Dave2's questions

[Peter]

In any event, you are unable to know the meanings of Jewish prophecies unless you know what they prophets meant. And you cannot know what the prophets meant unless you know Hebrew and Aramaic, and unless you know what the authentic commentators throughout history said on these matters.

Don't be ridiculous. You sound just like a Muslim claiming that the reason I see Muhammad is revealed as an imperialistic, mass murdering, terrorist, thief, is because I can't read Arabic. You dither on as if I am using some sort of a personal unique translation or understanding for passages like Isaiah 53, that are widely known, and that Jews have come into relationship with Christ through for nearly 2,000 years. Passages where the new covenant prophets/Apostles themselves confirm fulfillment of the old covenant prophesies.

Try a new covenant word search like - fulfilled
http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?criteria=fulfilled&page=2&sf=5&t=KJV
or - written
http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?criteria=written&page=6&sf=5&t=KJV

You desire to believe that somehow the vast majority of Jewish scholars and your brethren misunderstand, because their conclusions are inconsistent with what you personally choose to believe, from the Rabbis you choose to follow, as if they are infallible. You are at odds with the vast majority of your Jewish brethren that also follow Rabbis and Jewish scholars, that happen to have a different understanding than yours do and thus are Zionists. The truth becomes evident when we consider that the Rabbis you choose put you in the company of anti-Zionists that include godless, racist, Jew hating, skinheads, Nazis and the KKK, as well as Muhammadans who are vowed to kill Jews and drive them into the sea, along with the rest of the godless world that is gathering against Jerusalem, thereby advancing Islamic conquest and subjugation of Israeli Jews and Christians.

But the fact is, that your "courts" are exactly like you Dave. Doing everything in their power to avoid the truth, by painting a picture consistent with what they were predisposed to believe through their flesh to begin with, and then all sitting around and nodding at each other in agreement as if theirs were the only true understanding.

Read it this time Dave:

Psalms 22:17 For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me, like a lion, my hands and feet. 18. I tell about all my bones. They look and gloat over me. 19. They share my garments among themselves and cast lots for my raiment.

That was penned before crucifixion was ever even invented. What do you suppose is meant by "like a lion, my hands and feet"? Like a lion licking them? Or using tooth or claw to pierce them?

ANSWER THAT QUESTION DIRECTLY AND SUCCINCTLY THIS TIME DAVE, AND QUIT IGNORING OUR POSTS WHILE DITHERING ON, REPEATING QUESTIONS AS IF YOU HADN'T ALREADY ASKED THEM AND RECEIVED ANSWERS TO THEM. Every post you reply with that obfuscates, dithers, or introduces a new subject or point, will be moved to spam until you can be honest enough with yourself and us to give a direct answer.

That prophecy was confirmed, in the crucifixion of our Messiah:

Mat 27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.

Mar 15:24 And when they had crucified him, they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take.

Luk 23:33 And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left. 34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

Jhn 19:18 Where they crucified him, and two other with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst. 19 And Pilate wrote a title, and put [it] on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.
Jhn 19:23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also [his] coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout.

As confirmed by Jesus in His own prophecy of His crucifixion, death and resurrection:

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

Matthew 20:17 And Jesus going up to Jerusalem took the twelve disciples apart in the way, and said unto them, 18 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death, 19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify [him]: and the third day he shall rise again.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm

[Peter]

I am sorry, but your last posting is hard to follow. Perhaps you could rewrite it and make it easier to follow.

Perhaps I didn't make the font in the question large enough. I'll try an 18 font this time.

In the meantime I was intrigued that the author Romans agrees that the faith in the One God is for Jews and Gentiles, and that everything falls under the Torah/halacha:

 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Please read the instruction again:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3238.msg13651#msg13651

There is no more "in the meantime" dithering on with unrelated subjects, instead of answering.
Your post contained material beyond the scope of answering the question, so it went to Dave2's parking thread.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3240.0
Saying you couldn't follow the subject was related to the subject. Everything else in your post was unrelated.
NO NEW SUBJECTS. If that was an old subject that you believe was left UNANSWERED earlier, then I will return it to this thread, as your selection, of a prior question or point that you believe was unanswered, WHEN IT'S YOUR TURN. AFTER you answer the question that I selected and we exhaust THIS SUBJECT.

Dave, please answer the question that follows directly and succinctly.

Psalms 22:17 For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me, like a lion, my hands and feet. 18. I tell about all my bones. They look and gloat over me. 19. They share my garments among themselves and cast lots for my raiment.

That was penned before crucifixion was ever even invented. What do you suppose is meant by "like a lion, my hands and feet"? Like a lion licking them? Or using tooth or claw to pierce them?

[Dave2]

Sorry, Peter. You can accuse me of being dense. But I really do not get the gist of your question here, no matter how loudly you should in large fonts.

[Peter]

Sorry, Peter. You can accuse me of being dense. But I really do not get the gist of your question here, no matter how loudly you should in large fonts.

Then instead of asking, I'll answer. The answer is that "like a lion" His "hands and feet" was a prophecy of when Jesus's hands and feet were pierced by nails when He was crucified. Look at the rest of the verse as well.

Psalms 22:17 For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me, like a lion, my hands and feet. 18. I tell about all my bones. They look and gloat over me. 19. They share my garments among themselves and cast lots for my raiment.

Matthew 27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.

Do you see the prophecy from the old covenant scriptures that was fulfilled in the new covenant Gospel?

[Dave2]

Sorry, I don't see that at all. Not only because the psalm is in the past tense and reflects all the suffering of King David at the hands of King Saul and then Absalom, but because you can pick and choose anything you want anywhere for anything you want.
Shall I give you all the "prophecies" in the Tanakh and even in the NT for Mohammed?!
Or even better, there are loads of great prophecies for the messiahship of SHABTAI ZVI.
Would like to see a few?
Here's one from Habbakuk 2:4: TZADDIK BE-EMUNATO YICHYE - A righteous person shall live in his faith. The first letters of the three Hebrew words spells the name TZVI for Shabtai Zvi.

[Peter]

Sorry, I don't see that at all. Not only because the psalm is in the past tense...

Sorry Dave, but that's a non-starter.
For example: http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/prophecy/hebrew-tenses
More: search bible prophecy of future written in past tense
It's called "the prophetic perfect"
Same goes for Isaiah 53

.... you can pick and choose anything you want anywhere for anything you want.
Shall I give you all the "prophecies" in the Tanakh and even in the NT for Mohammed?!

It would seem Muhammad is prophesied in the NT, as well as his Islamic kingdom "beast":
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Unfortunately Muhammad is not prophesied where Muslims - through their Greek sophist styled liars like Ahmed Deedat - wish he were, and I have and addressed their nonsense ad nauseum. Perhaps much later we will request that you make the case for Muhammad in scripture (other than Revelation and the more general prophesy of false prophets), as Muhammad's followers attempt to, just for the entertainment value of watching you squirm. Come on Dave!

Don't get sidetracked by the above replies. Please stay on topic by addressing only the following:

Just because you desire to reject the truth doesn't mean it will magically become false. The verses in question have all the same three elements. Pierced hands and feet, clothing divided, and lots cast. Let alone that the new covenant fulfillment declares it is the fulfillment!

Jhn 19:24 They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.

Jhn 19:24 They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did. 

Just as Jesus' specific reference to Psalms in His own prophecy of His crucifixion!
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

Can't you see how stunning your self-imposed blindness is? And from following the traditions of men that have even cast you into the company of Nazis, skinheads and the KKK. Here's what Jesus said to such as the men you follow:

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

[resistingrexmundi]

Sorry, I don't see that at all. Not only because the psalm is in the past tense and reflects all the suffering of King David at the hands of King Saul and then Absalom, but because you can pick and choose anything you want anywhere for anything you want.
Shall I give you all the "prophecies" in the Tanakh and even in the NT for Mohammed?!
Or even better, there are loads of great prophecies for the messiahship of SHABTAI ZVI.
Would like to see a few?
Here's one from Habbakuk 2:4: TZADDIK BE-EMUNATO YICHYE - A righteous person shall live in his faith. The first letters of the three Hebrew words spells the name TZVI for Shabtai Zvi.

Actually, Psalm 22 is the prayer of a righteous sufferer, brought down to the jaws of death and then rescued and raised up by God in answer to prayer, a glorious testimony to be recounted through the ages. As such, it applies powerfully to Yeshua the Messiah, the ideal righteous sufferer, surrounded by hostile crowds, beaten, mocked, crucified, and seemingly abandoned by man and God, but delivered from death itself and raised from the dead by the power of God, a story now celebrated around the globe. That's why he quoted words from this psalm with reference to himself when he hung on the cross. How strikingly they apply to him! What is also interesting is that some of the great Rabbinic commentators--including Rashi--interpreted the psalm as a prophecy of Israel's future suffering and exile, not as the story of David's past suffering. Not only so, but a famous Rabbinic midrash composed about twelve hundred years ago said that David spoke of the Messiah's suffering in Psalm 22. We can therefore say with confidence that the application of this psalm to the death and resurrection of the Messiah is in keeping with the clear meaning of the text.

For example, at the outset of his comments on this psalm, Rashi says, "They [meaning the people of Israel] are destined to go into exile and David recited this prayer for the future" Commenting on the words "I am a worm" in 22:6[7], Rashi notes that David "refers to all Israel as one man," and he interprets specific verses with reference to later historical figures such as Nebuchadnezzar(22:14[15]). In fact, Rashi explains verse 26[27] with reference to "the time of our redemption in the days of our Messiah," then interprets verses 27-29[28-30] with reference to the Gentile nations turning to the Lord, the end of the age, and the final judgment. These certainly are future events, also underscoring the worldwide redemptive implications of this psalm.

There is no need, however, even to press this argument about the futuristic interpretation of Psalm 22, since it does not have to be prophetic to be applied to the Messiah, for two primary reasons: (1) Many events in the life of David were repeated in the life of the Messiah, since David, in many ways, was the prototype of the Messiah; and (2) as part of the canon of Scripture, Psalm 22 was the psalm of the righteous sufferer miraculously delivered from death, and without doubt, many righteous sufferers have recited the words of this psalm to the Lord in their times of distress. But none could recite it with as much meaning and application as could Jesus the Messiah, the ideal and ultimate righteous sufferer, resurrected from death itself, resulting in worldwide praise whereas the author of the psalm (according to tradition, David) may have spoken of his own situation with some poetic hyperbole, there was no hyperbole when applying the words to Yeshua.

Little wonder, then, that this was understood to be a Messianic psalm by the writers of the NT. In light of all this, it is very interesting to see how Pesikta Rabbati, the famous 8th century midrash, put some of the words of this psalm on the lips of the suffering Messiah (called Ephraim, but associated with the son of David), citing Psalm 22:8, 13-14, and 16 in the context of the Messiah's sufferings. In fact, the midrash explicitly states that "it was because of the ordeal of the son of David that David wept, saying "My strength is dried up like a potsherd (Ps. 22:16)

I will add more later. I have company right now.

[Peter]

That's why he quoted words from this psalm with reference to himself when he hung on the cross.

In case Dave didn't understand that reference:

Psalms 22:2 My God, my God, why have You forsaken me? [You are] far from my salvation [and] from the words of my moaning.

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

What do you think Dave? Are you going to suggest "...because you can pick and choose anything you want anywhere for anything you want."?

[Dave2]

I think you take things too seriously. Of course the author GMatthew or any other book can apply whatever ideas he wants. After all, the entire Tanakh was available in his Greek languages. What's the big deal.
But you should see all the scriptural references used by the Sabbateans to show that Shabtai Zvi WAS the real Messiah. There is no end to these exercises when there isn't a strict tradition of teachings on all these matters. As we say, Eyn Ledavar Sof - There is no end to the matter.

[resistingrexmundi]

I think you take things too seriously. Of course the author GMatthew or any other book can apply whatever ideas he wants. After all, the entire Tanakh was available in his Greek languages. What's the big deal.
But you should see all the scriptural references used by the Sabbateans to show that Shabtai Zvi WAS the real Messiah. There is no end to these exercises when there isn't a strict tradition of teachings on all these matters. As we say, Eyn Ledavar Sof - There is no end to the matter.

Oh I see. So it can't apply to the Messiah if Matthew says it does but when I show you that even the Midrash express such an idea you just shrug it off. Well if that is the way you wish to go about things then I think that is as far as we can go on this matter. And while the NT was disseminated in greek scholars have recognized the hebraisms in the NT particularly the book of Matthew for a long time now.

[Dave2]

And Matthew believes in the Law of Moses just like the Midrash. So what? Obviously there are overlap and similarities. But as I said before, since Christianity claims to be the *fulfillment* of Judaism, it has the burden to prove it so. And showing a similar view on something doesn't do it.

[resistingrexmundi]

And Matthew believes in the Law of Moses just like the Midrash. So what? Obviously there are overlap and similarities. But as I said before, since Christianity claims to be the *fulfillment* of Judaism, it has the burden to prove it so. And showing a similar view on something doesn't do it.

Dave2 I have been as gracious with you as I can. You raise objection after objection and side issue after side issue and when these have been addressed you either ignore them or treat them as of little consequence. You were so adamant that the psalm did not refer to the Messiah and now that it has been demonstrated from your own traditions that it can be applied and rightly so to the Messiah you shrug it off. If that is the extent of your arguments and objections I have to wonder what your real goal is here.

I think I have been fair to you in answering your questions. I have taken quite a bit of time to do so. SO it is time for a little mutual exchange. My question to you is what has Yahweh done outside of Yeshua to bring gentiles into a knowledge of Him and His scriptures?

[Peter]

You were so adamant that the psalm did not refer to the Messiah and now that it has been demonstrated from your own traditions that it can be applied and rightly so to the Messiah you shrug it off. If that is the extent of your arguments and objections I have to wonder what your real goal is here.

There is no extent of his argument because he has not been able to even begin to make one. Instead he chooses childlike rebellion entirely devoid of reason. But then the purpose in our engaging types like him, is for the sake of his brethren that follow, that may be genuinely seeking the truth and will see that he stands naked.

Dave even understands that the traditions of the men he follows have joined him with Jew hating Nazis, skinheads, Louis Farrakan and the Nation of Islam, David Duke and the KKK, and Soviets, whose anti-Zionism is advancing the Islamic conquest, and subjugation of Israeli Jews and Christians to Muhammad's followers. His support for Islamic conquest doesn't seem to concern him any more than the 2 million slain or displaced by Muhammad's followers - in the Sudan alone - likely does. Perhaps he believes those Jew hating anti-Zionists listed are all bound for glory. The difference for Dave is that before he came here he may have been able to plead ignorance when he stands before our creator in judgment.

My question to you is what has Yahweh done outside of Yeshua to bring gentiles into a knowledge of Him and His scriptures?

Let's finish this topic before introducing another one. According to the terms I requested of us, after we finish with this topic it will be Dave's turn, to request an answer to a PRIOR question or point that he believes we didn't answer. Then it's your turn.

[Peter]

I think you take things too seriously. Of course the author GMatthew or any other book can apply whatever ideas he wants. After all, the entire Tanakh was available in his Greek languages. What's the big deal.

So Dave, are you denying that Jesus existed?
Or are you denying that Jesus was crucified?

Mat 27:35 And they crucified him.....

Or are you denying that Jesus' hands and feet were pierced?

Psalms 22:17 For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me, like a lion, my hands and feet. 18. I tell about all my bones. They look and gloat over me.

Or are you denying that they parted Jesus' garments and cast lots as indicated in Psalms?

19.They share my garments among themselves and cast lots for my raiment.

(Mat 27:35 continued).....and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.

Or are you only denying that Jesus said the following, exactly as Psalms says?

Psalms 22:2 My God, my God, why have You forsaken me? [You are] far from my salvation [and] from the words of my moaning.

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

[Dave2]

The gospels say different things about a man whose existence in the first century is not credible.
Even the Pauline epistles do not identify his Jesus with the Baptist or Pilate in the first century.  The epistles say nothing about these verses and say nothing about Malachi or Isaiah messianic prophecies at all, including Isaiah 53. That is because the epistles exhibit a religious tradition different from that of the gospels which themselves differ on traditions and beliefs. Not to mention the Epistle to the Hebrews which introduces a different typology again.

[Mike S]

I've got to chime in here

The gospels say different things about a man whose existence in the first century is not credible.

Dave, the 4 gospels were written by 4 different authors, each using their own perspective. Of course they say different things. But there are also many common things between the gospels. As far as his existence, there is plenty of evidence, including the writings of Jocephus, a historian of that time.

Even the Pauline epistles do not identify his Jesus with the Baptist or Pilate in the first century.  The epistles say nothing about these verses and say nothing about Malachi or Isaiah messianic prophecies at all, including Isaiah 53. That is because the epistles exhibit a religious tradition different from that of the gospels which themselves differ on traditions and beliefs.

Dave, that is because the subjects of the epistles were not directly about the fulfillment of the messianic prophecies. The fulfillment of those prophecies by Jesus of Nazareth was taken as fact by the writers of the epistles, so they did not need to rehash that subject. They were about how Christ-followers were to live their lives.

 

Not to mention the Epistle to the Hebrews which introduces a different typology again.

Dave, look at the full title of Hebrews. It is "The Letter to the Hebrews" (ESV)
It was to Christ-followers who grew up in and followed Jewish traditions and religious beliefs. So, again, just a different perspective.

You seem to spend a lot of time throwing up straw arguments in order to avoid answering questions and facing the truth, in order to justify your own beliefs.

[Peter]

I've got to chime in here

The gospels say different things about a man whose existence in the first century is not credible.

Dave, the 4 gospels were written by 4 different authors, each using their own perspective.

Mike, he has already been told the same thing you wrote, seems like 5 or 10 times. With his back against the wall, he has now chosen to dismiss the New Testament as a work of fiction, so please let Dave, resisting and I continue without interruption. This chat has been going on for many days, and coming in after the fact you will be adding things that have already been discussed, allowing Dave to use you as an opportunity to obfuscate.
Because Dave ignored point after point in post after post, I finally had to set up rules for this exchange, as detailed in this post:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3238.msg13651#msg13651

[Peter]

The gospels say different things about a man whose existence in the first century is not credible.

So then in spite of the available evidence you are denying that Jesus ever existed.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2572.0

In spite of all the reference to Him in the Talmud, before those passages were removed, and then restored.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_the_Talmud

Does everybody in what you admit is your tiny group among Jews, deny that Jesus existed?
If I asked those men who create the tradition that you follow, if they believe that Jesus existed, would they answer "no"?

[Peter]

Even the Pauline epistles do not identify his Jesus with the Baptist or Pilate in the first century.  The epistles say nothing about these verses and say nothing about Malachi or Isaiah messianic prophecies at all, including Isaiah 53.

Was that intended to be some kind of a joke? Is the only time a prophecy considered to be fulfilled when a prophet declares it to be fulfilled? Much less that each and every prophet and Apostle must declare it to be fulfilled, for it to be fulfilled?

Yet we can see, how after the prophecies are fulfilled, how perfectly they were fulfilled in the Lamb of God. Not even a bone of Him was broken.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3080.0

Isaiah 53:1. Who would have believed our report, and to whom was the arm of the Lord revealed? 2. And he came up like a sapling before it, and like a root from dry ground, he had neither form nor comeliness; and we saw him that he had no appearance. Now shall we desire him? 3. Despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and we held him of no account. 4. Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed. 5. But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed. 6. We all went astray like sheep, we have turned, each one on his way, and the Lord accepted his prayers for the iniquity of all of us. 7. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he would not open his mouth; like a lamb to the slaughter he would be brought, and like a ewe that is mute before her shearers, and he would not open his mouth. 8. From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them. 9. And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. 10. And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand. 11. From the toil of his soul he would see, he would be satisfied; with his knowledge My servant would vindicate the just for many, and their iniquities he would bear. 12. Therefore, I will allot him a portion in public, and with the strong he shall share plunder, because he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors.

Over and over you suggest an Apostle left something out, even though others include it. AND AGAIN (how many times now Dave? seem 5? 10?), as in all the other times you repeated this foolishness, the answer remains - that they are not carbon copies of each other is how we can know their accounts are independent yet complementary, demonstrating their divine inspiration.

That is because the epistles exhibit a religious tradition different from that of the gospels which themselves differ on traditions and beliefs. Not to mention the Epistle to the Hebrews which introduces a different typology again.

Since you believe that Jesus did not exist, then you must believe the Gospel is a work of pure fiction, in spite of the evidence, this chat is complete. If I have unfairly characterized your view, then please let me know.

I'll add Psalms 22 from the Tanach for the benefit of those that come after you, that are honestly seeking truth. I plan to continue to embellish it with links.

Psalms - Chapter 22

1. For the conductor, on the ayeleth hashachar, a song of David.
2. My God, my God, why have You forsaken me? [You are] far from my salvation [and] from the words of my moaning.
3. My God, I call out by day and You do not reply, and at night I do not keep silent.
4. But You are holy; You await the praises of Israel.
5. Our ancestors trusted in You; they trusted and You rescued them.
6. They cried out to You and they escaped; they trusted in You and they were not shamed.
7. But I am a worm and not a man; a reproach of man, despised by peoples.
8. All who see me will mock me; they will open their lips, they will shake their head.
9. One should cast his trust upon the Lord, and He will rescue him; He will save him because He delights in him.
10. For You drew me from the womb; You made me secure on my mother's breasts.
11. Upon You, I was cast from birth; from my mother's womb You are my God.
12. Do not distance Yourself from me, for distress is near; for there is none to help.
13. Great bulls have surrounded me; the mighty ones of Bashan encompassed me.
14. They opened their mouth against me [like] a tearing, roaring lion.
15. I was spilled like water, and all my bones were separated; my heart was like wax, melting within my innards.
16. My strength became dried out like a potsherd, and my tongue cleaves to my palate; and You set me down in the dust of death.
17. For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me, like a lion, my hands and feet.
18. I tell about all my bones. They look and gloat over me.
19. They share my garments among themselves and cast lots for my raiment.
20. But You, O Lord, do not distance Yourself; my strength, hasten to my assistance.
21. Save my soul from the sword, my only one from the grip of the dog.
22. Save me from the lion's mouth, as from the horns of the wild oxen You answered me.
23. I will tell Your name to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will praise You.
24. You who fear the Lord, praise Him; all the seed of Jacob, honor Him, and fear Him, all the seed of Israel.
25. For He has neither despised nor abhorred the cry of the poor, neither has He hidden His countenance from him; and when he cried out to Him, He hearkened.
26. Because of You is my praise in the great congregation; I pay my vows in the presence of those who fear Him.
27. The humble shall eat and be sated; they shall praise the Lord, those who seek him; your hearts shall live forever.
28. All the ends of the earth shall remember and return to the Lord, and all the families of the nations shall prostrate themselves before You.
29. For the kingship is the Lord's, and He rules over the nations.
30. They shall eat all the best of the earth and prostrate themselves; before Him shall all those who descend to the dust kneel, and He will not quicken his soul.
31. The seed that worships Him; it shall be told to the generation concerning the Lord.
32. They shall come and tell His righteousness to the newborn people, that which He has done

[Dave2]

Peter, thank you for avoiding my point. You did not address the fact that the pauline epistles make no mention even a single time in thousands of words of either Pilate, the Baptist or Mary. No mention of Isaiah 53 in a single epistle or Malachi 3 or 4 in reference to Elijah or the Baptist preceding the Christ. No mention of any other messianic verses in Isaiah either. Nor do the epistles mention the Son of Man.
Mike, you also forget about some salient points. It's not just a question of different "perspectives." It's that they had different information about who their Jesus was. After all, neither GMark nor GJohn have a nativity story, and the two stories that do exist have different information about "what happened." If you look at a comparative chart you'll see that, and the fact that GJohn not only did not know about many of the parables in the other gospels, but that his introductory doctrinal idea of the Word becoming flesh, which is popular in the 4th creeds, is nowhere to be seen either in the epistles or the other gospels.

[resistingrexmundi]

Peter, thank you for avoiding my point. You did not address the fact that the pauline epistles make no mention even a single time in thousands of words of either Pilate, the Baptist or Mary. No mention of Isaiah 53 in a single epistle or Malachi 3 or 4 in reference to Elijah or the Baptist preceding the Christ. No mention of any other messianic verses in Isaiah either. Nor do the epistles mention the Son of Man.
Mike, you also forget about some salient points. It's not just a question of different "perspectives." It's that they had different information about who their Jesus was. After all, neither GMark nor GJohn have a nativity story, and the two stories that do exist have different information about "what happened." If you look at a comparative chart you'll see that, and the fact that GJohn not only did not know about many of the parables in the other gospels, but that his introductory doctrinal idea of the Word becoming flesh, which is popular in the 4th creeds, is nowhere to be seen either in the epistles or the other gospels.

Dave2 you have not stuck to the agreement. AND you have conveniently forgotten that things like this happens in the OT. Why is Genesis 1 and 2 so different? Are you willing to put the OT to the same level of scrutiny that you apply to the NT?

[Peter]

Peter, thank you for avoiding my point.

It is no more of a point this time, then all the other times you dithered on with it.

You did not address the fact that the pauline epistles make no mention even a single time in thousands of words of either Pilate, the Baptist or Mary. No mention of Isaiah 53 in a single epistle or Malachi 3 or 4 in reference to Elijah or the Baptist preceding the Christ. No mention of any other messianic verses in Isaiah either. Nor do the epistles mention the Son of Man.

WE'VE ANSWERED THIS FOOLISHNESS OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER. Paul did not worship Mary or even express a mild interest in Mary any more than any of the other Apostles did. Nor did Paul worship the ground that Jesus walked on, nor did he have an interest in the empty, dead, desolated, obsolete, old covenant temple of Herod. Any subjects he did not write about, such as Messianic prophecies that you mention, or any other subjects that he did not write about, he didn't write about BECAUSE HE WAS NOT INSPIRED TO WRITE ABOUT THEM!!!! This is because Paul was writing in the Spirit and not in the flesh, as the men that you follow do, who dictate what you are to believe through the flesh. On that note, rather than talking about what Paul didn't say - which would be a ridiculously irrelevant exercise completely disconnected from reality - let's look as something Paul DID say in regard to putting your faith in men:

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

Put it in simpler terms.
SO WHAT!!! if Paul didn't say what you wish he had said? Do you think Paul should be under an obligation to have written what you dictate? Can't you see how ridiculous your non-point is? But it's exactly what another group of liars - the Muslims - do. "Well if blah, blah, then why didn't so and so say blah, blah, blah?"
The same effort at obfuscation to run and hide from all that is written in the Gospel, and for the same reasons, regarding the crucifixion, death and resurrection of the passover Lamb of God.
Since you can't seem to handle more than one sentence at a time I'll try to number them from now on.

1.What did the Gospel writers have to gain, by creating a fictional first century character, and then writing books about Him, the subject of which is His crucifixion?
Why were they willing to be tortured and murdered for the fiction they created?

2. AGAIN, does everybody in what you admit is your tiny group among Jews, deny that Jesus existed?
If I asked those men who create the tradition that you follow, if they believe that Jesus existed, would they answer "no"?
Why don't you try being honest with me, and with yourself for a change, and give me an honest answer to this question.

[Dave2]

There is no sense in getting aggravated. And I REPEAT: I was not talking about WORSHIPPING Mary. I was talking about ANY mention of the mother who gave birth to Christ as a miracle of the virgin birth, period. There is no sense in avoiding the other issues: that the epistles make no mention of the Baptist or of Pilate, or the storylines and aphorisms contained in the gospels. Or a nativity story, or Judas, etc. etc. Now don't get mad, just think about it. Nothing is mentioned even in passing like any good pastor would do in giving a sermon to his flock. Nothing in all of the thousands of words of all those epsitles. Nothing of Isaiah 53 or Malachi 3 or 4 concerning an Elijah figure.

[Peter]

There is no sense in getting aggravated. And I REPEAT: I was not talking about WORSHIPPING Mary.

It's clear that you're just putting your effort into purely squandering our time now. READ IT AGAIN.

"Paul did not worship Mary or even express a mild interest in Mary..."
BECAUSE HE WAS NOT INSPIRED TO.

Your mind seems broken in the very same fashion that Muhammad's followers minds, are when they are dithering on as automatons, while working from an Ahmed Deedat script.

I was talking about ANY mention of the mother who gave birth to Christ as a miracle of the virgin birth, period. There is no sense in avoiding the other issues: that the epistles make no mention of the Baptist or of Pilate, or the storylines and aphorisms contained in the gospels. Or a nativity story, or Judas, etc. etc. Now don't get mad, just think about it. Nothing is mentioned even in passing like any good pastor would do in giving a sermon to his flock. Nothing in all of the thousands of words of all those epsitles. Nothing of Isaiah 53 or Malachi 3 or 4 concerning an Elijah figure.

Asked and answered. Now please answer the 2 numbered questions in this post http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3238.msg13688#msg13688 regarding Jesus and the crucifixion.
If you try to introduce even a single element of any other subject in reply every such post will go to spam. Quit being non-responsive and obfuscating with additional subjects.

[resistingrexmundi]

There is no sense in getting aggravated. And I REPEAT: I was not talking about WORSHIPPING Mary. I was talking about ANY mention of the mother who gave birth to Christ as a miracle of the virgin birth, period. There is no sense in avoiding the other issues: that the epistles make no mention of the Baptist or of Pilate, or the storylines and aphorisms contained in the gospels. Or a nativity story, or Judas, etc. etc. Now don't get mad, just think about it. Nothing is mentioned even in passing like any good pastor would do in giving a sermon to his flock. Nothing in all of the thousands of words of all those epsitles. Nothing of Isaiah 53 or Malachi 3 or 4 concerning an Elijah figure.

So what. The epistles were not gospel narratives. They were instructions for Christians who had already received the Gospel. And I ask you since Daniel did not mention the same Messianic prophecies as Isaiah does that mean they didn't happen? And Paul quotes from the gospels in his epistles showing they were already in circulation. You are purposely putting all your effort into not understanding.