chat with nali

[Peter]

In the below nali is writing designating himself as "ME" and Pete as "YOU".

YOU:
[ME:
well let me tell you about the religion of my ancestors, that i grew up very close to, they beleive that there is ONE god, who came in MANY forms on the face of the earth to help man, from every aspect, he came as a man, woman, elephant, and anything else you can possibly think of, .....}}}}}}}}}

(Pete replied)
Well gee. That reads just like the Gospel doesn't it.]

ME:
I havent heard you say you believe that god came as a woman on the face of the earth etc.... so the question is do you believe this to be true as my hindu ancestors have passed on for generations before abraham was even born?
______________________

ME:
I havent heard you say you believe that god came as a woman ......}}}}}}

Nor as an elephant.

{{{{{{{...... on the face of the earth etc.... so the question is do you believe this to be true as my hindu ancestors............ }}}}}

Obviously not since I follow the the 1600 year record of Yahweh to mankind that his people have followed through two covenants for 3500 years.

Pretty foolish question since you already know the answer, even as YOU ARE FULLY AWARE THAT YOU bow 5 times a day to, and travel to and circumambulate, the very same black stone moon/star god idol that the pagan Arabian Quraish circumambulated before Mohammed, and run back and forth between al-safa and al-marwah just as the pagan Arabian jinn worshipers.

And interestingly, the only change that you mentioned that Mohammed added is praying in vain repetitions as the heathen do.

{{{{{{{{{{{ ........ before abraham was even born?}}}}}}}}}}}

God was manifest, or revealed, in the flesh of Yahshua Messiah.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Yahweh, and the Word was Yahweh.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: Elohiym was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twwVjrhagL0

[Peter]

YOU:
Ah yes, the prayers of the heathen. If you told your own earthly father "Dad you are great!", how much more do you think he would appreciate it the 33rd time you repeated it, than the first time you said it?
By the 33rd time he would likely tell you to shut up, wouldn't he.
That's why we were given instruction to pray without ceasing (describing relationship), and were instructed how NOT TO PRAY as well.

Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

You pray in the fashion of the 2nd century occult cult of the Sabians, from whom Mohammed lifted praying 5 times a day and performing ablution. Sorry to break your bubble but he didn't learn it while riding around on a flying donkey-mule.

ME:
Let me think for a second, the day has just started and I am certain that I have commited 100's of sins as it is already from not lowering my gaze to thinking evil thoughts, so if I pray to god for the 33rd time asking him to forgive me is it not better than to sit there and not seek forgivenss giving me opportunity to do more sin?

Since Muslims believe that their prayers may not be heard, even if they simply aren't pointed in the direction of the black stone (pagan moon/star god idol) when they prostrate themselves to it, I would think that praying in what are vain repetitions as Scripture states that the heathen do, might be of some concern.

As for repetition, well there isnt a repetition in prayer so I don't know where you are getting this from.....

What are Islamic prayer beads supposed to keep track of?

[Peter]

there is 114 Chapters of the quran to pick from, so obviously you are not speaking about that, I know you cant be speaking about our repetition of Allahu Akbar for instance which is not a prayer but a glorification which means God is the Greatest, ........

That's quite an admission. This is the very same exclamation that the pagan Arabian's cried of their moon god "Allah", whose idol Muslims still bow to today. This exclamation was used to express that "Allah" the moon god was the greatEST of all the gods and jinn that the pagans worshiped.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1240.0

As I wrote this post I also realized they are stating that Mohammed's "Allah" (NAME of the Arabian pagan moon god - aka satan) is greater than "Yahweh".

[Peter]

....... so what exactly is a repetition in prayer? Islam is complete which makes you sick to your stomach to know because our religion is complete you cannot corrupt our religion from the outside, ..........

That's because Muslims kill Islamic so-called "apostates" that come to know the love of the one true God, while they ban bibles and do everything in their power to kill the 1600 year record of Yahweh to mankind, to entirely replace it with the 23 year 7th century record of Mohammed. The truth can't even set foot in Mecca because non-Muslims are arrested for even being there. Mohammed's followers have slaughtered Yahweh's people for 1400 years, as it continues unto today.

........ and every facet of satan's army tries everything possible to mislead muslims. And for a fact if you were to get a muslim and a hindu to convert on the same day, the person you would give the most attention would be a muslim because it is a victory for you to mislead the truthful.

I have been called to Muslims. Perhaps some day the Lord will use me to reach Hindus.
Without question the the greatest danger to our children, and their children, is Islam.

[Peter]

[[[[YOU:
Even the favorite shout of Mohammedan suicide murderers - ALLAHU AKBAR - means "Allah is the greatER", which for Arabian moon god worshipers meant that the moon god was the most powerful of all of the Arabian Star Family deities.
ME:
According to those that speak arabic the words translate to Allah is the GreatEST, and for certain there is NONE that is greater than God. ........]]]]]

I can see why you tried to pull the change-up.
What you actually proclaim without even realizing it is that Mohammed's "ALLAH" (the name of the pagan Arabian moon god) is greater than "YAHWEH".

[[[[[........ So even with your translation it still does not proove your paganism theory.]]]]

[Peter]

[[[[[YOU:
My friend, you know I wasn't asking about the minutia involved, from Mohammed's repackaging of these pagan rituals.
You also arrive by jet rather than camel.
Perhaps you also stay in motels, though it wouldn't surprise me if the Saudis were so cheap, they made you stay in tents.
It is true that today there is only ONE OF THE PAGAN IDOLS LEFT of the 360 that there were before Mohammed. The very same idol pagans still bow to, 5 times a day.

ME:
You asked me for one new thing that Muhammad added for the Hajj, I gave you one, all of a sudden it is not good enough, .......]]]]

I thought it was great. What Mohammed added were vain repetitions of the heathen.

[[[[[......... you see how corrupted your mind is? And there are no idols in the Kaaba, so I have no idea what you are speaking about, if your attempt is to say the Kaaba is an idol that would be stupid because Bilal(ra) stood ontop of the Kaaba and gave the call for prayer, many scholars have gone INSIDE the kaaba and prayed so obviously if there was any form of reverence to the building that would not happen.]]]]]

Pagan Arabian tradition also holds that Asaf and Naelah, the most venerated priest and priestess of the Arabian jinn religion committed fornication inside the Kaaba, so "Allah" (their moon god) turned them into stone.
Two stone idols representing Asaf and Naelah were placed on al-safa and al-marwah, and after Mohammed's grandfather dug the well of Zamzam he dedicated it to them. So sincere was his worship to the jinn that he nearly sacrificed Mohammed's father to the idols.
Mohammedans, unto this day, still run back and forth between the two hills 7 times, just as the pagan Arabian jinn worshipers did. Indeed pagans and Muslims performed the ceremony shoulder to shoulder. What basic change was made to this ritual besides removal of the idols from al-safa and al-marwah?

[Peter]

[[[[ Even in the hajj if I remember correctly I have seen guards ontop of the building, and to add to all of this the building was demolished and rebulit atleast 3 times after muhammad(Saw)'s death.

And you are so naïve that you don't even know the truth of anything, .......]]]]

My friend it is you that refuses to accept that Mecca did not exist before the 4th century AD.

[[[[[........ you claim that muhammad(saw) repackaged pagan rituals for the Hajj, what if he was correcting the pagan rituals to what it should be?]]]]]

Sure, all roads to Yahweh begin with corrected pagan rituals, don't they?
Sorry my friend but even Mohammed's closest followers hated the rituals fully recognizing that the Umrah wasn't even repackaged.

Asem told us that he said to Uns bin Malek, a companion of Mohammed, "You were hating to encompass around the Safa and Marwa." He answered, "Yes, because it was one of the pagan rites of Jahiliyah until Allah gave a verse that the Safa and Marwa are the rites of Allah. If one makes the Hajj to the Kaabah, he must encompass them. The person has no sin when he encompass them. (Sahih al-Bukhari, 2, page 171)

Exact same pagan ritual, except without the stone idols of Asaf and Naelah.
And I believe Mohammed was correct when he told them that the pagan ritual was that of "Allah", because I understand that Mohammed's "Allah" - the source of his inspiration - is Satan.
The very same Satan that inspired all the rest of the pagan moon, sun, star and demon worship, that Arabians engaged in at all of the kaabas throughout Arabia.

http://www.petewaldo.com/hajj_umrah.htm#al_safa_al_marwah

[Peter]

[[[[[[YOU:
Why Muslims "fast" during the month that begins and ends with a crescent moon?
ME:
Any fool would know that EVERY month has a crecent moon in it but what every fool might not know is that islam follows a LUNAR calendar, which shows the wisdom of god in it if one were to truly be looking for answers.]]]]]

My friend consider how Ramadan begins. (google this for yourself) - ramadan observing the first waxing crescent moon -
It's about OBSERVATION OF WHAT THE MOON IS DOING. That's because Mohammed incorporated the rituals of moon god worshiping pagans into Mohammedanism.

[Peter]

[[[[[YOU:
But the important questions regard the PERFORMANCE offered. Seeking favor of Mohammed's moon god "Allah" through acts of the flesh.

Did the pagans march around the kaaba 7 times?
Did the pagans venerate the same black stone idol that you do?
Did the pagans run back and forth between al safa and al marwah 7 times?
Did the pagans cut their hair in ceremony?
Did the pagans drink from the well of Zamzam that Mohammed's grandfather dug and dedicated to the most venerated priest and priestess of the Arabian jinn religion?
Did the pagans pray at the hill of Mina/Muna/Manat (Allah's daughter)?
Did the pagans clime up Arafa and cry out "Labeik Allahumma Labeik."?
Did the pagans cast stones?

ME:
All of these questions were answered in my last message with the proof from your own bible that your claim of islam copying from the Serbians shows they copied it from the jews which means islam came as Allah said it came to do and that is to guide people back to the truth.]]]]]

When did Yahweh tell the Jews to march around the kaaba 7 times?
When did Yahweh tell the Jews to prostrate themselves to a black stone in Mecca 5 times a day?
When did Yahweh tell the Jews to run back and forth between al-safa and al-marwah 7 times like jinn worshpers?
When did Yahweh tell the Jews to drink from the well of Zamzam that Mohammed's grandfather dug?
When did Yahweh tell the Jews to worship on Manat (Allah's daughter)?
When did Yahweh tell the Jews to climb Arafa and cry "Allah are them, I am here"?
When did Yahweh tell the Jews to throw stones at the devil?

Of course the Jews would have had to travel 1200 kilometers away FROM THEIR OWN TEMPLE, across harsh barren Arabian desert to get to Mecca to do it, 1,500 years before Mecca was established. But hey, details, details, what's wrong with a little pagan Arabian tradition anyway?
Seems that you believe it needed was a little makeover by Mohammed anyway!
After all the pagans must have been on the right track eigh? Well at least that's what Mohammed said.......

[Peter]

{{{{{{{{YOU:
[[[[[........ answer the question about WHAT IS YOUR CONCEPT OF GOD? And don't forget to include your trinitarian concepts, because clearly that is hiduism's grounds.....]]]]]

Don't be silly. According to you their deity even came as elephants and such. As you pointed out it is from their own books - because as you would agree, it certainly isn't from the Gospel.

ME:
WOW, isnt it freeking amazing, the same argument I use against your religion you have now hurled against hinduism... }}}}}}

The problem is that you do it based on the nonsensical, heavily abrogated, 23 year, 7th century record of a murdering, prisoner raping thief that WAS and taught the EXACT OPPOSITE of Yahshua. A "prophet" with no fulfilled prophecy, that never performed a single miracle, who not a single person ever heard "Allah" or Gabriel give one of Mohammed's "revelations" to him, not to mention the ridiculously self-serving nature of his so-called "revelations". All the wives he wanted- but only for him. 1/5 of the property he and his thugs stole from others, just like a Mafia Don. Even a special sura to allow him to steal his stepson's only wife. And such an accommodating god that rape of women captured was OK and even offered instruction on pimping out one's captures sex slaves.

{{{{{{{{...........when I say DON'T BE SILLY YOUR DEITY IS EVEN A MAN, .........}}}}}

Why do you suppose the Hebrew name for the Messiah, Yahshua, means "Yahweh saves"?

{{{{{{........ you get offeneded ........}}}}}

My friend, it isn't me you have to be concerned about offending through your pagan worship of their moon god "Allah". It is the one true God Yahweh who you need to be concerned about offending.

{{{{{....... and tell me WELL MY SCRIPTURES SAY SO, ............}}}}}

Mine do, both through Old Testament prophecy that was written hundreds to a thousand years in advance, as well as the New Testament fulfillment.

{{{{{{............. but because my hindu cousins have the same argument you have now called them silly for their belief, I am glad that you know how I feel about your concept of god.}}}}}}

My friend, from Hinduism to Mohammedan paganism, all you did was jump out of the frying pan, and into the fire.

[Peter]

[[[[[YOU:
This is based on the actual historical record, not 7th and 8th century created Mohammedan historical fiction.
ME:
History is written by men, FACTS are written by God.]]]]]

I see. So you believe there were 66 years to an Arabian generation, just as fervently as you believe that Mohammed rode around on a flying donkey-mule?
How can you imagine an average of 66 years for Arabian generations, from Ishmael to Mohammed, when your own "prophet" was doing a 9 year old?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOXTS9lahKs

[Peter]

{{{{{{{ ME:
All of these questions were answered in my last message with the proof from your own bible that your claim of islam copying from the Serbians shows they copied it from the jews which means islam came as Allah said it came to do and that is to guide people back to the truth.]]]]] }}}}}}

Where did Yahweh instruct the Jews to pray 5 times a day?
Where did Yahweh instruct the Jews to wash 5 times before praying every day?

The Sabians did, and Mohammed and four of his cousins were heavily involved in this 2nd century occult, cult.
That's where he got it. Not from his silly claim of riding around on a flying donkey-mule at night.

But since you can bring no historical or archaeological evidence that Mecca ever existed prior to the 4th century AD, you could pretend to find Mohammedanism and his Mecca till you are blue in the face, but it won't make the whole notion any less preposterous. Why not really think about it, the next time you are praying your vain repetitions, while prostrating yourself to a black stone.

[Peter]

[[[[Daniel 6
10 Now when Daniel learned that the decree had been published, he went home to his upstairs room where the windows opened toward Jerusalem. Three times a day he got down on his knees and prayed, giving thanks to his God, just as he had done before.

Here in yoru bible there was a requirement of 3 daily prayer as perfromed by Daniel.]]]]

There is no "requirement" expressed nor implied.
Nor does it in any way suggest that he prayed in vain repetitions of the heathen.

Any more than the prior example you offered, of Jesus having repeated a prayer three times on a single occasion suggests any doctrine for such, as the Mohammedan/Sabian praying and performing ablution 5 times a day do.

Particularly when scripture describes how to pray.

1Th 5:17 Pray without ceasing.
Describing relationship.

And specifically how not to pray.
Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

[Peter]

[[[[YOU:
Do you believe that Mohammed's "Allah" has a spirit?

Sura 15.29: "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him."

Who is the "I" and so who is the "MY"?

ME:
This is the beauty of being a muslim, the Quran is in arabic, the english translation is an attempt to understand what is being said, and as such if we were to use mulitiple tranlsations of the meaning we get the picture:]]]]]

You know better than to think you could get away with that with me by now. I'll let someone more qualified than I speak for me.

"Gerd Puin, the world's leading specialist in Arabic calligraphy and Qur'anic paleography, studying the oldest manuscripts, speaks with disdain about the willingness of Muslims and non-Muslims alike, to accept Islamic dogma. He says: "The Qur'an claims for itself that it is 'mubeen,' or clear, but if you just look at it, you will see that every fifth sentence or so simply doesn't make sense. Many Muslims will tell you otherwise, but the fact is that a fifth of the Qur'an is just incomprehensible. This is what has caused the traditional anxiety regarding translation. If the Qur'an is not comprehensible, if it can't even be understood in Arabic, then it's not translatable into any language. That is why Muslims are afraid."

[Peter]

YOU
Who is the "I" and so who is the "MY"?

ME:
This is the beauty of being a muslim, the Quran is in arabic, the english translation is an attempt to understand what is being said, and as such if we were to use mulitiple tranlsations of the meaning we get the picture:

Ahmed Raza Khan: Mohammed Aqib Qadri:
"Therefore when I have properly fashioned him and breathed into him a chosen noble soul from Myself, fall down before him in prostration."
Yusuf Ali:
"When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him."
Pickthal:
So, when I have made him and have breathed into him of My Spirit, do ye fall down, prostrating yourselves unto him.

So we see that what God is saying is that he chose a soul and placed it into man. See how simple that was?]]]]

Indeed I do. The translations you cited along with these

SHAKIR: So when I have made him complete and breathed into him of My spirit, fall down making obeisance to him.
(Asad) 15:29 and when I have formed him fully and breathed into him of my spirit, fall down before him in prostration! [26]

Overwhelmingly have Mohammed's "Allah" declaring that he has a spirit. That he imparts into man.
Mohammed likely got the concept either from his tri-lingual secretary, one of his wives or concubines that had exposure to Christianity or Judaism, or from Jabr, because the concept is lifted from this verse.

Exd 31:3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,

Here all your arguing you pretend to get your religion from Jews, yet you reject the Spirit of God. Don't you see how ridiculous it is for Mohammed's followers to search the scriptures for Mohammed, when the only place he is mentioned is in the Scriptures that warn of false prophets?

You know as well as I, that you refuse to admit to the obvious, in these surahs is because you realize that to recognize that "Allah" has a spirit as the surahs proclaim, as Jews and Christians understand about our Yahweh, would make you a polytheist as you accuse Christians according to your false prophet.
It would make you a bi-iterian hypocrite! :-)

[Peter]

[[[[[YOU:
But the important questions regard the PERFORMANCE offered. Seeking favor of Mohammed's moon god "Allah" through acts of the flesh.

Did the pagans march around the kaaba 7 times?
Did the pagans venerate the same black stone idol that you do?
Did the pagans run back and forth between al safa and al marwah 7 times?
Did the pagans cut their hair in ceremony?
Did the pagans drink from the well of Zamzam that Mohammed's grandfather dug and dedicated to the most venerated priest and priestess of the Arabian jinn religion?
Did the pagans pray at the hill of Mina/Muna/Manat (Allah's daughter)?
Did the pagans clime up Arafa and cry out "Labeik Allahumma Labeik."?
Did the pagans cast stones?

ME:
All of these questions were answered in my last message with the proof from your own bible that your claim of islam copying from the Serbians shows they copied it from the jews which means islam came as Allah said it came to do and that is to guide people back to the truth.]]]]]

When did Yahweh tell the Jews to march around the kaaba 7 times?
When did Yahweh tell the Jews to prostrate themselves to a black stone in Mecca 5 times a day?
When did Yahweh tell the Jews to run back and forth between al-safa and al-marwah 7 times like jinn worshpers?
When did Yahweh tell the Jews to drink from the well of Zamzam that Mohammed's grandfather dug?
When did Yahweh tell the Jews to worship on Manat (Allah's daughter)?
When did Yahweh tell the Jews to climb Arafa and cry "Allah are them, I am here"?
When did Yahweh tell the Jews to throw stones at the devil?

Of course the Jews would have had to travel 1200 kilometers away FROM THEIR OWN TEMPLE, across harsh barren Arabian desert to get to Mecca to do it, 1,500 years before Mecca was established. But hey, details, details, what's wrong with a little pagan Arabian tradition anyway?
Seems that you believe it needed was a little makeover by Mohammed anyway!
After all the pagans must have been on the right track eigh? Well at least that's what Mohammed said.......

YOU:
When did Yahweh tell the Jews to march around the kaaba 7 times?
When did Yahweh tell the Jews to prostrate themselves to a black stone in Mecca 5 times a day?
When did Yahweh tell the Jews to run back and forth between al-safa and al-marwah 7 times like jinn worshpers?
When did Yahweh tell the Jews to drink from the well of Zamzam that Mohammed's grandfather dug?
When did Yahweh tell the Jews to worship on Manat (Allah's daughter)?
When did Yahweh tell the Jews to climb Arafa and cry "Allah are them, I am here"?
When did Yahweh tell the Jews to throw stones at the devil?

Of course the Jews would have had to travel 1200 kilometers away FROM THEIR OWN TEMPLE, across harsh barren Arabian desert to get to Mecca to do it, 1,500 years before Mecca was established. But hey, details, details, what's wrong with a little pagan Arabian tradition anyway?
Seems that you believe it needed was a little makeover by Mohammed anyway!
After all the pagans must have been on the right track eigh? Well at least that's what Mohammed said.......


ME:
The Jews could not even keep the religion of god pure that they innovated and introduced to the religion. The continually killed the prophets of god, as they did with John the Baptist and attempted to do to Jesus, also for the JEWS god had ordained the temple in Jerusalem.

however islam came for MANKIND not for the JEWS but for every human being, and as such the place of gathering went back to the original place of worship for Abraham not the land of the jews but the land for mankind.

[Peter]

The reply speaks so well for itself I don't think I need to add anything.
Particularly since nali has not presented any pre-fourth century historical or archaeological record, to suggest that Mecca ever existed before pagan immigrants from Yemen built it around the 4th century AD.