The Two Witnesses

[caracasmc]

Just some questions I had after reading Revelation 11 regarding the "two witnesses".

I read in "The False Prophet" that the two witnesses are the Jews and the Christian church.  Am I understanding that correctly?

If so, are we currently in this time of the two witnesses?  In other words, is Revelation 11 happening as we speak?  We, the two witnesses, are currently witnessing?
If so, how do we explain v. 5-7
Rev 11:5"And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them."

Where is this "power" to speak fire, and devour our enemies and that they be killed if they try to hurt us?  Is this supposed to be happening now?
Where is this power to shut heaven and turn water to blood and smite the earth with plaques as often as we will?  Is this supposed to be happening now?

I'm not understanding these verses in the context of the two witnesses being the jews and christian believers.  When is all this supposed to be happening?

Thanks!

[Peter]

Just some questions I had after reading Revelation 11 regarding the "two witnesses".

I read in "The False Prophet" that the two witnesses are the Jews and the Christian church.  Am I understanding that correctly?

 That isn't a unique view.

http://beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm#two_witnesses

Matthew Henry: "Some think these two witnesses are Enoch and Elias, who are to return to the earth for a time: others, the church of the believing Jews and that of the Gentiles ... "

Isaac Newton:  "... God gives power to his two Witnesses, and they prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days clothed in sackcloth. They are called the two Olive-trees, with relation to the two Olive-trees, which in Zechary's vision, chap. 4 stand on either side of the golden candlestick to supply the lamps with oil: and Olive-trees, according to the Apostle Paul, represent Churches, Rom. 11. .... They are also called the two candlesticks; which in this Prophecy signify Churches, the seven Churches of Asia being represented by seven candlesticks...."  - Observations Upon the Prophecies of Daniel, and the Apocalypse of St. John

Jamieson Faucett and Brown  "... I think the twofold Church, Jewish and Gentile, may be meant by the two candlesticks represented by the two witnesses ... "

If so, are we currently in this time of the two witnesses?

We are past the time of the two witnesses. Just look at the institutional church around the world. Europe it's been dead for half a century. U.S. is ecumenical even inviting imams to preach in churches. Churches are being converted into mosques all around the world, including the U.S.
Also consider the large percentage of secular Jews.

More importantly, through an ethnographic view (standing in the times of the author and looking through his eyes), look at John's "whole world"


http://beholdthebeast.com/johns_eight_beasts.htm
http://beholdthebeast.com/middle_east_maps.htm

John's whole world already has the mark of the beast!
http://beholdthebeast.com/the_beast.htm

(link) world
New Testament Greek Definition:
3625 oikoumene {oy-kou-men'-ay}
feminine participle present passive of 3611 (as noun, by
implication of 1093); TDNT - 5:157,674; n f
AV - world 14, earth 1; 15
1) the inhabited earth
1a) the portion of the earth inhabited by the Greeks, in
distinction from the lands of the barbarians
1b) the Roman empire, all the subjects of the empire
1c) the whole inhabited earth, the world
1d) the inhabitants of the earth, men
2) the universe, the world
http://beholdthebeast.com/the_beast.htm#world

 In other words, is Revelation 11 happening as we speak?

Has been being fulfilled throughout the Christian era. Just as virtually all Christians and Jews understand Old Testament prophecy was fulfilled. Steadily being fulfilled as the period that was written about came to pass.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=14.0

 

We, the two witnesses, are currently witnessing?
If so, how do we explain v. 5-7
Rev 11:5"And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them."

Where is this "power" to speak fire, and devour our enemies and that they be killed if they try to hurt us? Is this supposed to be happening now?
Where is this power to shut heaven and turn water to blood and smite the earth with plaques as often as we will?  Is this supposed to be happening now?

I'm not understanding these verses in the context of the two witnesses being the jews and christian believers.  When is all this supposed to be happening?

Thanks!

Through an ethnographic view, the vast majority of it is behind us.

[caracasmc]

Wow.. Really fascinating stuff!!  Thanks for the reply!

I didn't see a reply to the part about how to understand Rev 11:5-7.


What is this power to speak fire, and devour our enemies and that they be killed if they try to hurt us? How, when was this fulfilled?
What is this power to shut heaven and turn water to blood and smite the earth with plaques as often as we will?  How, when was this fulfilled?

[Peter]

(Post had disappeared. Restored from database on 12-19-14 at 2:30 PM.)

Wow.. Really fascinating stuff!! Thanks for the reply!

I didn't see a reply to the part about how to understand Rev 11:5-7.

What is this power to speak fire, and devour our enemies and that they be killed if they try to hurt us? How, when was this fulfilled?
What is this power to shut heaven and turn water to blood and smite the earth with plaques as often as we will? How, when was this fulfilled?

Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Straight off the cuff.
I put the verse in Google and the first site was quite interesting. It listed the verses in different versions, then off to the right some germane or possible related verses.
http://bible.cc/revelation/11-5.htm

Jeremiah 5:14 Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jer&c=5&v=14&t=KJV#14

Would seem a bit like the sword of the Spirit.
As for devouring, could it be that once the Word is given to someone, and they reject it, then they suffer the consequences?

Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

For openers, this simply says they have the power to do these things, so I don't think it necessarily calls for any fulfillment, literal or otherwise. Google

Exodus 7:17 Thus saith the LORD, In this thou shalt know that I [am] the LORD: behold, I will smite with the rod that [is] in mine hand upon the waters which [are] in the river, and they shall be turned to blood.
http://bible.cc/revelation/11-6.htm
The period is 1260 "days" or years. From 688 marking the exile of the two witnesses from the Holy Land to 1948.
However it took Islamization of Jerusalem until the early 19th century to completely desolate the place.

http://beholdthebeast.com/abomination_of_desolation.htm
In "A History of the Jews" Paul Johnson writes on page 321: "Between 1827 and 1839, largely through British efforts, the population of Jerusalem rose from 550 to 5,500 and in all Palestine it topped 10,000 - the real beginning of the Jewish return to the Promised Land. In 1838 Palmerston appointed the first western vice-consul in Jerusalem, W.T. Young, and told him "to afford protection to the Jews generally"

Can you imagine a city where in 70 AD a million Jews were killed, and in 135 AD another 750,000 were slaughtered, to only having a population of 550 by the beginning of the 1800s? Where were all the so-called Palestinians?

Even as late as 1867 Mark Twain described it thus: “ ...[a] desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds-a silent mournful expanse....A desolation is here that not even imagination can grace with the pomp of life and action....We never saw a human being on the whole route....There was hardly a tree or a shrub anywhere. Even the olive and the cactus, those fast friends of the worthless soil, had almost deserted the country.”
I'll revisit this later as I am behind on doing some PDFs. Perhaps resisting would like to weigh in.

[truthofthematter]

Is it possible to ask if there was an answer to this question? 

I was thinking that the prayers of the both Jews and Gentiles to God about their persecution throughout history causes the judgements listed in Revelation to come to be.   It seems the power of fire and withholding rain, is the power of prayer of the saints.  When either Jew or Gentile believer fall from the doctrine that God gave them, enemy gains power over them to hurt them.  When the saints both Jew and Gentile believers humbled themselves before God in prayer and turned from their abominations, God heard their cry and past judgement against their enemies. 

I could be off.  I am just trying to think about it.  The Jews are a witness to God.  Their scattering abroad and persecution is a witness of God's judgement.  No nation/people have ever been so hated and persecuted against.  It seems a witness to God.  They are blinded by God about the truth of Jesus but they do acknowledge the one true God.  Sure there are some who pollute God's word.  This is true for Gentile believer as much as a Jew.  I am just saying that they still are a witness of God to the world about the truth of God's word. 

Christian unbelievers are witnesses to God over its history.  The word of God's prophecy has been fulfilled too in them. 

Well, that is how I am seeing it right now.  Thanks for any input. 

[PeteWaldo]

Is it possible to ask if there was an answer to this question? 

I was thinking that the prayers of the both Jews and Gentiles to God about their persecution throughout history causes the judgements listed in Revelation to come to be.   It seems the power of fire and withholding rain, is the power of prayer of the saints.  When either Jew or Gentile believer fall from the doctrine that God gave them, enemy gains power over them to hurt them.

God sometimes uses His enemies to discipline His backslidden people. One has to wonder if this may be why Islam is taking over "post-Christian" Europe, where only something like 2% proclaim our faith.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/falling_away_apostasy.htm#apostasy_in_europe

When the saints both Jew and Gentile believers humbled themselves before God in prayer and turned from their abominations, God heard their cry and past judgement against their enemies. 

I could be off.  I am just trying to think about it.  The Jews are a witness to God.  Their scattering abroad and persecution is a witness of God's judgement.

As well as their restoration for the sake of YHWH's holy name, as prophesied:
http://www.zionismchristian.com/zionism_in_prophecy.htm

No nation/people have ever been so hated and persecuted against.  It seems a witness to God.  They are blinded by God about the truth of Jesus but they do acknowledge the one true God.

It's a shame more of those dispys that you mention don't recognize this. It would save them a lot of running and hiding from the Gospel. My increasingly wondering about the status of Jews in this Christian era, is what eventually inspired me to ask Him right out loud to show me, and two weeks later found myself in the middle of the chapter that explains it in The False Prophet.
I explore it a little detail at this link:
http://www.israelinbibleprophecy.com/spirit_of_slumber.htm

Sure there are some who pollute God's word.  This is true for Gentile believer as much as a Jew.  I am just saying that they still are a witness of God to the world about the truth of God's word. 

Christian unbelievers are witnesses to God over its history.  The word of God's prophecy has been fulfilled too in them. 

Well, that is how I am seeing it right now.  Thanks for any input.

This thread dates back to 2010. We discussed it not that long ago, in considerably more detail, in the Ellis Skolfield section at this link:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1336.0

Also, if you haven't read it, I highly recommend you read "The False Prophet" now, to see the content - that is scattered throughout the websites you found and scattered throughout this forum - arranged in a brick by brick empirical argument. For over 35 years our 87 year old, elder brother Ellis Skolfield, has written about the role of Islam in Bible prophecy. The book is free, fun and exciting to read.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_false_prophet.htm
A note about the author:
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_false_prophet.htm#ellis_skolfield

All of the websites you mention, and this forum, developed as a result of our initial introduction to the traditional historicist approach to Bible prophecy, through Ellis Skolfield's study.
That is, as a result, we strayed back onto the reservation that the available evidence suggests the church was on for its first 1800 years, that the rest of the church then strayed off of over the last 200 years. It would seem just as prophesied:

2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4  And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Just look at what the 19th century brought the church:
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/traditional_framework.htm#cults