the body of Christ regarding the divinity of Jesus Christ. Again, through satanic deception they were robbed of a clear understanding of the true nature of Christ's divinity and in their minds that meant the promised redeemer has not yet appeared.

Second, I didn't say when Mohammedanism was invented. I just depicted a timeline from the Nicene Council through the family lineage to Mohammed who composed the Koran, the founding text for Islam. I did not say when that was because anyone can read history and learn that Mohammed wasn't even born until 570 in the Arabian city of Mecca.

Third, I did not say that "Muslims" were from the seed of Ishmael. I merely stated that the historic Arabic peoples were from the seed of Ishmael. That is a historic fact. So if an Arabic kin takes up the Islam faith, then that Muslim is of the seed of Ishmael because they are Arabic. In light of that as fact, as to whether Mohammad himself was Arabic is really of no consequence. According to Muslim tradition however, Muhammad was a Hanif and one of the descendants of Ishmael, son of Abraham. By the time of his death, most of the Arabian Peninsula had converted to Islam; and he united the tribes of Arabia into a single Muslim religious polity.

Subnote:  you say: "the seed of Ishmael too (to whom NO covenant was given)." Please read Genesis 17:18-27. I did not say God established His covenant with Ishmael. In fact I specifically said the Lord established His covenant with Isaac. I only wanted to show that originally there was no animosity between Ishmael and Isaac in Abraham's family. As you can see, Ishmael was circumcised along with Abraham even before Isaac was born "in the next year."

And fourth, yes the Koran calls for a conflict on the basis that the "infidel" is cursed and must be smitten because "they are deluded away from the Truth!" Surah 9:29. To the true Muslim we are spreading false doctrine because of what they see as our false teaching on the divinity of Christ. Yes, we rightly believe on the divinity of the Christ but this is just another of the ways Satan has murderously deceived to create a hostile misunderstanding. And again, many have been deceived on this issue in various manners which has created many contending "isms."

Next I did not equate Iraq and Afghanistan as being a "spiritual ideologies" on the part of Christians. Please read it again. What I said was: millions of souls have perished, all through the Crusades of the Middle Age and now in Iraq and Afghanistan with "contending spiritual ideologies rooted in that controversy," the controversy over the divinity of the Christ between the Islamic and Christian ideologues. And yes, the prime perpetrators today are un-Christian. Please, I am not contending with you. Thank you
« Last Edit: September 18, 2010, 04:36:02 AM by Peter »

Peter

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Re: Why Islamic Christian Conflict
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2010, 04:31:13 PM »
Thank you Peter and others who have responded -

I agree that Islam is the exact opposite of Christianity because of the Divinity of Christ issue...

That certainly isn't what I indicated demonstrates that Islam is the opposite. Please reread the first post and the verse I quoted from the Quran again. Specific denial that Jesus died on the cross is what makes Islam the EXACT OPPOSITE of the Gospel, since salvation through the shed blood of Christ is the subject of the new covenant.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1175.0
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=54.0

I'll pause there before I continue with your post.

Peter

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Re: Why Islamic Christian Conflict
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2010, 04:53:06 PM »
Yes, we in Christendom accept the St. Alexander position.....

I'll risk one more, that doesn't need to be responded to, but please don't get distracted and do start with the prior post.
The "we" in Christendom that I know accept the position as detailed in the the Gospel. Whether that does or doesn't happen to be consistent with an individual's position is irrelevant.

James VI

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Re: Why Islamic Christian Conflict
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2010, 09:05:02 PM »
Peter -

There is so much to this story, so much history between the time of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus and all that took place at that time, then on to the time of the Nicene Council in 325 AD, and on to Muhammad�s time of composition of the Koran between 610 and 632 CE, that to regard one verse as revealing all that Mohammad was trying to reveal would be the same as taking a chosen biblical passage out of context. To start with, at the time of Jesus resurrection when the guards of the tomb where Jesus lay reported to the chief priests to reveal what they had witnessed, when the elders;

"had taken counsel, they gave large money unto the soldiers, Saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him away while we slept. And if this come to the governor's ears, we will persuade him, and secure you. So they took the money, and did as they were taught: and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day." Matthew 28:13-15 (KJV)

With that, the common story that was spread far and wide was that Jesus was not actually "killed" in His time on the Cross, but that some had come and helped revive Him and stole Him away. Later, even any reports made that Jesus had been seen by many after His "resurrection" (as claimed by some) was in their minds only proof of that. So as time went on in the Jewish community, and even by many others, Jesus was not in any way believed to have been the Messiah. By Mohammad's time that story was widely accepted by those who didn't actually believe that Jesus was the promised Messiah, including all those who had been influenced by Arius to deny the Divinity of Jesus.       Thus:

"And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain." Koran AN-NISA (Women) 004.157

So later by Muhammad's time, the final seal on the issue had been the edict of the Nicene Council, of the "three persons" in the triune godhead. Mohammad agreed with Arius position that if Jesus was a distinct person apart from God the Father, He was not divine and could not actually be the promised Messiah. To him it all fit together to solidify his conviction that Jesus was not the promised Messiah after all, but he did accept Jesus as "Allah's messenger."

So the primary oppositional issue between Christianity and Islam is the absolute difference in consideration of the Divinity of Jesus and not just that they don't believe in His crucifixion. The proof of His Divinity was in His resurrection and not in His crucifixion. Many had been crucified but only Jesus was resurrected in fulfillment of the prophecy that He would "not see corruption." (Psalm 16:10) The Jews didn't believe in Jesus resurrection and it was that rejection of the proof of Jesus divinity established by them that started the whole controversy, and then sealed by the Arianism rejection.

 I agree that salvation is only through the shed blood of Christ and is the subject of the new covenant. It just is that if Jesus isn't divine, His shed blood would mean nothing.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2010, 04:37:41 AM by Peter »

Peter

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Re: Why Islamic Christian Conflict
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2010, 06:41:08 AM »
Peter

There is so much to this story, so much history between the time of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus and all that took place at that time, then on to the time of the Nicene Council in 325 AD, and on to Muhammad�s time of composition of the Koran between 610 and 632 CE, that to regard one verse as revealing all that Mohammad was trying to reveal would be the same as taking a chosen biblical passage out of context.

I don't agree. There are many times a single verse speaks volumes. This is a pretty concise one verse summary of the Gospel.

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Following is the perfect opposite. There is absolutely no context that changes the content of this verse, or allows it to be understood in any other way than being the exact opposite of the Gospel.

Surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

Islam is a religion based on what isn't.
It's about what didn't happen.
Mohammed filled Muslims with complete resolve as to WHO DIDN'T die on the cross, and left a complete vacuum as to just who did die on the cross.
Islam is to Christianity as the negative is to a photograph.
Thus we can see (and on many levels including his own testimony) that Mohammed was inspired by Satan.
Islam is as much the opposite to Christianity as Mohammed was to Jesus Christ since Mohammed was an illiterate, pillaging, plundering, murdering, child doing, prisoner raping, stepson's only wife stealing, sex slave prostituting, concubine fornicating, lying, cheating, blood drenched, imperialistic, conquering, terrorist, thief. A man, and book that are THE EXACT OPPOSITE of Jesus and the New Testament.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=336.0

To start with, at the time of Jesus resurrection when the guards of the tomb where Jesus lay reported to the chief priests to reveal what they had witnessed, when the elders;

��had taken counsel, they gave large money unto the soldiers, Saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him away while we slept. And if this come to the governor's ears, we will persuade him, and secure you. So they took the money, and did as they were taught: and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day.� Matthew 28:13-15 (KJV)

With that, the common story that was spread far and wide was that Jesus was not actually �killed� in His time on the Cross, but that some had come and helped revive Him and stole Him away. Later, even any reports made that Jesus had been seen by many after His �resurrection� (as claimed by some) was in their minds only proof of that. So as time went on in the Jewish community, and even by many others, Jesus was not in any way believed to have been the Messiah. By Mohammad�s time that story was widely accepted by those who didn�t actually believe that Jesus was the promised Messiah, including all those who had been influenced by Arius to deny the Divinity of Jesus.       Thus:

�And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.� Koran AN-NISA (Women) 004.157

So later by Muhammad�s time, the final seal on the issue had been the edict of the Nicene Council, of the �three persons� in the triune godhead. Mohammad agreed with Arius position that if Jesus was a distinct person apart from God the Father, He was not divine and could not actually be the promised Messiah. To him it all fit together to solidify his conviction that Jesus was not the promised Messiah after all, but he did accept Jesus as �Allah�s messenger.�

So the primary oppositional issue between Christianity and Islam is the absolute difference in consideration of the Divinity of Jesus and not just that they don�t believe in His crucifixion. The proof of His Divinity was in His resurrection and not in His crucifixion. Many had been crucified but only Jesus was resurrected in fulfillment of the prophecy that He would �not see corruption.� (Psalm 16:10) The Jews didn�t believe in Jesus resurrection and it was that rejection of the proof of Jesus divinity established by them that started the whole controversy, and then sealed by the Arianism rejection.

 I agree that salvation is only through the shed blood of Christ and is the subject of the new covenant. It just is that if Jesus isn�t divine, His shed blood would mean nothing.

Why? What if God had created a mortal man through the virgin Mary, and had given that man as a sacrifice, through which all who had faith in his shed blood would be saved.

Now what I am not going to do is follow you further down the road that you seem headed down that may result in outright blasphemy. Particularly by way of the sheer confusion of your OP and inadequate defense thereof. For example,

"The answer can only be found in an examination of the historic timeline of Islamic and Judeo/Christian societal variance from its very beginning."

God revealed Himself to His people beginning about 3500 years ago. That was the "very beginning" of the record that I believe. Mohammed created his religion 1400 years ago.

Then when I inquired about your "timeline" you then went on to indicate...

"I just depicted a timeline from the Nicene Council through the family lineage to Mohammed who composed the Koran, the founding text for Islam."

However there was no Mohammedanism until many hundreds of years after the Nicene Council. So there was no "variance" possible between the two religions until Mohammed was inspired by Satan to invent his in the 7th century.
You see? You simply aren't making any sense my friend. And rather than a direct answer you seem to prefer a cloud of equally jumbled words instead. Why not pick a clear topic, or a sentence or two that you would like to explore further. The confusion requires a sentence by sentence exegesis of "what do you mean be this" and "this isn't consistent with this".

For example
"Third, I did not say that �Muslims� were from the seed of Ishmael. I merely stated that the historic Arabic peoples were from the seed of Ishmael. That is a historic fact."

No shortage of Muslims believe that but is it a historic fact? I had believed that myself but I no longer do. I had offered you a thread that discusses this.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1216.0

Perhaps it would help if you shared your goal with us. Is it to impress us with how similar you believe Mohammedanism is to Christianity? You seem to be heading down a course of making excuses for Islam.

Peter

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Re: Why Islamic Christian Conflict
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2010, 11:53:17 AM »
Why War in Iraq & Afghanistan?
The Real Story Totally Ignored!

The "real story" is the dar el salaam, or house of peace, against the dar el harb, or house of war. If you are a Muslim you are in the dar el salaam. If you are a non-Muslim you are in the dar el harb, and while you may not be at war against Islam, Islam has been at war against you for 1400 years.

Sura 8:12 I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them

http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=52.0

James VI

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Re: Why Islamic Christian Conflict
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2010, 02:29:45 PM »
Thank you again Peter - and again, I am not contending against you. It's all a matter of the difficulty we all have in retro-responsive communication. In fact, this is the reason we've had such difficulty all through history, which has allowed Satan to so easily deceive us. To some, my words may not appear as clear, but they are meant to be unambiguous and clear.

To be more clear, let me start with the timeline. I said that God first met with Abram when he was 75, which was about 350 years after the great flood and about 700 years before the writing of the Torah. I did not include this, but if you know the historic timeline accurately, that means very close to 4100 years ago.

I did not include this, but God first met with His people at Mt. Sinai about 1435 BC, so yes that was about 3500 years ago. I only said the Torah was composed about 700 years after God first met with Abram which would have been about 3400 years ago. There are actually many questions as to when the first writings of the Torah were composed, that's why I said "about."

And please, again, I also specifically said that the Nicene council was convened in 325 and Mohammad composed the Koran in the years between 610 and 632, which was as you say it, hundreds of years later in the 7th century, and so yes, that would have been when the "variance" between the two religions began. Please read it carefully.

I also said very clearly that Mohammad's inspiration to write the Koran was the result of his belief in the Arius position that Jesus could not have been divine. That position was the result of many interwoven satanic evil deceptive lies.

I have said nothing in contention with you, so please my friend, for you to say "You simply aren't making any sense my friend. And rather than a direct answer you seem to prefer a cloud of equally jumbled words instead" can only indicate that you haven't read all I said with clarity.

In response to your opening statement: "Why? What if God had created a mortal man through the virgin Mary, and had given that man as a sacrifice, through which all who had faith in his shed blood would be saved." And then you go on to say: "Now what I am not going to do is follow you further down the road that you seem headed down that may result in outright blasphemy.

First of all, God did create Jesus as a mortal man through the Virgin (capitalized) Mary, and gave Him as a sacrifice though which all that had faith in his shed blood would be saved. That is absolutely true. I did not indicate otherwise. I only noted that Jesus was also divine. God could not have created a merely mortal man through a virgin birth because to be merely mortal and not be divine would require the seed of man and not to be conceived of the Holy Ghost. If you are implying that God could have created a mortal man that wasn't also divine, and by his sacrifice all who had faith in his shed blood would be saved, that would be blasphemy!

You see, Jesus had to be divine or His shed blood would have meant nothing, because only by being divine could His blood have been sinless. That is why Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary, conceived of the Holy Ghost and not of the seed of man, that His blood would be sinless and He would be Divine, born as the only begotten; as God in the flesh. This is also why He is the way, the truth, and the life, and the only way to come unto the Father, because there can be only One having infinitely sinless blood that could be shed as immutable recompense for man's sin penalty, once and for all. I guess my question for you Peter is, do you believe in the Virgin birth?

Please let me know if you want to go on. I will be glad to clearly define my goal. Thank you.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2010, 04:38:40 AM by Peter »

Peter

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Re: Why Islamic Christian Conflict
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2010, 03:11:51 PM »
Please let me know if you want to go on. I will be glad to clearly define my goal. Thank you.

I already invited you to do that. Indeed requested that you do that. Why ask again?
But you are straying further off topic regarding the conflict mentioned in the OP. The fact is that opposition to God is of Satan, in whatever forum.

The fact is that there is no context whatsoever that can make this verse be understood other than as the opposite of the Gospel.

Surah 4.157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

Any more than we can change the fact that 1.5 billion Muslims must - AND DO - deny that Jesus was killed, in order to follow Mohammed, necessarily separating them from the blood that would save them.
The conflict is Satan's minions against Gods people as it has been from the get go. Why complicate it with another cloud of words?

Perhaps you didn't notice that this forum is primarily dedicated to bringing the truth to Muslims.

Peter

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Re: Why Islamic Christian Conflict
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2010, 04:23:19 PM »
First of all, God did create Jesus...

I understand that as the Jehovah's Witness' view. Are you JW?

James VI

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Re: Why Islamic Christian Conflict
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2010, 12:06:32 AM »
Peter -

You say: "I already invited you to do that. Indeed requested that you do that. Why ask again?" I didn't ask anything. I said: "Please let me know if you want to go on. I will be glad to clearly define my goal. Thank you." So I will continue and do that. Thank you.

I agree that to use the phrase "God did create Jesus as a mortal man" can be misleading by itself. That's why I said Jesus was not only created as a mortal, but also divine, to distinguish the difference. So please, allow me to ne more careful in our further discussion. In one of my posts I did refer to St. Alexander's position in the Nicene language as differentiating between "created Son" and "begotten Son." By that I am acmitting that I should be more careful to only refer to Jesus birth of the Virgin Mary as "begotton Son of God." Please forgive.

My only aim is as yours, I also am primarily interested in bringing the truth to Muslims. Thank you again, because even though God knows my heart and knows that is my desire, I more plainly see that I have to be very discerning in my way of writing.

And no, I am not Jehovah's Witness. One of their core beliefs is: "When Jesus was on earth he was a perfect human being, but he was not divine in any way." One of my core beliefs is that Jesus is divine, and I have stated that many times in my posts.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2010, 12:55:52 AM by James Vian »

Peter

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Re: Why Islamic Christian Conflict
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2010, 03:14:22 AM »
Peter -

You say: "I already invited you to do that. Indeed requested that you do that. Why ask again?" I didn't ask anything. I said: "Please let me know if you want to go on. I will be glad to clearly define my goal. Thank you." So I will continue and do that. Thank you.

I agree that to use the phrase "God did create Jesus as a mortal man" can be misleading by itself. That's why I said Jesus was not only created as a mortal, but also divine, to distinguish the difference. So please, allow me to ne more careful in our further discussion. In one of my posts I did refer to St. Alexander's position in the Nicene language as differentiating between "created Son" and "begotten Son." By that I am acmitting that I should be more careful to only refer to Jesus birth of the Virgin Mary as "begotton Son of God." Please forgive.


I like the descriptive term "manifest" or "made manifest", or revealed, as used in my KJV.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

he should be made manifest
New Testament Greek Definition:
5319 phaneroo {fan-er-o'-o}
from 5318; TDNT - 9:3,1244; v
AV - make manifest 19, appear 12, manifest 9, show 3, be manifest 2,
show (one's) self 2, manifestly declare 1, manifest forth 1; 49
1) to make manifest or visible or known what has been hidden or unknown,
to manifest, whether by words, or deeds, or in any other way
1a) make actual and visible, realised
1b) to make known by teaching
1c) to become manifest, be made known
1d) of a person
1d1) expose to view, make manifest, to show one's self, appear
1e) to become known, to be plainly recognised, thoroughly understood
1e1) who and what one is
For Synonyms see entry 5812


My only aim is as yours, I also am primarily interested in bringing the truth to Muslims.

Nice to have you on board. By the way, did you get a chance to review any material on the origins of Mohammed's tribe the Quraish?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1132.msg4473#msg4473
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1216.0
According to Dr. Amari's research there wasn't any overland connection between northwestern and southwestern Arabia until about the 10th century BC. The Ishmaelites inhabited the northern Sinai and northwestern Arabia and, if anything, migrated more toward the north into the fertile crescent, and/or were exiled or absorbed into Arabian immigrants that moved in among them to take over an intersection of 3 trade routes.

Regarding their forming a "great" nation, they were described in one passage as being numerous as locusts, perhaps indicating that prophecy was fulfilled a long time ago. When I get a chance I will type that part of Amari's argument in the history section.

 
Thank you again, because even though God knows my heart and knows that is my desire, I more plainly see that I have to be very discerning in my way of writing.

And no, I am not Jehovah's Witness. One of their core beliefs is: "When Jesus was on earth he was a perfect human being, but he was not divine in any way." One of my core beliefs is that Jesus is divine, and I have stated that many times in my posts.


I know very little about JW but did know that they believe Jesus is a created being. I didn't know that they do not even ascribe divinity to Jesus or I wouldn't have asked if you were one.

James VI

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Re: Why Islamic Christian Conflict
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2010, 01:18:33 PM »
Why War in Iraq & Afghanistan? The Real Story Totally Ignored!

As long as all national leaders, the news media, war pundits, and all others with a voice, continue their focus on terrorism, national defense, power conspiracies, war strategies, etc., etc., the story of what's really going on in the world is lost in a dark global cloud of murderous deceit! If we are to ever find the true answer to the ravages of war and terrorism being perpetrated by the Islamic extremists in an enraged conflict with who they consider to be Judeo/Christian infidels, we must be willing to address the root cause which has been totally ignored because of the deceitful lie of political correctness.

The answer can only be found in an examination of the events on the timeline of history from its very beginning that have led to the present day Islamic and Judeo/Christian societal variance. The world has not been willing to look at this because of the politically correct attitude that to do so would inflame enraged feelings of bigotry and prejudice. When history is examined with an understanding of the root cause with respect for the peoples and ultimately the nations involved, it can be seen that there is no justification for bigotry or prejudice in any manner. The only question is, do we want to know the answer and are we willing to face it even if it means we have to make individual or societal admissions of contributing responsibility? Unless we're willing, all the war, the terrorism, and all the anguish the world is suffering, will continue and only grow worse!

The prime issue is a matter the world as a whole has chosen to disavow. This one matter is all that has ever gone on in the entire history of man. It's the story of what creation, time, life, and eternity are all about. For some enigmatic reason mankind has chosen to completely ignore the significance of this matter in regards to our personal and inter-societal relationships and our eternal destiny. Again, unless we address this issue and change our self-determined societal choices in view of its all encompassing significance, our world will only continue on a dreadful self-destructive path.

The only thing standing in our way of perceiving the full truth is our view of the biblical record. But here it is, and whether we accept it or not, it's the only source we have to understand what's going on with any chance we may have to end the Islamic vs. Judeo/Christian atrocities which will only escalate if we continue to disavow it. As we examine history, all wars of any consequence including the present   hostilities in Iraq and Afghanistan, have been the result of confrontational differences in the acceptance or rejection by various governments of the ethical and just directives of God's Word. Over the course of history that reference has not been available in many societies, in which case oppositional standards were established as determined by those in control to defend their self chosen form of government.

With this in mind, let us go on. The whole story started in the very beginning with Adam and Eve in the garden, but for this examination of the circumstances and events that formed the present day clash between Islam and Judeo/Christianity it all started in the family of Abram and Sarai of the lineage of Noah's son Shem, about 350 years after the great flood, and about 700 years before the writing of the Torah which was about 4100 years ago. When Abram was 75 years old God made a promise to them that out of their family lineage all the families of the earth would be blessed.

After many life forming events over the next 9 or 10 years of Abram's life, Sarai had still not born him an heir, and she chose to take Hagar her Egyptian handmaid and give her to Abram to be his wife. After Hagar conceived, great resentment grew between her and Sarai and Sarai ran her away. In Hagar's plight the angel of the Lord appeared unto her and promised to multiply her seed exceedingly that it would not be numbered for multitude. Out of that union when Abram was 86 years old, Ishmael, the father of all the Arabic nations was born, an impressive and mighty people.

Later, when Abram was 99 years old, the Lord appeared unto Abram one more time to reaffirm His covenant with him and to multiply his seed exceedingly. In that meeting, the Lord changed Abram's name to Abraham as a father of many nations. At that same time the Lord changed Sarai's name to Sarah and blessed her to give Abraham a son, that she should be a mother of nations. The name of the promised son would be Isaac, and the Lord would establish His covenant with Isaac as an everlasting covenant. It would be through that lineage that the Lord's promise would be fulfilled.

Just as to why the Lord established the lineage of Isaac to fulfill His promise to bless all the families of the earth through the seed of Abraham is not made perfectly clear. Many words of consideration and respect should be extended to the great peoples of the Arabic nations but suffice it to say that as written in the Torah, it is passionately clear that it had nothing to do with any condemnation or judgment of Ishmael's heritage. Ishmael was accepted in Abraham's family with the same manner of family blessing as was Isaac. It's really a very sensitive and compassionate story.

So why has the clash occurred? It was through the lineage of Isaac, 2056 years later, that Joseph with his betrothed Mary, the Virgin Mother of Jesus, would appear. At that time the Arabic nations believed the prophetic word of God's promise for a redeemer as recorded in the Torah just as expectantly as did the Jewish peoples. With the message of Jesus birth of the Virgin Mary, His powerful life ministry, His Crucifixion, burial and resurrection, as fervently proclaimed by the early church founders, the Roman, Arabic and Egyptian nations were all believing on the Lord Jesus Christ as the promised Messiah just as readily as were the Jewish peoples, maybe even more.

Then the unimaginable occurred! In a contentious heated debate, early church leaders were meeting to iron out differences as to how they perceived the relationship of God the Father, Jesus the Son of God, and the Holy Spirit, should be defined. It all revolved around the interpretation of differing scriptural references concerning that relationship. One prime reference was the written story of Jesus baptism by John in the river Jordan. There had been the voice of God from heaven saying "this is my Beloved Son in whom I am well pleased," and the Spirit descending as a dove. In the minds of some, to be called a Son would indicate that He was a created Son of God and not a begotten equal. If Jesus was truly one with God He would have been eternal and not addressed as a created son.

The dispute had been inflamed on the issue of how to define the Godhead, and the contending parties were St. Alexander and Presbyter Arius of the Church of Alexandria, Egypt. Arius contended that God the Father and God the Son were different, and that the Son, though he may be the most perfect of all creations, was only a creation of God the Father; in opposition to St. Alexander who believed that the Son was of the same substance and eternally co-equal with the Father. In final compromised resolution they coined the phrase "Three Persons of the Trinity" to define the Godhead. Since according to the Torah the promised redeemer had to be divine and there was only one God, in the minds of the Arian's by that definition Jesus could not be divine as was required to fulfill the Messianic prophecies if He was a separate person from God. Arius resisted and as the result of that edict, he was excommunicated.

This controversy is still raging! In many ways it's deceptively confusing and I may not be portraying the event with total clarity, but my only aim is to reveal that what is still going on in the world today is a result of that continuing rage. Through a continuing onslaught of satanic deception concerning the Divinity of the Christ, many have been blinded to the majestic beauty of God's eternal sacred design to reconcile mankind's sacred relationship with Him through the Passion of the Christ and grant us His free gift of eternal life. The most devastating result has been that millions of souls have perished, all through the Crusades of the Middle Age and now in Iraq and Afghanistan with contending spiritual ideologies inflamed by that controversy.

The raging hostilities in the years and generations following that resentful clash gave rise to Arianism in opposition to the Nicene Creed. The theology of Arianism became fervently embraced by following generations of many families that had been in support of Arius, and those convictions became deeply ingrained in the spiritual ideology of Mohammad's family heritage. As a result, in Mohammad's quest for spiritual enlightenment he was inspired to write the Koran in alignment with the Arian view, which is the sacred text of Islam. Going on from there, with growing levels of belligerent animosity between those of the Nicene and Arian Creeds, Mohammad chose to defend his position aggressively

Please read this carefully. In all I have said so far, I am in no way placing bigoted or prejudicial blame. When all the events and circumstances that have taken place over the course of history are examined with consideration and respect for all concerned, it can be clearly seen that the choices made were ethically honorable in light of the prevailing philosophical and spiritual ideologies of those involved. Constantine I, St. Alexander, Arius, and many others later involved including Mohammad, were only trying to do what they thought was right from their point of view. Through a continuing onslaught of satanic deception since, an enraged conflict of contending Islamic vs. Christian fervently opinionated spiritual agendas has been inflamed, which has taken the lives of millions of precious souls.

As it now stands the clash has become a belligerent "we're right, you're wrong" confrontation, in which even though we don't all use the same vernacular, both sides are accusing one another of being either a heretic or an infidel, which are in essence the same. So let us place all the blame where it belongs. It's not just a matter of who's right or who's wrong; it's only about the fact that through the onslaught of cunning satanic deception, the truth has not been made clear and what's really at stake has been lost, which is either the salvation or loss of millions of precious souls. Satan is standing on the brink of hell laughing, because through the success of his murderous deceit he sees millions losing their lives and all hope in the ravages of war and terrorism.

The one true God of Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael has only one desire. God wants all His created man to be blessed with His free gift of eternal life to live and reign with Him forever, and He has paid the ultimate price to make it so by sending His only begotten Son to be our redeemer. Oh, that man would only believe!
« Last Edit: September 18, 2010, 04:40:28 AM by Peter »

Peter

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Re: Why Islamic Christian Conflict
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2010, 03:30:18 PM »
Why the change in user ID and repost of the OP?

As it now stands the clash has become a vehement �we're right, you�re wrong� contest...

It's not a contest. The simple fact is that according the the 1600 year record of God to mankind, someone IS right, and someone else IS terribly and tragically wrong. If anyone reading this has doubts regarding Islam being the latter, why not start in the "History of Islam" category? http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=56.0

..... in which even though we don�t all use the same vernacular, both sides are accusing the other of being the infidel....

While the term is certainly applied to Islamic apostates and Christians by Muslims, I don't believe the reverse is very often the case.

..... So let us place all the blame where it belongs.

Regarding Islam that would be Satan through the false prophet Mohammed.

It�s not a matter of who�s right or who�s wrong;......

From a Christian perspective it is.

...... it�s only about the fact that because of the deceptive lies of Satan, we�ve all lost sight of what�s really at stake.

Whose the "we've all" that have lost sight?  Certainly not born again Christians that bother to investigate Islam.
What IS "really at stake"? Scripture details just what's at stake and it doesn't bode well for the souls of 1.5 billion people - 1/4 of mankind - in Islam alone.

Satan is standing on the brink of hell laughing, because through his cunningly deceitful lies he has us killing one another ......

Who's the "us" that you suggest Satan "has"? Where is there an army of Christians killing Muslims? Where does scripture instruct Christians to kill Muslims, or anybody else?

Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

..... instead of loving one another, thinking we�re doing God a service.

What's a good way to love Muslims?

Please let us make a new choice and let love be our controlling motivation.

Who's the "us" that needs to make a "new choice"?
Does the RCC at the following link demonstrate the best way to love Muslims?

http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=600.0

James VI

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Re: Why Islamic Christian Conflict
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2010, 09:57:02 AM »
OOPS! I didn't intend to repost it. Sorry. I was trying to change some of the wording in my OP and did something with the quote function, and I didn't know it would do what it did. Is there any way I can modify my original post because I agree with you that some of the wording may be misleading and think it's important that viewers are not misled. And no Peter, I don't feel like a contest so please forgive. I really appreciate our exchange. I feel I'm learning a lot. Thank you.

By the way, I really like your further questions and comments. I'll respond in a diferent reply.

PS: I only changed my post name to make it shorter and make it a little less direct. I had originally tried just "James" but found that was already in use. No weird reason. Thanks again.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2010, 10:42:58 AM by James VI »

Peter

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Re: Why Islamic Christian Conflict
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2010, 10:43:07 AM »
OOPS! I didn't intend to repost it. Sorry. I was trying to change some of the wording in my OP and did something with the quote function, and I didn't know it would do what it did. Is there any way I can modify my original post because I agree with you that some of the wording may be misleading and think it's important that viewers are not misled. And no Peter, I don't feel like a contest so please forgive. I really appreciate our exchange. I feel I'm learning a lot. Thank you.

By the way, I really like your further questions and comments. I'll respond in a diferent reply'

PS: I only changed my post name to make it shorter and make it a little less direct. I had originally tried just "James" but found that was already in use. No wierd reason. Thanks again.

Do you see where it says "modify" to the upper right of your post? I just changed it to 5,000 minutes or around 3 1/2 days to edit.
I generally edit stuff unless someone has quoted it. When that's the case I simply discuss the error, or suggest a better way I might have expressed something, in a subsequent post.

And don't be afraid to chop a post up into smaller posts when replying if you are moved to do so.

James VI

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Re: Why Islamic Christian Conflict
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2010, 07:39:36 PM »
Thank you. I think the revised version is better but I don't claim to have it all stated in the most perfect way. I only hope to open a dialog that can lead to better understanding for all. Is there any way we can use the revised version in place of my opening post and erase this one rather than be redundant?

Peter

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Re: Why Islamic Christian Conflict
« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2010, 03:20:39 AM »
Thank you. I think the revised version is better but I don't claim to have it all stated in the most perfect way. I only hope to open a dialog that can lead to better understanding for all. Is there any way we can use the revised version in place of my opening post and erase this one rather than be redundant?

I noted it and added a link to it on the OP. Let me know if you want my note on your OP worded differently.

James VI

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Re: Why Islamic Christian Conflict
« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2010, 01:27:49 PM »
In response to your April 9 post:
Thank you again. I also prefer the terms, "manifest" or "made manifest" or "revealed," in place of  even "begotten." ".God was manifest in the flesh," (I Timothy 3:16)

In response to your April 10 post:
The clash is confrontational. Many words can be used to define it but the result is the same. Yes there is right and there is tragic wrong, it's just that I didn't want to cast any aspersions. Once the truth is expressed as inspired by the Holy Spirit with love and respect, I choose to let the Lord reveal who's right and who's wrong by the still small voice of His Spirit to all concerned. One of our major problems is that "we" collectively, both sides, are unwilling to admit that none of us have it perfectly right. That's why there's always been so much argument.

Rather than blaming Mohammad of being a false profit as though he deliberately chose to be that way, I choose to believe he was searching for truth but through an ongoing onslaught of cunning satanic deception, he was blinded to the truth and unintentionally authored false prophetic doctrine. In the same situation under the same set of circumstances, any of us may have been equally deceived to write in the same manner. None are righteous, no not one.

I didn't say there was an army of Christians killing Muslims and to suggest that I was indicating in any way that scripture instructs them to kill Muslims or anyone else is a  twist of my words. I was only indicating that in the present raging conflict there are those on both sides that are killing one another in defense of what they believe is right in opposition to those on the other side that from their perspective are wrong. And even though no particular Christian is guilty of "killing Muslims," collectively, those in a Christian culture are at war, in our case a war on terrorism, against those committing the atrocities, the Muslim extremists. Thus, through Satan's deceptive lies, he laughs as he sees "us" killing one another instead of loving one another as we should.

For the other quoted questionable phrases I edited the OP entry for hopefully, more clarity.

« Last Edit: September 18, 2010, 04:41:41 AM by Peter »

Peter

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Re: Why Islamic Christian Conflict
« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2010, 01:35:43 PM »
I didn't suggest "manifest" in place of "begotten". Nor do I believe it can be used as a substitute. Both terms have their place as found in scripture. I suggested using "manifest" when you indicated that Jesus was "created".
Your having added the "even" does little to change the appearance of my having suggested that it did, if that's what you intended by adding that word.

1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=227.0

resistingrexmundi

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Re: Why Islamic Christian Conflict
« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2010, 01:53:30 PM »
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Rather than blaming Mohammad of being a false profit as though he deliberately chose to be that way, I choose to believe he was searching for truth but through an ongoing onslaught of cunning satanic deception, he was blinded to the truth and unintentionally authored false prophetic doctrine.

Unfortunately, this isn't about blame but facts. It is irrelevant whether Muhammad was looking for truth and just got decieved. God punished Adam and Eve for disobedience and they were certainly more innocent than Muhammad. Muhammad was beseeched many times during the course of his ministry to turn from immorality and evil and yet he continued down that path. He considered noone else's affections unless they benefitted himself in one way or another. Whether it was materially or by portraying him as beneficit. Muhammad is shown by the koran and hadith to be a cowardly, murdering, raping, child-molesting, lying, devious megalomaniac.

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One of our major problems is that "we" collectively, both sides, are unwilling to admit that none of us have it perfectly right. That’s why there’s always been so much argument.

I will have to disagree with you their. Jesus made it clear that there were only two sides. There is no middle ground where we get to straddle the fence and appease both parties.

Mat 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

You cannot truthfully claim to be WITH Jesus if you deny the truth of His deity, His atoning sacrafice, His sonship to the Father, and His ultimate role as Judge of us all. These are all large parts of Islamic indoctrination in its' relation to Christianity.

Muhammad came and taught another Gospel.

2Cr 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him].

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Muhammad was and remains a false prophet. Because of his teachings nearly 1.5 billion people today are taught against the Gospel almost from the moment of birth. Do you see the futility of trying to find a middle ground in our differences on this issue?

 
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And even though no particular Christian is guilty of “killing Muslims,” collectively, those in a Christian culture are at war, in our case a war on terrorism, against those committing the atrocities, the Muslim extremists. Thus, through Satan’s deceptive lies, he laughs as he sees “us” killing one another instead of loving one another as we should.

In case you haven't noticed there is no "Christian culture" anymore. Our lawmakers are ever closing the noose on those who wish to worship faithfully the one by which all things consist. In fact our government even ordered the burning of Bibles in those countries because the soldiers were exercising Christian principles and trying to spread the Gospel. Therefore it is errant and misleading to claim that this confict is in any way attributable to Christianity or any extension of it.

Doth that man love his Lord who would be willing to see Jesus wearing a crown of thorns, while for himself he craves a chaplet of laurel? Shall Jesus ascend to his throne by the cross, and do we expect to be carried there on the shoulders of applauding crowds? Charles H. Spurgeon