Author Topic: Authors of the Quran  (Read 8202 times)

Peter

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Authors of the Quran
« on: March 02, 2012, 10:48:48 AM »
Muslim Eastern History teacher on the historicity of Mecca and authors of the hadith.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2859.0

Authors of the Quran
http://inthenameofallah.org/Authors%20of%20the%20Quran.html

Inspiration or plagiarism? http://www.youtube.com/user/allahaleg

To answer to the doubters of his inspiration, because of the conspicuous absence of witnesses or other proof of inspiration, Mohammed provided yet another sura for damage control:

Sura 9.127 Whenever there cometh down a Sura, they look at each other, (saying), "Doth anyone see you?" Then they turn aside: Allah hath turned their hearts (from the light); for they are a people that understand not.

Inspiration of the Quran

Amazingly, even some of today's Muslims look upon Mohammed's illiteracy as some sort of miracle. To non-Muslims illiteracy is usually a reflection of someone's mental incapacity or lack of education. Certainly a far cry from the very literate prophets and apostles that wrote the Gospel over 6 centuries earlier.
How those men died:
http://www.homecomers.org/mirror/martyrs010.htm#67
In stark contrast to those men:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MG1MiLqH0jc
The Word of God
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/gospel_of_john.htm

But the fact that Mohammed was illiterate certainly didn't mean he was blind and deaf. He traveled a lot in his first wife's business and also with his uncle as a child, so there was no lack of exposure. Later on he was surrounded by many that knew about Judaism and Christianity including wives and concubines.

"From a number of Islamic books we gather that Mohammed was surrounded by many Christians - even if nominal. One of them was Waraqa ibn Naufal, the cousin of Khadija, Mohammed's wife. One of his wives, Umm Habbibah, was formerly the wife of a Christian, Ubaidu'llah ibn Jahsh. Another wife of Mohammed, Miriam, and her sister, Sirin, were Christian slaves given to Muhammad. Biographer Ibn Ishaq records that Abdu'llah ibn Salam (one of the bestt reciters of the Qur'an) was a seasoned Jewish Rabbi before he became a Muslim and personal friend of Muhammad." (Anatomy of the Quran by G.J.O. Moshay)

But perhaps the most valuable source of Mohammed's rehashed Jewish and Arabic fables and pseudo-Christian suras was a friend of his named Jabr. An ex"Christian" that converted to Islam. Indeed so often did Mohammed have a "revelation" after meeting with his friend Jabr that the local nickname in jest for Jabr became "holy spirit". It would seem that so embarrassed was Mohammed, by the ribbing he was taking, that damage control required yet another sura.

"The Jabr Connection

Again quoting Moshay:

Sura 16.103 We know indeed that they say, "It is a man that teaches him." The tongue of him they wickedly point to is notably foreign, while this is Arabic, pure and clear.

The "man that teaches him" is a young "Christian" friend of Muhammad called Jabr, whom Muhammad always visited at Marwah Quraters, not too far from his house. The allegation was that when Muhammad visited Jabr and heard the stories of the Bible, some were put on record. People believed that Muhammad usually presented these parchments and claimed he had received them hot from heaven through the angel Gabriel.

Muhammad refuted this strong allegation through another "revelation" from "Gabriel." The defense was that since Jabr was of "a foreign tongue" (he was not an Arab by birth), he could not have taught Muhammad anything. But it does not matter if Jabr was a non-Arab. Since he had stayed long in Arabia, he could have known Arabic very well and related his stories to Muhammad in good Arabic. How could Jabr be a close friend of Muhammad (if he did not understand Arabic) since Muhammad did not understand any other language? We must realize too that Muhammad's main Secretary was a Jew. According to Muslim writer Muhammad Haykall, Muhammad...

'...had chosen him (the Secretary) for his capacity to write letters in Hebrew and Syriac as well as Arabic. After the evacuation of Jews from Madinah, the Prophet no longer trusted a non-muslim to write his letters.'

That means, too, that the Jewish background of Jabr could not be a plausible reason why he couldn't have helped Muhammad in his collection of what is now called the Qur'an. If Muhammad's own Secretary was of "a foreign tougue" and yet well versed in Arabic, Syriac and his own Hebrew language, then it is not inconceivable to get Hebrew scriptures and literature interpreted and translated into Arabic by the Secretary. Since the Secretary was such a brilliant fellow and was versatile in these three languages, therefore, the alleged brilliance of the language of the Qur'an is not a necessary and sufficient proof of heavenly authorship. Rather, it can be a reflection of the brilliance of Jabr, since Muhammad is believed to have been illiterate." (Anatomy of the Quran by G.J.O. Moshay)

Regarding Mohammed's claim of "pure Arabic" there are over 100 non-Arabic words in Persian, Syriac, Hebrew, old Egyptian, Assyrian and Greek. So even Mohammed's claimed "proof" in the above sura is untrue. Even the word for "Gospel", Injil, is a Syriac word.
__________________

From a website:
"Ibn Ishaq also provides some detail. (in page180)

"According to my information the apostle used often to sit at al-Marwa at the booth of a young Christian called Jabr (2), a slave of B. al-Hadrami and they used to say "The one who teaches Muhammad most of what he brings is Jabr the Christian, slave of the B. al-Hadrami." Then God revealed in reference to their words "We well know that they say, "Only a mortal teaches him"."

Quran 25:5
And they say: "Tales of the ancients, which he has caused to be written: and they are dictated before him morning and evening." "

Search Sura 16 103 "jabr"

"On Plagiarism

The influences noted above are not just in hearing stories and having them jotted down as revelations. There are hints of outright plagiarism identified by scholars. But, interestingly, we have a serious challenge concerning the sacredness and originality of the Qur'an:

'And if you are in doubt as to which We (Allah) have revealed to Our servant (Muhammad), then produce a chapter like it, and call on your helper, besides Allah, if you are truthful.'

Most Arabs were illiterate at that time. Moreover, many of the original works from which Arabs could have discovered the sources of the Qur'an material were in foreign languages. Informed scholars now laugh at such a challenge since clear evidence now exists to establish outright plagiarism in the Qura'an. We will now cite a few of these.

It has been established that verses 1, 29, 31 and 46 of Sura 54 (Surat al-Qamar) were lifted from a poem of a pre-Islamic Arabic poet, Imraul Qais. Even at the time of Muhammad, some sneered at the challenge to 'produce a chapter like it.' For example the poe Imraul Qais' daughter was still alive when Muhammad started his religion. One day this lady was listening to Muhammad reciting the 'revelations' he had just received hot from heaven from his Angel Jubril. She recognized the verses from her father's poems, and stoood aghast and amused, wondering how these could be a revelation written by Alland and preserved in the 'Preserved Tablet' in heaven from before the creation of the world!

Another time, this lady met Fatima, Muhammad's daughter, reciting the first verse of Surat Qamar. Qais' daughter said:

'Oh that is what your father has taken from my father's poems ('Mollaqat') and calls it something that has come down fto him from heaven!'

If the original works of a secular Arab poet could be seen in the Qur'an, then it is scarcely of any use to maintain the claim that the Qur'an is so wonderful that the most learned Arab or even a spirit could not produce it's kind." (Anatomy of the Quran by G.J.O. Moshay)

Sura 19:28 "O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!" 29 But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?" 30 He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;

Jesus speaking as an infant was lifted from an Egyptian apocryphal fable titled "First Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ":
"...Jesus spake even when he was in the cradle, and said: 'Mary, I am Jesus the son of God. That word which thou didst bring forth according to the declaration of the angel..."

Portions of the preceding from "Anatomy of the Quran" by G.J.O. Moshay
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=410.0

Any Muslim that dares to read Moshay's book, will leave Islam.

Mohammed discouraged questions:

Surah 5:101 O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble.

So Muslims are instructed to avoid asking questions. Illustrating Islam's 1400 year fear of truth. The same reason that Mohammed had poets killed and prevented Muslims from making friends of non-Muslims. The same reason bibles are banned in Islamic countries.
The one true God is very much different than that:

1Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

The reason Mohammed discouraged questions is made clear in the very next verse:

102 Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith.

But those that loose their faith in Mohammed can gain faith in the one true God - the God of love - that His people have followed for 3500 years, through two covenants, detailed in His 1600 year record:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/gospel_of_john.htm

Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

"Allah has hated for you three things: ... 3. And asking too many questions (in disputed religious matters)." (Dr. Khan, Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol. 2, #555)

That's why apostates are killed. So they can't bring truth to others. Punishment for leaving, like all other dangerous cults.

Surah 4:89 They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-

There was no shortage of doubters regarding Mohammed's "revelations" being divinely inspired. Besides the Christians and Jews, other Arabs had trouble, likely in part because even Mohammed admitted to reversing himself so often.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=116.0

A whopping 71 out of only 114 suras are subject to abrogation:

Quran 2:106 None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?

Mohammed even knew how all his change-ups would be perceived:

Surah 16:101 When We substitute one revelation for another, and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages), they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.

That he couldn't keep his story straight indicates not divine inspiration but the changing whims of the self-serving author of the Quran. Like the special sura that allowed Mohammed to take his step-son's wife, or the one that allowed him all the wives he wanted, but only for him. http://www.beholdthebeast.com/#prophet

According to Aisha, while they were making preparations to bury Mohammed, goats ate part of the Quran.
Does anyone really think that is the way God would preserve His Word?

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7GPNAUWacI

Mujaheed

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Re: THE KAABAH AS TEMPLE OF THE ARABIAN STAR WORSHIP
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2013, 08:53:24 AM »
[Islam-Christian Forum Admin note edited into this, Muj's post: This post as well as the following 7 posts that follow, were moved to this thread from the unrelated subject thread "THE KAABAH AS TEMPLE OF THE ARABIAN STAR WORSHIP". End note]

Your choice of words does not change the facts. Your heart devoid of the love Jesus will never make an impact on anyone. The prophet Muhammad and millions Muslims however transformed the lives of millions of disbelievers, apostates, idol worshippers, Christians and Jews, Arabs Europeans, Malawians and Australians all independent thinkers. All did thorough research and none turned back to the deception of a trinity of father son Holy Ghost theory of the Nicean council. The Prophet did not conspire to get people to accept his message human beings naturally gravitate towards it if their hearts are pure but if their hearts are corrupted there is open rebellion towards the message of the Prophets

You and many like you are the living proof that Muhammad is a true messenger of God. You by your rebellion against Muhammad like the Hews rebelled against Jesus. Just like all prophets were rebelled against proves that Muhammad is the true messenger of Allah.
So thank for this website. I refer to it in lectures and discussions as the proof for the opposition to the truth the light and the way.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2013, 11:55:13 AM by PeteWaldo »

PeteWaldo

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Re: Re: THE KAABAH AS TEMPLE OF THE ARABIAN STAR WORSHIP
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2013, 09:14:00 AM »
Your choice of words does not change the facts. Your heart devoid of the love Jesus will never make an impact on anyone. The prophet Muhammad and millions Muslims however transformed the lives of millions of disbelievers, apostates, idol worshippers, Christians and Jews, Arabs Europeans, Malawians and Australians all independent thinkers.

I already mentioned Muhammad's murder of those innocent Jewish farm boys in his own day.
Murdering innocent folks unto today, does tend to transform them.

Here's a snapshot of what's been going on just in Nigerian towns, from Nigeria Calabash:
12/28/2012 Musari: Islamists tie up fifteen women and children inside a church, then slit their throats while shouting praises to Allah.
12/26/2012 Bachit: Suspected Fulani murder three villagers, including a married couple, in attacks on two Christian homes.
12/25/2012 Peri: A pastor and five worshippers are slaughtered in a Religion of Peace attack on a Christmas morning church service.
12/25/2012 Rim: A Christian is killed in his home by Fulani gunmen in front of his family.
12/24/2012 Maiduguri: Six people are killed in a Christmas Eve church attack by Religion of Peace gunmen.
12/6/2012 Yankaba: Two Christian teenagers are executed by gunmen on a motorcycle yelling, 'Allah akbar'.
12/2/2012 Chibok: Religion of Peace proponents invade a Christian village in the middle of the night and massacre ten residents.
12/1/2012 Gamboru Ngala: Two guards die when Muslims shouting 'Allah Akbar' burn churches.
11/25/2012 Jaji: Two suicide bombers massacre fifteen worshippers at a Protestant church.
11/22/2012 Bichi: Angry Muslims riot, burn churches and kills four Christians over a rumor of blasphemy concerning a t-shirt."
etc. etc. ad nauseam
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/muslim_persecution_of_christians.htm#slaughter_nigeria

Because Muhammad's true followers do just as Muhammad did, and commanded his followers to do.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm


PeteWaldo

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Re: Re: THE KAABAH AS TEMPLE OF THE ARABIAN STAR WORSHIP
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2013, 09:40:59 AM »
All did thorough research and none turned back to the deception of a trinity of father son Holy Ghost theory of the Nicean council.

Don't be silly Muj. First that's patently false. Six million former Muslims begin a life in Jesus Christ every year, in Africa alone, according to Al-Jazeera:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdVnILalpeo

Secondly, we have 5300 partial or complete copies of the New Testament that date to before 300AD - before the Council of Nicea - through which hundreds of verses reveal God the Father of Jesus:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/god_the_father.htm
His Son:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/jesus_the_son_of_god.htm
And the Holy Spirit.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/spirit_of_god.htm

http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3910.0
In order for your satanic lie to be true, men would have had to have gone back, and uniformly changed those hundreds of verses, in all of the 5300 manuscript copies, in every popular language that was known to man, that were being read all over the known world.
Do you see what a foolish and transparent lie you are trying to propagate? You have deceived yourself into believing yourself to be innocent, all the while engaging in unspeakable blasphemy.

The Prophet did not conspire to get people to accept his message human beings naturally gravitate towards it if their hearts are pure but if their hearts are corrupted there is open rebellion towards the message of the Prophets

You and many like you are the living proof that Muhammad is a true messenger of God. You by your rebellion against Muhammad like the Hews rebelled against Jesus. Just like all prophets were rebelled against proves that Muhammad is the true messenger of Allah.
So thank for this website. I refer to it in lectures and discussions as the proof for the opposition to the truth the light and the way.

Mujaheed

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Re: Re: THE KAABAH AS TEMPLE OF THE ARABIAN STAR WORSHIP
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2013, 02:23:38 PM »
The documents you referring to is not biographies nor are the authors known nor is it the writings of the prophets. Your hypothetical original is lost and the copies are individual accounts filled with myth and speculative opinions of accounts that may be oral traditions according to the political demand of the day. No one manuscript can be traced back to an original and the content differs in style content and storyline. What you have in the manuscripts are not even eyewitness accounts. They are narrations long after the fact 
The tribe of quartz is from a weak source and may even be a Roman story attributed to the prophet Muhammad.


PeteWaldo

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Re: Re: THE KAABAH AS TEMPLE OF THE ARABIAN STAR WORSHIP
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2013, 03:37:02 PM »
Any post you put in any thread in the forum will be sent to spam until you return to our discussion at this link:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3344.msg15954#msg15954

The documents you referring to is not biographies nor are the authors known nor is it the writings of the prophets. Your hypothetical original is lost ...........

My friend, the oldest Quran in existence was from nearly a hundred years after Muhammad. Laughably, words in this oldest Quran were even washed off, and written over.



Compare that with the textual integrity of scripture:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=97.0

And the miracle of fulfilled Bible prophecy:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2447.0

Worse than the Quran being washed and written over - having still been in such a state of flux even 100 years after Muhammad - according to a leading expert hired by the Yemeni government to assess it, about one out of every five verses simply don't even make sense.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2576.0
Not so surprising since the Arabic language didn't even have a written form until about 300 AD.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2561.0
Let alone that Muhammad made such a mess of his recitations over the short span of just 23 years, that Muhammad himself even during his own lifetime, had to institute a doctrine of abrogation in an effort to sort the contradictory mess out.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=116.0

Muhammad's alter-ego "Allah" did such a great job of preserving his record, that a goat even ate part of it!
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1067.0

........ and the copies are individual accounts filled with myth and speculative opinions of accounts that may be oral traditions according to the political demand of the day.

And of course you just described not only the Quran, however we know that some of its authors include Waraqa bin Naufal, Jabr and Tubba and others:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3091.0

But the authors of the Hadith, that weren't finished with that until 300 years after Muhammad. Indeed the Hadith author most revered by Muhammadans (Bukhari) for his comparatively whitewashed version, not even having put it to the pen until over 200 years after Muhammad.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2860.0

A pile of poppycock revolving around a phony town, that amusingly did not even exist prior to the 4th century AD.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2859.0
http://www.historyofmecca.com/

No one manuscript can be traced back to an original and the content differs in style content and storyline. What you have in the manuscripts are not even eyewitness accounts.

Says a guy who follows a 7th century SW Arabian desert dwelling illiterate, whose wife's Ebionite Gnostic cousin, fooled Muhammad into proclaiming the exact opposite of the whole subject of the Gospel, 600 years after the fact.
http://petewaldo.com/simon_magnus_gnostics_ebionites_islam.htm
Also co-authored by Jabr, Tubba and the rest.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=452.0
Yet at the same time as denying the subject of the Gospel, telling Christians and Jews to go by what is revealed in our books, that were kept "pure and holy".
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/

They are narrations long after the fact 

So while you perfectly described the Quran and Hadith, we understand how you got duped into parroting that tripe as if applicable to scripture. You are ignorant to history as well. Why not try educating yourself on these matters and get over how tragically you have been duped?
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3910.0
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2572.0

The tribe of quartz is from a weak source and may even be a Roman story attributed to the prophet Muhammad.

Qur'an 33:26 "Allah took down the People of the Scripture Book. He cast terror into their hearts. Some you slew, and some you made prisoners. And He made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods, giving you a land which you had not traversed before. And Allah has power over all things."

If you meant the tribe of the Banu Qurayza, why do you run and hide from Muhammad's mass murder of those innocent, peaceful, faithful Jewish farm boys and their dads and grandpas? Just one of three Jewish tribes in Medina that Muhammad exterminated.
https://www.google.com/#q=remember+the+qurayza
It is one of the proudest moments in Islamic history, according to true fundamental followers of Muhammad, that GET Islam.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm#muslim_hypocrites
The rape of their little sisters, moms and grandmothers too! These are the accounts just from Bukhari. If you are calling Bukhari - considered the second most inspired book in Islam - a "weak source" in the Middle East, I'm sure you too could find some that would love to cut your head off for you.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=892.0

The question you have to ask yourself is if the ONE great God of the Jews YHWH, would have approved of a band of black stone idol venerating, cutthroat, murderous, prisoner raping thieves, beheading faithful, peaceful, literate, productive and prosperous Jewish farm boys and their dads and grandpas. A band of pagan's that circumambulated the Quraish pagan's Kaaba for nearly a century before Muhammad was ever born.

(1) Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: that while he was sitting with Allah's Apostle he said, "O Allah's Apostle! We get female captives as our share of booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interrupt us?" The Prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do it. No soul that which Allah has destined to exist, but will surely come into existence.  (Book #34, Hadith #432)

(2) Narrated Ibn Muhairiz: I saw Abu Said and asked him about coitus interruptus. Abu Said said, "We went with Allah's Apostle, in the Ghazwa of Barli Al-Mustaliq and we captured some of the 'Arabs as captives, and the long separation from our wives was pressing us hard and we wanted to practice coitus interruptus. We asked Allah's Apostle (whether it was permissible). He said, "It is better for you not to do so. No soul, (that which Allah has) destined to exist, up to the Day of Resurrection, but will definitely come, into existence."  (Book #46, Hadith #718)

(3) Narrated Ibn Muhairiz: I entered the Mosque and saw Abu Said Al-Khudri and sat beside him and asked him about Al-Azl (i.e. coitus interruptus). Abu Said said, "We went out with Allah's Apostle for the Ghazwa of Banu Al-Mustaliq and we received captives from among the Arab captives and we desired women and celibacy became hard on us and we loved to do coitus interruptus. So when we intended to do coitus interrupt us, we said, 'How can we do coitus interruptus before asking Allah's Apostle who is present among us?" We asked (him) about it and he said, 'It is better for you not to do so, for if any soul (till the Day of Resurrection) is predestined to exist, it will exist."  (Book #59, Hadith #459)

(4) Narrated Jabir: We used to practice coitus interrupt us during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle .  (Book #62, Hadith #135)

(5) Narrated Jabir: We used to practice coitus interrupt us while the Quran was being revealed. Jabir added: We used to practice coitus interrupt us during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle while the Quran was being Revealed.  (Book #62, Hadith #136)

(6) Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: We got female captives in the war booty and we used to do coitus interruptus with them. So we asked Allah's Apostle about it and he said, "Do you really do that?" repeating the question thrice, "There is no soul that is destined to exist but will come into existence, till the Day of Resurrection."  (Book #62, Hadith #137)

(7) Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: That while he was sitting with the Prophet a man from the Ansar came and said, "O Allah's Apostle! We get slave girls from the war captives and we love property; what do you think about coitus interruptus?" Allah's Apostle said, "Do you do that? It is better for you not to do it, for there is no soul which Allah has ordained to come into existence but will be created."  (Book #77, Hadith #600)

(8) Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: That during the battle with Bani Al-Mustaliq they (Muslims) captured some females and intended to have sexual relation with them without impregnating them. So they asked the Prophet about coitus interrupt us. The Prophet said, "It is better that you should not do it, for Allah has written whom He is going to create till the Day of Resurrection." Qaza'a said, "I heard Abu Sa'id saying that the Prophet said, 'No soul is ordained to be created but Allah will create it."  (Book #93, Hadith #506)

PeteWaldo

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Re: Re: THE KAABAH AS TEMPLE OF THE ARABIAN STAR WORSHIP
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2013, 03:43:53 PM »
But then the textual integrity of scripture, and lack thereof for the Quran, and Muhammad and his boys rape of female prisoners, and mass murder of faithful, peaceful, productive Jewish farm boys, and the theft of the fruit of their labor, is all off-topic for this thread.

The subject of this thread is the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in the kaaba that the Quraish pagan's built in the late 5th century in the SW Arabian desert - located 1200 kilometers away from THE Holy Land of the prophets and patriarchs - for pagan Arabian moon, sun, star and jinn devil worship.

Sahih Muslim Book 007, Number 3078 ".....for when the Quraish had built the Ka'ba, they reduced its (area), and I would also have built (a door) in the rear."
http://www.petewaldo.com/hajj_umrah.htm#kaaba

Now any post you put in any thread in the forum will be sent to spam until you resume our discussion at this link:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3344.msg15954#msg15954

Mujaheed

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Re: Re: THE KAABAH AS TEMPLE OF THE ARABIAN STAR WORSHIP
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2013, 09:09:43 AM »
Any post you put in any thread in the forum will be sent to spam until you return to our discussion at this link:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3344.msg15954#msg15954

The documents you referring to is not biographies nor are the authors known nor is it the writings of the prophets. Your hypothetical original is lost ...........

My friend, the oldest Quran in existence was from nearly a hundred years after Muhammad. Laughably, words in this oldest Quran were even washed off, and written over.



Compare that with the textual integrity of scripture:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=97.0

And the miracle of fulfilled Bible prophecy:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2447.0

Worse than the Quran being washed and written over - having still been in such a state of flux even 100 years after Muhammad - according to a leading expert hired by the Yemeni government to assess it, about one out of every five verses simply don't even make sense.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2576.0
Not so surprising since the Arabic language didn't even have a written form until about 300 AD.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2561.0
Let alone that Muhammad made such a mess of his recitations over the short span of just 23 years, that Muhammad himself even during his own lifetime, had to institute a doctrine of abrogation in an effort to sort the contradictory mess out.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=116.0

Muhammad's alter-ego "Allah" did such a great job of preserving his record, that a goat even ate part of it!
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1067.0

........ and the copies are individual accounts filled with myth and speculative opinions of accounts that may be oral traditions according to the political demand of the day.

And of course you just described not only the Quran, however we know that some of its authors include Waraqa bin Naufal, Jabr and Tubba and others:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3091.0

But the authors of the Hadith, that weren't finished with that until 300 years after Muhammad. Indeed the Hadith author most revered by Muhammadans (Bukhari) for his comparatively whitewashed version, not even having put it to the pen until over 200 years after Muhammad.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2860.0

A pile of poppycock revolving around a phony town, that amusingly did not even exist prior to the 4th century AD.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2859.0
http://www.historyofmecca.com/

Hi Peter it is answers like this that tells me that your or your Yemeni expert know very little of Islam and that you understand even less of scripture. That is why you fail to grasp simple truths. The Quran is a recited book, it is poetic, mathematically precise with rhythm and tone, the writing of its verses is immaterial to the word and merely a simplification for the purposes of teaching it. The miracle of the Quran is that an illiterate person cn learn it by heart and thus preserve its integrity. Th preservation is the words of the Quran itself as changing even one dot would change the tone, sound, meaning and context in some instances and therefore corrections are spotted immediately. It is qualified by the Hadith of the companions and the context is explained in Tafsir.

In other words its an exact science. Not Handwritten conjecture myth and opinion according to unknown Authors like the Gospels.

There are no Authors of the Quran, its compilation is matter of debate not its words.

PeteWaldo

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Re: Re: THE KAABAH AS TEMPLE OF THE ARABIAN STAR WORSHIP
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2013, 10:05:19 AM »
Any post you put in any thread in the forum will be sent to spam until you return to our discussion at this link:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3344.msg15954#msg15954

The documents you referring to is not biographies nor are the authors known nor is it the writings of the prophets. Your hypothetical original is lost ...........

My friend, the oldest Quran in existence was from nearly a hundred years after Muhammad. Laughably, words in this oldest Quran were even washed off, and written over.



Compare that with the textual integrity of scripture:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=97.0

And the miracle of fulfilled Bible prophecy:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2447.0

Worse than the Quran being washed and written over - having still been in such a state of flux even 100 years after Muhammad - according to a leading expert hired by the Yemeni government to assess it, about one out of every five verses simply don't even make sense.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2576.0
Not so surprising since the Arabic language didn't even have a written form until about 300 AD.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2561.0
Let alone that Muhammad made such a mess of his recitations over the short span of just 23 years, that Muhammad himself even during his own lifetime, had to institute a doctrine of abrogation in an effort to sort the contradictory mess out.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=116.0

Muhammad's alter-ego "Allah" did such a great job of preserving his record, that a goat even ate part of it!
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1067.0

........ and the copies are individual accounts filled with myth and speculative opinions of accounts that may be oral traditions according to the political demand of the day.

And of course you just described not only the Quran, however we know that some of its authors include Waraqa bin Naufal, Jabr and Tubba and others:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3091.0

But the authors of the Hadith, that weren't finished with that until 300 years after Muhammad. Indeed the Hadith author most revered by Muhammadans (Bukhari) for his comparatively whitewashed version, not even having put it to the pen until over 200 years after Muhammad.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2860.0

A pile of poppycock revolving around a phony town, that amusingly did not even exist prior to the 4th century AD.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2859.0
http://www.historyofmecca.com/

Hi Peter it is answers like this that tells me that your or your Yemeni expert ........

The Yemeni government had to hire the expert because the Yemeni Muslims were clueless about Qur'anic historical orthography and Arabic paleography.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2576.0

The rest of your post indicates that you are also ignorant, particularly to the fact what whatever Quran you are talking about, is in MODERN ARABIC VERSION of the primitive Arabic of that oldest Quran, in which one out of every five verses simply don't make any sense.

........ know very little of Islam and that you understand even less of scripture. That is why you fail to grasp simple truths.

No it is your failure to investigate history, archaeology, geography and now, the textual history of the Quran that keeps you in such abject ignorance.

The Quran is a recited book, .........

That's the problem. That's why various copies had to be collected up and all but a preferred copy burned, on two separate occasions.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/textual_history_of_the_koran.htm

.......... it is poetic, mathematically precise with rhythm and tone, the writing of its verses is immaterial to the word and merely a simplification for the purposes of teaching it. The miracle of the Quran is that an illiterate person cn learn it by heart and thus preserve its integrity.

That's ridiculous. The "illiterate person" Muhammad, used to spend hours speaking with Jabr at Marwah Quarters. So often did he receive one of his "revelations" shortly after one of his chats with Jabr, that the locals nicknamed Jabr "holy spirit". See the OP of this thread.

Let alone the other authors like Waraqa bin Naufal and Tubba. Though Muhammad was so inept, he couldn't remember the Arabic fables and stuff he was told very well, and got things all goofed up and eventually had to create a doctrine of abrogation to answer to all the criticism he was suffering from his self-contradicting nonsense. Plus his revelations transformed from his early Mecca drivel, into imperialistic conquest and subjugation of non-Muslims, after Muhammad and his boys abandoned any pretense of religiosity through their murder, rape, genocide and thievery.
http://petewaldo.com/banu_qurayza_massacre.htm

He even had a ridiculous and transparent special "revelation" to address everyone's knowledge that he was getting his material from Jabr. I provide these links for you to read, not ignore. Now that I merged our chat with an appropriate thread you can just scroll to the OP.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3091.msg12453#msg12453

Th preservation is the words of the Quran itself as changing even one dot would change the tone, sound, meaning and context in some instances and therefore corrections are spotted immediately. It is qualified by the Hadith of the companions and the context is explained in Tafsir.

In other words its an exact science. Not Handwritten conjecture myth and opinion according to unknown Authors like the Gospels.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYLHxcqJmoM

There are no Authors of the Quran, its compilation is matter of debate not its words.

You simply choose self-imposed abject ignorance to the other authors of the Quran. Yet the connection, even all the way back to the famous 1st century Gnostic sorcerer Simon Magus and his disciples, is unmistakable:
http://petewaldo.com/simon_magnus_gnostics_ebionites_islam.htm#basilides

PeteWaldo

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Re: Authors of the Quran
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2013, 10:30:34 AM »
Posts from the second post http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3091.msg15949#msg15949 up to this post, were moved here from the unrelated thread:

THE KAABAH AS TEMPLE OF THE ARABIAN STAR WORSHIP
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1140.0

Regarding the Quraish pagan's black stone idol, and the Kaaba that they built in the late 5th century for Arabian moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship.

I'll temporarily lock this thread so you are not tempted to respond, until you resume our chat, on the thread that you keep ignoring at this link:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3344.msg15984#msg15984

Mujaheed

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Re: Re: THE KAABAH AS TEMPLE OF THE ARABIAN STAR WORSHIP
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2014, 10:50:48 AM »
Any post you put in any thread in the forum will be sent to spam until you return to our discussion at this link:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3344.msg15954#msg15954

The documents you referring to is not biographies nor are the authors known nor is it the writings of the prophets. Your hypothetical original is lost ...........

My friend, the oldest Quran in existence was from nearly a hundred years after Muhammad. Laughably, words in this oldest Quran were even washed off, and written over.



Compare that with the textual integrity of scripture:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=97.0

And the miracle of fulfilled Bible prophecy:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2447.0

Worse than the Quran being washed and written over - having still been in such a state of flux even 100 years after Muhammad - according to a leading expert hired by the Yemeni government to assess it, about one out of every five verses simply don't even make sense.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2576.0
Not so surprising since the Arabic language didn't even have a written form until about 300 AD.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2561.0
Let alone that Muhammad made such a mess of his recitations over the short span of just 23 years, that Muhammad himself even during his own lifetime, had to institute a doctrine of abrogation in an effort to sort the contradictory mess out.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=116.0

Muhammad's alter-ego "Allah" did such a great job of preserving his record, that a goat even ate part of it!
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1067.0

........ and the copies are individual accounts filled with myth and speculative opinions of accounts that may be oral traditions according to the political demand of the day.

And of course you just described not only the Quran, however we know that some of its authors include Waraqa bin Naufal, Jabr and Tubba and others:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3091.0

But the authors of the Hadith, that weren't finished with that until 300 years after Muhammad. Indeed the Hadith author most revered by Muhammadans (Bukhari) for his comparatively whitewashed version, not even having put it to the pen until over 200 years after Muhammad.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2860.0

A pile of poppycock revolving around a phony town, that amusingly did not even exist prior to the 4th century AD.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2859.0
http://www.historyofmecca.com/

Hi Peter it is answers like this that tells me that your or your Yemeni expert ........

The Yemeni government had to hire the expert because the Yemeni Muslims were clueless about Qur'anic historical orthography and Arabic paleography.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2576.0

The rest of your post indicates that you are also ignorant, particularly to the fact what whatever Quran you are talking about, is in MODERN ARABIC VERSION of the primitive Arabic of that oldest Quran, in which one out of every five verses simply don't make any sense.

........ know very little of Islam and that you understand even less of scripture. That is why you fail to grasp simple truths.

No it is your failure to investigate history, archaeology, geography and now, the textual history of the Quran that keeps you in such abject ignorance.

The Quran is a recited book, .........

That's the problem. That's why various copies had to be collected up and all but a preferred copy burned, on two separate occasions.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/textual_history_of_the_koran.htm

.......... it is poetic, mathematically precise with rhythm and tone, the writing of its verses is immaterial to the word and merely a simplification for the purposes of teaching it. The miracle of the Quran is that an illiterate person cn learn it by heart and thus preserve its integrity.

That's ridiculous. The "illiterate person" Muhammad, used to spend hours speaking with Jabr at Marwah Quarters. So often did he receive one of his "revelations" shortly after one of his chats with Jabr, that the locals nicknamed Jabr "holy spirit". See the OP of this thread.

Let alone the other authors like Waraqa bin Naufal and Tubba. Though Muhammad was so inept, he couldn't remember the Arabic fables and stuff he was told very well, and got things all goofed up and eventually had to create a doctrine of abrogation to answer to all the criticism he was suffering from his self-contradicting nonsense. Plus his revelations transformed from his early Mecca drivel, into imperialistic conquest and subjugation of non-Muslims, after Muhammad and his boys abandoned any pretense of religiosity through their murder, rape, genocide and thievery.
http://petewaldo.com/banu_qurayza_massacre.htm

He even had a ridiculous and transparent special "revelation" to address everyone's knowledge that he was getting his material from Jabr. I provide these links for you to read, not ignore. Now that I merged our chat with an appropriate thread you can just scroll to the OP.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3091.msg12453#msg12453

Th preservation is the words of the Quran itself as changing even one dot would change the tone, sound, meaning and context in some instances and therefore corrections are spotted immediately. It is qualified by the Hadith of the companions and the context is explained in Tafsir.

In other words its an exact science. Not Handwritten conjecture myth and opinion according to unknown Authors like the Gospels.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYLHxcqJmoM

There are no Authors of the Quran, its compilation is matter of debate not its words.

You simply choose self-imposed abject ignorance to the other authors of the Quran. Yet the connection, even all the way back to the famous 1st century Gnostic sorcerer Simon Magus and his disciples, is unmistakable:
http://petewaldo.com/simon_magnus_gnostics_ebionites_islam.htm#basilides

Dear Pete none of your responses is even remotely true or follows plain and simple archeological logic. Let me breakdown for you very simply in order for you to understand.

The prophet Muhammad conquered Makkah and started to make five times prayer at the Kaaba.Three of the Salaahs the Quran is recited out loud. Now, the 125000 witnesses heard him, and since it is recited in their native tongue and the fact that it is beautiful Rhyme it is easy to learn and repeat word for word exactly as they heard it. Yes just like you would recite hickory dickory dock. It is impossible to change a single word in the entire Quran because of the system the Quran employs to preserve itself. 125000 witnesses left Makkah and died in remote areas as far as Spain and the Quran remained exactly the same all over the world. The written Book is a means of making it easier (not preservation) of the words (the words can't change) if there are copies of written text any Hafidth (one who knows the entire quran by Heart) will point out the mistake. Mistakes in written text is corrected when compared to recited text.

Firstly we do not have a translation problem (Quran always appears in ARABIC
secondly we don't have differing versions of the Quran it is preserved in the hearts of the Hufaadth
Thirdly it is from the Prophets lips to his Companions ears to the ears of this that came after and so on and so on.
Fourthly Most Muslims learn to recite the Quran before they can even read or write!!!!


No-one has produce anything even close to the Quran in the entire 1430 years of its existence. Nobody has ever contested it and succeeded in proving it to be plagiarized or copied. If it sounds like Scripture we agree with you that it is the Scripture sent by GOD as all other scripture has been tampered with, translated incorrectly, interpreted and subject to vast amounts of conjecture. The doctrines that Are not scripture has clouded every Jewish and Christian mind to the extent that truth eludes them and arrogance overtakes their hearts.

It is Arrogant to insist that you know something from doubtful sources. It is arrogance to make false accusations based on misguided doctrines that has nothing to do with Scripture.

According to your Scripture Moses could not Kill (thou Shalt not kill) but David could Slay Goliath and Samson could commit suicide while killing others when he was blinded.Yes I know context and conjecture can explain the inconsistencies away.

Try to clear your heart of enmity and hatred, try to clear your mind and soul of hypocrisy and Pride and arrogance, The only one who knows for sure he is 100% Right is Satan and we all know he is 100% wrong but he cannot be convinced. DONT BE LIKE SATAN



PeteWaldo

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Re: Authors of the Quran
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2014, 09:40:07 AM »
As we can see Mujaheed abused the termination of his ban, by once again dithering on with another bunch of unsubstantiated false tripe that he has been indoctrinated to believe, that is contrary to the evidence presented in this thread. That, rather than comply with the terms of reentry to the forum which are for him to simply present some historical or archaeological evidence that suggests that Mecca ever existed prior to the 4th century AD, when pagan immigrants migrated there from Yemen and first settled the area, and built their Kaaba in the 5th century AD for Arabian moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship. Venerating the Quraish pagan's black stone idol, which is the very same idol that Muhammad's followers still venerate and prostrate toward 5 times every day. I'll give you another break to collect some evidence Muj.

For outside observers seeking more on Muhammad's follower's veneration of the Quraish pagan's black stone idol please visit the thread at this link:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1050.0

For help in understanding that Muhammadanism can only be the religion of the enemy of God Himself - the exact opposite of that revealed through the 1600 year record of Yahweh to mankind as revealed through ALL of His prophets and witnesses - please click on this link:
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/

PeteWaldo

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Re: Authors of the Quran
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2015, 08:30:07 AM »
Additionally I just noticed: "I have not seen Allah's Apostle touching except the two Yemenite corners....." (Book #72, Hadith #742)

What "two Yemenite corners" do you suppose that would be referring to?

".....So the Prophet ordered his companions to do Ramal (i.e. fast walking) in the first three rounds of Tawaf around the Ka'ba and to walk in between the two corners (i.e. the black stone and the Yemenite corner)". (Book #59, Hadith #557)