DO YOU TRULY BELIEVE IN ONE GOD?

[khalib]

God conscience is taking God for a conscience and living your life in line with the sentence there is no deity except God which is essentially saying that I take full responsibility for my behavior and I understand that I am accountable to no one except God. It is also declaring that no creation on this earth living or non living, in the past, present, or future be it our desire, emotions, clergy, culture or conscience, has a right to control, force us or relieve us of this responsibility.

So can you honestly say you have God conscience? Or have you taken others for a conscience? If yes than that is idolatry.

[Peter]

Hello khalib, and welcome to the forum!

God conscience is taking God for a conscience and living your life in line with the sentence there is no deity except God which is essentially saying that I take full responsibility for my behavior and I understand that I am accountable to no one except God.

Indeed we are all accountable for our sins, and no matter how great or small, it is sin that separates us from God. From early in God's revelation to mankind we learned that sin had to be atoned for:

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh [is] in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it [is] the blood [that] maketh an atonement for the soul.

The whole purpose of the alter in the temple that God had His people build on the temple mount, was for sacrifice of animals for blood atonement for sin.

Exd 29:36    And thou shalt offer every day a bullock [for] a sin offering for atonement: and thou shalt cleanse the altar, when thou hast made an atonement for it, and thou shalt anoint it, to sanctify it.

It is also declaring that no creation on this earth living or non living, in the past, present, or future be it our desire, emotions, clergy, culture or conscience, has a right to control, force us or relieve us of this responsibility.

If there were no blood price paid for our sins, we would be separated from God forever, because there are none righteous. We are all lowly sinful wretches.

Rom 3:10    As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

A human could never earn our way to be in the presence of a perfect God. Blessedly our Savior was revealed to the world to provide an atonement for sin. The whole subject of the Gospel - indeed the whole bible.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm

Please visit this thread on the Gospel:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1175.0

If you prefer a video version, please try this YouTube search:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2605.0

Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Here is what the prophet Jesus prophesied of His own crucifixion for that blood atonement:

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

What Jesus meant by "in the Psalms" was that His crucifixion was prophesied many hundreds of years before it took place:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/psalms_22.htm

Also "in the prophets" because it was prophesied by Isaiah:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/isaiah_53.htm

Those two Old Testament prophesies are responsible for bringing many Jews into relationship with Jesus Christ.

So can you honestly say you have God conscience?

God transcends a conscience since He is perfect. Perhaps I am misunderstanding because of language.

Or have you taken others for a conscience? If yes than that is idolatry.

What some refer to as a conscience is the Spirit of God striving with mankind. That is how we can tell the difference between right and wrong. God's Spirit is one part of the Godhead - a part of God.

Welcome to the forum my friend!

[khalib]

Hi Peter and thanks for a very nice reply,

What God transcends is not conscience but thought because If we are able to know or understand God directly through our thoughts than we too would be God or His equal. What we can know, and understand is our relationship with Him.

If we define conscience as that which we willingly choose to serve as our moral compass i.e- science, religion, culture, clergy…, then God or His revelation (be it Quran, Bible..) is our conscience if He is what we have chosen to serve as a guide. Hence what I meant by “do you truly believe in one God” is what you have taken for a conscience or in other words what guides your decisions in every aspect of your life. You can’t tell me it’s the bible or the Quran unless it meets these two criteria:
1.   Does your Holy Book contain complete guidance in terms of behavior and relationships within and beyond your society in terms of business, marriage, the economy, taxation, family…? If no than there is a problem, what do you use for a conscience in these instances? Please don’t tell me right and wrong are your guide because nothing can be more subjective than right and wrong. The guidance must be just and universal so that it can serve as a guide to all people regardless of culture, color, tribe, nation…
2.   Is your holy book the direct word of God, conveyed and written as was intended? Only the direct and unimpeded word of God can fulfill the above mentioned point, otherwise customs, traditions, science, desires, emotions, and clergy begin to fill the gap and thus become our conscience, leading us astray.

As I mentioned earlier we cannot know God directly but we can understand our relationship with Him. From this relationship we derive certain attributes of God which define this relationship. One of Gods attributes is that He is The Just.  He is Just in His relationship with us which is why when Lucifer or Satan stated that he would mislead the sons of Adam God responded by saying he can only misguide the person who through choice decides to follow him; God denied him any power over people because that would not be just. 
I can go on and on but the point I am trying to make is that the whole concept of sin and atonement as you stated does not fit in with the attributes of a Just and ABLE God.  Generally speaking sin is not evil and neither is it a flaw in our creation.  Sin is a necessary part of our existence which is why God provided us with forgiveness. It is only through our mistakes that we realize and learn and pass this information on to the next generation allowing us to socially evolve and advance as a species. Sins are nothing but mistakes and forgiveness is to realize and learn from these mistakes so that you don’t repeat them. I am not calling Universal morals such as murder, rape, stealing… mistakes, no, these are extremes of sin. For example Anger may be good because it can motivate us to do that which is good, but rage or extreme anger may be evil because it can take over our senses and cause us to harm others.
God is One, The Just without a beginning and end. I agree with you that we can never earn heaven on our merit but by the grace of God. This however does not mean you don’t put effort into doing Good; of course this goes against logic. People must place effort into avoiding the extremes of sin as well as mistakes which may lead to harming others as well as themselves. How do you than measure this effort? This question Pete is I think where our two religions differ.
Correct me if I am wrong but yours claims this is measured by ones level of faith and acceptance that Jesus (Peace upon Him) died for your sins. While mine insists it is measured through ones faith and effort in abiding Gods law.

[Peter]

Hi Peter and thanks for a very nice reply,

What God transcends is not conscience but thought because If we are able to know or understand God directly through our thoughts than we too would be God or His equal. What we can know, and understand is our relationship with Him.

If we define conscience as that which we willingly choose to serve as our moral compass i.e- science, religion, culture, clergy…, then God or His revelation (be it Quran, Bible..) is our conscience if He is what we have chosen to serve as a guide. Hence what I meant by “do you truly believe in one God” is what you have taken for a conscience or in other words what guides your decisions in every aspect of your life. You can’t tell me it’s the bible or the Quran unless it meets these two criteria:
1.   Does your Holy Book contain complete guidance in terms of behavior and relationships within and beyond your society in terms of business, marriage, the economy, taxation, family…? If no than there is a problem, what do you use for a conscience in these instances? Please don’t tell me right and wrong are your guide because nothing can be more subjective than right and wrong.

They are not at all subjective to a person guided by the Holy Spirit. When a person repents, and is baptized and "born again" we begin a relationship with Jesus Christ and He fills us with His Spirit. I earlier said that God poured His Spirit out ON all flesh, however once a person is born again God is IN us, and we in Him.

1Jo 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of the world. 15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

Here's the way the Old Testament prophet Jeremiah prophesied of the new covenant, that Jesus ushered in many hundreds of years later, when Jesus was made manifest to the world:

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

You see? God IN us teaching and guiding us. His law is written in His people's hearts:

John 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The Holy Spirit is what is guiding me in composing this post.
Being of His Spirit is how God's people ARE His temple in this new covenant era:

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.  20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

1Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/temple_of_god.htm

That's why Herod's temple was torn down. To light the ONE WAY to God the Father:

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

The ONE sacrifice for sin forever:

Hbr 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

We also have the scriptures to guide and confirm. For example: 1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

We are washed by the blood of the Lamb of God.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Jesus was crucified during passover (which Jews still celebrate). Jesus became the passover Lamb. Here's a thread on the passover lamb.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3080.0

[Peter]

The guidance must be just and universal so that it can serve as a guide to all people regardless of culture, color, tribe, nation…

That's exactly what His Spirit does. Transcending all of that and and more. For example a "born again" Christian doesn't even have to be able to read, or understand the law, because it is written in our hearts.

2.   Is your holy book the direct word of God, conveyed and written as was intended?

Yes it is. In fact we have over 5300 partial or complete transcripts that were penned prior to 300 AD, in many languages, from all over the known world. The fact that all of those manuscripts confirm each other assures us that the scriptures were handed down to us intact. Indeed to suggest that they were changed would require a plot throughout all those countries, to erase and change each of those manuscripts, in all of those languages. A ridiculous notion, isn't it. Also we have the Dead Sea Scrolls that were discovered in 1947 that confirmed that the scriptures we have today have been handed down to us intact.
Please read this thread on the topic of the textual integrity of the scriptures:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=97.0
Our scriptures are also confirmed by the historical, archaeological and geographical records. We have a whole forum section on the subject:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=68.0

[Peter]

Only the direct and unimpeded word of God can fulfill the above mentioned point, otherwise customs, traditions, science, desires, emotions, and clergy begin to fill the gap and thus become our conscience, leading us astray.

Most important are witnesses, otherwise we would only be taking an individual's word for things. For example:

Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
Mark 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, [saying], Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
2Peter 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
Mark 15:39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.
Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

You've probably heard of the Mormons, also called Church of the Latter Day Saints. They follow the words a 19th century individual named Joseph Smith, that claimed he met a shimmering angel named Maroni, that gave him revelations. He even added a book to the bible. The Book of Mormon. Yet not a single person ever witnessed any of his "revelations" being given to him. His followers just take his word for it. So it should be no surprise that the Book of Mormon is contrary to the scriptures. This is how we can know it was Satan posing as an angel that gave him the revelations. The bible itself warns of exactly this sort of thing:

2Cr 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Regarding adding to the scriptures, here is how they close:

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book. 20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. 21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you all. Amen.

[Peter]

As I mentioned earlier we cannot know God directly .........

But I do through my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

......... but we can understand our relationship with Him. From this relationship we derive certain attributes of God which define this relationship. One of Gods attributes is that He is The Just.  He is Just in His relationship with us which is why when Lucifer or Satan stated that he would mislead the sons of Adam God responded by saying he can only misguide the person who through choice decides to follow him; God denied him any power over people because that would not be just. 
I can go on and on but the point I am trying to make is that the whole concept of sin and atonement as you stated does not fit in with the attributes of a Just and ABLE God.

But as I showed you through the scriptures, blood atonement for sin is exactly an attribute of God because that ishow God revealed Himself to us. This isn't about a presumption, because Abraham sacrifices a ram to God after God saved Isaac. The temple was built and the temple mount stands today. God's people obeyed Him and were sacrificing animals in that temple 3,000 years ago. Your statement simply expresses disobedience to God by expressing a personal opinion that is inconsistent with the way that He revealed Himself. God isn't about what we may presume, or wish Him to be, but about the way He revealed Himself to us.

Generally speaking sin is not evil and neither is it a flaw in our creation.  Sin is a necessary part of our existence which is why God provided us with forgiveness.

Let me ask you a question regarding sin at this point. Do you suppose there some sins that are so bad that they cannot be forgiven?

[khalib]

Hi Peter,

To answer your question: We are taught that God forgives all sins as long as one repents with sincerity.  But we must never forget that God is the best of judges and no one besides He can say or decide whether or not a person will be forgiven. Even if our sins are as large as a mountain, he will forgive them as long as we ask for forgiveness with sincerity. As He said: If we turn to Him walking, He will come to us running.

You have mostly responded to my previous post by using quotes from the bible, in what I believe is an effort to support your point of view. The problem with that though is as much as I respect the Bible and value my relationship with many good people who are Christians, I don’t believe the Bible is anywhere close to been the Word of God, just as am sure you also don’t believe what I believe in is anywhere even close to the words of God, so how can you use what I don’t believe in to respond to my points? In fact how can even God expect us to believe in what does not make sense and is illogical on the basis of faith? That would be injustice for it is He who created us to think with our minds and not heart. The way to the heart is through the mind; which is why information or knowledge based on logic increases ones faith and information that is illogical, but still accepted through faith is fanaticism. Fanaticism means we are guided by our emotions and desires, instead of God conscience

Can you defend your faith based on reason and invite people to accept salvation through your faith through the same?

[Peter]

Let me ask you a question regarding sin at this point. Do you suppose there some sins that are so bad that they cannot be forgiven?

Hi Peter,

To answer your question: We are taught that God forgives all sins as long as one repents with sincerity.  But we must never forget that God is the best of judges and no one besides He can say or decide whether or not a person will be forgiven. Even if our sins are as large as a mountain, he will forgive them as long as we ask for forgiveness with sincerity. As He said: If we turn to Him walking, He will come to us running.

Then why do you suppose Muhammad said:

4.048 Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed.

What sin could be worse than for a person to confess that Jesus is the Son of God?

[Peter]

You have mostly responded to my previous post by using quotes from the bible, in what I believe is an effort to support your point of view. The problem with that though is as much as I respect the Bible and value my relationship with many good people who are Christians, I don’t believe the Bible is anywhere close to been the Word of God, just as am sure you also don’t believe what I believe in is anywhere even close to the words of God, so how can you use what I don’t believe in to respond to my points?

By Muhammad's 7th century the Gospel had been translated into every popular language in the known world, had been copied tens of thousands of times (some suggest a hundred thousand), and had been read all over the known world for centuries. Thus the Gospel of Muhammad's day, is necessarily the same Gospel we have today, or tens of thousands of copies in all those languages would have all had to have been erased, and then uniformly changed!
In that same 7th century Muhammad said:

Sura 5:47 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/

So are you suggesting that Muhammad was simply that ignorant to have given, what you apparently can only conclude was, such foolish advice? Perhaps that 21st century Muslims are just smarter than he was?

Yet the whole subject of the Gospel is the crucifixion, death and resurrection of the Messiah, the Lamb of God, who saves all from sin who have faith in His atoning blood.

[khalib]

In Islam Shirk or idolatry means taking anything for a conscience other than God. What one takes for a conscience is what they have faith or trust in above everything else, because that is what he/she will weigh every decision against to decide whether or not it is right-wrong, moral-immoral, ethical-unethical and so on. There is no religion in existence today or in the past that has ever denied the existence of the one and true God, therefore it doesn’t matter if we believe in the existence of the one and only true God, what we choose for a conscience decides whether or not we are engaged in idol worship or not. Take for instance a man who claims to believe in the existence of God, but carries a small symbol or idol around their neck or in their pocket that they pray to when in a dilemma, believing that that symbol will bring them closer to their lord. This is idol worship for this person has placed their trust in another other than God, and has sought guidance in another other than God. Why this is a grievous sin I can explain later if you wish but for the point I am trying to make now this should suffice.

Most of the companions of the prophet including those closest to him who accepted Islam were engaged in idol worship, so no Peter, the verse you quoted does not and cannot mean God does not forgive idol worship. Otherwise the prophet (peace be upon him) would have been telling his closest companions that they are destined to hell. What it means is if you are a Muslim and choose something for a conscience other than God be it an idol, religious leader, prophet than you have died in a state of disbelieve and not as a Muslim, therefore you are not worthy of forgiveness or Gods grace. Personal responsibility is paramount in Islam and we cant give that over to anything or anyone.

[khalib]

You have mostly responded to my previous post by using quotes from the bible, in what I believe is an effort to support your point of view. The problem with that though is as much as I respect the Bible and value my relationship with many good people who are Christians, I don’t believe the Bible is anywhere close to been the Word of God, just as am sure you also don’t believe what I believe in is anywhere even close to the words of God, so how can you use what I don’t believe in to respond to my points?

By Muhammad's 7th century the Gospel had been translated into every popular language in the known world, had been copied tens of thousands of times (some suggest a hundred thousand), and had been read all over the known world for centuries. Thus the Gospel of Muhammad's day, is necessarily the same Gospel we have today, or tens of thousands of copies in all those languages would have all had to have been erased, and then uniformly changed!
In that same 7th century Muhammad said:

Sura 5:47 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/

So are you suggesting that Muhammad was simply that ignorant to have given, what you apparently can only conclude was, such foolish advice? Perhaps that 21st century Muslims are just smarter than he was?

Yet the whole subject of the Gospel is the crucifixion, death and resurrection of the Messiah, the Lamb of God, who saves all from sin who have faith in His atoning blood.

Hi Peter,

Again you are misquoting what a verse in the Nobel Quran means. I don’t blame you though because the translation of the Quran is not the Quran but just that a translation, and we often see things that we want to see even in what is not possible for them to be in.

Our prophet (SAW) was sent for the mercy of humanity, but unfortunately when he came the Jews and Christians denied his prophet hood, just as the Jews denied the prophet hood of Jesus (peace be upon him). This verse is asking them to look in their Bible which foretells the coming of Muhammad (SAW). This is why it says if they still deny it after it has been foretold than they are rebelling against their own scripture. I am not going to quote which verses in the bible foretell the coming of Muhammed because a simple Google search will reveal thousands of sites to you showing you this.

Keep in mind also that the Bible you are probably quoting from is a translation and not the actual Bible.

[Peter]

Please let me finish your prior post before addressing your next two.

In fact how can even God expect us to believe in what does not make sense and is illogical on the basis of faith?

We don't have to rely solely on faith since the crucifixion of the Messiah was prophesied many hundreds of years in advance. Even hundreds of years before crucifixion was ever invented!

Psalms 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.   17 I may tell all my bones: they look [and] stare upon me.   18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

Matthew 27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/psalms_22.htm

That would be injustice for it is He who created us to think with our minds and not heart. The way to the heart is through the mind; which is why information or knowledge based on logic increases ones faith and information that is illogical, but still accepted through faith is fanaticism. Fanaticism means we are guided by our emotions and desires, instead of God conscience

Can you defend your faith based on reason and invite people to accept salvation through your faith through the same?

If course I can. As I mentioned previously I can support it through fulfillment of prophecy, history, archaeology or geography. A whole forum section devoted to it:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=68.0
I would recommend that you do a web search now, like - click the link history archaeology of Mecca - to see if you can do the same regarding Islam.

But surely you aren't suggesting that you found Muhammad's Allah through logic, when the whole reason you believe that you pray five times a day, is because of Muhammad's claim that he rode on a "buraq" one night, from Mecca to Jerusalem, up to "paradise", and back to Mecca by morning. However there was never ever a single witness in the history of the world that ever saw a flying donkey-mule, or any witnesses to Muhammad's account of having ridden on such a thing. His followers are stuck taking his world for it.

Let alone that Muhammad claimed he went into the temple of the prophets, and prayed two rak'ahs in it, however the temple had actually been torn down five hundred years prior to his claim. Indeed during the time in history that Muhammad made his claim to have prayed in it, the temple mount was being used as a garbage dump.
Where is the "thinking" or "logic" in believing in Muhammad's story about the buraq my friend?
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1253.0

[Peter]

In Islam Shirk or idolatry means taking anything for a conscience other than God. What one takes for a conscience is what they have faith or trust in above everything else, because that is what he/she will weigh every decision against to decide whether or not it is right-wrong, moral-immoral, ethical-unethical and so on. There is no religion in existence today or in the past that has ever denied the existence of the one and true God, therefore it doesn’t matter if we believe in the existence of the one and only true God, what we choose for a conscience decides whether or not we are engaged in idol worship or not. Take for instance a man who claims to believe in the existence of God, but carries a small symbol or idol around their neck or in their pocket that they pray to when in a dilemma, believing that that symbol will bring them closer to their lord. This is idol worship for this person has placed their trust in another other than God, and has sought guidance in another other than God. Why this is a grievous sin I can explain later if you wish but for the point I am trying to make now this should suffice.

Most of the companions of the prophet including those closest to him who accepted Islam were engaged in idol worship, so no Peter, the verse you quoted does not and cannot mean God does not forgive idol worship.

It has nothing to do with idol worship. It has to do with assigning partners to Allah. Read it again and I will help you try to provide a straight answer this time.

4.048 Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed.

That says that Allah "forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him" period.
The sin being discussed would be a sin more "heinous" than any other sin, since "He forgiveth anything else".

Here's how your brethren put it in website after website: "The sin of shirk is to associate partners with Allah, basically this means to set up idols and false deities alongside Allah, granting them equal status to Allah, and to give them actions which are only reserved for God alone, such as worshipping them, making oaths to them, having fear and hope in them, and to sacrifice things in their name. All of this constitutes shirk, an example is the case of Jesus, those who set him up as a God, and invoke on him and pray to him are guilty of shirk, they are guilty of setting up a partner to the true God Allah."

So when a Christian confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, or even prays in Jesus name, has he committed the ONLY unforgivable, and absolutely most heinous sin, according to Muhammad. Isn't that right?

Otherwise the prophet (peace be upon him) would have been telling his closest companions that they are destined to hell. What it means is if you are a Muslim and choose something for a conscience other than God be it an idol, religious leader, prophet than you have died in a state of disbelieve and not as a Muslim, therefore you are not worthy of forgiveness or Gods grace. Personal responsibility is paramount in Islam and we cant give that over to anything or anyone.

[khalib]

Please let me finish your prior post before addressing your next two.

In fact how can even God expect us to believe in what does not make sense and is illogical on the basis of faith?

We don't have to rely solely on faith since the crucifixion of the Messiah was prophesied many hundreds of years in advance. Even hundreds of years before crucifixion was ever invented!

Psalms 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.   17 I may tell all my bones: they look [and] stare upon me.   18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

Matthew 27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/psalms_22.htm

That would be injustice for it is He who created us to think with our minds and not heart. The way to the heart is through the mind; which is why information or knowledge based on logic increases ones faith and information that is illogical, but still accepted through faith is fanaticism. Fanaticism means we are guided by our emotions and desires, instead of God conscience

Can you defend your faith based on reason and invite people to accept salvation through your faith through the same?

If course I can. As I mentioned previously I can support it through fulfillment of prophecy, history, archaeology or geography. A whole forum section devoted to it:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=68.0
I would recommend that you do a web search now, like - click the link history archaeology of Mecca - to see if you can do the same regarding Islam.

But surely you aren't suggesting that you found Muhammad's Allah through logic, when the whole reason you believe that you pray five times a day, is because of Muhammad's claim that he rode on a "buraq" one night, from Mecca to Jerusalem, up to "paradise", and back to Mecca by morning. However there was never ever a single witness in the history of the world that ever saw a flying donkey-mule, or any witnesses to Muhammad's account of having ridden on such a thing. His followers are stuck taking his world for it.

Let alone that Muhammad claimed he went into the temple of the prophets, and prayed two rak'ahs in it, however the temple had actually been torn down five hundred years prior to his claim. Indeed during the time in history that Muhammad made his claim to have prayed in it, the temple mount was being used as a garbage dump.
Where is the "thinking" or "logic" in believing in Muhammad's story about the buraq my friend?
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1253.0

Hi Peter,

We are conscious animals who not only have conscience but are conscious as well. To begin with Peter that is not why we pray in Islam. Another name for Islam as you may be aware is The Reminder. Praying five times a day is simply to remind us of our responsibilities as Muslims to ourselves, family, neighborhood and wider society. This is why we pray in congregation, and why we have nearby mosques to our homes which could be several in a neighborhood for our daily prayers, one neighborhood mosque for our Friday prayers that unites all the people of the same neighborhood under one roof under a leader or imam, and a community mosque bringing together people from many neighborhoods for the Eid prayer.  Thus the prayer not only serves the purpose of reminding us of our responsibilities, but unites us under a common purpose. It is also a time we socialize with one another and ask God for forgiveness and guidance five times a day as doctors, lawyers, teachers, fathers, mothers, sisters….

But even in the Quran it does mention that prayer on its own is not righteousness, but rather providing for the widow, orphan… is righteousness.  As for the journey you described peter, it is indeed part of our faith that we are required to believe through logic. But before I go on I would like to explain to you what I mean by logic. To understand this let us go back to Gods attributes one of which we said is THE JUST.  If He is truly THE JUST it would  then be illogical if someone tells me that only the dead children of Muslims will go to heaven and all others will not, even though they had no say in who gives birth to them, or the mental capacity to distinguish between right and wrong at such a young age.  God been able to create an animal that has eight heads each that is also half donkey and human though is not illogical for He is THE CREATOR who created me, you and all other animals in away He saw fit, hence it does not go against logic. It may of course go against science, but in Islam science is not our conscience. Please remember peter I never said Jesus(peace be upon) rising from the dead was illogical, what I said was your concept of sin and atonement was not logical to me, and that’s when you switched topics on me and started to quote from the Bible and Quran.

[Peter]

You can pretend logic is whatever you wish it to be. But if you want to create your own definition for it, then you need to create your own word for your personal definition, since Muhammad's fanciful flight is the opposite of what logic is. In other words, your use of the word logic, is illogical!

I'll wait for you to reply to to the post on shirk before moving forward. I enlarged and bolded the question so you couldn't miss it.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3485.msg14525#msg14525

I'm looking forward to eventually going back through much of this thread point by point.

[khalib]

In Islam Shirk or idolatry means taking anything for a conscience other than God. What one takes for a conscience is what they have faith or trust in above everything else, because that is what he/she will weigh every decision against to decide whether or not it is right-wrong, moral-immoral, ethical-unethical and so on. There is no religion in existence today or in the past that has ever denied the existence of the one and true God, therefore it doesn’t matter if we believe in the existence of the one and only true God, what we choose for a conscience decides whether or not we are engaged in idol worship or not. Take for instance a man who claims to believe in the existence of God, but carries a small symbol or idol around their neck or in their pocket that they pray to when in a dilemma, believing that that symbol will bring them closer to their lord. This is idol worship for this person has placed their trust in another other than God, and has sought guidance in another other than God. Why this is a grievous sin I can explain later if you wish but for the point I am trying to make now this should suffice.

Hi Peter,

Assigning partners to God is what we call idol worship in Islam. You can’t give your own meaning to verses and base your arguments on that my friend, its illogical. In other words you can’t set your own rules and then be judge and executioner!

For your information we are not even allowed to pray to Muhammad (SAW), or refer to him as anything other than a normal human being, with human emotions and desires who was sent with a message, and thus strengthened with the Holy Spirit. We are not allowed spiritual leaders; every man is responsible and accountable for his actions to a God who is forgiving and merciful. It is through His Grace we believe we will make it to heaven as long as we combine faith with effort to do good.

Again for your information even when and after the verse in question was revealed many who were involve with Shirk came to the prophet and accepted Islam. What you’re suggesting in fact is so illogical that its bordering on the ridiculous, because if what you are suggesting is true than no one would have been Muslims.

Assigning partners to God which means taking something far a conscience other than God is shirk. You also want me to tell you whether or not Christians are involved in Shirk. In my religion Peter only God can judge, for each person is only accountable for himself and how well he behaves with others, hence what you do is between you and your God, only you can answer that question. As a Muslim I am only asked to remind you what God expects of all of us. But if you’re interested in what God says about the Jews and Christians I have selected some verses for you:




They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One Allah. There is no Allah save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!

"Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians -- whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor shall they grieve" (2:62, 5:69, and many other verses).
"...and nearest among them in love to the believers will you find those who say, 'We are Christians,' because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant" (5:82).
"O you who believe! Be helpers of God -- as Jesus the son of Mary said to the Disciples, 'Who will be my helpers in (the work of) God?' Said the disciples, 'We are God's helpers!' Then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved. But We gave power to those who believed, against their enemies, and they became the ones that prevailed" (61:14).
"If only they [i.e. Christians] had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course, but many of them follow a course that is evil" (5:66).
"Oh People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion, nor say of God anything but the truth. Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, was (no more than) a messenger of God, and His Word which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him. So believe in God and His messengers. Say not, 'Trinity.' Desist! It will be better for you, for God is One God, Glory be to Him! (Far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs" (4:171).



















































































































Most of the companions of the prophet including those closest to him who accepted Islam were engaged in idol worship, so no Peter, the verse you quoted does not and cannot mean God does not forgive idol worship.

It has nothing to do with idol worship. It has to do with assigning partners to Allah. Read it again and I will help you try to provide a straight answer this time.

4.048 Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed.

That says that Allah "forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him" period.
The sin being discussed would be a sin more "heinous" than any other sin, since "He forgiveth anything else".

Here's how your brethren put it in website after website: "The sin of shirk is to associate partners with Allah, basically this means to set up idols and false deities alongside Allah, granting them equal status to Allah, and to give them actions which are only reserved for God alone, such as worshipping them, making oaths to them, having fear and hope in them, and to sacrifice things in their name. All of this constitutes shirk, an example is the case of Jesus, those who set him up as a God, and invoke on him and pray to him are guilty of shirk, they are guilty of setting up a partner to the true God Allah."

So when a Christian confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, or even prays in Jesus name, has he committed the ONLY unforgivable, and absolutely most heinous sin, according to Muhammad. Isn't that right?

Otherwise the prophet (peace be upon him) would have been telling his closest companions that they are destined to hell. What it means is if you are a Muslim and choose something for a conscience other than God be it an idol, religious leader, prophet than you have died in a state of disbelieve and not as a Muslim, therefore you are not worthy of forgiveness or Gods grace. Personal responsibility is paramount in Islam and we cant give that over to anything or anyone.

[khalib]

Hi Peter,

Assigning partners to God is what we call idol worship in Islam. You can’t give your own meaning to verses and base your arguments on that my friend, its illogical. In other words you can’t set your own rules and then be judge and executioner!

For your information we are not even allowed to pray to Muhammad (SAW), or refer to him as anything other than a normal human being, with human emotions and desires who was sent with a message, and thus strengthened with the Holy Spirit. We are not allowed spiritual leaders; every man is responsible and accountable for his actions to a God who is forgiving and merciful. It is through His Grace we believe we will make it to heaven as long as we combine faith with effort to do good.

Again for your information even when and after the verse in question was revealed many who were involve with Shirk came to the prophet and accepted Islam. What you’re suggesting in fact is so illogical that its bordering on the ridiculous, because if what you are suggesting is true than no one would have been Muslims.

Assigning partners to God which means taking something far a conscience other than God is shirk. You also want me to tell you whether or not Christians are involved in Shirk. In my religion Peter only God can judge, for each person is only accountable for himself and how well he behaves with others, hence what you do is between you and your God, only you can answer that question. As a Muslim I am only asked to remind you what God expects of all of us. But if you’re interested in what God says about the Jews and Christians I have selected some verses for you:




They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One Allah. There is no Allah save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!

"Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians -- whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor shall they grieve" (2:62, 5:69, and many other verses).

"...and nearest among them in love to the believers will you find those who say, 'We are Christians,' because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant" (5:82).

"O you who believe! Be helpers of God -- as Jesus the son of Mary said to the Disciples, 'Who will be my helpers in (the work of) God?' Said the disciples, 'We are God's helpers!' Then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved. But We gave power to those who believed, against their enemies, and they became the ones that prevailed" (61:14).

"If only they [i.e. Christians] had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course, but many of them follow a course that is evil" (5:66).

"Oh People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion, nor say of God anything but the truth. Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, was (no more than) a messenger of God, and His Word which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him. So believe in God and His messengers. Say not, 'Trinity.' Desist! It will be better for you, for God is One God, Glory be to Him! (Far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs" (4:171).

[Peter]

Assigning partners to God which means taking something far a conscience other than God is shirk. You also want me to tell you whether or not Christians are involved in Shirk. In my religion Peter only God can judge, for each person is only accountable for himself and how well he behaves with others, hence what you do is between you and your God, only you can answer that question.

You are confusing judgment of persons, with being able to judge what sin is. I'm not asking about judging persons, but judging sin.
The fact is, that the quotes that you cite, and all of the commentaries of the followers of Muhammad indicate, unequivocally, that according to Muhammad alone, when a Christian confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, it constitutes the only unforgivable sin, and a sin worse than, for example, the mass murder of those school children of a few weeks back. Each and every Christian throughout the last 2,000 years is guilty of Muhammad's only unforgivable sin. A sin worse than mass murder or child rape.

1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

You earlier suggested that Muhammad's "Allah" is a just God. Does that strike you as being the work of a just God? That for a person to pray in Jesus name would constitute a sin worse than mass murder or child rape?

Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Or the exact opposite perhaps something more along the line of the idea of a, 7th century, SW Arabian desert dweller, inspired by a jealous opposite of YHWH?

The one true God of the scriptures YHWH, revealed Himself to mankind over a period of 1600 years, through the record of revelation of all of His prophets and witnesses, that His people have followed through two covenants, for 3500 years.
Yet Muhammad proclaimed the exact opposite of the whole subject of the Gospel. Thereby deceiving his followers into rejecting the blood of the Lamb of God that would save them. Jesus is revealed as God's Son.

1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

No Christian for 2,000 years has denied that Jesus is the Son of God, or they simply wouldn't be Christian. For a Christian to deny that Jesus is the Son of God, and God His Father, would be impossible in the light of the hundreds of verses that proclaim it.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=611.0
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=610.0

Yet you reject the 1600 year record of revelation of the one true God YHWH to mankind, to follow the exact opposite, through the stand-alone, 7th century record, of a lone SW Arabian desert dweller. And why? Because of any evidence? No but purely because Muhammad told his followers to follow him.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2656.0
That's why for you:

.....nothing can be more subjective than right and wrong.

Which is the exact opposite for those of us that are filled with the Spirit of the sinless Lamb of God.

[Peter]

You have mostly responded to my previous post by using quotes from the bible, in what I believe is an effort to support your point of view. The problem with that though is as much as I respect the Bible and value my relationship with many good people who are Christians, I don’t believe the Bible is anywhere close to been the Word of God, just as am sure you also don’t believe what I believe in is anywhere even close to the words of God, so how can you use what I don’t believe in to respond to my points?

By Muhammad's 7th century the Gospel had been translated into every popular language in the known world, had been copied tens of thousands of times (some suggest a hundred thousand), and had been read all over the known world for centuries. Thus the Gospel of Muhammad's day, is necessarily the same Gospel we have today, or tens of thousands of copies in all those languages would have all had to have been erased, and then uniformly changed!
In that same 7th century Muhammad said:

Sura 5:47 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/

So are you suggesting that Muhammad was simply that ignorant to have given, what you apparently can only conclude was, such foolish advice? Perhaps that 21st century Muslims are just smarter than he was?

Yet the whole subject of the Gospel is the crucifixion, death and resurrection of the Messiah, the Lamb of God, who saves all from sin who have faith in His atoning blood.

Hi Peter,

Again you are misquoting what a verse in the Nobel Quran means. I don’t blame you though because the translation of the Quran is not the Quran but just that a translation, and we often see things that we want to see even in what is not possible for them to be in.

Our prophet (SAW) was sent for the mercy of humanity, but unfortunately when he came the Jews and Christians denied his prophet hood, just as the Jews denied the prophet hood of Jesus (peace be upon him). This verse is asking them to look in their Bible which foretells the coming of Muhammad (SAW).

But unfortunately that's false, and the whole reason the Jews of Medina knew he was a false prophet, and didn't accept his false claims. They chose beheading rather than follow Muhammad, because they knew who to fear, and it wasn't Muhammad:

Ishaq:461 "After the siege exhausted and terrorized them, the Jews felt certain that the Apostle would not leave them until he had exterminated them. So they decided to talk to Ka'b Asad. He said, 'People of the Jews, you see what has befallen you. I shall propose three alternatives. Take whichever one you please.' He said, 'Swear allegiance to this man and accept him; for, by Allah, it has become clear to you that he is a prophet sent from Allah. It is he that you used to find mentioned in your scripture book. Then you will be secure in your lives, your property, your children, and your wives.'"

Ishaq:462/Tabari VIII:30 "The Jews said, 'We will never abandon the Torah or exchange it for the Qur'an.' Asad said, 'Since you reject this proposal of mine, then kill your children and your wives and go out to Muhammad and his Companions as men who brandish swords, leaving behind no impediments to worry you. If you die, you shall have left nothing behind; if you win you shall find other women and children.' The Jews replied, 'Why would we kill these poor ones? What would be the good of living after them?'"

This is why it says if they still deny it after it has been foretold than they are rebelling against their own scripture.

Nor is Muhammad prophesied in the Gospel, except in verses like these:

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

And more specific to Muhammad:

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

I am not going to quote which verses in the bible foretell the coming of Muhammed because a simple Google search will reveal thousands of sites to you showing you this.

But all those thousands of sites are all the product of folks that have been brainwashed by Islamic so-called tradition, that was all created and put to the pen in the 7th - 10th centuries AD. Or they are victims of Greek sophist styled entertainers like the antichrist liar Ahmed Deedat.
You can find many more thousands of sites that will disabuse you of any absurd notion that that Muhammad was prophesied in scripture as a prophet. On a case by case basis of each of those phony claims. Indeed if Muhammad was a true prophet then all of the prophets and witnesses in the 1600 year record of revelation of YHWH to mankind are false. And the prophet Jesus chief among them.
I can help disabuse you of any notion of Muhammad being prophesied in scripture as well, except as a false prophet. THE false prophet. He can only be a false prophet because he proclaimed the exact opposite of the whole subject of the Gospel.
Please indulge us with one of your favorite examples and I'll demonstrate.

Keep in mind also that the Bible you are probably quoting from is a translation and not the actual Bible.

All translations of the Gospel reveal that Jesus was crucified, died and was resurrected, to save all mankind from dying to our sins, who have faith in His shed blood. All translations of the Gospel include hundreds of verses that proclaim Jesus is the Son of God and God His Father.

Sorry my friend, Muhammad proclaimed that Christians should "judge by what Allah hath revealed" in the Gospel, and the whole subject is the crucifixion, death and resurrection of the Messiah.

[khalib]

Hi Peter,

Now you are not only blatantly giving meanings to verses you obviously have no clue what they mean but also choosing what you want to see in my posts. I have already defined and explained to you what constitutes shirk, is that not judging what sin is, or would you rather I judge all Christians by declaring them idol worshippers?

Please go back and read my posts free of emotions. Emotions tend to blind us from objectively taking in information.

Please my friend understand that just because we allow ourselves to open our minds and view ideas through the eyes of other peoples does not mean we agree with them, but simply opens the way for understanding and mutual respect.

[Peter]

Hi Peter,

Now you are not only blatantly giving meanings to verses you obviously have no clue what they mean but also choosing what you want to see in my posts. I have already defined and explained to you what constitutes shirk, is that not judging what sin is, or would you rather I judge all Christians by declaring them idol worshippers?

Please go back and read my posts free of emotions. Emotions tend to blind us from objectively taking in information.

I realize what's going on in your heart, which is why I asked the question. How indeed could a just God suggest that confessing that Jesus is the Son of God, would constitute a sin worse than child rape or cold blooded mass murder?

4.048 Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed.

The following is from your brethren from many sites. I'm sorry but you don't happen to be the sole arbiter of Islam, let alone I tire a bit of your creating your own language, like attempting to redefine logic, when I pointed out how illogical it is for you to believe Muhammad's tall tales. I showed you, and you showed me, the germane verses from Muhammad. No need to add a cloud of words in efforts to obfuscate.

"The sin of shirk is to associate partners with Allah, basically this means to set up idols and false deities alongside Allah, granting them equal status to Allah, and to give them actions which are only reserved for God alone, such as worshipping them, making oaths to them, having fear and hope in them, and to sacrifice things in their name. All of this constitutes shirk, an example is the case of Jesus, those who set him up as a God, and invoke on him and pray to him are guilty of shirk, they are guilty of setting up a partner to the true God Allah."

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Jhn 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do [it].

Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

And all that is done to this very day, in Jesus' name. And you seem to have missed a verse from the last post:

1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

According to Muhammad then, all Christians throughout the last nearly 2,000 years, are guilty of the only unforgivable sin of shirk. A sin even less forgivable, than child rape or mass murder, which can be forgiven.
Would you describe that as the law of a just God?

Do you confess that Jesus is the Son of God? You can't, can you. So can't we see from the scriptures that He cannot dwell in you, nor you in He? You don't believe in the Son of God or His shed blood, solely because you believe in, and follow, Muhammad alone.
In fact Muhammad curses me and commands you to fight against the "people of the book":

Surah 9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. 30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

Did it ever strike you as peculiar, that Muhammad filled his followers with complete resolve, as to what to DENY, DISbelieve and REJECT? To deny the Son of God, to disbelieve His crucifixion, and reject the atoning shed blood of the Lamb of God.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=628.0

Bukhari, V1 B2 #24 Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives an property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

You see, for a Christian to testify to that would be committing pure blasphemy, because Muhammad proclaimed the exact opposite of the whole subject of the Gospel.

Please my friend understand that just because we allow ourselves to open our minds and view ideas through the eyes of other peoples does not mean we agree with them, but simply opens the way for understanding and mutual respect.

This isn't about our eyes, but about truth, as revealed through our scriptures. Our mutual respect for each other doesn't alter the records that we follow.

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

I follow all of the prophets and witnesses as revealed in the 1600 year record of YHWH to mankind, that His people have followed through two covenants, for 3500 years.
You follow the heavily abrogated, 23 year, 7th century record, of Muhammad alone, who proclaimed the exact opposite of the whole subject of the scriptures.

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

Surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

[khalib]

Hi Peter,

Fanaticism as I mentioned to you earlier is when we allow our heart or emotions to think for us rather than our mind.   Try as you may though you cannot get me to disparage my fellow Christian brethren, because my friend you too don’t represent Christianity. In fact we are taught that no one can represent Gods religion except God. This is why we have no excommunication, or confessions of sin. Everyone’s relationship with God is deeply personal and only He can judge.

Now let’s go back to the question at hand which you have not answered by the way, but rather avoided through biblical quotations: Do you worship the one and only true God (God conscience)? Simple answer with a definition of worship will do please.

[Peter]

Hi Peter,

Fanaticism as I mentioned to you earlier is when we allow our heart or emotions to think for us rather than our mind.

That's why I relied on the records from our respective religions to speak for me.

Try as you may though you cannot get me to disparage my fellow Christian brethren, ........

We may be brothers in humanity, as in brothers under Adam.
However we are not brothers in Christ Jesus, because you reject the whole subject of the Gospel and the whole purpose of the Messiah as revealed through all of His prophets and witnesses, to follow Muhammad alone.

Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, [even] Christ; and all ye are brethren.

Eph 6:23 Peace [be] to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

But you could become my brother, as so many of your former brethren have, that have come into relationship with Christ Jesus. Why don't you take a moment to view some of their testimonies at this link?
http://www.youtube.com/user/Muslims4Jesus

1Jo 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship [is] with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

........ because my friend you too don’t represent Christianity.

That's why I have relied on the 1600 year record of revelation of YHWH as revealed through all of His prophets and witnesses to do it for me.

1Cr 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; ("Greeks" indicating unsaved Gentiles)

Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm

In fact we are taught that no one can represent Gods religion except God.

And He represented Himself through all of His prophets and witnesses, as revealed through His 1600 year record to mankind, that His people have followed through two covenants for 3500 years.

This is why we have no excommunication, or confessions of sin. Everyone’s relationship with God is deeply personal and only He can judge.

Now let’s go back to the question at hand which you have not answered by the way, but rather avoided through biblical quotations: Do you worship the one and only true God (God conscience)? Simple answer with a definition of worship will do please.

Yes of course, while setting aside your (God conscience) manufactured term (that you seemed to want to use to explain how you could claim as logical the belief that Muhammad rode to Jerusalem on a flying animal and prayed in a temple that had been torn down 500 years earlier).

I believe in one God because my scriptures proclaim it:

Mar 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment. 31 And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. 32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

And I worship Him in the name of my Lord and Savior - through which God manifest or revealed Himself - Jesus Christ.

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

I pray to Him and thank Him for saving me. I am in constant relationship with my omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent God. So I can pray to Him any time any where. Very much the opposite of prostrating toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca to do so.

Now please answer a question for me. Do you believe God has a Spirit, as do Jews and Christians?

Exodus 31:3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,

Sura 15.29: "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him."

[khalib]

Hi Peter,

Thanks for the invitation to join your religion, obviously you are very passionate about it (whether you understand it or not is besides the point) so I take that as a sign that you care . I would of course have to refuse for my heart is filled with the love of the one and only God, who cares and loves me so much that He personally has assured me of direct access to Him, when ever and wherever I choose. I come to Him walking He says and He will come running, I ask and He promises to answer, I repent and He promises forgiveness. All this and all He asks in return is I live my life here in the healthiest way possible and fulfill my duty towards my family, neighbors, community and ensure that my behavior including what I say and do is a source of benefit to them and not Harm.  He admonished me against taking for a conscience other than He, be it science, my culture, emotions, desire... for that would amount to ascribing partners unto Hm or shirk. How can I not heed such a warning from one who has shown me so much love and care? How can I steep so low as to worship that which is of human creation or a figment of imagination and not honor the invitation of The Mighty, The Just, The Beneficent, The Merciful?

Now I invite you Peter to the religion of Al-Islam or The Surrender. Surrender yourself, your worries, your past, your future... to Him. You do not need an intercessor or an intermediary-YOU HAVE DIRECT ACCESS!

Thanks for the debate my friend.