"The False Prophet" - Quickest Way to Understand Islam in Bible Prophecy

[Peter]

The Quickest way to understand the role of Islam in bible prophecy is to read The False Prophet. For almost 30 years, the author, Ellis Skolfield, has written about the central role of Islam in bible prophecy by employing sound hermeneutic tools in study.
It is free and fun to read.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_false_prophet.htm
Available in PDF in English, Spanish, French, Russian, Norwegian, and German.
DEN FALSKE PROFETEN - EL FALSO PROFITA - LE FAUX PROPHETE - DER FALSCHE PROPHET -

Try digging into chapter 1 now:
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_great_detective.htm

[Kurt J.]

I just read it.  I thought he made many good points and I may be inclined to switch back my interpretation of Daniel's 4th Beast to Rome rather than the Islamic Jihad that took over the M.E. due to his observations on the LBL Beast.  Some of the time periods that he came up were amazing, however I have a few questions:

1.  Although Skolfield admits that Islam overran Jerusalem in the 630s, he places the "woman fleeing" (Rev 12:6) at 688, which is the start of the Dome of the Rock (DotR) construction.  The only reason apparent to me for doing this is to arrive at the date of 1948 for the end of her fleeing.  On the other hand, by all accounts, Jews started to return to Palestine in the middle of the 19th Century, and the British controlled it from basically the end of WW I.  Any thoughts?

2.  Although Skolfield treats the 2 1/2 times, 1260 days, 1290 days and 42 months, he doesn't address the 1335 and 2300 days; to your knowledge, does he have an explanation for these?  The 1335 days seem particularly problematic to me under his construct:

Dan 12:11-12, From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days!

The 1290 and 1335 are linked; if its 1290 years from the regularly sacrifice ending when the Jews were taken captive to the AoD in 688, does he say something significant happened 45 Hebrew years (44.3 solar years) later in 722 AD?

3.  I find A-Millennialism to be less supported in scripture than Pre-Millennialism due to all the scriptures (particularly OT) regarding the Messiah reigning over His people, the nations of the earth streaming to Israel, the celebration of the Feast of Tabernacles, Jesus showing up physically to deliver Israel from the Gog/Magog attack, etc.  Skolfield strenuously argues for the faithfulness of God to fulfill his promises to Israel, yet has time ending at Yeshua's return.  His argument out of Rev 10 of "there will be time no longer" that this means the 'end of time' is untenable, particularly coupled with his Rev 20 argument that the 1000 years are symbolic of the Christian age (typical A-Mill argument, granted) when he has gone to such great lengths to exactly define the various time periods of scripture.  There a literally hundreds of objections I could come up with, so it may not be productive to discuss this, however do you have any thoughts on this topic?  It seems to me that much of what Skolfield discovered does not need to be jettisoned over A-Mill vs. Pre-Mill, or does it?

4.  His conversion of 3-1/2 days to 3.5 x 365.25 = 1278.4 years is inconsistent with his other interpretations... it ought to be 3.5 years; am I missing something?

5.  Near the end of his book he switches up "the bad guy" to be a 10 part division of the globe when the "Scarlet Beast" reigns for 1 hour (he says 15 days; I think he's pushing his 'day for a year' methodology too far) rather than an Islamic Beast, which is clearly the end time invader of Israel, I think because he has convinced himself that there was a great turning point in 1967; have I misunderstood him?

Truly there was much I liked; he is very insightful.  I could come up with some other questions, but that's enough for now.

I've got a blog at http://prophesite.wordpress.com/  I waver between historicism and futurism.  I like the continuous fulfillment understanding of scripture, although I don't see myself switching from pre-Mill.  I am firmly post-Trib, and I do agree with Skolfield on his understanding that of when the Trib started and that the AoD has occurred.  In my view the AoD basically began with the national Jewish rejection of its Messiah and was made evident with the destruction of the temple and the construction of the DotR.  I do agree the DotR is built on the wrong rock!!

Take care,
Kurt

[Peter]

Hello brother Kurt, and welcome to the forum!
Please chop pieces of this off and quote separately to explore parts you may have more questions about. I'm going to just quickly sketch in a few answers including links.

I just read it.  I thought he made many good points and I may be inclined to switch back my interpretation of Daniel's 4th Beast to Rome rather than the Islamic Jihad that took over the M.E. due to his observations on the LBL Beast.  Some of the time periods that he came up were amazing, however I have a few questions:

1.  Although Skolfield admits that Islam overran Jerusalem in the 630s, he places the "woman fleeing" (Rev 12:6) at 688, which is the start of the Dome of the Rock (DotR) construction.  The only reason apparent to me for doing this is to arrive at the date of 1948 for the end of her fleeing.

Those problems pin both 1948 and 1967 and they are confirmed quite handily textually as well.
I look at the DoR as God's prophetic symbol of the end, with the false prophet Muhammad's Islamic kingdom "beast" as the final foe of God's people.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/abomination_of_desolation.htm
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/matthew_24_olivet_discourse.htm#abomination_of_desolation
The "woman" didn't stop fleeing into the wilderness (of the gentile nations) until the beginning of the 19th century when 1200 years of Islamization had ultimately rendered Jerusalem a desolate denuded wasteland, spiritually, physically, and in terms of population of both Jews and Christians.
http://petewaldo.com/zionism.htm

[Peter]

On the other hand, by all accounts, Jews started to return to Palestine in the middle of the 19th Century, and the British controlled it from basically the end of WW I.  Any thoughts?

Just as prophesied. The two horned beast ruling in the presence of the Islamic beast.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/leopard_bear_lion_beast.htm#two_horned_beast
You might want to revisit the chapter on the two-horned beast.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/two_horned_beast.htm

2.  Although Skolfield treats the 2 1/2 times, 1260 days, 1290 days and 42 months, he doesn't address the 1335 ......

That was one of my first questions to brother Ellis and it is another blessed confirmation of another problem:
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm#daniel_1335_days

...... and 2300 days; to your knowledge, does he have an explanation for these?

To my recollection the 2300 remains a mystery, but you might check his teaching outline which has become quite extensive:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2655.0

The 1335 days seem particularly problematic to me under his construct:

Dan 12:11-12, From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days!

The 1290 and 1335 are linked; if its 1290 years from the regularly sacrifice ending when the Jews were taken captive to the AoD in 688, does he say something significant happened 45 Hebrew years (44.3 solar years) later in 722 AD?

3.  I find A-Millennialism to be less supported in scripture than Pre-Millennialism .......

Here's a paper from Ellis on it:
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_millennial_reign.htm
and video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3wri1cq7l8&list=UUrxNwIRpJWhyelxfbtnE6Cw&index=2&feature=plcp
Where is the temple of God?
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/temple_of_god.htm

[Peter]

....... due to all the scriptures (particularly OT) regarding the Messiah reigning over His people, ......

Jesus rules and reigns in His kingdom today. Christians are not of this world but are in His kingdom. There is a verse that is going to give you a great bit of difficulty, through which this cannot be plausibly denied:

Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Jesus did indeed return from the Father in His glorified body and proclaimed:
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

...... the nations of the earth streaming to Israel, the celebration of the Feast of Tabernacles, Jesus showing up physically to deliver Israel from the Gog/Magog attack, etc.  Skolfield strenuously argues for the faithfulness of God to fulfill his promises to Israel, yet has time ending at Yeshua's return.

One thing we tend not to do is get engaged in is using prophecy for predicting the future, but focus on fulfilled prophecy.
And God is continuing to fulfill those promises as we write. See our section on Zionism.
The longer I have been away from the millennium reign the more it seems to me it makes Jesus perfect sacrifice, imperfect, incomplete and unfinished.
Where is the temple of God?
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/temple_of_god.htm

[Peter]

His argument out of Rev 10 of "there will be time no longer" that this means the 'end of time' is untenable, particularly coupled with his Rev 20 argument that the 1000 years are symbolic of the Christian age (typical A-Mill argument, granted) when he has gone to such great lengths to exactly define the various time periods of scripture.

Also please note bifids and chiasms regarding chronology:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1299.0

There a literally hundreds of objections I could come up with, so it may not be productive to discuss this, however do you have any thoughts on this topic?

I've no doubt about that. It takes a while to absorb an entirely different context than the one we have held dear. But there is a reason there are only four approaches of Christian eschatology (3 since 19th century "Idealism" is basically gnostic styled mysticism).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_eschatology#Approaches_to_prophetic_interpretation
You won't be well served it you are trying to understand by wringing bits and pieces of what you read, through the filter of pre-conceived notion you may hold through futurism, or glimpses of preterism you may have gleaned.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/traditional_framework.htm
The traditional continous- historic context needs to be considered entirely on it's own merit, and only then compared to preterism or futurism. It is also well supported by the great men of the reformation which quite sets me at ease.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm#day_year

[Peter]

It seems to me that much of what Skolfield discovered does not need to be jettisoned over A-Mill vs. Pre-Mill, or does it?

It takes a considerable amount of Berean spirit to overcome a doctrine even to the extent that you have, by even considering another context. When I first read The False Prophet and Shining Man With Hurt Hands - simultaneously! - I had been attending Calvary Chapel. I just kept wanting to believe that so many people with such great hearts for the Lord, couldn't be negatively influenced by a doctrine that the enemy put in the church! There must be some other explanation. Perhaps a benign false doctrine. As most futurists will usually proclaim before they run away from a chat is "well it's not a salvation issue anyway", but what we are talking about is truth. And since Jesus IS truth, the best way we can serve Him is by seeking out the truth however contrary to our doctrine and preconceived notion it might be. Don't get my wrong. I'm as guilty of self-indoctrination as the next guy, but at least I can run into the arms of those great men of the reformation.
As time went by I kept noticing things, like the location of the temple of God and where we should look for "that man of sin", and also realized that I myself, when I was in my 40s remained unrepentant and thinking "Well when my mother and brother and sister get raptured, then I'll know I've got 7 years to knuckle down and fly right." Of course not considering my own mortality, and that my "last trump" could happen in the next moment from an aneurism. The pre-trib rapture offers the allure of judgment deferred. If that was the way I was thinking in my 40s image how easy it is for a kid whose parents drag him off to church on Sunday with all the temptation to stray he faces from his peers as well as the online virtual world all week. Yet the pre-trib rapture doctrine is the most vehemently argued and tightly held part of those indoctrinated into futurism. Those threads in forums can contain 20 or 30,000 replies.

4.  His conversion of 3-1/2 days to 3.5 x 365.25 = 1278.4 years is inconsistent with his other interpretations... it ought to be 3.5 years; am I missing something?

Not quite sure what you are asking, but the problems are done in both the "prophetic calendar" for old testament prophecy and the 1st century Julian (effectively solar) calendar for NT prophecy.
Also the time, times and a half. I summarize and embellish some of the problems here:
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm

[Peter]

5.  Near the end of his book he switches up "the bad guy" to be a 10 part division of the globe when the "Scarlet Beast" reigns for 1 hour (he says 15 days; I think he's pushing his 'day for a year' methodology too far).........

Not a switch up. And we can see the leaders of seen and unseen kingdoms working with the beast, just as prophesied. Like George Soros connection to the whole Libya thing. The puppet master and his Islamic armies.

.......... rather than an Islamic Beast, which is clearly the end time invader of Israel, I think because he has convinced himself that there was a great turning point in 1967; have I misunderstood him?

1967 marked the end of the "times of the gentiles" in Jerusalem. It was an unprecedented once in over 2500 years event. I'd call that a great turning point.
Also entering into what Daniel's prophecy calls the "time of the end" when his book became unsealed. Not by the hand of John Nelson Darby, or any other man, but by the simple passage of time confirming two miraculous math problems.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm

Truly there was much I liked; he is very insightful.  I could come up with some other questions, but that's enough for now.

I've got a blog at http://prophesite.wordpress.com/  I waver between historicism and futurism.  I like the continuous fulfillment understanding of scripture, although I don't see myself switching from pre-Mill.

Where is the temple of God? Who built that temple in 3 days, just like He promised He could?
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=552.0

I am firmly post-Trib, ........

Which is rare enough in the futurist church, but more and more are becoming convicted regarding that heresy.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/end_time_myth.htm

..... and I do agree with Skolfield on his understanding that of when the Trib started and that the AoD has occurred.  In my view the AoD basically began with the national Jewish rejection of its Messiah and was made evident with the destruction of the temple and the construction of the DotR.  I do agree the DotR is built on the wrong rock!!

The founding verses of the Dome of the Rock "O you People of the Book, overstep not bounds in your religion, and of God speak only the truth.  The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, is only an apostle of God, and his Word which he conveyed unto Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from him.  Believe therefore in God and his apostles, and say not Three.  It will be better for you.  God is only one God. Far be it from His transcendent majesty that he should have a son."

Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Take care,
Kurt

May God bless you brother, and again, welcome to the forum!

[Kurt J.]

... I look at the DoR as God's prophetic symbol of the end, with the false prophet Muhammad's Islamic kingdom "beast" as the final foe of God's people.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/abomination_of_desolation.htm
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/matthew_24_olivet_discourse.htm#abomination_of_desolation
The "woman" didn't stop fleeing into the wilderness (of the gentile nations) until the beginning of the 19th century when 1200 years of Islamization had ultimately rendered Jerusalem a desolate denuded wasteland, spiritually, physically, and in terms of population of both Jews and Christians.
http://petewaldo.com/zionism.htm

I'm mostly on board with this; however, if Islam arrived in Jerusalem in 639, then 1260 brings us to 1899, not 1948.  Why start with the AoD being set up? 

And if the Jews started arriving in larger numbers in Palestine in the 1820's and 1830's, certainly more than the Arabs, Muslim or Christian, why doesn't that mark the end of the 1260?

I wish there wasn't so much repetition on some of these links... many have a lot of the same info over and over.

As I get time I will certainly watch/read the rest of the links you provided.  No use in giving me too much until I've gotten thru what you've provided so far.

[Peter]

... I look at the DoR as God's prophetic symbol of the end, with the false prophet Muhammad's Islamic kingdom "beast" as the final foe of God's people.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/abomination_of_desolation.htm
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/matthew_24_olivet_discourse.htm#abomination_of_desolation
The "woman" didn't stop fleeing into the wilderness (of the gentile nations) until the beginning of the 19th century when 1200 years of Islamization had ultimately rendered Jerusalem a desolate denuded wasteland, spiritually, physically, and in terms of population of both Jews and Christians.
http://petewaldo.com/zionism.htm

I'm mostly on board with this; however, if Islam arrived in Jerusalem in 639, then 1260 brings us to 1899, not 1948.  Why start with the AoD being set up? 

As I mentioned in the first post, I believe because the DoR is God's prophetic symbol of the end and the final foe of God's people.
As an aside it's funny that the DoR is the only thing north of Medina Saudi Arabia that has anything to do with Islam. The religion of Islam's ONLY claim to the Holy Land.
And the only thing the Dome of the Rock has to do with Islam comes from a tall tale Muhammad told about riding on a flying donkey-mule from Mecca, to Jerusalem, up to "paradise", and back to Mecca by morning. He even lied aboutt having prayed in the temple that had been torn down 500 years before  he lied about praying in it!
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1253.0

And if the Jews started arriving in larger numbers in Palestine in the 1820's and 1830's, certainly more than the Arabs, Muslim or Christian, why doesn't that mark the end of the 1260?

They only began to return then. Jews didn't gain sovereign rule over Israel in 1948, and Jerusalem in 1967, putting them in full control. The end of the "times of the Gentiles" in Jerusalem. Also when they "accomplished {or finished} to scatter the power of the holy people" that is, "ended shattering the strength of the holy people"
The end of the scattered power of the holy people.
As prophesied through Daniel's miraculous "times" problems.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm

I wish there wasn't so much repetition on some of these links... many have a lot of the same info over and over.

Sorry about that. I offered links to the text version from my website as well as those copy and pasted into the forum. I should have stuck with one or the other.
I also noticed that I had a huge duplicate post in there. Again sorry. Should be a touch easier now.

As I get time I will certainly watch/read the rest of the links you provided.  No use in giving me too much until I've gotten thru what you've provided so far.

Maybe I'll go back over it and enlarge the font of the stuff I think most important to help you along.
It's important for you to consider each element as a child would, without including what you are predisposed to assign to things in regard to interpretation, and it will all fall into place a lot more easily.

[Peter]

I have begun to address the subject of amillennialism in another forum, in a thread started by a pre-mill, that might help:
http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.php?97600-My-questions-to-amillennialists-go-unanswered-forever&p=3164568&viewfull=1#post3164568

[Kurt J.]

Hi Peter,

I've watched a couple of videos of Ellis S. and read several papers, but I remain unconvinced about Amil,l and also that his overall interpretational method, "continuous-historic", in any way precludes Pre-Millennialism, which I like.  I have read and watched the Bifid/Chiasm material, which is fascinating.  Again, I see no conflict with the Mill.  I will continue to search and study, but given the overwhelming evidence, particularly OT, of Yeshua's physical presence on Earth ruling from Jerusalem over His people, I am unable to jettison the Mill.  And it is not a new doctrine as of 1640, as I read somewhere in Ellis' or your material over the last few days.  There have been Millennial believers since the early Christian church.

I'm interested in your response.  How do Ellis and you view the OT scriptures that so clearly indicate Yeshua's presence?  Spiritually in His present kingdom?  I don't have the time nor inclination to start listing references which are found easily by a google search on "Millennium", but why don't respond to a few that are the most damaging to A-mill?

Thanks,
Kurt

[Peter]

Hi Peter,

I've watched a couple of videos of Ellis S. and read several papers, but I remain unconvinced about Amil,l and also that his overall interpretational method, "continuous-historic", in any way precludes Pre-Millennialism, which I like.

None of us including Ellis would claim to have a franchise on truth, particularly when it comes to the figurative language of a dream or vision in prophecy. I have spotted earlier references to a thousand year reign as well, but perhaps they weren't as complete or specific as Jean de Labadie's as compared with the way the doctrine is held in today's church, but I don't know. It's unlikely that Ellis didn't notice earlier references during his 83 years of serving the Lord. It might be like a poster in another forum that claimed that because an early church father believed that an "Antichrist" will rule for 1260 days, that it constituted an early reference to half of Darby's future 7-year tribulation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

What do you suppose God's purpose would be for a millennial reign? What's the point in light of Romans chapter 11?
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1582.0
Jesus built His temple in three days, just like he prophesied He would. What would be the purpose of another temple? A restoration of the old covenant?
Which OT passage do you find the most supportive of a rebuilt temple?


1 Corinthians 15:51-52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,  52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

"...the Lord shall descend from heaven..."   
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

"...with the voice of the archangel..."   
Revelation 10:7  But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Revelation 11:15  And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

"... trump of God..."
 1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet [a great trumpet, NASB], and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

[Peter]

I have read and watched the Bifid/Chiasm material, which is fascinating.

It brings such clarity, doesn't it?
A fun story is that after reading Daniel Ellis realized that the book was out of chronological order, and it really bugged him. He prayed over it and prayed over it asking for an answer. Then one day he and his wife were browsing different sections of a Christian book store, and he picked up some big bible almanac, and let it fall open. It opened to a page on chiasms. He went back to Daniel and there it all was. Thus the title of Ellis' first book was "Daniel is Out of Order".

[Kurt J.]

Peter,

Is Skolfield still alive?

Kurt

[Peter]

Peter,

Is Skolfield still alive?

Kurt

Sorry I was out of town for a little bit. Yes he is still alive and currently is doing webinars for groups of pastors. I'll PM you.