Dave2's questions

[Peter]

Peter, I honestly don't know what it is you are demanding on your Board from me.

Then why don't you try reading my last post and replying to it instead of ignoring it. I even numbered the questions for you. Everything unrelated to those two points goes to spam. If any additional unrelated material is included in answer, then the whole post goes to spam storage until you do answer directly and succinctly. http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=26.0

[Peter]

Here are the questions again.

1.What did the Gospel writers have to gain, by creating a fictional first century character, and then writing books about Him, the subject of which is His crucifixion?
Why were they willing to be tortured and murdered for the fiction they created?

2. AGAIN, does everybody in what you admit is your tiny group among Jews, deny that Jesus existed?
If I asked those men who create the tradition that you follow, if they believe that Jesus existed, would they answer "no"?
Why don't you try being honest with me, and with yourself for a change, and give me an honest answer to this question.

[Peter]

Try it again Dave.

2. AGAIN, does everybody in what you admit is your tiny group among Jews, deny that Jesus existed?

Does your group deny that Jesus existed AT ALL? YES OR NO

If I asked those men who create the tradition that you follow, if they believe that Jesus existed, would they answer "no"?

Would your Rabbis deny that Jesus existed AT ALL? YES OR NO

Let me add:

Would your Rabbis deny that Jesus was killed in the first century? YES OR NO

[Dave2]

There is no source at all in traditional Jewish sources for the existence of the NT Jesus in the first century. I have not taken a poll of all Orthodox Jews and their rabbis. But I can say that anyone who knows about the sources on this subject agrees with me. The Jesus of the NT gospel stories is based on Yeshu ben Pandera.

[Peter]

There is no source at all in traditional Jewish sources for the existence of the NT Jesus in the first century. I have not taken a poll of all Orthodox Jews and their rabbis.

I asked if the Rabbis that YOU put in authority over YOU believe that Jesus existed.
Why don't you put you big boy pants on and simply answer the question?

But I can say that anyone who knows about the sources on this subject agrees with me. The Jesus of the NT gospel stories is based on Yeshu ben Pandera.

STOP THE OBFUSCATION. You have been avoiding this question for days. I didn't ask if they believed in a "NT Jesus" or if you believed in the Gospel Jesus.

What I asked about is if they believe that figure existed at all. A 1st century figure that claimed he was the Messiah.

If the historical figure - that most of the rest of the world at least believe existed - existed.
And if the men in authority over you believe that historical figure was killed.

[Dave2]

I don't think you read properly. I wasn't saying anyone BELIEVED in the NT Jesus but was talking about believing he EXISTED.
And no, the rabbis I know who are familiar with this subject do not believe the Jesus of the NT ever existed. They agree that the person in the NT was modeled after Yeshu ben Joseph Pandera of the Talmud who was hanged after stoning on the eve of Passover not for pretending to be a messiah but for teaching heretical ideas and deceiving the Jews. It changed into a messianic story long after the fact. Satisfied now??

[Peter]

I don't think you read properly. I wasn't saying anyone BELIEVED in the NT Jesus but was talking about believing he EXISTED.
And no, the rabbis I know who are familiar with this subject do not believe the Jesus of the NT ever existed.

So they deny that there was any historical person in the first century claimed to be the Messiah.

They agree that the person in the NT was modeled after Yeshu ben Joseph Pandera of the Talmud who was hanged after stoning on the eve of Passover not for pretending to be a messiah but for teaching heretical ideas and deceiving the Jews. It changed into a messianic story long after the fact. Satisfied now??

I just needed for you to say it Dave. That is amusing. Faith in unbelief, outside of reason, just like an atheist. My you and yours DO suffer from self-imposed blindness! Ignoring the historical reality, while creating your own fictional history, just like the followers of Muhammad did. Even the famous agnostic that the Muslims like to trot out - Bart Ehrman - understands that the historical evidence for Jesus existing and having been crucified is simply too overwhelming and compelling to deny. This while by your own admission, the fiction that you believe regarding the basis that you pretend the Gospel is spun from, isn't even close to the same story. Isn't even related to a Messiah or crucifixion. A simple stoning, like Stephen and other disciples who proclaimed Christ crucified, were murdered by. So let's see how far you can spin your story Dave.

1. So how did it happen Dave? If Jesus didn't exist, then you must be making the claim that the people who wrote the Gospel, somehow just decided to sit down and write a work of pure fiction, with each never even having met a person who claimed to be the Messiah, and never having been exposed to a single one of the events they proclaimed?

2. How did their accounts tell the very same story, when according to you, they started out with an entirely different story? Did they all get together and plot each one's individual account?

3. What did they expect to gain by conspiring to create such a fantastic fiction Dave? Why would somebody do such a thing Dave? Was the reason that they created this fiction from thin air just so they could be tortured and killed for their testimony of the Messiah? Perhaps they were just masochists?

[Dave2]

There were many messianic claimants in history. Many stories, which we call "mayselach" in Yiddish. Of course the gospels were made up with aphorisms and moralizing found even in the words of Hillel the Pharisee. So what? It wasn't the first time, nor the last time, was it?
And we have been warned about new ideas circulating that are not authentic to Judaism:
]If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you

[Peter]

There were many messianic claimants in history. Many stories, which we call "mayselach" in Yiddish. Of course the gospels were made up with aphorisms and moralizing found even in the words of Hillel the Pharisee. So what? It wasn't the first time, nor the last time, was it?
And we have been warned about new ideas circulating that are not authentic to Judaism:
]If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,”

But blessedly we can know through the boatloads of fulfilled prophecy that it is the same God that spoke through the scirptures. As another example:

Psalms 2.7. I will tell of the decree; The Lord said to me, "You are My son; this day have I begotten you.

Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

But then our conversation is over Dave. You have gone out on a limb so far beyond any sort of reason or reality and even your brethren, that it is pointless to engage further in discussion. Let alone your ignoring the content of our posts until you are dragged kicking and screaming into reply. Just as in the case of atheists, who put their faith in disbelief while even refusing to consider the evidence, so you go.

[Dave2]

Except that despite the fact that you know so little Jewish history, Hebrew, Aramaic or how Judaism works you fulfill the verse referring to stiffnecked people!! How can a person be so stiffnecked when he cannot even be conversant in the subject of dispute. Even Jerome and Augustine and later commentators learned Hebrew well to be able to discuss these matters.

[Peter]

Except that despite the fact that you know so little Jewish history, Hebrew, Aramaic or how Judaism works you fulfill the verse referring to stiffnecked people!!

Sure Dave. Just like the Muslim's claim that the reason I see Islam's books painting Muhammad as a mass murdering, child doing, imperialistic conquering, female prisoner abusing, thief, is because I don't know Arabic.

How can a person be so stiffnecked when he cannot even be conversant in the subject of dispute. Even Jerome and Augustine and later commentators learned Hebrew well to be able to discuss these matters.

It wasn't my claim of fulfillment of prophecy but the Apostle's.
Yet you reject that profound truth, to believe that somehow God gave the guys who run your little cult the sole franchise on truth, even as the tradition of the men you put in authority over you drives you into hatred for your own Jewish brethren, while putting you in the company of the evil rotted Jew-hating fruit of the anti-Zionist tree, along with Nazis, skinheads, Soviets, Muslims, David Duke and the KKK. And yet you don't seem to be able to see the difficulty with all that.

[Dave2]

Truth based on WHAT?? On the fact that Jesus has not come back in 2000 years? On the fact that he did not fulfill the prophecies of peace on earth and God's kingdom? On the fact of all the contradictions between the Epistles and the Gospels and within the gospels and between the gospels and the epistles? The Truth is that the Torah was given to the Jewish People for eternity and the covenant of Abraham and Sinai is for eternity. Both Christianity and Islam have claimed to be the fulfillment of Judaism and neither has accomplished that at all.

[Peter]

Truth based on WHAT??

Truth based on the evidence that you and your ilk have run and hid from for almost 2,000 years. Unlike the Jews for Jesus, as just one example.
Truth based on the scriptures that your flesh oriented posts are generally devoid of.

On the fact that Jesus has not come back in 2000 years?

Exactly. As further confirmed by the miraculous fulfillment of the math problems I showed you, that indicate that we are only now in what Daniel's prophecy calls the "time of the end".
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3194.msg13498#msg13498
Anyone that would suggest that those problems are some sort of an weird mathematical and textual accident, would have to be astronomically ignorant to mathematical probability and statistics.
The restoration of Jews to their covenant land as another miraculous fulfillment, that attest that we are in the time of the end.

Amusingly, even as you attempted to mock, your awaited Messiah's arrival has eluded you for 3500 years, including the last 2,000 years after He was made manifest, yet you remain clueless. Even as you can see that Yahweh arranged to have your desolate temple destroyed, and prevented replacement thereof in this new covenant era. You still can't see the temple of God in this Christian era, because of your obstinate disobedience to Yahweh. Even railing against your fellow Jews while embracing Nazis, skinheads, Muslims and the KKK. Floating around in darkness without a compass to guide you. Going through the motions dictated by the men that you put in authority over you.

On the fact that he did not fulfill the prophecies of peace on earth and God's kingdom?

I am in the kingdom of God my friend, and no longer of this world. Christ rules and reigns with a rod of iron in His kingdom today! Man is fallen, and born in original sin, ever since Adam's fall. The kingdoms of this world have also been Satan's legal possession ever since Adam's fall. Things of this world are prophesied to only get worse, before the second coming of the our blessed Messiah, the Prince of Peace, the Lamb of God.

On the fact of all the contradictions between the Epistles and the Gospels and within the gospels and between the gospels and the epistles?

All you blathered about in here, were things that in your personal opinion you personally think should have been included in the Epistles, that weren't. Because you could only think of things in terms of the flesh, rather than the Spirit.

The Truth is that the Torah was given to the Jewish People for eternity and the covenant of Abraham and Sinai is for eternity.

I couldn't agree more! YOU are the one who rejects those everlasting covenants and rejects Yahweh for restoring His people to their covenant land - not for their sakes - but for His name's sake.

So what is a Jew in this new covenant era Dave?

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

Those same men you praise and place in authority over you that have you married to Nazis, skinheads, Muslims and the KKK.

Both Christianity and Islam have claimed to be the fulfillment of Judaism and neither has accomplished that at all.

Sure Dave. That's why you are in a tiny splinter cult that even separates themselves from the .02% of the world's Jewish population, while those of us that recognize Jesus is the Messiah compose more like 1/4 to 1/3 of the world's population. A real failure of our Messiah, who rules and reigns in his kingdom today, eigh Dave?

Whereas the ridiculous notion of Muhammadanism is unsupported in terms of scripture, history, archaeology and geography. in other words a preposterously non-starter. It is your anti-Zionist cult that relates more closely to anti-Zionist Islam, than the Christianity, particularly since Muslims must proclaim the EXACT OPPOSITE of the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel.

[Peter]

Your Zionism post was moved to the appropriate thread:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3218.msg13734#msg13734

[Dave2]

You call it a cult when you don't even know what a cult is unless you clearly prefer to label anything a cult that you don't agree with. Zionism is a cult an atheistic non-kosher pseudo-messianic cult started by that scum of a fake Jew, Theodor Herzl, may his name rot in hell. Go do some studying of 20th century Jewish history and start with the 1880s. He hated Judaism and he will never get out of the hell prepared for him for his sins which make Jeroboam ben Nevat look like a holy man alongside Herzl.

[Peter]

You call it a cult when you don't even know what a cult is unless you clearly prefer to label anything a cult that you don't agree with.

One hallmark of a cult is folks that follow men. Like Muhammad, Charles Taze Russel, Joseph Smith, Charles Manson, and the men whose tradition you follow, that even join you with other anti-Zionist cults like Nazis, Muslims and the KKK.

Zionism is a cult an atheistic non-kosher pseudo-messianic cult started by that scum of a fake Jew, Theodor Herzl, may his name rot in hell. Go do some studying of 20th century Jewish history and start with the 1880s.

Typical device of anti-Zionists, to begin the history of Israel at the end of the 19th century when the term "Zionism" was coined, while conveniently ignoring the early 19th century when the restoration of the Jews to their land actually began, in order to advance your anti-Zionist lies.

Exposing your abject ignorance to history - not only of the historicity of Jesus as exhibited earlier - but to the history of your own people. http://petewaldo.com/zionism.htm

Anyway, you are demonizing the wrong guy. The guys you really need to go after are those like John Adams for championing the idea, and Rabbi Shmuel Salant who arrived in Jerusalem in 1841, and under whose tenure as chief rabbi the population of Jerusalem grew from 5,000 to 30,000.

Any gentile, and particularly any Jew that could leaf through the history of how Jews were treated in gentile lands, and not understand the need for a place where they could live by their own laws and determine their own destiny - particularly in the land that God gave them through an everlasting covenant - would seem no Jew at all. Perhaps just a New York city dwelling bag of hot air that proclaims to know what's best for the Israelis, even as he labors to advance Islamic conquest, and subjugation of Israeli Jews and Christians to Muhammad's followers. No surprise then that you are so obsessed with demonizing Paul, just like your anti-Zionist Muslim partners do:

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

Regarding the blasphemy of your accusations against God, for restoring His people to their covenant land to end the profaning of His Holy name, thereby demonstrating His power in a way that even heathens can understand - let alone your blasphemy against our Messiah:

Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [I know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but [are] the synagogue of Satan.

He hated Judaism and he will never get out of the hell prepared for him for his sins which make Jeroboam ben Nevat look like a holy man alongside Herzl.

[Dave2]

Well, you can't have it both ways. Either you want to talk about Zionism as the active political movement started by that jerk Herzl, may his name rot in hell, or you can talk about other groups who simply wanted Jews to follow the Torah loyally without political aspirations of worldly western hedonism. When you get your back against the wall, you jump back 100 years further.

[resistingrexmundi]

Well, you can't have it both ways. Either you want to talk about Zionism as the active political movement started by that jerk Herzl, may his name rot in hell, or you can talk about other groups who simply wanted Jews to follow the Torah loyally without political aspirations of worldly western hedonism. When you get your back against the wall, you jump back 100 years further.

Let me ask you something Dave2. Do you believe that God wishes for one of His own to have so much hatred for anyone. Even someone you consider an enemy? Do you think God wishes anyone to be in hell?

[Dave2]

Of course we hate those who hate G-d and his Torah, whether they are born Jews or non-Jews. Similarly, we love those who love G-d and his Torah, whether they be Jews or non-Jews. As King David said in psalm 139, "Mesanecha Ani Esneh." I hate those who hate You.
As far as Gehennom is concerned, we know that Korach and his evil group went there, as did many others, both Jews and non-Jews. Many people get the idea that the Torah/Tanakh show favoritism to Jews, which is totally untrue.

[resistingrexmundi]

Of course we hate those who hate G-d and his Torah, whether they are born Jews or non-Jews. Similarly, we love those who love G-d and his Torah, whether they be Jews or non-Jews. As King David said in psalm 139, "Mesanecha Ani Esneh." I hate those who hate You.
As far as Gehennom is concerned, we know that Korach and his evil group went there, as did many others, both Jews and non-Jews. Many people get the idea that the Torah/Tanakh show favoritism to Jews, which is totally untrue.

Dave2, you are in serious bondage my friend. God is the Father of all and He weeps when one of His are lost. You should know that David often spoke in hyperbole. Particularly in his anger. David would not raise a hand against Saul because he was one of God's anointed. He could easily have hated Saul but he didn't. Also God gave commandments to help and love your enemy. Psalm 35 is a great example of the psalmist loving those who hated him. Exodus 23:4-5 is another example of this principle in play. If God expects us to love those who do wrong to us don't you think it would be hypocritical if God didn't keep the same standard for Himself?

[Dave2]

For heaven's sake. Don't give me the example of Saul. He was a great righteous man following the Torah in all respects who committed some mistakes for which he had to pay dearly as you know. We are commanded to hate evil and to separate from the heretics. Three times a day we recite in our prayers:
"To the Informers let there be no hope, and let all the Sectarians be lost, and let all the Enemies of your People be cut off, and let the Intentional Evildoers quickly be broken, suppressed, finished, and give up quickly in our days. Blessed are You who breaks the Sectarians and puts down the intentional evildoers.

[Peter]

We are commanded to hate evil and to separate from the heretics.

So are we.
Not hate heretics or any persons.

[resistingrexmundi]

For heaven's sake. Don't give me the example of Saul. He was a great righteous man following the Torah in all respects who committed some mistakes for which he had to pay dearly as you know. We are commanded to hate evil and to separate from the heretics. Three times a day we recite in our prayers:
"To the Informers let there be no hope, and let all the Sectarians be lost, and let all the Enemies of your People be cut off, and let the Intentional Evildoers quickly be broken, suppressed, finished, and give up quickly in our days. Blessed are You who breaks the Sectarians and puts down the intentional evildoers.

Saul wasn't the only example I gave and you still didn't answer the question. Would God hold us to a standard He Himself doesn't keep? And even if Saul was the only example surely you realize that whether or not you consider him righteous he was still David's enemy and vicariously God's. And yet David did not hate him.

[Peter]

A serpent seed doctrine holder claims he doesn't hate Jews. Then goes on to say just those Jews that in his opinion are not Jews. He justifies his hatred by saying that since God expressed a hatred of a person he is justified in doing the same.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3134.msg13390#msg13390
I'll see if I can dig up post with the old testament reference that he uses (not that it matters).
Interesting that he and Dave both hate Jews, and both base their hatred on Zionism. Both running with Nazis, skinheads, Muslims and the KKK in doing so.

Edit add: Found it. hillbillybushcraft (forum ID Michael2) believes it's OK for him to hate persons, because God expressed His personal hatred for Esau. http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3134.msg13391#msg13391

And since Arnold Murray relabeled - just some - Jews who he claimed were the seed of a sexual union between Satan and Eve, by name "Kenites" his followers say they don't hate Jews, but only "Kenites".
As many times as he was asked, he could never explain how he selects which Israeli Jews to hate from those he chooses not to hate.

So Dave, do you hate all Jews in Israel, or just those Jews that believe that Yahweh restored them to their land in accordance with bible prophecy?

[Dave2]

Perhaps you have difficulty reading English. I never said that people who do not believe like me are not Jews. However, just as you do, I believe people are IN ERROR. Jews have been subject to 64 years of incessant Zionist propaganda accompanied by all the bribery and other means of ensuring support, mainly through FEAR MONGERING. But it's not a big deal. This "state" with all its murder, idolatry and immorality will come to an end with its desecration of the Torah and the name of God.