Time, times and dividing of times

[Gdsan]

Hey Pete,

I'm doing some research on the above topic and have read Islam in The End times by Ellis which is a great book!!  I have a question regarding time, times and dividing of times which equals 2500 years.  I see the logic as well as the end result.  My question is how he gets to that conclusion by taking and OT hebrew word for time by giving it a Greek meaning for time which is hemera as found in 2Peter 3:8?

Ellis has said that we don't use OT proof when we have a NT definition to something and vice versa and maybe I'm answering my own question now since day and year are defined in OT but time is not defined in the OT.  I hope I'm not being confusing but I was hoping you can shed further light on this for me.

Thanks as always and God bless

Gordon

[Peter]

Please indulge me while I preface a little for folks less familiar with the math problems.

I encapsulate several of Ellis' problems on this web page, with lots of supporting links, if you ever want a handy reference to send to friends.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm

Here's an in-forum version from in the "continuous-historic context" category. You'd probably enjoy spending a little time in that category.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=77.0

(KVJ)  Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that [it shall be] for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these [things] shall be finished.

Here's the verse from a version of the Tanach from a Jewish website.
Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clad in linen, who was above the waters of the river, and he raised his right hand and his left hand to the heavens, and he swore by the Life of the world, that in the time of [two] times and a half, and when they have ended shattering the strength of the holy people, all these will end.
http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=16495

Where does the KJV came up with the plural on the second "time" from? It's certainly not apparent in Strong's definitions.
http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm

that [it shall be] for a time
Old Testament Hebrew Definition:
04150 mow`ed {mo-ade'} or mo`ed {mo-ade'} or (fem.) mow`adah
(2 Chr 8:13) {mo-aw-daw'}
from 03259; TWOT - 878b; n m
AV - congregation 150, feast 23, season 13, appointed 12, time 12,
assembly 4, solemnity 4, solemn 2, days 1, sign 1, synagogues 1; 223
1) appointed place, appointed time, meeting
1a) appointed time
1a1) appointed time (general)
1a2) sacred season, set feast, appointed season
1b) appointed meeting
1c) appointed place
1d) appointed sign or signal
1e) tent of meeting

times
Old Testament Hebrew Definition:
04150 mow`ed {mo-ade'} or mo`ed {mo-ade'} or (fem.) mow`adah
(2 Chr 8:13) {mo-aw-daw'}
from 03259; TWOT - 878b; n m
AV - congregation 150, feast 23, season 13, appointed 12, time 12,
assembly 4, solemnity 4, solemn 2, days 1, sign 1, synagogues 1; 223
1) appointed place, appointed time, meeting
1a) appointed time
1a1) appointed time (general)
1a2) sacred season, set feast, appointed season
1b) appointed meeting
1c) appointed place
1d) appointed sign or signal
1e) tent of meeting

and an half
Old Testament Hebrew Definition:
02677 chetsiy {khay-tsee'}
from 02673; TWOT - 719b; n m
AV - half 108, midst 8, part 4, midnight + 03915, middle 1; 125
1) half
1a) half
1b) middle

As you know from reading Ellis' book, when we look to the New Testament we find the verse

2 Peter 3:8  But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The Greek word that is translated as "day" in the above verse is "hemera".  This is an ambiguous word whose definition is determined by it's context.  
In 3 other passages in the KJV it is translated as "time" (in 12 verses in the NASB).

From Strong's:
New Testament Greek Definition:
2250 hemera {hay-mer'-ah}
from (with 5610 implied) of a derivative of hemai (to sit,
akin to the base of 1476) meaning tame, i.e. gentle;
TDNT - 2:943,309; n f
AV - day 355, daily + 2596 15, time 3, not tr 2, misc 14; 389

So if the Lord had meant for the Hebrew idiom translated as "time" to be as a thousand years:

Then 2-1/2 "times" =  2500 years, which forms the basis of these two problems that work out in perfect parallel over the course of 2,500 years to peg the restoration of the Jews to their land in 1948 and 1967, and they even work out textually.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm
1967 also marked the end of the "times of the Gentiles" in Jerusalem mentioned in Luke 21:24
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/matthew_24_olivet_discourse.htm#times_gentiles

Finally, in answer to what I think your question is.

Ellis has said that we don't use OT proof when we have a NT definition to something and vice versa...

Maybe you could provide us with a quote in that regard.
In this case there is no OT "proof" (better choice may have been OT "definition"). I have had discussions with even some radically "anti-missionary" Jews in their forum, and while they understand it as a factor of 2-1/2 periods of time, they freely admit that their scriptures are silent on just what the length of that period of time is.

Ellis leaves the Hebrew term translated as "time" intact in the Old Testament idiom.
Then in the verse from the New Testament, the translators translated "hemera" as "time" 3 times in the KJV and 12 in the NASB.

This presents the possibility that the definition of the term "time" may be found in the New Testament. Because the New Testament is where we find the possible definition, we apply the first century Julian calendar (which is effectively the same as our solar calendar over the span of 2500 years), rather than the prophetic Hebrew calendar that we apply to strictly Old Testament math problems.

The question is WHAT IF the Lord had meant that a "time" is as a thousand years, and then when we apply the math to historical pins of "first year of Belshazzar" and "3rd year of Cyrus", it would seem that is undeniably what the Lord meant, since it is a virtual impossibility that these two problems could work out in perfect parallel over 2500 years, by accident.

I think it's a wonderful addition to the fulfillment of the following...

Ezekiel 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and [for] all the house of Israel his companions: 17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

....since the solution arose through combining the Old and New Testament scriptures to the math. I believe these two problems confirm more than any others that the book of Daniel is unsealed, and we find ourselves in his "time of the end", since not a single soul could have calculated the solutions to these problems, prior to 1948 and 1967 restoration of the Jews to their land and city.

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

In context that reference to "knowledge" is of the book of Daniel. Here's how Matthew Henry excitedly foresaw the times we find ourselves in.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm#matthew_henry
Isaac Newton too
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm#isaac_newton

God followed this up with a crystal clear statement of fact:
Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words [are] closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
________________________

PS Regarding the plural, the same goes for the Aramaic in the second instance of this idiom (Daniel used two languages addressing Jews and Gentiles)

a time
Old Testament Hebrew Definition:
05732 `iddan (Aramaic) {id-dawn'}
from a root corresponding to that of 05708; TWOT - 2900; n m
AV - time 13; 13
1) time
1a) time (of duration)
1b) year and times

times
Old Testament Hebrew Definition:
05732 `iddan (Aramaic) {id-dawn'}
from a root corresponding to that of 05708; TWOT - 2900; n m
AV - time 13; 13
1) time
1a) time (of duration)
1b) year