Author Topic: Daniel 11:36-45  (Read 39751 times)

resistingrexmundi

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Re: Daniel 11:36-45
« Reply #25 on: May 01, 2010, 10:57:00 AM »
1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1Cr 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.

2Cr 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

These verses are not open to interpretation. So the idea of a physical man of sin residing there is a little far-fetched.

Might we be able to consider it in physical man sense, residing within the corporate body of Christ?

Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Like this, for example
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yN9Ay4QAtW8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkEpQlL1GHo&NR=1


I had considered that. Could be that false teaching and doctrine could be the defilement of the temple God warned of in 1Cr 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.

However this would indicate multiple personages given the sweeping nature of the statement. If you want to see that spirit of lawlessness running rampant within the body of Christ go to Christian forums and comment on the deity of Jesus, homosexuality as a sin, or that the only way to God is through Jesus. I have been attacked on all of those fronts nearly every time I post there.


Doth that man love his Lord who would be willing to see Jesus wearing a crown of thorns, while for himself he craves a chaplet of laurel? Shall Jesus ascend to his throne by the cross, and do we expect to be carried there on the shoulders of applauding crowds? Charles H. Spurgeon

John 10:10

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Matt 24:15
« Reply #26 on: May 01, 2010, 10:57:16 AM »
I did not explain myself very well in regard to Matt 24:15.  Here is what I believe Jesus taught in this Olivet Discourse.  

Jesus had just told His disciples that the Temple would be torn down, and "not one stone here shall be left upon another, which will not be torn down."  

The disciples then asked Jesus three questions:

(1) Tell us when will these things be; i.e., when will the Temple be torn down?
(2) What will be the sign of Your coming?
(3) What will be the signs of the end of the age?

I believe Jesus answered the last question first in verses 4-14.
Then I believe Jesus answered the first question in verses 15-20.
Finally, I believe Jesus answered the second question in verses 21-51.

Therefore, I believe the "abomination of desolation" spoken about in Matt 24:15 happened during the time when Titus captured Jerusalem in 70 AD and the Temple was destroyed.  This was a warning to the Jews who would still be living in Jerusalem at that time that it was time to flee for their lives.  

Josephus records that 1.1 million Jews perished during the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, and only 97,000 were carried away captive.

resistingrexmundi

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Re: Daniel 11:36-45
« Reply #27 on: May 01, 2010, 11:03:16 AM »
I did not explain myself very well in regard to Matt 24:15.  Here is what I believe Jesus taught in this Olivet Discourse. 

Jesus had just told His disciples that the Temple would be torn down, and "not one stone here shall be left upon another, which will not be torn down." 



Therefore, I believe the "abomination of desolation" spoken about in Matt 24:15 happened during the time when Titus captured Jerusalem in 70 AD and the Temple was destroyed.  This was a warning to the Jews who would still be living in Jerusalem at that time that it was time to flee for their lives. 

Josephus records that 1.1 million Jews perished during the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, and only 97,000 were carried away captive.


Here is the issue with that.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

By the very nature of that action nothing was standing where it shouldn't.
Doth that man love his Lord who would be willing to see Jesus wearing a crown of thorns, while for himself he craves a chaplet of laurel? Shall Jesus ascend to his throne by the cross, and do we expect to be carried there on the shoulders of applauding crowds? Charles H. Spurgeon

Peter

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Re: Matt 24:15
« Reply #28 on: May 01, 2010, 11:13:40 AM »
I believe Jesus answered the last question first in verses 4-14.
Then I believe Jesus answered the first question in verses 15-20.
Finally, I believe Jesus answered the second question in verses 21-51.
Do we have licence to switch around the chronology of scripture to fit our presumptions?

Therefore, I believe the "abomination of desolation" spoken about in Matt 24:15 happened during the time when Titus captured Jerusalem in 70 AD and the Temple was destroyed.  This was a warning to the Jews who would still be living in Jerusalem at that time that it was time to flee for their lives.  

Josephus records that 1.1 million Jews perished during the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, and only 97,000 were carried away captive.[/b]
No question that was desolating to Jerusalem. But are you aware that another 750,000 Jews were killed in the Bar Kokhba revolt less than 70 years later? Desolated again. What about when the Islamic Kalif Omar marched in and took over in 639? All Gentile conquests - from the Romans to the Islamists.
Do you know how desolate Jerusalem was by the early 19th century?

In "A History of the Jews" Paul Johnson writes on page 321:  "Between 1827 and 1839, largely through British efforts, the population of Jerusalem rose from 550 to 5,500 and in all Palestine it topped 10,000 - the real beginning of the Jewish return to the Promised Land. In 1838 Palmerston appointed the first western vice-consul in Jerusalem, W.T. Young, and told him 'to afford protection to the Jews generally'."

Even as late as 1867 Mark Twain described it thus: " ...[a] desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds-a silent mournful expanse....A desolation is here that not even imagination can grace with the pomp of life and action....We never saw a human being on the whole route....There was hardly a tree or a shrub anywhere. Even the olive and the cactus, those fast friends of the worthless soil, had almost deserted the country."

Luke 21:24   And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

I believe those "times of the Gentiles" were fulfilled when the Jews took back control of Jerusalem in 1967.
I believe the Dome of the Rock is the symbol of the desolation of Jerusalem.
http://beholdthebeast.com/matthew_24_olivet_discourse.htm

John 10:10

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2 Thess 2
« Reply #29 on: May 01, 2010, 11:16:20 AM »
2 Thess 2:3 identifies that a "man of lawlessness" will come forth shortly before the coming of our Lord, "who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship" (vs 4). 

Verse 8 again identifies him as "that lawless one, whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and wonders." 

It hard for me to not believe that this man of lawlessness will not be a person who arises on the world's scene shortly before our Lord returns, "whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His coming."

Blessings

Peter

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Re: 2 Thess 2
« Reply #30 on: May 01, 2010, 11:27:22 AM »
2 Thess 2:3 identifies that a "man of lawlessness" will come forth shortly before the coming of our Lord, "who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship" (vs 4). 

Verse 8 again identifies him as "that lawless one, whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and wonders." 

It hard for me to not believe that this man of lawlessness will not be a person who arises on the world's scene shortly before our Lord returns, "whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His coming."

Blessings


Then what "temple of God" does he "sitteth" in?

resistingrexmundi

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Re: 2 Thess 2
« Reply #31 on: May 01, 2010, 11:33:47 AM »
2 Thess 2:3 identifies that a "man of lawlessness" will come forth shortly before the coming of our Lord, "who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship" (vs 4). 

Verse 8 again identifies him as "that lawless one, whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and wonders." 

It hard for me to not believe that this man of lawlessness will not be a person who arises on the world's scene shortly before our Lord returns, "whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His coming."

Blessings


Could you please show me in that chapter where it indicates that this man of lawlessness was to come "shortly before the coming of our Lord"? It simply says that the day of the Lord wouldn't happen until after he had been revealed. But the same chapter said he was at work in Paul's day.

2Th 2:7   For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way. 

And only if we let him. This is a common theme. Satan is limited so long as we resist him.

Would you like to see the man of lawlessness working as we type?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7462128-3/#post54598848 doubting Jesus' deity.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7462025-2/#post54576096 condoning homosexuality
Doth that man love his Lord who would be willing to see Jesus wearing a crown of thorns, while for himself he craves a chaplet of laurel? Shall Jesus ascend to his throne by the cross, and do we expect to be carried there on the shoulders of applauding crowds? Charles H. Spurgeon

Peter

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Re: 2 Thess 2
« Reply #32 on: May 01, 2010, 11:44:19 AM »
Would you like to see the man of lawlessness working as we type?

Also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3cLChnG_mE You can scroll to the 1:05 mark
Hard to imagine our point being better made than with the images (and sermon) in this video.

John 10:10

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Re: 2 Thess 2
« Reply #33 on: May 01, 2010, 01:42:53 PM »
2 Thess 2:3 identifies that a "man of lawlessness" will come forth shortly before the coming of our Lord, "who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship" (vs 4).  

Verse 8 again identifies him as "that lawless one, whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and wonders."  

It hard for me to not believe that this man of lawlessness will not be a person who arises on the world's scene shortly before our Lord returns, "whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His coming."

Blessings



Then what "temple of God" does he "sitteth" in?

I believe we all still know/see in part (1 Cor 13:9) in this Church age.  When our Lord returns, the partial will be done away with (vs 10).  As we get closer and closer to our Lord's return, then I believe we will see things better that we only see now in part.  

Taking his seat in the temple of God could mean letting Satan empower him as "the man of lawlessness."  I do not necessarily believe that a Temple must be built in Jerusalem for this to be fulfilled, as many Christians believe.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2010, 04:17:51 PM by John 10:10 »

John 10:10

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Re: 2 Thess 2
« Reply #34 on: May 01, 2010, 02:01:21 PM »
2 Thess 2:3 identifies that a "man of lawlessness" will come forth shortly before the coming of our Lord, "who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship" (vs 4). 

Verse 8 again identifies him as "that lawless one, whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and wonders." 

It hard for me to not believe that this man of lawlessness will not be a person who arises on the world's scene shortly before our Lord returns, "whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His coming."

Blessings


Could you please show me in that chapter where it indicates that this man of lawlessness was to come "shortly before the coming of our Lord"? It simply says that the day of the Lord wouldn't happen until after he had been reveale[/size]d. But the same chapter said he was at work in Paul's day.

Answer: The man of lawlessness in vs 3 is the same lawless one in vs 8 that is slain when the Lord returns.  Therefore, I conclude that he comes on the world's scene very shortly before our Lord returns.

2Th 2:7   For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way. 

And only if we let him. This is a common theme. Satan is limited so long as we resist him.

Would you like to see the man of lawlessness working as we type?

Answer:  Yes, God has called the Church to hold back evil in the world, and to carry the gospel of the kingdom that Jesus is Lord to the ends of the earth.  But there is coming a day when we can no longer hold back the events of the end of the age, and then God will send forth His angels to reap the final harvest. Matt 13:41

http://www.christianforums.com/t7462128-3/#post54598848 doubting Jesus' deity.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7462025-2/#post54576096 condoning homosexuality

Peter

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Re: 2 Thess 2
« Reply #35 on: May 02, 2010, 07:42:37 AM »
Taking his seat in the temple of God could mean letting Satan empower him as "the man of lawlessness."  I do not necessarily believe that a Temple must be built in Jerusalem for this to be fulfilled, as many Christians believe.

"Necessarily"? What would the purpose of a rebuilt temple be if we Christians are to believe that our Savior's work on the cross is a complete and sufficient? Why was the veil in the last temple rent at Jesus' death, and torn down 40 years later?

So then on what basis do you believe it is a single individual? Where is the "temple of God"? In one single individual? No. In the body of Christ.
So as resist pointed out, the man of sin is working now - and has been.
What I see is a church running over the hill with torches and pitchforks in hand, chasing after "that man of sin" of some future someday, when they are blinded to the fact that he may well be right there among them, in the body of Christ.
Futurists warn of some perceived pending future crisis, perpetrated by some future bogeyman, while they are blinded to this crises already being manifest around them - and increasingly so. I believe that blindness is the work of the enemy. Whether unclean spirits and demons in their church, or ecumenism, or blessing reprobate behavior, etc.

"Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God"
What is all that is called God?

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The bible warns to "try the spirits" but do Pentecostals generally do that?
It warns of reprobate minds from homosexuality yet the Episcopal Church ordains them as ministers.
In spite of all of the fulfilled prophecy of Jews being restored to their land, some Presbyterian leaders met with Hamas.
This while the Pope kisses the Quran and the Vatican Council explains how Mohammedan antichrists worship the same God as Christians and Jews.

Please watch this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3cLChnG_mE You can scroll to the 1:05 mark
Hard to imagine our point being better made than with the images (and sermon) in this video.

If not some future rebuilt temple, then what temple is 2Thess talking about??? Please be specific.

John 10:10

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2 Thess 2:4
« Reply #36 on: May 02, 2010, 11:50:09 AM »

We agree on this point.  For the Jews to re-build a Temple in Jerusalem, and re-institute the old covenant sacrifice system would be a stench to the nostrils of God.  Therefore, 2 Thess 2:4 must mean something other than the re-building of a physical temple. 

Quote
So then on what basis do you believe it is a single individual?

On the basis of the plain language of 2 Thess 2:8-9 where Paul says a "lawless one" whose coming is in accord with the activity of satan with all power and signs and wonders will be slain by the appearance of our Lord's 2nd coming. 

If others want to believe this is not an individual who comes on the world's scene just prior to our Lord's return, or that this has been fulfilled in past history, I don't have a problem if they want to believe this.

For me, I believe this will happen just prior to our Lord's 2nd coming, and it will be clearly evident for those Christians who are alive on earth when our Lord returns.   

Blessings

Peter

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Re: 2 Thess 2:4
« Reply #37 on: May 02, 2010, 12:53:44 PM »

We agree on this point.  For the Jews to re-build a Temple in Jerusalem, and re-institute the old covenant sacrifice system would be a stench to the nostrils of God.  Therefore, 2 Thess 2:4 must mean something other than the re-building of a physical temple.  


THEN WHAT? Is it that difficult to locate the "temple of God"? have you noticed how you are avoiding the inevitable conclusion you will reach? Where is the temple of God?

Quote
So then on what basis do you believe it is a single individual?

On the basis of the plain language ........


You say "plain language" even as you express that you don't have a clue as to where he sitteth.
If we are to understand this passage as the "plain language" that you express calls for a future single individual, then we are going to be left with little choice but to understand that the "man of sin" is Judas, since that's the only other reference to "son of perdition" in scripture. Do you believe this passage is a reference to Judas returning in the future?

If others want to believe this is not an individual who comes on the world's scene just prior to our Lord's return, or that this has been fulfilled in past history, I don't have a problem if they want to believe this.

I already explained the danger that so much of the church has succumbed to by being deceived into believing this is something that is of the future, rather than the past present and future.

Also that false doctrine prevents you from being able to explain to a Muslim how his fate is expressed in Bible prophecy. Often I even see Christians pointing out to Muslims that their "The" "Antichrist" is just like the "Dijal" detailed in the Quran, that Muslims understand from the Quran is on their team and against Christians and Jews! Thus encouraging Muslims to believe the Quran is an inspired work of God!

What might sharing such a large concept or component in your eschatology with Islam, communicate to you about your doctrine?

 
For me, I believe this will happen just prior to our Lord's 2nd coming, and it will be clearly evident for those Christians who are alive on earth when our Lord returns.  

Blessings[/b]

Because that's what you were first trained to believe, and then embellished in self-indoctrination. I did too.

Peter

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Re: 2 Thess 2:4
« Reply #38 on: May 02, 2010, 01:01:13 PM »
On the basis of the plain language of 2 Thess 2:8-9 where Paul says a "lawless one" whose coming is in accord with the activity of satan with all power and signs and wonders will be slain by the appearance of our Lord's 2nd coming.  

I just noticed that you may be insisting on what is likely an inserted word.
I've noticed this before, but I didn't realize the possible importance, because the passage works both ways for me. Not so for you.

8   kai  <2532> {AND}  tote  <5119> {THEN}  apokalufqhsetai  <601> (5701) {WILL BE REVEALED}  o  <3588> {THE}  anomoV  <459> {LAWLESS [ONE],}

There is a reason that word [ONE] is in brackets. If it's inserted by the translators (that shared your doctrinal bias) then this verse may well be speaking about a whole group of people. I'd say 1.5 billion antichrists fits the passage pretty well. Or perhaps all the lawless.

Please visit this link. I worked a lot more into it today.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=415.msg5121#msg5121

John 10:10

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Re: 2 Thess 2:4
« Reply #39 on: May 02, 2010, 03:34:14 PM »
THEN WHAT? Is it that difficult to locate the "temple of God"? have you noticed how you are avoiding the inevitable conclusion you will reach? Where is the temple of God?

I said this earlier: Taking his seat in the temple of God could mean letting Satan empower him as "the man of lawlessness."

I confess I still see only in part, as did Paul.  As we get closer to the 2nd coming of our Lord, events surrounding His coming will become much clearer, including the "lawless one" if there is such a future lawless one.

My eschatology views have changed considerably over the last 40 years.  Now I look mostly to the teachings of Jesus in Matthew 13 and His Olivet Discourse to understand where we are in God's time table concerning the end of the age and our Lord's 2nd coming.  Especially important are these words in Luke 21:36,

"But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man."

Blessings

Peter

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Re: 2 Thess 2:4
« Reply #40 on: May 02, 2010, 03:38:27 PM »
My eschatology views have changed considerably over the last 40 years.  Now I look mostly to the teachings of Jesus in Matthew 13 and His Olivet Discourse to understand where we are in God's time table concerning the end of the age and our Lord's 2nd coming.  Especially important are these words in Luke 21:36,
But even to accomplish that you admitted that you had to juggle it out of order.
Please click on the link I provided to 2 Thess above.

John 10:10

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Re: Daniel 11:36-45
« Reply #41 on: May 02, 2010, 05:21:42 PM »
The main change I have made since my pre-trib rapture days of the late 1960's is to center my beliefs on the teachings of Jesus, not on prophesies that I may know only in part.  The teachings of Daniel, Ezekiel, Zechariah, Paul and John are great for occasional studies, but I continue to rely on the Spirit of truth to show me what is to come.  This I believe God will do as we have need of full understanding of what is to come.

"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth ; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak ; and He will disclose to you what is to come." (John 16:13)

Blessings

Peter

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Re: Daniel 11:36-45
« Reply #42 on: May 02, 2010, 10:16:51 PM »
The main change I have made since my pre-trib rapture days of the late 1960's is to center my beliefs on the teachings of Jesus, not on prophesies that I may know only in part.  The teachings of Daniel, Ezekiel, Zechariah, Paul and John are great for occasional studies, but I continue to rely on the Spirit of truth to show me what is to come.  This I believe God will do as we have need of full understanding of what is to come.

"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth ; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak ; and He will disclose to you what is to come." (John 16:13)

Blessings

Did you ever read The False Prophet?
http://beholdthebeast.com/the_great_detective.htm

resistingrexmundi

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Re: Daniel 11:36-45
« Reply #43 on: May 03, 2010, 08:20:07 AM »
The main change I have made since my pre-trib rapture days of the late 1960's is to center my beliefs on the teachings of Jesus, not on prophesies that I may know only in part.  The teachings of Daniel, Ezekiel, Zechariah, Paul and John are great for occasional studies, but I continue to rely on the Spirit of truth to show me what is to come.  This I believe God will do as we have need of full understanding of what is to come.

"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth ; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak ; and He will disclose to you what is to come." (John 16:13)

Blessings


Nearly a third of the Bible is prophecy. So I feel God wanted you to study it more than occasionally. Besides there are practical application to the teachings contained within them. Like the letter to the 7 churches for example.
Doth that man love his Lord who would be willing to see Jesus wearing a crown of thorns, while for himself he craves a chaplet of laurel? Shall Jesus ascend to his throne by the cross, and do we expect to be carried there on the shoulders of applauding crowds? Charles H. Spurgeon

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Re: Daniel 11:36-45
« Reply #44 on: May 03, 2010, 10:34:39 AM »
Nearly a third of the Bible is prophecy. So I feel God wanted you to study it more than occasionally. Besides there are practical application to the teachings contained within them. Like the letter to the 7 churches for example.

I did not say I haven't studied extensively all the prophesies of the Bible in the past, for I have.  I just said I spend more time today with the truth of John 10:27, listening to what our Lord wants me to do on earth before He returns. 

Daniel has this to say about those who are alive on earth shortly before our Lord returns.

"Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand." (Dan 12:10)

Blessings

Peter

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Re: Daniel 11:36-45
« Reply #45 on: May 03, 2010, 11:21:08 AM »
Nearly a third of the Bible is prophecy. So I feel God wanted you to study it more than occasionally. Besides there are practical application to the teachings contained within them. Like the letter to the 7 churches for example.

I did not say I haven't studied extensively all the prophesies of the Bible in the past, for I have.  I just said I spend more time today with the truth of John 10:27, listening to what our Lord wants me to do on earth before He returns.  

I realize we have taken you out of your comfort zone, but surely you can see you have been unable to answer to what we have been asking you about your view, remaining mute on the dangers to the church we have pointed out result from your view, and you haven't brought an argument against it.
We've given you very tangible answers that you haven't attempted to refute but rather ignore, and to support your view, substitute for answers to ours with:
"...I believe we will see things better that we only see now in part."
"I confess I still see only in part, as did Paul."
"....must mean something other than the re-building of a physical temple."

But never admitted to where the temple of God mentioned in 2 Thess is, for example. Your eschatology depends on the answer to that question.
Why not review the thread challenge yourself to answering a few of the questions, whether in here or to yourself?

Let me ask you a question. How long ago did you decide the futurists were wrong about a rebuilt temple? When did you stop holding that view?

resistingrexmundi

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Re: Daniel 11:36-45
« Reply #46 on: May 04, 2010, 03:15:15 AM »
I put some of my response in this thread John 10:10

http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=415.msg5149#msg5149

Before we go any further I want to let you know that if I offended you it was not my intention. But you seemed to have indicated in your previous post that for 40 years now you have only taken an occasional look at prophecy. But given the events in Isreal in the last 40 years now is a time more important than any that preceded it to take a look at those books and for once leave our doctrinal baggage at the door and just let it say what it says. For example.

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm

Please read that page. Or if that is a little too long.

http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=543.0

That doesn't go into as much detail as the first link but it still conveys what I am trying to point out.
Doth that man love his Lord who would be willing to see Jesus wearing a crown of thorns, while for himself he craves a chaplet of laurel? Shall Jesus ascend to his throne by the cross, and do we expect to be carried there on the shoulders of applauding crowds? Charles H. Spurgeon

Peter

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Re: Daniel 11:36-45
« Reply #47 on: May 04, 2010, 05:28:04 AM »
Matthew Henry expressed the same thing you did, only as looking forward to our times

Matthew Henry expressed it:

"VI. That this prophecy of those times, though sealed up now, would be of great use to those that should live then, v. 4. Daniel must now shut up the words and seal the book because the time would be long ere these things would be accomplished: and it was some comfort that the Jewish nation, though, in the infancy of their return from Babylon, while they were few and weak, they met with obstructions in their work, were not persecuted for their religion till a long time after, when they had grown to some strength and maturity. He must seal the book because it would not be understood, and therefore would not be regarded, till the things contained in it were accomplished; but he must keep it safely, as a treasure of great value, laid up for the ages to come, to whom it would be of great service; for many shall then run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. Then this hidden treasure shall be opened, and many shall search into it, and dig for the knowledge of it, as for silver. They shall run to and fro, to enquire out copies of it, shall collate them, and see that they be true and authentic. They shall read it over and over, shall meditate upon it, and run it over in their minds; discurrent-they shall discourse of it, and talk it over among themselves, and compare notes about it, if by any means they may sift out the meaning of it; and thus knowledge shall be increased. By consulting this prophecy on this occasion they shall be led to search other scriptures, which shall contribute much to their advancement in useful knowledge; for then shall we know if we follow on to know the Lord, Hos. 6:3. Those that would have their knowledge increased must take pains, must not sit still in slothfulness and bare wishes but run to and fro, must make use of all the means of knowledge and improve all opportunities of getting their mistakes rectified, their doubts resolved, and their acquaintance with the things of God improved, to know more and to know better what they do know. And let us here see reason to hope that, 1. Those things of God which are now dark and obscure will hereafter be made clear, and easy to be understood. Truth is the daughter of time. Scripture prophecies will be expounded by the accomplishment of them; therefore they are given, and for that explication they are reserved. Therefore they are told us before, that, when they do come to pass, we may believe. 2. Those things of God which are despised and neglected, and thrown by as useless, shall be brought into reputation, shall be found to be of great service, and be brought into request; for divine revelation, however slighted for a time, shall be magnified and made honourable, and, above all, in the judgment of the great day, when the books shall be opened, and that book among the rest."

Discussion of FULFILLED prophecy, not speculation about some future someday. Isaac Newton expressed the same.

"This Prophecy is called the Revelation, with respect to the scripture of truth, which Daniel was commanded to shut up and seal, till the time of the end. Daniel sealed it until the time of the end; {Daniel 12:4, 9} and until that time comes, the Lamb is opening the seals:....
All which is as much as to say, that these Prophecies of Daniel and John should not be understood till the time of the end: .... But in the very end, the Prophecy should be so far interpreted as to convince many."
(Part II. Observations Upon the Apocalypse of St. John. Chap 1)

But sadly, the men above would have never guessed the state of the church today, choosing self-imposed blinders through the doctrines of men, with a virtual absence of Berean hearts. The stunning truth of Islam in bible prophecy being overshadowed by the heresy of a future rebuilt temple and a bogeyman. That fulfilled prophecy is replaced by idle speculation about some future someday.

The truth that Berean spirited Henry and Newton knew would surely come, replaced by fables of the silver screen.
And it's not like we weren't warned:

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.


Peter

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Re: 2 Thess 2:4
« Reply #48 on: May 04, 2010, 08:04:55 AM »
On the basis of the plain language of 2 Thess 2:8-9 where Paul says a "lawless one" whose coming is in accord with the activity of satan with all power and signs and wonders will be slain by the appearance of our Lord's 2nd coming.  

The "plain language" of this area of scripture, is one of the few things you expressed anything related to certainty in, but what we find is that your understanding is dependent on a "helper" word that was added to the original Greek by the translators that were perhaps driven by a similar understanding as yours.

8   kai  <2532> {AND}  tote  <5119> {THEN}  apokalufqhsetai  <601> (5701) {WILL BE REVEALED}  o  <3588> {THE}  anomoV  <459> {LAWLESS [one],} 9   ou  <3739> {WHOSE}  estin  <2076> (5748)  h  <3588> {IS}  parousia  <3952> {COMING}  kat  <2596> {ACCORDING TO [THE]}  energeian  <1753>  tou  <3588> {WORKING}  satana  <4567> {OF SATAN}  en  <1722> {IN}  pash  <3956> {EVERY}  dunamei  <1411> {POWER}  kai  <2532> {AND}  shmeioiV  <4592> {SIGNS}  kai  <2532> {AND}  terasin  <5059> {WONDERS}  yeudouV  <5579> {OF FALSEHOOD,}

What we are trying to point out to you John, is that the only support it seems you have offered so far for your view, is your willingness to hold it.

John 10:10

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Re: Daniel 11:36-45
« Reply #49 on: May 04, 2010, 09:57:30 AM »
Nearly a third of the Bible is prophecy. So I feel God wanted you to study it more than occasionally. Besides there are practical application to the teachings contained within them. Like the letter to the 7 churches for example.

I did not say I haven't studied extensively all the prophesies of the Bible in the past, for I have.  I just said I spend more time today with the truth of John 10:27, listening to what our Lord wants me to do on earth before He returns.  

I realize we have taken you out of your comfort zone, but surely you can see you have been unable to answer to what we have been asking you about your view, remaining mute on the dangers to the church we have pointed out result from your view, and you haven't brought an argument against it.
We've given you very tangible answers that you haven't attempted to refute but rather ignore, and to support your view, substitute for answers to ours with:
"...I believe we will see things better that we only see now in part."
"I confess I still see only in part, as did Paul."
"....must mean something other than the re-building of a physical temple."

But never admitted to where the temple of God mentioned in 2 Thess is, for example. Your eschatology depends on the answer to that question.
Why not review the thread challenge yourself to answering a few of the questions, whether in here or to yourself?

Let me ask you a question. How long ago did you decide the futurists were wrong about a rebuilt temple? When did you stop holding that view?

On the contrary, I'm very comfortable listening to what my Lord is telling me, trusting He will let me know what I need to know if I'm still alive on earth when He returns.

I've explained this twice before, so here it is again.  Taking his seat in the temple of God could mean letting Satan empower him as "the man of lawlessness."

As for deciding that a physical Temple does not have to be rebuilt before Jesus returns, these verses in Acts 15 helped me,

15 "With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written,
16 'AFTER THESE THINGS I will return, AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN, AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS, AND I WILL RESTORE IT,
17 SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD, AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,'

David never built a Temple for God's presence, Solomon did.  The temple David built was one of the heart.  God is rebuilding a temple of praise and worship in the hearts of His children.

Blessings

« Last Edit: September 18, 2010, 03:35:07 PM by Peter »