Impressions of England from a friend of our ministry.

[Peter]

[[[[I'm sorry I have to ask you this, but I'm having such TERRIBLE luck getting my question answered with Searches and site explorations; and trying to pose it at Catholic Answers site.]]]]

Often those that actually read the bible find so much contradiction to their "traditions" they leave Roman Catholicism. That's what the reformation was all about. Finally, because of the printing press, folks had access to the scriptures themselves, rather than Roman Catholic doctrine being fed to them.
That's how the Crusades went so wrong. ALL of the guys who went out to fight were completely ignorant to scripture as the only scripture they ever heard recited was in Latin - a language they didn't know. Then then a bunch of men with no authority to do so, promised the warriors absolution for life if they went on the crusades. So how are men supposed to act if they believe that men can assign them absolution from God for life, except to engage in rape, pillage and plunder!

I don't mind helping out because it often raises questions that I then realize I should cover in my websites and videos. However this would be a lot better if you raised these questions in the forum as there are more hands to help. I understand if you are shy though.

[[[[No response from any "helpful apologiest" for 72 hours!

If you know a person or site i could visit then PLEASE by all means, direct me there so I will not take up your time.

I've read half of an INTRODUCTION TO CHRISTIANITY book, now I need to read the Bible to Understand Christian (general) Doctrine. And I want to give the Hebrew Scriptures sufficient attention unlike I know some others do.]]]]

The Koine Greek term translated as "testament" is also translated as "covenant". The Jews could not keep the law of the old covenant. Even today it is impossible for them to keep something like 1/3 of the law, without a temple in Jerusalem that was torn down in 70AD - every stone - just as Jesus had prophesied. Lighting one path to God in this new covenant era (though God Himself blinded some Jews to the Gospel, perhaps so they wouldn't be guilty of sinning against it).
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/matthew_24_olivet_discourse.htm#matt_24_1

Because God's people couldn't keep the law even back when they had a temple the Lord inspired the old testament prophet Jeremiah to prophesy of a new covenant.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Sent with "The Old Covenant"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0VnWjnoZDM

[Peter]

Rather than the continuous blood sacrifice on the alter in the temple (of Solomon (burned and later rebuilt under Herod)) for remission of sin under the old covenant....

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh [is] in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it [is] the blood [that] maketh an atonement for the soul.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm

.... Jesus ushered in the new covenant through His ONE sacrifice and atoning blood for remission of sin through His crucifixion, death and resurrection.

Hbr 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Jesus' people ARE the temple of God in this new covenant era.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/temple_of_god.htm

(remember you can go straight to a text version in the forum by clicking on the first link below all my videos)

Sent with "THE TEMPLE OF GOD"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMXGmHiNUyU

[Peter]

[[[[ I would appreciate a list of the most essential books & parts-of-books to read in order to understand Christianity IN GENERAL and (Christian Perspective) the Judaism it came from.

I'm just a regular non-Christian person: I do not have time for the full Bible. Later this year I won't have time to give studies the attention I'd like, unlike now.

I'm aware that if I read one full Gospel, it should be Matthew.]]]]

I would recommend the Gospel of John rather than Matthew, and others recommend Mark. Indeed a single tract of Mark translated into a South American tribes tongue brought the whole village to the Lord.

I did a little bolding in this KJV Gospel of John for Muslims:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/first_epistle_john.htm

[[[[I'm also aware:

Law of Moses: DEUT. 5: 6-21
Sermon on the Mount MATT. 5-7]]]]

Also the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24) is a very widely cited and important (and perhaps contentious because of doctrine) passage. I had to exegete it on my own in efforts to understand it in the traditional continuous-historic context.

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/matthew_24_olivet_discourse.htm

[[[[[Ezekiel 11:19-21 (The New Israel 40-48)
Paul 1 Corinthians 15 (Resurrection)]]]]

I excerpted the heart of this event in this forum thread. You only need to read the first post.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1175.0

[[[[[...and so on and so on.

I need a completion of that list from one who knows.

If the answer to this question will help potential Muslim converts, .......]]]]

I think it is important for them to understand they are isolated from God's people because they follow the false prophet Muhammad. And with Muhammad changing their "holy" day from Saturday (the Sabbath) to Friday it's ridiculous for them to believe Muhammad's cult has anything to do with the old covenant law - which is what they like to claim. Where does the old covenant tell folks to prostrate to a black stone idol in Mecca 5 times a day? The whole notion is not only ridiculous, but is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what is revealed in the old and new Testaments which condemn all forms idolatry. (including Roman Catholic statues and Orthodox icons)

[[[[....... I'll lift and re-word my question for the Forum, put it in the part that you deem best, then you can answer there.]]]]

Best place to do so and then more folks can address your questions.

[[[[You are so deep into your Christianity you do not realize what a post-graduate, Abraham-ignorant audience Muslim or not might really want or need to read.]]]]

I think that the sheer volume (hundreds) of verses that proclaim Jesus the Son of God and God His Father should be (but it isn't) enough to isolate them. They are all bible ignorant so I think these facts must come as complete surprises. I removed the hundreds of verses from context and listed the germane verses in video and forum and websites.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=611.0
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=610.0

[[[[I tried answering this question 10 years ago in University but I could never uphold the Christian Classes and had to keep dropping them. At least I kept a couple books!

The next thing I want to do after this is look at Islam.]]]]

A single verse from the Quran should help anyone understand that Satan's prophet Muhammad proclaimed the exact opposite of the whole subject of the Gospel and the new covenant - the crucifixion, death and resurrection of the Messiah who saves all from sin who have faith in His shed blood.

Surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

Islam is an ANTI-RELIGION. Muhammad filled his followers with complete resolve as to what to DISbelieve, to DENY and to REJECT. How many religions do that? This is how it's easy to see (besides prostrating to a pagan black stone idol in Mecca 5 times a day!) that Islam is nothing more than an antichrist cult that follows a false prophet that spoke for Satan.

So not surprisingly, the most egregious, and ONLY UNPARDONABLE SIN according to Muhammad, is committed if a Muslim confesses that Jesus is the Son of God.

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of the world. 15 Whosoever shall confess that JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

Sura 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 INDEED YE HAVE PUT FORTH A THING MOST MONSTROUS!

Perhaps the most important and widely quoted verse from the Gospel of the Messiah, Yeshua (whose Hebrew name means YHWH saves)

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Surah 9.29 FIGHT THOSE who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (EVEN if they are) of THE PEOPLE OF THE BOOK, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. 30 THE JEWS CALL 'UZAIR A SON OF ALLAH, AND THE CHRISTIANS CALL CHRIST THE SON OF ALLAH. That is a saying from their mouth; (In this) they but imitate what the Unbelievers of old used to say. ALLAH'S CURSE BE ON THEM: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

1John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? HE IS ANTICHRIST, THAT DENIETH the Father and THE SON. 23 WHOSOEVER DENIETH THE SON, THE SAME HATH NOT THE FATHER: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].

1John 5:10 He that BELIEVETH ON THE SON OF GOD hath the witness in himself: HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT GOD HATH MADE HIM A LIAR; because HE BELIEVED NOT THE RECORD that God gave OF HIS SON.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT THE SON SHALL NOT SEE LIFE, BUT THE WRATH OF GOD ABIDETH ON HIM.

[[[[[I can't read the Koran right now every time I try I get tired. I need to understand Christianity first.

My next Christian Query after this is understanding and memorizing those fulfilled prophecies you mentioned and taking them to an Atheist Forum I joined to see if they can adequately (important qualifier) explain it away.]]]]

You will always find arguments against the scriptures. Even those that try to argue against the archaeological evidence. Even from those unsaved (academic liberals) that believe themselves to be in the "church" but view scripture as nothing more than a collection of stories and fables. Like the story of King David's palace has always been considered fiction by such unregenerate types yet it was very recently discovered.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2964.0

Archaeology continually reinforces the scriptures as a reliable record of ancient history.

[[[[ I don't worship present Science but they do.]]]]

Indeed they do.

[[[[ If you know a good site for this (I've had such little success) I'd welcome going there instead of bothering you.

Thank you very much!

Peace,

Artemidorus

PS: Muslim teenagers in the West tucked infront of their laptops could take your "Bible Guide" and use it to read free online Bibles, so I don't think the answer would be out-of-place on your forum.]]]]]

We can copy and paste this whole chat into the forum, and develop it in there. Then the hours spent will perhaps be of benefit to others. Would that be OK?

[[[[Nonetheless you know your Forum, I don't so please don't take that the wrong way. :-)]]]]

There are no topics related to Christianity and Judaism that are out of place. We just don't like folks copy and pasting a bunch of other people's words, that they are unable to defend, themselves.

Agnostics and atheists - besides all the evidence - have to ask themselves what the odds are of it being AN ACCIDENT, that 1/4 of mankind associate themselves with Christianity, while another imperialistic, murderous, 1/4 of mankind, associate themselves with the antichrist cult of THE false prophet Muhammad. (but even liberals in the "church" can't see this and even invite imams into their institutions to "build bridges" (to hell!)). HOW CAN THERE BE RECONCILING OF EXACT OPPOSITES?

Sent with "Quran proclaims the EXACT OPPOSITE of Gospel"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCE_sti-uZc

[apollodorus]

Thank you very much.

So far here is our list:

LAW OF MOSES  DEUT. 5:6-21
EZEKIEL 11:19-21 (NEW HEART)
EZEKIEL 40-48 (THE NEW ISRAEL)

SERMON ON THE MOUNT  MATT. 5-7
MATT. 24 (OLIVET DISCOURSE)
PAUL 1 CORINTHIANS 15 (RESURRECTION)

Please provide more reading excerpts from the Hebrew Scriptures to help us understand the shape and direction of Christianity IN GENERAL. I pose this question from a standpoint of (exaggerated) secular ignorance, an ignorance shared by many Muslims too, so please do not forget to include excessively obvious ones like "Genesis---which books!?!?!", the tasty and essential parts of Exodus, so on and so forth.

I am looking for substantial but NOT overly long reading, not little lines and passages that are meant to prove conclusions irrefutably. We are seeking Knowledge. Thank you very much, all of us out here appreciate it a great deal. :-)

Essential Bible Readings should be a section all its own I think, but you know what is best I don't. Peace. :-)

[Peter]

Essential Bible Readings should be a section all its own I think, but you know what is best Idon't. Peace. :-)

When I considered which category to place it in I did notice that while we do have a section for the Quran and Hadith we don't have a separate section for the bible. We have so many categories I hate to add more but I may should add that one. Actually every category is essentially a bible category since all topics include so much scripture.

[apollodorus]

SERMON ON THE MOUNT  MATT. 5-7
MATT. 24 (OLIVET DISCOURSE)
PAUL 1 CORINTHIANS 15 (RESURRECTION)

...alright thank you much. :-)

Now what about more of Paul, what are the essential parts of the essential letters please?

I'm aware there are some other bits of Corinthians, then Romans (which parts?), plus there's something in Hebrews that's essential.

That's all I remember from my class years ago, there is probably one or two other things from his other letters too. THANK YOU SO MUCH!

[Peter]

Now what about more of Paul, what are the essential parts of the essential letters please?

I'm aware there are some other bits of Corinthians, then Romans (which parts?), plus there's something in Hebrews that's essential.

For a lot of folks in here Paul helps us understand the disposition of God's chosen people in this Christian era.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1582.0

A quick Yahoo turned up some apologetics regarding Paul here:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/first/missions.html

[apollodorus]

Alright thank you. Here is our list so far:

LAW OF MOSES  DEUT. 5:6-21
EZEKIEL 11:19-21 (NEW HEART)
EZEKIEL 40-48 (THE NEW ISRAEL)
HOSEA 2
PSALM 105
SERMON ON THE MOUNT  MATT. 5-7
MATT. 24 (OLIVET DISCOURSE)
PAUL 1 CORINTHIANS 15 (RESURRECTION)
PAUL 2 CORINTHIANS
ROMANS 11-16
HEBREWS 9

*Next: Father-Son-Holy Spirit. How about the Trinitarian Nature of your YHWH as revealed in the New Testament? There are some selections from ACTS I'm sure. And more beyond Acts please...  :-)

[Peter]

*Next: Father-Son-Holy Spirit. How about the Trinitarian Nature of your YHWH as revealed in the New Testament? There are some selections from ACTS I'm sure. And more beyond Acts please...  :-)

The "trinity" is revealed through hundreds of verses in the Gospel, that regard God the Father, His Son, and the Holy Spirit as per the following thread on the subject and links that it includes.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1345.0

[Peter]

The 2 videos I finally succeeded in uploading at ZippCast have been removed from my channel.
http://www.zippcast.com/user/PeteWaldo
Kinda figured it might go that way being based in England and with England increasingly in the grip of Islam.
And it looks to me like YouTube died too. I get virtually no increases in number views on videos, and all but 1 or 2 "contact" invites have been from those with commercial ambitions.

[Dave2]

There seems to be much about the New Testament you don't know in terms of its development.
You probably don't even know that there is not a single epistle where the writer called Paul mentions his name of Saul or that he studied under Rabban Gamliel in Jerusalem when Jesus would have been an active preacher, making not the slightest reference to knowing about him despite both men being the same age.
You probably don't know how various manuscripts indicate changes in verses in GMark and other gospels. Or that the first text to discuss the doctrine of the trinity is Tertullian.
Or that the author of the epistles contradicts himself, so clearly as in Galatians itself when he first says that Christ revealed himself to him but then says that God did it after he was separated from the womb despite the fact of other apostles who existed before him and who never had the revelation from the Christ.

[Peter]

Reacting in just the same fashion as Muslims do when they refuse to engage in exchange, after having been warned they are going to be given a time-out for it, Dave offered yet another non-response on the subject thread and then dashed over here to post within 4 minutes, on a thread unrelated to any we have had discussions on to date, to post what he must have thought was a message of some import. The very same MO as Muslims.

There seems to be much about the New Testament you don't know in terms of its development.
You probably don't even know that there is not a single epistle where the writer called Paul mentions his name of Saul or that he studied under Rabban Gamliel in Jerusalem when Jesus would have been an active preacher, making not the slightest reference to knowing about him despite both men being the same age.
You probably don't know how various manuscripts indicate changes in verses in GMark and other gospels. Or that the first text to discuss the doctrine of the trinity is Tertullian.
Or that the author of the epistles contradicts himself, so clearly as in Galatians itself when he first says that Christ revealed himself to him but then says that God did it after he was separated from the womb despite the fact of other apostles who existed before him and who never had the revelation from the Christ.

So Dave, why this thread? You trying to persuade our atheist friend to join your tiny anti-Zionist Jew hating cult, so that he too can run with Nazis, skinheads, Muslims and the KKK like you?
You think apollodorus would witness your insistence on maintaining self-imposed blindness to a mathematical miracle, but then believe you could have something of value to share with him?

Apollodorus, it's important to understand that for a Jew to recognize Jesus as his Messiah, things go almost as tragically for him as they do for Muslims, that come to Christ. In the Jew's case his family and friends may throw a funeral for him, even though he is perfectly healthy, because he is the same as dead to them! Basically disowned by friends and family not unlike those in Jehovah's Witness and other cults. Thus all of his study must begin with the ironclad premise that Jesus is not our Messiah and work backwards from there in efforts to reinforce his denial. Yet surely even Dave must wonder why God only allowed what he freely admits is his tiny little sliver, of the miniscule 2/10 of 1% of the total world population of Jews, the sole franchise on God's truth. This even as the traditions of men he admits to following, who he puts in authority over him, have him in league with some of the most black-hearted, reprobate, racist, anti-Zionist anti-Semitic bigots on the planet. Yet all he offered was this feeble and utterly failed defense of why he finds himself in such company. Just as Jesus declared of his ilk almost 2,000 years ago:

Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

A person only needs to consider the logic in the second group verses, to understand the conspicuous truth, and recall common secular wisdom such as "birds of a feather flock together". As bad as all that is, Dave even seems to hate God, for having followed through with exactly what He promised He would do.

Dave, apparently you didn't know that the reason apollodorus is here is precisely because he has seen the hearts of the people that come against Jerusalem and wouldn't be caught dead on their side. He has lived in a Muslim neighborhood in England and well understands what has happened to the humanity of the followers of Muhammad that you support, directly against the freedom that the Israeli Arabs enjoy, the vast majority of whom are in favor of the Israeli democracy and constitution. Those Israeli Arab residents, that have enjoyed peaceful and mutually beneficial relations with Israeli Jews, for the last two hundred years. http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3275.0

http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2795.0
"In contrast, a poll of 507 Arab-Israelis conducted by the Israeli Democracy Institute in 2007 found that 75 percent profess support for Israel's status as a Jewish and democratic state which guarantees equal rights for minorities. Israeli Arab support for a constitution in general was 88 percent.[31]"

Thus YOU SIDE WITH MUHAMMAD'S CULT ALONE Dave, in Islamic conquest of Israel, toward the institution of Islamic sharia law, to turn Israel into just another female circumcising, child doing, multiple wife and concubine beating, Christian beheading, Islamist terrorist slave state.

Do we have to wonder how Dave would feel if his wife was forced to conform to an Islamic dress code anytime she was in public? This is the ultimate expression, since whichever Islamic sect that is the most willing to cut the heads off of whatever other sect that they judge "apostate", are who will be the ultimate rulers of Muhammad's cult.



"Christians can only continue living safely in the Gaza Strip if they accept Islamic law, including a ban on alcohol and on women roaming publicly without proper head coverings,..."
"The militant leader said Christians in Gaza who engage in "missionary activity" will be "dealt with harshly."
"I expect our Christian neighbors to understand the new Hamas rule means real changes. They must be ready for Islamic rule if they want to live in peace in Gaza,"
"Also the activities of Internet cafes, pool halls and bars must be stopped," he said. "If it goes on, we'll attack these things very harshly."

Dave, I believe apollodorus is also a champion of Israeli Jews and Arabs right to freedom and self-determination, as well as to religious and all other liberties they currently enjoy, and for their right to be left alone to continue their personal pursuits of happiness. I presume that he would agree that if a enemy interferes with that freedom, then he would champion their right to defend themselves and communities from the aggressors, to restore the peace. Exactly the opposite of you and your ilk that work to advance the Islamic conquest and subjugation of Israeli Jews, Christians and Arabs, that all just want to be left alone to live in peace.
While apollodorus is a self-described atheist he also knows enough about the Christian's God of the Gospel to know He is about love and not hate. Ah but then so is the God of faithful Jews, like the faithful Jews that happen to live in Israel, and champion its democracy that allows them the freedom to continue to worship in peace.

In other words our English friend understands from what he sees around him, that if he did believe in God, the last thing he would want to be caught dead doing, is supporting the side of those that advance the Islamic conquest of God's people.
Yet somehow you seem to believe that a bunch of antichrist blather that springs from your personal efforts to DISbelieve, will somehow be persuasive when compared to that of folks who study these subjects.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2572.0

That somehow all that fulfilled prophecy that apollodorus has had a glimpse of, that is even proclaimed as fulfilled throughout the Gospel - by the Gospel itself - would somehow be nullified by your personal indoctrination into blindness. Anyone can make excuses for themselves to disbelieve anything Dave.

Because of your failure to respond in the other thread you have 5 days off to compose answers.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3238.msg13778#msg13778
When you return you will be limited to that thread until we exhaust it and then we can move forward with the list of unanswered posts as per the instructions there.

[nicerperson]

I would like to comment about this perception of hatred by the member.

Please bear with me as I give some personal history first, I think it is relevant.

I was brought up to be involved with the supernatural from a small child, my own mother got me involved with Satanists who "groomed" me in Tarot, Palmistry, spell casting etc. I also saw spirits.

This is just to let you know, I have been involved in supernatural events for a long time. I didn't become a Christian until 1985 aged 30. After I got saved and had been a few years a Christian, I received a gift (please try and accept I didn't go crazy!  ) it was a gift of discerning spirits. It was pretty weird, I started experiencing days when I would be just walking from A to B and I would see some people, adults, even little kids, would either turn around, or just turn their heads and stare at me with a look of cold hatred. It was pretty unnerving at first.

I eventually realised that I got a sort of intuition and could pick up on people that had spiritual problems or were afflicted by the supernatural; this came in most useful when I joined a ministry team helping people from occult or cultic backgrounds.

The relevance of this is that with the rise in the number of Muslims in Glasgow, then in Leeds, I noticed it more and more with them.

It may just be an enhancement of picking up body language, but I am convinced it is more than that.

The member, who saw this hatred, may not be a Christian, but that does not preclude him having an extra sense, or supernatural gift of discernment.

I wonder if others that he knew at the time, experienced this emanation of hatred as much as he did, or was he perhaps a great deal more sensitive to picking up these vibes.

Don't forget, the supernatural is real, not Just Christians are exposed to it or are sensitive to it. I had supernatural insights and could tell fortunes etc. years before I renounced all that and was born again.

I saw a film once with Denzil Washington, where he is a cop hunting down a spirit that moved from an executed murderer to person to person - the sort of looks he (the cop) received from ordinary passers by is very similar to the incidents that happen to me - the look can be there and fiercely evil - only to disappear the next moment as if it had never happened.

Please don't send for the men in white coats! I promise to come quietly! 

[nicerperson]

In reply to Craig -

there is some light at the end of the tunnel, David Cameron is bringing in a law, that any immigrant living here, must be in full time employment and earning a minimum of £18,500 in order to support a home and family - if they don't? no entry to families  or relatives.

I can see this being slated by those who believe the state owes the a living and will consider this to be "racial discrimination" bu I think it is a damn good idea.