Author Topic: Demons in the Church - by E. H. Skolfield (free)  (Read 24935 times)

caracasmc

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Demons in the Church - by E. H. Skolfield (free)
« on: April 24, 2010, 07:02:13 PM »
Any online versions available to read?  What's it about?  I'd love to read it but can't get it where I live overseas.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2011, 05:09:43 PM by Peter »

Peter

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Demons in the Church - by E. H. Skolfield
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2011, 02:36:09 PM »
Yes available at the following link, as of today.
DEMONS IN THE CHURCH - by E. H. Skolfield
http://www.israelinbibleprophecy.com/demons_in_the_church.htm

I am working on getting a PDF of Sunset of the Western Church which was the book that Demons was a sequel to.

annazakiya

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Re: Demons in the Church - by E. H. Skolfield
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2011, 08:01:11 PM »
Thanks, I ended up reading it almost completely in one sitting last night!

Very interesting, and actually very relevant to this particular forum. The book is about the three ordinances of (1) water baptism and (2) communion, but in particular it focuses on (3) the ordinance of women remaining silent in church and covering their heads whilst praying or prophesying.

Mr Skolfield has a valid biblical argument that the wife is a "type" of the church (church being the bride of Christ the bridegroom), and thus observing the head covering shows to the spiritual realm the state of the church. He even discusses real life examples where Christian women who were having spiritual problems began to cover their heads during prayer (even at home in private) - and began noticing demons in their houses; even hearing screams - and were then able to gain release from spiritual bondage as they observed the head covering.

The book really does make a good case and point. As I said one thing that occurred to me is the relevance of the topic to Islam. We know that for everything God does Satan has a pretty good counterfeit. Thus we could almost look backwards to prove the relevance of the Christian head covering by noticing that headcovering of women is one of the most fundamental and universal concepts of Islam (and the single most obvious sign of Islam to the natural world that there is). Such a dominant counterfeit could indicate the importance of God's original (and true) ordinance.

Peter

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Re: Demons in the Church - by E. H. Skolfield
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2011, 03:59:32 PM »
Thanks, I ended up reading it almost completely in one sitting last night!

Sorry it's still a little rough around the edges. The PDF didn't copy and paste without a lot of the characters changing, so it wasn't too complete last night. I'm about half-way through the second schmoozing now.

It is pretty hard to make an argument against head coverings for women, in light of the first 1950 years of universal practice of head-covering in the church, let alone the examples of demonic influence cited in the book.

A lot of head coverings on the women at this Billy Graham tent revival. Particularly on the older women. This was the period when the great falling away had just begun.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njqj_e7ZomY

I sure remember all the women wearing head coverings at the church I attended as a child. Mostly pillbox kinds of shapes or like a disk with feathers around the edge, both styles with mesh veils attached.

Not surprisingly with the beginning of the falling away of the church through bible ignorance and doctrines avoiding the preaching of repentance, our once-great nation divorced herself from God, through the Everson decision in 1947 and it's spurious "separation of church and state", followed by the McCollum decision in 1948 that kicked God out of our schools.

caracasmc

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Re: Demons in the Church - by E. H. Skolfield (free)
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2012, 07:51:55 PM »
So  after hearing so many great things about this book, I was thrilled to find it available online.  I began reading it last night and finished it up today.  I have to say, I really respect Ellis and his love for the Lord and for Truth.  I agree with a lot of what he says and admire his knowledge of scripture.  Having said all that, the woman's head covering is just a hard pill to swallow.  Not because it would be inconvenient to believe it.  I have always prayed that I would be able to follow and walk in the Lord's truth despite how inconvenient, unpopular, etc, that it might be.  So, that is not my problem.  It is just hard for me to really believe the need for such a thing when one actually looks and understands the whole of scripture, the church and the christian life.  I am in no way saying that I am right and he is wrong.  But neither can I blindly embrace this practice simply because he says it's the truth.  I will try to, as briefly as possible, point out my initial reservations with this teaching.

1. Ellis comes across as though his interpretation of scripture is the truth and everyone else's is wrong.  This is a dangerous mentality.  People who claim to "just do what the bible says", are in reality simply doing what they "believe" the bible says.  All scripture requires interpretation and thus the millions of doctrinal and theological differences.   The desire to interpret scripture exactly as God intended it to be interpreted is something that goes back as far as the ancient Rabbis.  Their whole purpose was to fulfill God's Law as they felt He intended it to be fulfilled.  Obviously, how one interprets a certain passage will differ from how another interprets it and naturally you get factions or differences.  A rabbis' interpretation of scripture was known as his "yoke".  To take a Rabbis' "yoke" upon you was to follow his particular interpretation of the scriptures and live it out accordingly.  Jesus told us to come to him for his "yoke was easy and his burden was light".  Jesus came to lessen the burden of the law and external manifestations that supposedly brought one closer to God.  Under the New Covenant in Christ, the focus has shifted from the external to the internal.  It's the heart that God looks at.  He took the heart of stone and gave us a heart of flesh.  Is Ellis truly suggesting that without a literal woman's head covering, we are doomed to deception, exposed to the enemy, and destined for satanic domination?  What happened to the power of the Cross?  The blood?  The Name of Jesus? 

I want to be clear that I am not suggesting that there is no absolute truth in the scriptures and that each person's interpretation make it so.  That's not what I'm saying at all.  The Word of God is absolutely true from beginning to end.  The problem is that it can be interpreted incorrectly and misapplied and thus create doctrines that are defended as "truth" but not necessarily so.  That is my point. 

2.  There is no biblical support that failing to accomplish one of the three ordinances can lead one into harm.  We agree that baptism is biblical and good.  That it should be done.  Absolutely.  But there is no support that if one fails to be baptized they are doomed in some way.  One or two testimonies of people supposedly suffering prior to being baptized does not a biblical truth make.  I agree with Ellis' teaching on the importance and power of baptism and that it should be done right away rather than after months of "baptism bible classes".  That idea has always seemed so ridiculous to me.  But again, if one isn't baptized right away or "properly" as Ellis would define it, there is no support, either biblically or practically that one will suffer untold harm and attack.  Along the same lines, neither is there support that failing to partake of communion invites harm and disaster.  What we have in the passages regarding communion is a correction for abuse.  The believers were being selfish, not waiting for other believers to arrive before scarfing down all the food, leaving nothing for the poorer believers arriving late.  On top of this, believers were getting drunk at the gatherings!  It is this evil, selfish, and ungodly behavior that Paul is confronting and that is making many among them sick and weak.  There is no evidence to support the idea that if the Supper wasn't observed at all, they would be attacked and harmed in some way.  It was their ungodly behavior towards others and their drunkenness and irreverence that appears to be in view.  To partake of the meal in a "worthy manner" means that they would wait for all to arrive, allow everyone to partake in the meal together, and refrain from inappropriate conduct such as drunkenness.

So, my point is simply that there is no evidence that if one fails to apply one of these ordinances altogether, one will be under attack. So, why would one conclude that a woman failing to cover her head would invite harmful demonic attacks?  It doesn't pass the reality test OR the biblical test in my opinion.

3.  Ellis goes to great detail to "expose" and critique the charismatics practicing their false signs and wonders, etc.  Part of his argument is that people can be duped into believing something works, ie faith healing, when in actuality it is their own emotional or psychological vulnerability, or worse yet, demonic activity creating the supposed miracle.  In other words, people can be duped into believing they received a miracle simply by psychology.  Many of these false prophets work the crowd and are experts at creating environments were people are almost in a trance like state in order to "receive".  My point regarding this is that by Ellis' own admission, people can be duped into believing something works by their own minds or emotions.  So how is it not possible that all or some of the testimonies he shared about women covering their heads and then experiencing various changes were not simply due to the fact that these people put their faith in something, wanting it to work and so they made it work?  If we can be duped one way, why not the other as well?  We know for a fact that when someone wants to believe something and puts their faith in it, many times they will make it work simply by their faith.  Look at diet pills or supplements that people stand by as having helped them lose 100 lbs only to find out that the supplement is a worthless sales gimmick....but they still lost weight!  How?  Faith is a powerful thing, even when it's misguided.  Tithing is another example.  Tithing is an old covenant practice not commanded or applicable for NT believers.  However, millions of tithers swear up and down that once they began tithing all their finances turned around.  But you can find a million others who tithed and never saw any difference at all.  So who is right?  Given the fact that tithing is not applicable for NT believers and is law based living, trusting in a work for blessing rather than in Christ though whom all blessing has been given to us, it would appear that some people's faith in tithing  is so strong that it works for them despite not being biblical.  My question is could the same principle be at work regarding the head covering?

4. Scripture seems to be clear that the church will endure massive deception no matter what.  Many will fall away from the faith, false prophets will come, false teaching will invade the church, people will grow cold, and on and on.  This has nothing to do with women covering or not covering their heads but rather it is God's prophetic order.  Only a relatively small number of believers will remain faithful to him.  Few are chosen.  Etc.  Deception in the church (as a phenomenon) is unavoidable.  Head coverings will not stop this from happening.

5. Paul seems to already give us clear and specific details as to how to fight the enemy and do spiritual warfare.  He makes no mention of head coverings in this context.  He instead lays out what he calls "putting on the whole armor of God".  His purpose for this is stated clearly, "that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil".  Paul makes it clear that in order to stand against the attacks of the devil, we only need to put on the whole armor of God.  Nothing is mentioned about head coverings.  He then defines the armor of God and still no mention of head coverings.  Interestingly, Paul does in fact mention the head and how to protect it against the enemy.  It is not by a woman wearing a head covering but rather by all believers wearing the helmet of salvation.  All of the "armor" appears to be spiritual analogies to different truths of the faith.  The word, the spirit, righteousness, salvation, faith, etc.  Paul is confident that when a believer applies these spiritual truths and remains in prayer, that they will be perfectly suited against the attacks of the enemy. 

6. It fails the reality test.  There are many believers around the world, who bare fruit unto God, walk in righteousness and truth, are surrendered to him fully, and glorify the Lord Jesus Christ above all, that do not wear head coverings.  There are many healthy, vibrant churches, walking in truth, glorifying the Lord Jesus that do not practice wearing head coverings.  If the head covering is the "golden key" and the secret to avoiding deception and demonic attack, then how is it that many believers get by just fine without it?  And why is it that some women who cover their heads, still struggle with different attacks, temptations, tempers, unforgiveness, or whatever?  It seems that there is no definitive pattern.  Some are fine without it, some are not fine with it. 

7.  I do not agree with Ellis' interpretation of "a woman should learn in silence".  He teaches that women should be silent in the assemblies.  Really?  Are we not all, male and female, priests unto God?  Did Christ not purchase us all and make us ALL ministers and functioning priests?  This is the fundamental doctrine of the "priesthood of all believers".  Something no legitimate scholar argues.  If we are all ministers and capable of sharing Christ with our brothers and sisters, then how can we accept that woman are completely shut out of participating in meetings? 

I believe there is a better explanation of 1 Timothy 2.  Here is an explanation:

Paul urges prayers for peaceful lives. Recorded in Acts 19:24-41 is Paul's violent conflict with Demetrius, a silver craftsmen making shrines to Diana and the city-wide riot that followed. Paul probably has this specific episode in mind when he urges church members at Ephesus to offer "prayers...that we may live peaceful and quiet lives..." 1Tim 2:1-2. The word he uses for peaceful, (heesuchion from hesuchios, Strong's 2272), is the male form of the word and it translates as "peaceful". The feminine form of the same word (hesuchia, hay-soo-khee'-ah, 2271); is used twice in 1 Tim. 2:11-12 describing the atmosphere in which a woman should learn and what Paul feels should be a woman's attitude. The same word used in the same chapter should have the same translation, "peaceful"—a peaceful learning atmosphere—the same atmosphere Paul urges them to pray for so that they might have undisturbed lives! Instead of being translated as "peaceful" as it is in the male form, the female form of the same word was translated as "silence". There are many clues in the second chapter of 1Timothy that an angry dispute has occurred in church, and peacefulness is the exact attribute that Paul advocates for both women and men.

So in 1 Tim 2: 11 when Paul uses the female form of the same word, he is requesting a peaceful atmosphere free of anger and disputing.

"Paul does not command the women not to teach. He employs the present active indicative for "allow." The present tense in Greek principally denotes continuous present action. It can refer to present necessity and obligation and to potential action. Greek has its own imperative mood which is not here employed. Commands can also be phrased in the aorist or the future indicative. Neither of these tenses is here used. Nor does Paul use the perfect tense to denote an action in the past which has changed the state of affairs. Paul is saying: 'I am not presently allowing a woman to teach.'" Beyond the Curse, Aida Besancon Spencer, Pg. 84-85.

So, a fuller and more appropriate/literal translation would read something like this:  ""A wife, in peacefulness, I let learn in all obedience (not causing angry disputes), but to teach (a) wife I am not allowing (present indicative tense—he is not presently allowing a wife to teach), not even to dominate (a) husband, but to be in peacefulness.""

The historical context shows that Paul was addressing a very specific problem of dominating women who were causing problems in the church.  This was most likely caused by the false religion of Ephesus.  They worshiped Diana, long story short, it was taught that women are superior to men.  Paul is bringing correction to a specific false teaching and setting some guidelines to restore church order and peace.  This also meshes perfectly with the next few verses about Adam being formed first and then the woman.  Also, that Eve was the one deceived, not Adam.  What is Paul doing?  He's correcting the false teaching that women are superior.  So, the whole passage is about a specific false teaching happening there at that time and Paul is giving specific instructions for them at that time as well. 

So Ellis' claim that "a woman should not speak or teach in the church", based on these verses appears to be completely false bringing me back to my first point.  Just because he says it's the truth, doesn't make it so.  It's his interpretation and since he is fallible, maybe his interpretation is incorrect.  If he is incorrect regarding this issue, could he be incorrect regarding the head covering issue as well?  It's certainly possible and I believe it to be so.

8.  The NT names by name several important women who Paul considered co-workers in Christ Jesus.  To name a few: Priscilla, Phoebe, Junia, Nympha, etc.  Some of these women were considered apostles (ie, Junia), and certainly capable of preaching the gospel and teaching the churches.  There seems to be sufficient evidence of women teachers, co-workers in the early church that would seemingly refute Ellis' interpretation of 1 Tim 2. 

9. Just as another practical observation.  Paul seems to suggest that equal to the woman covering her head is the man NOT covering his head.  So, is it sinful for men to wear hats?  If I wear a baseball cap am I now open to demonic attack and deception because I "covered my head"?  I think most people would say of course not.  So how could we promote the female side of the coin but yet deny the male side?  Paul seems to place them both on equal ground.  If wearing a cap or hat causes me no spiritual harm, then it would stand to reason that a woman not wearing a covering would also not cause any spiritual harm.

10.  Finally, I think it is a stretch for Ellis to claim that the consequences of failing to uphold this practice are delusion, deception and demonic attack.  Ellis seems to go as far as to suggest that the reason the church is in such deception today is because of neglecting this sole practice.  However, the passage itself reveals nothing, nor even hints at evidence of harmful consequences befalling someone if they fail to wear the head covering.  There are no statements such as "if you fail to do this you will suffer x, y, and z".  Or, "be careful to observe all these things so that you do not suffer x, y, z", etc.  When speaking about the Lord's Supper, Paul clearly states that their improper behavior in regard to the Supper was causing them physical harm.   There is no such warning or implication in the passage on head covering. 

These are just some reservations and doubts I have about this doctrine/practice of the head covering.   This is in no way intended to be an "I'm right, you're wrong" post.  These are simply my initial reservations and I welcome feedback and correction as we pursue truth together.  God bless!

Peter

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Re: Demons in the Church - by E. H. Skolfield (free)
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2012, 03:21:48 AM »
So  after hearing so many great things about this book, I was thrilled to find it available online.  I began reading it last night and finished it up today.  I have to say, I really respect Ellis and his love for the Lord and for Truth.  I agree with a lot of what he says and admire his knowledge of scripture.  Having said all that, the woman's head covering is just a hard pill to swallow.  Not because it would be inconvenient to believe it.  I have always prayed that I would be able to follow and walk in the Lord's truth despite how inconvenient, unpopular, etc, that it might be.  So, that is not my problem.  It is just hard for me to really believe the need for such a thing when one actually looks and understands the whole of scripture, the church and the christian life.  I am in no way saying that I am right and he is wrong.  But neither can I blindly embrace this practice simply because he says it's the truth.  I will try to, as briefly as possible, point out my initial reservations with this teaching.

1. Ellis comes across as though his interpretation of scripture is the truth and everyone else's is wrong.  This is a dangerous mentality.

Was he supposed to preface every sentence with "In my opinion..." or "I believe"? He's never claimed God granted him a franchise on infallible doctrine. Did you Google the subject before making accusations against Ellis, as if he is the only one that teaches this?

head coverings in church

http://www.biblicalresearchreports.com/headcoveringmyths.php
http://www.kingshouse.org/headcovering.htm

Regarding the examples that you want to dismiss of women recognizing personal benefit I quickly perused this and saw she had experience in a few churches. I think if you read it you might get a little more insight.
http://orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/headcoverings.aspx

As per the info in my prior post, can you explain why the ordinance of head covering was observed over the first 1950 years of church history, but to observe the same ordinance today would be to "blindly embrace this practice"?

The women in the Presbyterian church I attended in the 1950s still wore head coverings, including my mom. Little feathery disk thing with an almost transparent veil on the front of it. Pill box styles were popular too. I would say head coverings were uniformly worn by the older women in that church, like my grandmother and her peers, that were born in the 19th century.

Personally, when it comes to these sorts of matters, I do everything in my power to err on the safe side - the conservative side. For example, in this case there are 2 options, to wear a head covering or not to wear a head covering.

1Cr 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with [her] head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

1. could wearing a head covering be wrong?
2. could not wearing a head covering be wrong?

Unless you answer that you believe there is a better chance that wearing a head covering could be wrong, than not wearing one, then which choice would reflect greater obedience to God? Were all the women over those 19+ centuries wrong, and it wasn't until the second half of the 20th century that women became enlightened?

Set up the same scenario with women talking in church, not that it isn't the accidental practice in virtually every church, ever since "church" has been turned into a guy yakking at the congregation from a pulpit until it's time to go home.

Same with women exercising authority over men from the pulpit. Again mostly last half century.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordination_of_women#Christianity
Now look at what a mess the Episcopal church is, and female Pentecostal preachers and what they call "tongues". Regarding unclean spirits in "church" here's a personal experience I had in a "tongue" talking Pentecostal church.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/man_of_sin_revealed.htm

The assistant female pastor in an Episcopal Church I attended before I was saved was all for the ordination of Gene Robinson, a homosexual. It was a blessing in disguise because I left that church the Sunday after the ECUSA approved that ordination and was born again a few months later. I wasn't alone since it looks like the Episcopal Church U.S. is dying.

We probably both agree that we are not saved through the flesh, and I think that if a woman is (other than willfully) ignorant to the scriptures and/or tradition regarding head coverings, she may not be transgressing.

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression.

But for women that believe they should, more likely than not, be wearing a head covering, then how would not wearing one not be disobedient?

About the same time as women abandoned head coverings and started being ordained into authority over men, Billy Graham popularized the "sinners prayer" that wound up taking the place of the doctrine of repentance, that also helped take the institutional "church" to where it is today. I believe the mid-20th century marked the beginning of the apostasy mentioned in Thessalonians.

Elder brother Ellis has scoured the scriptures and served the Lord full-time for most of his 80+ years.

It wouldn't surprise me that if you did wear a head covering you would get harassed by other women like those examples in Ellis' book. What might that tell you? Now I don't intend for this to insult our brethren overseas that are being slaughtered for the witness of Jesus, I included it because of the specific reference to living Godly.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will  live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

annazakiya

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Re: Demons in the Church - by E. H. Skolfield (free)
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2012, 04:46:01 AM »
But neither can I blindly embrace this practice simply because he says it's the truth.
The thing is, it isn't Ellis who says its the truth, it is the Bible that says to practice headcovering.


 
People who claim to "just do what the bible says", are in reality simply doing what they "believe" the bible says.  All scripture requires interpretation and thus the millions of doctrinal and theological differences.   The desire to interpret scripture exactly as God intended it to be interpreted is something that goes back as far as the ancient Rabbis.  Their whole purpose was to fulfill God's Law as they felt He intended it to be fulfilled.  Obviously, how one interprets a certain passage will differ from how another interprets it and naturally you get factions or differences.
I agree with this, but clearly there is ONE correct interpretation, and if you do have the correct interpretation because through God's grace the Holy Spirit gave you the understanding, then yes it is the truth, and everyone else IS wrong.


I believe too that Jesus looks at a person's heart and is NOT going to condemn you for something you did or didn't do out of ignorance. BUT, that is not what Ellis is saying at all; as the book clearly emphasises, headcovering is "because of the angels".


We know for a fact that when someone wants to believe something and puts their faith in it, many times they will make it work simply by their faith.  Look at diet pills or supplements that people stand by as having helped them lose 100 lbs only to find out that the supplement is a worthless sales gimmick....but they still lost weight!  How? 
This 'argument' is null and void and has nothing to do with headcovering. The ONLY way to lose weight is to use more energy than you intake. If someone unknowingly took a placebo diet pill and lost weight, then either their activity was higher than normal, their energy intake less than normal, or both.


Head coverings will not stop this from happening.
It is too late, it already happened.


9. Just as another practical observation.  Paul seems to suggest that equal to the woman covering her head is the man NOT covering his head.  So, is it sinful for men to wear hats?  If I wear a baseball cap am I now open to demonic attack and deception because I "covered my head"?  I think most people would say of course not. 
I disagree. People remove their hats just to eat at the table don't they? Isn't prayer more important? Of course it is of equal weighting with women headcovering. "Most people" in my country would say we are crazy for believing in this God "nonsense" - does that make them right? Or "most people" in Saudi Arabia pray to Satan 5 times a day - does that make them right? Jesus said it was a narrow path.


If wearing a cap or hat causes me no spiritual harm
How do you know it doesn't? Maybe it allowed you to become deceived into believing headcoverings aren't important?


Finally, I believe that women are much more susceptible to demonic influence than men. When satan works through deception, its just that - you have NO IDEA you are being deceived. If one believes they are cruising along in their faith never hindered by demonic attack, then chances are there is something very wrong. On the flipside, if a woman starts covering her head and begins to experience spiritual attack that she never felt before, then it probably means satan is VERY upset about it.


If it is for our own protection then isn't it safer for the individual person to do it than not?


Thanks for the discussion anyway.

Peter

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Re: Demons in the Church - by E. H. Skolfield (free)
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2012, 08:55:20 AM »
6. It fails the reality test.  There are many believers around the world, who bare fruit unto God, walk in righteousness and truth, ........

Then why is it there is a thousand to one chance that the doctrine of the church you attend, necessarily precludes the flock from even considering that Muhammad could be the false prophet of the book of Revelation, without running afoul of church doctrine?

(I only allowed the one in a thousand for churches that have absolutely no doctrine whatsoever that is related to the book of Revelation)

....... are surrendered to him fully, and glorify the Lord Jesus Christ above all, that do not wear head coverings.

caracasmc

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Re: Demons in the Church - by E. H. Skolfield (free)
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2012, 05:26:58 PM »
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Was he supposed to preface every sentence with "In my opinion..." or "I believe"? He's never claimed God granted him a franchise on infallible doctrine. Did you Google the subject before making accusations against Ellis, as if he is the only one that teaches this?

I think you are missing the point I was making.  I'm not suggesting Ellis is deliberately an arrogant person when it comes to his interpretation of scripture.  I'm simply saying that Ellis makes statements in the book such as, "This book is about truth", but what he calls truth is not necessarily God's truth, but rather his interpretation of it.  The 1 Timothy 2 verses are a perfect example.  Ellis talks about just "doing" what God's word says, period.  But yet I tried to show that a proper understanding of 1 Tim 2 shows that it was not about women being SILENT in church for ALL TIME.  It was about women being peaceable and it was in reference to a specific group, for a specific time, regarding a specific problem.  It wasn't meant as a law for all believers for all time.  The original Greek bears this out as I tried to show. 

So the point is that Ellis tells us that ALL women should remain SILENT in gatherings FOREVER because it's the TRUTH since it says so in God's Word.  However, this is in fact not the truth but a misinterpretation of God's Word.  So it puts an unnecessary law upon believers and worsens the burden of the law that Jesus came to lift and free us from.  If he could be so wrong about women participating in gatherings, could he not be wrong in his interpretation of head coverings?


Quote
As per the info in my prior post, can you explain why the ordinance of head covering was observed over the first 1950 years of church history, but to observe the same ordinance today would be to "blindly embrace this practice"?

Brother, the church has done A LOT of things wrong for hundreds of years.  Just because something has been done for a long time doesn't make it right.  Look at the institutional church structure.  Since the 4th century the church has had hierarchical leadership structure (which Jesus condemned), turned the Lord's Supper into a ritual of a wafer and thimble of juice,  made elders and deacons some sort of title and official position instead of simply older, mature believers who serve the body.  I could go on and on.  There have been literally limitless rituals, laws, practices, etc that the Church has maintained for centuries that are based in man rather than the truth of God's word.  I fail to see how this proves anything.  I'm not saying it's insignificant.  Just that it doesn't necessarily make it right.

And when it comes to women who used to cover their heads, I actually find it quite humorous.  Those little hats were more about fashion than about some sort of understanding of submission.  The whole point of the whole covering in the context of Paul's writing was to illustrate God's order.  I was born and raised in the Evangelical church.  I'm a second generation "minister".  I can trace my family's ministry back to the early 1900's.  I have never heard a sister, at least in my experience, explain her little Sunday "hat" as being a sign of submission to her husband and an illustration of God's perfect order!  It was a Sunday morning fashion accessory more than anything.

The other thing that I remember is that many of those old ladies with their little hats were some of the meanest and most bitter women you'd ever meet! Lol.  That head covering sure didn't make them wonderful Godly ladies.  Certainly, not all were like this.  But many were. 

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Personally, when it comes to these sorts of matters, I do everything in my power to err on the safe side - the conservative side. For example, in this case there are 2 options, to wear a head covering or not to wear a head covering.

1Cr 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with [her] head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

1. could wearing a head covering be wrong?
2. could not wearing a head covering be wrong?

Unless you answer that you believe there is a better chance that wearing a head covering could be wrong, than not wearing one, then which choice would reflect greater obedience to God? Were all the women over those 19+ centuries wrong, and it wasn't until the second half of the 20th century that women became enlightened?

This logic misses the point of what I'm suggesting.  To me it's not about whether it's right or wrong to wear a head covering.  Ignoring all factors and simply reading the verse as is, I would say, "sure a woman should wear a head covering". In the same way I would read 1 Tim 2 and say, "sure, a woman should keep quiet in gatherings".  But the problem is that this is not a correct interpretation so I would be wrong in applying the verse that way.  So again, my "argument" (really more of a doubt than an argument) is that the whole premise of the head covering might be wrong and is potentially being misapplied and misinterpreted.  To me, it's not about whether a woman wearing the head covering is right or wrong, but whether that is even the point of the passage and if it's correct to interpret it as applicable for all believers for all time. 

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About the same time as women abandoned head coverings and started being ordained into authority over men, Billy Graham popularized the "sinners prayer" that wound up taking the place of the doctrine of repentance, that also helped take the institutional "church" to where it is today. I believe the mid-20th century marked the beginning of the apostasy mentioned in Thessalonians.


I think this proves just as easily that it was the watering down of the Gospel message of salvation and repentance that has brought us to where we are more so than head coverings.  There are too many heresies and false teachings to fully discuss here that have played part in what has happened to the American church, but are you seriously trying to say that all of this is because of head coverings?  I find that absurd especially since scripture prophetically tells us that "many will fall away" anyway.  Not because they stop wearing head coverings, but because their hearts grow cold.  Ellis seems to be teaching that the head covering is the REASON that all of this is happening and that by obeying this practice we can AVOID it.  I think it makes more sense to say that IF the head covering really is a scriptural mandate for all believers for all time, then the great apostasy and deception has caused believers to stop obeying it rather than the other way around which is what Ellis seems to be advocating.  Rather than not wearing head coverings causing the deception, doesn't it make more sense that the deception caused the not wearing of the head coverings?  If so, then how is the head covering a protection from deception if people were deceived in the first place to stop wearing them?  Seems backwards to me.  There is simply no scriptural support to suggest head coverings provide some sort of spiritual protection or that not covering the head exposes one to spiritual harm.

By the way...I am a man, just so you know.

caracasmc

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Re: Demons in the Church - by E. H. Skolfield (free)
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2012, 06:00:52 PM »
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The thing is, it isn't Ellis who says its the truth, it is the Bible that says to practice headcovering.
Umm, this is exactly the point I was making.  No it's not.  It's your interpretation that says it is so.  Just as 1 Tim 2 does NOT say that woman should be "silent", it is possible that the head covering is NOT a command for all Christians for all time. but is simply being misinterpreted and misapplied.

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I agree with this, but clearly there is ONE correct interpretation, and if you do have the correct interpretation because through God's grace the Holy Spirit gave you the understanding, then yes it is the truth, and everyone else IS wrong.
 

I don't agree that just because the Holy Spirit convicts YOU of a certain "truth" that it makes everyone else "wrong".  That is self righteous attitude that Paul certainly does not advocate in passages such as Romans 14 or 1 Corinthians 8.  His attitude is one of respecting what the spirit reveals to our brothers and sisters even if we do not share the same conviction.  What is ok for you may be a sin to your brother or sister in Christ.  Neither should judge the other.  Those are Pauls instructions regarding such matters.


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This 'argument' is null and void and has nothing to do with headcovering. The ONLY way to lose weight is to use more energy than you intake. If someone unknowingly took a placebo diet pill and lost weight, then either their activity was higher than normal, their energy intake less than normal, or both.

I think you missed the point I was making here.  The point was that there is enormous power in faith.  When a person believes something works, they can convince themselves that it works even if it is proven to be false.  Like tithing for example.  Many people swear that tithing is a requirement and that they can prove it because once they started tithing their finances improved.  That's their proof.  My point is that whether their finances improved or not makes no difference, tithing is not required for believers today.  So, why does it supposedly "work" for some people?  I would suggest that God honors their faith and their giving despite following an Old Testament Law that places faith in their work (tithing) rather than in God alone.  So I was simply suggesting that positive results don't necessarily make head covering true. 


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9. Just as another practical observation.  Paul seems to suggest that equal to the woman covering her head is the man NOT covering his head.  So, is it sinful for men to wear hats?  If I wear a baseball cap am I now open to demonic attack and deception because I "covered my head"?  I think most people would say of course not. 
I disagree. People remove their hats just to eat at the table don't they? Isn't prayer more important? Of course it is of equal weighting with women headcovering. "Most people" in my country would say we are crazy for believing in this God "nonsense" - does that make them right? Or "most people" in Saudi Arabia pray to Satan 5 times a day - does that make them right? Jesus said it was a narrow path.

I'm not sure I understand your counter argument.  I agree that just because someone does or says something doesn't make it true.  I have prayed many times with a baseball cap on and have full confidence that God hears me and answers me.  Those times of prayer were just as productive and special to me as any other time.  And in fact, in recent years God has opened my eyes to many false things I was believing previously from my childhood and has set me free from them.  So again, if it doesn't hold true one way, why would it the other way. 


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If wearing a cap or hat causes me no spiritual harm
How do you know it doesn't? Maybe it allowed you to become deceived into believing headcoverings aren't important?

I suppose I simply trust in the cross of the Lord Jesus and rely on his Spirit to lead me into all truth (which is Him).


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Finally, I believe that women are much more susceptible to demonic influence than men. When satan works through deception, its just that - you have NO IDEA you are being deceived. If one believes they are cruising along in their faith never hindered by demonic attack, then chances are there is something very wrong. On the flipside, if a woman starts covering her head and begins to experience spiritual attack that she never felt before, then it probably means satan is VERY upset about it.

Maybe Satan's attacks have nothing to do with the head covering but with simply advancing the Gospel of the Kingdom and the fact that Christ said that ALL who profess him would suffer persecution.   Just a thought.

Thank you for your reply and for your thoughts.  God bless!

caracasmc

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Re: Demons in the Church - by E. H. Skolfield (free)
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2012, 06:17:44 PM »
6. It fails the reality test.  There are many believers around the world, who bare fruit unto God, walk in righteousness and truth, ........

Then why is it there is a thousand to one chance that the doctrine of the church you attend, necessarily precludes the flock from even considering that Muhammad could be the false prophet of the book of Revelation, without running afoul of church doctrine?

(I only allowed the one in a thousand for churches that have absolutely no doctrine whatsoever that is related to the book of Revelation)

....... are surrendered to him fully, and glorify the Lord Jesus Christ above all, that do not wear head coverings.

Brother, a person's eschatology means absolutely nothing in relation to their fruit, godliness, etc.  All of us, you included, believe things about the bible that are most likely wrong.  That doesn't make us evil, fruitless, godless heathens.  Many people love the Lord, serve him to the best of their ability, produce the fruit of the spirit (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness and self control) and bear witness to Christ, and yet do not practice head coverings.  That is just a fact brother.  If you want to believe that the only "good" believers are those who practice head covering, then that is your prerogative.  But you would be alienating your brothers and sisters over doctrinal practice (denominationalism) and doing a great disservice to not only Paul's teachings but the whole of scripture as well. 

There will be millions of believers in heaven who didn't have perfect doctrine or theology but yet trusted in the Lord Jesus and his work on the cross for their salvation by faith through grace.   That is enough.

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Re: Demons in the Church - by E. H. Skolfield (free)
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2012, 06:30:45 PM »
I think this proves just as easily that it was the watering down of the Gospel message of salvation and repentance that has brought us to where we are more so than head coverings.  There are too many heresies and false teachings to fully discuss here that have played part in what has happened to the American church, but are you seriously trying to say that all of this is because of head coverings?

And you concluded that I was "...seriously trying to say that all of this is because of head coverings?" based on what I wrote previously in this thread, let alone elsewhere?

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Re: Demons in the Church - by E. H. Skolfield (free)
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2012, 06:46:37 PM »
Brother, a person's eschatology means absolutely nothing in relation to their fruit, godliness, etc.

Not an uncommon suggestion for futurists and preterists that have been shown the difficulty of what they have been taught. But is truth really irrelevant? What about adolescents that pop into church once a week, that live of the world the rest of the week, that are waiting for their parents to get 'raptured" so they can then know they will have seven years after that to knuckle down and repent? I entertained that view when I was in my 40s.


caracasmc

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Re: Demons in the Church - by E. H. Skolfield (free)
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2012, 06:50:04 PM »
I think this proves just as easily that it was the watering down of the Gospel message of salvation and repentance that has brought us to where we are more so than head coverings.  There are too many heresies and false teachings to fully discuss here that have played part in what has happened to the American church, but are you seriously trying to say that all of this is because of head coverings?

And you concluded that I was "...seriously trying to say that all of this is because of head coverings?" based on what I wrote previously in this thread, let alone elsewhere?

Fair enough.  Maybe it's not what you are suggesting but its seems to be what Ellis is suggesting in his book.  He says the reason the Church is so deceived is because women are covering their heads.  Hmmm..really?

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Re: Demons in the Church - by E. H. Skolfield (free)
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2012, 06:53:08 PM »
I think this proves just as easily that it was the watering down of the Gospel message of salvation and repentance that has brought us to where we are more so than head coverings.  There are too many heresies and false teachings to fully discuss here that have played part in what has happened to the American church, but are you seriously trying to say that all of this is because of head coverings?

And you concluded that I was "...seriously trying to say that all of this is because of head coverings?" based on what I wrote previously in this thread, let alone elsewhere?

Fair enough.  Maybe it's not what you are suggesting but its seems to be what Ellis is suggesting in his book.  He says the reason the Church is so deceived is because women are covering their heads.  Hmmm..really?

So then you aren't aware of Ellis' book "The False Prophet"?

caracasmc

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Re: Demons in the Church - by E. H. Skolfield (free)
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2012, 06:57:03 PM »
Brother, a person's eschatology means absolutely nothing in relation to their fruit, godliness, etc.

Not an uncommon suggestion for futurists and preterists that have been shown the difficulty of what they have been taught. But is truth really irrelevant? What about adolescents that pop into church once a week, that live of the world the rest of the week, that are waiting for their parents to get 'raptured" so they can then know they will have seven years after that to knuckle down and repent? I entertained that view when I was in my 40s.

Well first of all I do not hold to those views myself so I can't be categorized as such.  But even still, I stand by that statement.  Your "interpretation" of end time events and every little type and symbol means nothing in regards to your position in Christ.  You are either in Christ or not.  Eschatology need not apply.  God sees us through the righteousness of his Son Jesus Christ, not by our eschatological correctness/incorrectness.  I'm actually shocked to see you suggesting such a thing. 

And just so you know.  You do not have it all figured out brother.  There are things you believe about the bible that when you stand before our Lord God you will realize were wrong.  You will be thanking your lucky stars that God's acceptance of His children is not based on their wisdom or understanding of end time events, but rather on His love and mercy and the unbreakable power of of Christ's blood to redeem and sanctify us before the Father. 

caracasmc

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Re: Demons in the Church - by E. H. Skolfield (free)
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2012, 07:00:30 PM »
I think this proves just as easily that it was the watering down of the Gospel message of salvation and repentance that has brought us to where we are more so than head coverings.  There are too many heresies and false teachings to fully discuss here that have played part in what has happened to the American church, but are you seriously trying to say that all of this is because of head coverings?

And you concluded that I was "...seriously trying to say that all of this is because of head coverings?" based on what I wrote previously in this thread, let alone elsewhere?

Fair enough.  Maybe it's not what you are suggesting but its seems to be what Ellis is suggesting in his book.  He says the reason the Church is so deceived is because women are covering their heads.  Hmmm..really?

So then you aren't aware of Ellis' book "The False Prophet"?

Am I missing something?  I'm not understanding the relevance?  We're talking about Demons in the Church and the fact that in this book Ellis suggests that the reason for the deception in the church is because women aren't wearing head coverings.  Not sure where the False Prophet comes into play in this context?  And yes, I have read it and enjoyed it immensely.

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Re: Demons in the Church - by E. H. Skolfield (free)
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2012, 07:15:38 PM »
Brother, a person's eschatology means absolutely nothing in relation to their fruit, godliness, etc.

Not an uncommon suggestion for futurists and preterists that have been shown the difficulty of what they have been taught. But is truth really irrelevant? What about adolescents that pop into church once a week, that live of the world the rest of the week, that are waiting for their parents to get 'raptured" so they can then know they will have seven years after that to knuckle down and repent? I entertained that view when I was in my 40s.

Well first of all I do not hold to those views myself so I can't be categorized as such.

Nor did I suggest you did. But while we are on the subject what church do you attend? What eschatology does your church ascribe to?

  But even still, I stand by that statement.  Your "interpretation" of end time events and every little type and symbol means nothing in regards to your position in Christ.  You are either in Christ or not.  Eschatology need not apply.

Even as I just illustrated how a teenager that was deferring repentance, counting on judgment deferred for 7 years because of a pre-trib rapture doctrine, would be lost forever if he died in a car wreck today. 

God sees us through the righteousness of his Son Jesus Christ, not by our eschatological correctness/incorrectness.  I'm actually shocked to see you suggesting such a thing. 

And just so you know.  You do not have it all figured out brother.

And you drew that conclusion because so many of my web pages are prefaced:

"This, as in all subjects in this web site, is not intended to convey any pretense of authority, but rather provide seed and evidence, for further additional personal bible study."
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/temple_of_god.htm

  There are things you believe about the bible that when you stand before our Lord God you will realize were wrong.  You will be thanking your lucky stars that God's acceptance of His children is not based on their wisdom or understanding of end time events, but rather on His love and mercy and the unbreakable power of of Christ's blood to redeem and sanctify us before the Father.

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Re: Demons in the Church - by E. H. Skolfield (free)
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2012, 07:29:32 PM »
I think this proves just as easily that it was the watering down of the Gospel message of salvation and repentance that has brought us to where we are more so than head coverings.  There are too many heresies and false teachings to fully discuss here that have played part in what has happened to the American church, but are you seriously trying to say that all of this is because of head coverings?

And you concluded that I was "...seriously trying to say that all of this is because of head coverings?" based on what I wrote previously in this thread, let alone elsewhere?

Fair enough.  Maybe it's not what you are suggesting but its seems to be what Ellis is suggesting in his book.  He says the reason the Church is so deceived is because women are covering their heads.  Hmmm..really?

So then you aren't aware of Ellis' book "The False Prophet"?

Am I missing something?  I'm not understanding the relevance?

It goes to your earlier false accusation against Ellis.

"Maybe it's not what you are suggesting but its seems to be what Ellis is suggesting in his book.  He says the reason the Church is so deceived is because women are covering their heads.  Hmmm..really?"

Since false eschatology is the biggest deception in the "church" that Ellis wrote about before and after "Demons", is the issue of women's head coverings why the "church" can't recognize Muhammad as THE false prophet, or because of a couple of 15th and 16th century Catholic Jesuits that created the doctrines in an anti-reformation effort?
Bear in mind that in the beginning of the 20th century when the church began to buy into pop-eschatology women  were still wearing head coverings in church.

We're talking about Demons in the Church and the fact that in this book Ellis suggests that the reason for the deception in the church is because women aren't wearing head coverings.  Not sure where the False Prophet comes into play in this context?  And yes, I have read it and enjoyed it immensely.

caracasmc

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Re: Demons in the Church - by E. H. Skolfield (free)
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2012, 07:37:47 PM »
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Even as I just illustrated how a teenager that was deferring repentance, counting on judgment deferred for 7 years because of a pre-trib rapture doctrine, would be lost forever if he died in a car wreck today.

That teenager will not be judged based upon their belief of the rapture or whatever other doctrine you want to add to the mix.  That teenager will be judged based on their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, period.  If they were unrepentant, then they would be judged accordingly.  But it would be because of their sin and lack of repentance, not their eschatology.   


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And you drew that conclusion because so many of my web pages are prefaced:

"This, as in all subjects in this web site, is not intended to convey any pretense of authority, but rather provide seed and evidence, for further additional personal bible study."

No. I drew that conclusion based on your ludicrous assertion that a person's eschatology affects their position in Christ and that people who don't believe in "your" interpretation of end time events (one that we share) can't bare fruit unto God or be godly believers.

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Re: Demons in the Church - by E. H. Skolfield (free)
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2012, 07:48:38 PM »
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If wearing a cap or hat causes me no spiritual harm
How do you know it doesn't? Maybe it allowed you to become deceived into believing headcoverings aren't important?

I suppose I simply trust in the cross of the Lord Jesus and rely on his Spirit to lead me into all truth (which is Him).

No shortage of folks in Christian forums proclaiming that as well. I suppose that's why there are thousands of denominations. But is that what we are exhorted to do?

1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1364.0

caracasmc

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Re: Demons in the Church - by E. H. Skolfield (free)
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2012, 07:55:03 PM »
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Since false eschatology is the biggest deception in the "church" that Ellis wrote about before and after "Demons", is the issue of women's head coverings why the "church" can't recognize Muhammad as THE false prophet, or because of a couple of 15th and 16th century Catholic Jesuits that created the doctrines in an anti-reformation effort?
Bear in mind that in the beginning of the 20th century when the church began to buy into pop-eschatology women  were still wearing head coverings in church.

Well that question is impossible to answer.  It's pure speculation.  The head covering passage mentions absolutely NOTHING about harmful consequences for not wearing the covering.  All it says is that it illustrates God's divine order.  To suggest that not doing it invites harm, deception, attacks, etc is to make the passage say something it does not. 

If you want to talk about speculative scenarios, what if a woman has nothing with which to cover her head?  Is she prohibited from praying?  Is she now under demonic attack and deception because she was unable to cover her head?  What if a sister is caught in a muslim country and thrown naked into a prison?  Is she unable to pray since she has no head covering?  Is she now deceived?

The head covering issue seems to be the LEAST of the churches problems.  As I already mentioned, and as you yourself affirm, women were covering their heads until only recently.  So, women were covering their heads in the midst of massive deception in the church starting from the 3rd and 4th centuries including; instituting a false clergy/laity divide, ritualizing the Lord's Supper, creating religious Titles and Offices, etc.  Why were believers not protected from such heresies and false doctrines as these if they were covering their heads at this time?  Heck, practically all of Paul's letters were written to churches in crises, deception, false teaching, false prophets, and according to Paul, they were all practicing the wearing of head coverings!  Why weren't they protected.

The idea that the massive deception in the Church is from failing to practice head covering is completely without scriptural merit and as shown above is not even historically possible as many heresies were already in the church from the very beginning despite women covering their heads. 

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Re: Demons in the Church - by E. H. Skolfield (free)
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2012, 07:57:48 PM »
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Even as I just illustrated how a teenager that was deferring repentance, counting on judgment deferred for 7 years because of a pre-trib rapture doctrine, would be lost forever if he died in a car wreck today.

That teenager will not be judged based upon their belief of the rapture or whatever other doctrine you want to add to the mix.  That teenager will be judged based on their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, period.  If they were unrepentant, then they would be judged accordingly.  But it would be because of their sin and lack of repentance, not their eschatology.   

The point was that the reason for that teen's failure to repent was the eschatology they were taughht.


Quote
And you drew that conclusion because so many of my web pages are prefaced:

"This, as in all subjects in this web site, is not intended to convey any pretense of authority, but rather provide seed and evidence, for further additional personal bible study."

No. I drew that conclusion based on your ludicrous assertion that a person's eschatology affects their position in Christ .......

No I explained how it does, and confessed my former self as prime example of how it inspires betting on judgment deferred, even decades beyond teen years.

....... and that people who don't believe in "your" interpretation of end time events (one that we share) can't bare fruit unto God or be godly believers.

False accusation upon false accusation will about do it for me. Even after you quoted, what I quoted from my site.
Have you ever had any exposure to the Pentecostal Church?

caracasmc

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Re: Demons in the Church - by E. H. Skolfield (free)
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2012, 07:59:26 PM »
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If wearing a cap or hat causes me no spiritual harm
How do you know it doesn't? Maybe it allowed you to become deceived into believing headcoverings aren't important?

I suppose I simply trust in the cross of the Lord Jesus and rely on his Spirit to lead me into all truth (which is Him).

No shortage of folks in Christian forums proclaiming that as well. I suppose that's why there are thousands of denominations. But is that what we are exhorted to do?

1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1364.0


The reason there are thousands of denominations is because everyone claims to follow an exclusive truth regarding the Bible and refuse to accept other believers whose views may differ. 

1 Cor 3:4 "For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men?"

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Re: Demons in the Church - by E. H. Skolfield (free)
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2012, 08:11:22 PM »
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The point was that the reason for that teen's failure to repent was the eschatology they were taughht.
 

I would suggest the reason for that teen's failure to repent was rebellion towards God.  Any true follower of God will repent and live a Godly life despite their eschatological views.


....... and that people who don't believe in "your" interpretation of end time events (one that we share) can't bare fruit unto God or be godly believers.

False accusations upon false accusation will about do it for me.
[/quote]

Sorry, but I don't see how this is a false accusation.  Is this not an accurate statement based on your previous comments? 

I said :"Brother, a person's eschatology means absolutely nothing in relation to their fruit, godliness, etc."

You replied: "Not an uncommon suggestion for futurists and preterists that have been shown the difficulty of what they have been taught."

So, if I'm understanding correctly, you are saying that someone who doesn't believe in our interpretation of end time events is unable to produce good fruit?  And then you support that by providing an abstract example of someone using rapture theology to not repent?  How about people that don't repent for other reasons?  Or how about those who believe in our view of end times events but fail God in other areas of their life and don't repent? 

All of this just seems to be made up hearsay and speculation.  Let's get back to the topic at hand which was Demons in the Church, 1 Cor 11 and head coverings....not Eschatology.