Inspiration of the Quran - Jabr, Tubb'a, Waraqa and Others

[Peter]

Authors of the Quran
http://inthenameofallah.org/Authors%20of%20the%20Quran.html

Inspiration or plagiarism? http://www.youtube.com/user/allahaleg

To answer to the doubters of his inspiration, because of the conspicuous absence of witnesses or other proof of inspiration, Mohammed provided yet another sura for damage control:

Sura 9.127 Whenever there cometh down a Sura, they look at each other, (saying), "Doth anyone see you?" Then they turn aside: Allah hath turned their hearts (from the light); for they are a people that understand not.

Inspiration of the Quran

Amazingly, even some of today's Muslims look upon Mohammed's illiteracy as some sort of miracle. To non-Muslims illiteracy is usually a reflection of someone's mental incapacity or lack of education. Certainly a far cry from the very literate prophets and apostles that wrote the Gospel over 6 centuries earlier.
How those men died:
http://www.homecomers.org/mirror/martyrs010.htm#67
In stark contrast to those men:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MG1MiLqH0jc
The Word of God
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/gospel_of_john.htm

But the fact that Mohammed was illiterate certainly didn't mean he was blind and deaf. He traveled a lot in his first wife's business and also with his uncle as a child, so there was no lack of exposure. Later on he was surrounded by many that knew about Judaism and Christianity including wives and concubines.

[edit added later]Also including Khadijah's cousin Waraqa ibn Naufal:

Narrated 'Aisha(R): Volume 4, Book 55, Number 605:  "..The Prophet returned to Khadija while his heart was beating rapidly. She took him to Waraqa bin Naufal who was a Christian convert and used to read the Gospel in Arabic....."

Narrated 'Aisha(R): Volume 1, Book 1, Number 3  Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the pre-Islamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write.[end edit addition]

"From a number of Islamic books we gather that Mohammed was surrounded by many Christians - even if nominal. One of them was Waraqa ibn Naufal, the cousin of Khadija, Mohammed's wife. One of his wives, Umm Habbibah, was formerly the wife of a Christian, Ubaidu'llah ibn Jahsh. Another wife of Mohammed, Miriam, and her sister, Sirin, were Christian slaves given to Muhammad. Biographer Ibn Ishaq records that Abdu'llah ibn Salam (one of the best reciters of the Qur'an) was a seasoned Jewish Rabbi before he became a Muslim and personal friend of Muhammad." (Anatomy of the Quran by G.J.O. Moshay)

But perhaps the most valuable source of Mohammed's rehashed Jewish and Arabic fables and pseudo-Christian suras was a friend of his named Jabr. An ex"Christian" that converted to Islam. Indeed so often did Mohammed have a "revelation" after meeting with his friend Jabr that the local nickname in jest for Jabr became "holy spirit". It would seem that so embarrassed was Mohammed, by the ribbing he was taking, that damage control required yet another sura.

"The Jabr Connection

Again quoting Moshay:

Sura 16.103 We know indeed that they say, "It is a man that teaches him." The tongue of him they wickedly point to is notably foreign, while this is Arabic, pure and clear.

The "man that teaches him" is a young "Christian" friend of Muhammad called Jabr, whom Muhammad always visited at Marwah Quraters, not too far from his house. The allegation was that when Muhammad visited Jabr and heard the stories of the Bible, some were put on record. People believed that Muhammad usually presented these parchments and claimed he had received them hot from heaven through the angel Gabriel.

Muhammad refuted this strong allegation through another "revelation" from "Gabriel." The defense was that since Jabr was of "a foreign tongue" (he was not an Arab by birth), he could not have taught Muhammad anything. But it does not matter if Jabr was a non-Arab. Since he had stayed long in Arabia, he could have known Arabic very well and related his stories to Muhammad in good Arabic. How could Jabr be a close friend of Muhammad (if he did not understand Arabic) since Muhammad did not understand any other language? We must realize too that Muhammad's main Secretary was a Jew. According to Muslim writer Muhammad Haykall, Muhammad...

'...had chosen him (the Secretary) for his capacity to write letters in Hebrew and Syriac as well as Arabic. After the evacuation of Jews from Madinah, the Prophet no longer trusted a non-muslim to write his letters.'

That means, too, that the Jewish background of Jabr could not be a plausible reason why he couldn't have helped Muhammad in his collection of what is now called the Qur'an. If Muhammad's own Secretary was of "a foreign tougue" and yet well versed in Arabic, Syriac and his own Hebrew language, then it is not inconceivable to get Hebrew scriptures and literature interpreted and translated into Arabic by the Secretary. Since the Secretary was such a brilliant fellow and was versatile in these three languages, therefore, the alleged brilliance of the language of the Qur'an is not a necessary and sufficient proof of heavenly authorship. Rather, it can be a reflection of the brilliance of Jabr, since Muhammad is believed to have been illiterate." (Anatomy of the Quran by G.J.O. Moshay)

Regarding Mohammed's claim of "pure Arabic" there are over 100 non-Arabic words in Persian, Syriac, Hebrew, old Egyptian, Assyrian and Greek. So even Mohammed's claimed "proof" in the above sura is untrue. Even the word for "Gospel", Injil, is a Syriac word.
__________________

From a website:
"Ibn Ishaq also provides some detail. (in page180)

"According to my information the apostle used often to sit at al-Marwa at the booth of a young Christian called Jabr (2), a slave of B. al-Hadrami and they used to say "The one who teaches Muhammad most of what he brings is Jabr the Christian, slave of the B. al-Hadrami." Then God revealed in reference to their words "We well know that they say, "Only a mortal teaches him"."

Quran 25:5
And they say: "Tales of the ancients, which he has caused to be written: and they are dictated before him morning and evening." "

Search Sura 16 103 "jabr"

"On Plagiarism

The influences noted above are not just in hearing stories and having them jotted down as revelations. There are hints of outright plagiarism identified by scholars. But, interestingly, we have a serious challenge concerning the sacredness and originality of the Qur'an:

'And if you are in doubt as to which We (Allah) have revealed to Our servant (Muhammad), then produce a chapter like it, and call on your helper, besides Allah, if you are truthful.'

Most Arabs were illiterate at that time. Moreover, many of the original works from which Arabs could have discovered the sources of the Qur'an material were in foreign languages. Informed scholars now laugh at such a challenge since clear evidence now exists to establish outright plagiarism in the Qura'an. We will now cite a few of these.

It has been established that verses 1, 29, 31 and 46 of Sura 54 (Surat al-Qamar) were lifted from a poem of a pre-Islamic Arabic poet, Imraul Qais. Even at the time of Muhammad, some sneered at the challenge to 'produce a chapter like it.' For example the poe Imraul Qais' daughter was still alive when Muhammad started his religion. One day this lady was listening to Muhammad reciting the 'revelations' he had just received hot from heaven from his Angel Jubril. She recognized the verses from her father's poems, and stoood aghast and amused, wondering how these could be a revelation written by Alland and preserved in the 'Preserved Tablet' in heaven from before the creation of the world!

Another time, this lady met Fatima, Muhammad's daughter, reciting the first verse of Surat Qamar. Qais' daughter said:

'Oh that is what your father has taken from my father's poems ('Mollaqat') and calls it something that has come down fto him from heaven!'

If the original works of a secular Arab poet could be seen in the Qur'an, then it is scarcely of any use to maintain the claim that the Qur'an is so wonderful that the most learned Arab or even a spirit could not produce it's kind." (Anatomy of the Quran by G.J.O. Moshay)

Sura 19:28 "O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!" 29 But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?" 30 He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;

Jesus speaking as an infant was lifted from an Egyptian apocryphal fable titled "First Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ":
"...Jesus spake even when he was in the cradle, and said: 'Mary, I am Jesus the son of God. That word which thou didst bring forth according to the declaration of the angel..."

Portions of the preceding from "Anatomy of the Quran" by G.J.O. Moshay. 
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=410.0

Any Muslim that dares to read Moshay's book, will leave Islam.

Mohammed discouraged questions:

Surah 5:101 O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble.

So Muslims are instructed to avoid asking questions. Illustrating Islam's 1400 year fear of truth. The same reason that Mohammed had poets killed and prevented Muslims from making friends of non-Muslims. The same reason bibles are banned in Islamic countries.
The one true God is very much different than that:

1Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

The reason Mohammed discouraged questions is made clear in the very next verse:

102 Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith.

But those that loose their faith in Mohammed can gain faith in the one true God - the God of love - that His people have followed for 3500 years, through two covenants, detailed in His 1600 year record:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/gospel_of_john.htm

Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

"Allah has hated for you three things: ... 3. And asking too many questions (in disputed religious matters)." (Dr. Khan, Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol. 2, #555)

That's why apostates are killed. So they can't bring truth to others. Punishment for leaving, like all other dangerous cults.

Surah 4:89 They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-

There was no shortage of doubters regarding Mohammed's "revelations" being divinely inspired. Besides the Christians and Jews, other Arabs had trouble, likely in part because even Mohammed admitted to reversing himself so often.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=116.0

A whopping 71 out of only 114 suras are subject to abrogation:

Quran 2:106 None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?

Mohammed even knew how all his change-ups would be perceived:

Surah 16:101 When We substitute one revelation for another, and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages), they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.

That he couldn't keep his story straight indicates not divine inspiration but the changing whims of the self-serving author of the Quran. Like the special sura that allowed Mohammed to take his step-son's wife, or the one that allowed him all the wives he wanted, but only for him. http://www.beholdthebeast.com/#prophet

According to Aisha, while they were making preparations to bury Mohammed, goats ate part of the Quran.
Does anyone really think that is the way God would preserve His Word?

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7GPNAUWacI

[Peter]

Muslims rely solely on Mohammed's singular account - that is take his word for - what he claimed, Allah revealed to him.
Then they turn around, and without hesitation, say it is Allah's own words.
Including even the self-serving suras like the one where Allah accommodated Mohammed's taking of his stepson's wife, and the one that allowed only Mohammed all the wives he wanted. http://www.beholdthebeast.com/#prophet The ones that allow sexually enslaving the daughters and wives of the vanquished. http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=456.0
Yet NONE of his "revelations" were witnessed by others and not a single prophecy has been fulfilled.

Stunningly, on that basis, Muslims are willing to reject the 1600 year record of God's Word, that His people have followed faithfully for 3500 years, revealed through many dozens of prophets and witnesses, that had stunning fulfillment of their prophecies, for a 7th century come lately that contradicted those prophets and taught the exact opposite of Jesus Christ. http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=148.0 Prophets of the Old Testament that Jews and Christians consider the inerrant Word of God, and the New Testament that Christians consider the inerrant Word of God, replaced by a 23 year record, recited by a single 7th century illiterate, that was left in such a mess that a whopping 71 out of only 114 suras are subject to abrogation.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=116.0

[Peter]

Additionally, not only did the story of Jesus talking as an infant come from an Arabic fable that preceded Muhammad, but perhaps even more comically to this section was Muhammad's suggestion that Mary's sister was Aaron - who lived over a thousand years earlier:

Sura 19:28 "O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!" 29 But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?" 30 He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;

From our friends at Answering Islam: http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/mary.htm

"This verse [9:28] states that after Mary gave birth to Christ, her townsfolk reproached her.  They thought she was not married, and assumed that she committed sexual sin because she gave birth.  In their reproach, they called her, "Sister of Aaron".

            This mistake was discerned by the Arabic Christians of Najran.  There is a record of them exposing Muhammad's mistake about Mary.  It's found in authentic Islamic writings, known as the Hadith, or Traditions.  The quote is from the collection of Traditions compiled by an Islamic scholar known as "Imam Muslim".  Imam Muslim's collection of Hadith, known as "Sahih Muslim", is considered to be the 3rd most important set of books in Islam, following the Quran, and Hadith collection of Bukhari.  "Sahih" means, more or less, "authentic", i.e., they are regarded as authentic by Islamic scholarship.

            In Sahih Muslim, the Hadith related by Mughirah ibn Shu'bah, #5326, says:

            "When I came to Najran, they (the Christians of Najran) asked me:  You read "Sister of Harun", (i.e. Mary), in the Qur'an, whereas Moses was born well before Jesus. When I came back to Allah's Messenger I asked him about that, and he said:  "The (people of the old age) used to give names (to their persons) after the names of Apostle and pious persons who had gone before them.""  [Sahih Muslim, translated by Abdul Siddiqi].

END OF QUOTE FROM SAHIH MUSLIM

            In effect, when Muhammad was confronted with the mistake of confusing Mary as the sister of Aaron he said that Mary was called the "sister of Aaron" because Aaron was a pious person and Mary was called after Aaron.  Muhammad meant that the use of the idiom "sister of Aaron" was not literal, but metaphorical."

More: http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/mary.htm

[Peter]

"Lair of the Dragon" - Ellis Skolfield - PDF
http://www.ellisskolfield.net/essays

[Peter]

Regarding Mohammed's illiteracy

sura 7.158 Say: "O men! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of Allah, to Whom belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth: there is no god but He: it is He That giveth both life and death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the Unlettered Prophet, who believeth in Allah and His words: follow him that (so) ye may be guided."

PICKTHAL: Say (O Muhammad): O mankind! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah to you all - (the messenger of) Him unto Whom belongeth the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth. There is no Allah save Him. He quickeneth and He giveth death. So believe in Allah and His messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, who believeth in Allah and in His Words, and follow him that haply ye may be led aright.

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/007.qmt.html#007.158

But just because he didn't have the mental capacity to learn how to read, doesn't mean he was deaf, as evidenced in the OP.

[Peter]

"Abu Karb Asa'd, also called Tubb'a, occupied the cities of central western Arabia at the beginning of the 5th century A.D. Among those cities were Mecca and Yatrib, also called al-Medina."

"The inhabitants of Mecca had emigrated from two Yemeni tribes, Oas and Khazraj. They too, emigrated to Yathrib after the dam in Yemen was damaged around 150 A.D. These tribes were living with two Jewish tribes, Beni Kharithah and Beni Nathir, which were already established. Abu Karb Asa'd was of Yemeni origin. He built the kaabeh at Mecca to reinforce his rule over the city, and to show favor to the citizens of mecca who were without a temple of worship. They, like him, shared the same pagan beliefs.'

"Tubb'a also tried to build bridges with the Jewish community in Yathrib. He learned their religious thoughts and rites. He learned the Jewish myths, such as the legend of the hoopoe bird that announced the kingdom of Saba to Solomon. This myth came from the Jewish mythological book called the Second Targum of Esther. Mohammed incorporated the same myth into the Qur'an."

[Peter]

We see, also, that Attar, in some Thamudic inscriptions, is given the title of 'Rami,' which, in the Arabic language of mecca and the Qur'an, means 'Akbar,' translated 'the biggest.' This is the same title given to Allah in the Qur'an. The intention of the worshippers of Venus was to say that the Venus deity star was the biggest of all stars. Both Allah in the Qur'an, and Athtar in the Thamudic inscruptions are called 'Rahim,' which means merciful.32 in the inscriptions from the area of Teima, there is a mention of a star called 'lame'h,' which means 'bright." This is most likely a reference to Venus, which is given in the inscriptions of the title of 'Rahim,'33

The Qur'an has copied many attributes of Arabian gods and given them to Allah. For example, the Thamud gods are described with the inscription;

he was not conceived nor generated nor born. 34

This expression often was used in the Jahiliyah period; in fact, Kes Bin Saideh mentioned it in his sayings.35 Mohammed used to listen to Kes Bin Saideh when he was young. The same idea was copied in the Qur'an and used about Allah, such as Surah al-khlas 112;3, 'he begetteth not, nor is he begotten." This became a verse in the Qur'an.

Much more in the book "Islam: In Light of History" by Dr. Rafat Amari
http://religionresearchinstitute.org/

Any Muslim that dares to read Dr. Amari's book, will leave Islam.

[AnnaMuslim]

Amazingly, even some of today's Muslims look upon Mohammed's illiteracy as some sort of miracle. To non-Muslims illiteracy is usually a reflection of someone's mental incapacity or lack of education. Certainly a far cry from the very literate prophets and apostles that wrote the Gospel over 6 centuries earlier.

PROPHECY IS REVEALED, THE POINT OF SAYING THAT MUHAMMAD WAS ILLITERATE MEANS THAT THE QURAN IS OFT RECITED (NOT OFT WRITTEN WORDS) THE WORDS OF GOD WERE REVEALED TO MUHAMMAD AND HE ANNOUNCED IT ACCURATELY TO HIS COMPANIONS, IT WAS NOT NECESSARY TO WRITE IT DOWN FOR THE ARAB AT THE TIME BUT IT IS NECESARY FOR A NONE-ARAB TO BE ABLE TO MEMORIZE IT, IT WAS NOT EVER IN NEED OF WRITTEN PRESERVATION EVEN TODAY WE ARE ABLE TO TRANSFER THE COMPLETE AUDIO VERSION TO DISK, WE DO NOT NEED THE BOOK. AL QURAN IS ALIVE IN THE HEARTS OF HAFID (SCHOLAR THAT HAS MEMORIZED IT) AND YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BE ABLE TO READ OR WRITE TO KNOW IT AND UNDERSTAND IT, A MIRACLE? YES A MIRACLE!


We see, also, that Attar, in some Thamudic inscriptions, is given the title of 'Rami,' which, in the Arabic language of mecca and the Qur'an, means 'Akbar,' translated 'the biggest.' This is the same title given to Allah in the Qur'an. The intention of the worshippers of Venus was to say that the Venus deity star was the biggest of all stars. Both Allah in the Qur'an, and Athtar in the Thamudic inscruptions are called 'Rahim,' which means merciful.32 in the inscriptions from the area of Teima, there is a mention of a star called 'lame'h,' which means 'bright." This is most likely a reference to Venus, which is given in the inscriptions of the title of 'Rahim,'33

The Qur'an has copied many attributes of Arabian gods and given them to Allah. For example, the Thamud gods are described with the inscription; he was not conceived nor generated nor born. 34 This expression often was used in the Jahiliyah period; in fact, Kes Bin Saideh mentioned it in his sayings.35 Mohammed used to listen to Kes Bin Saideh when he was young. The same idea was copied in the Qur'an and used about Allah, such as Surah al-khlas 112;3, 'he begetteth not, nor is he begotten." This became a verse in the Qur'an. Much more in the book "Islam: In Light of History" by Dr. Rafat Amari http://religionresearchinstitute.org/

DID THE PAGANS MAKE UP THEIR OWN RELIGION? DO YOU NOT THINK THAT THE RITUALS ARE BASED ON SOMETHING MUCH OLDER, LIKE ACTUAL SCRIPTURE? OR DID GOD ONLY REVEAL SCRIPTURE TO A HANDFUL OF ELITE WHITE PEOPLE, HOW RACIST, HOW ELITIST?? PLEASE STAY FOCUSSED, YOU AND DR RAFAT AMARI ARE BOTH MISGUIDED AND YOUR MOTIVES STEM FROM HATRED FOR ISLAM.

IF ISLAM SOUNDS LOGICAL AND CONFORMS TO LOGIC YOU CALL IT SOMETHING ELSE AND SPECULATE THAT IT IS PLAGIARIZED, THIS IS YOUR OPINION, YOU COULD, IF YOU WERE NOT SO BIASED EASILY FORM ANOTHER OPINION, BUT YOUR FOUL HEARTEDNESS PREVENTS YOU FROM IT.


The SURAH ihklaas is not an idea, it is the verse of sincerity and it is a reply to those who falsely claim that Jesus is the son of GOD

Say: He is Allah, the One and Only! Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not nor is He begotten. And there is none like unto Him.

Surah Ikhlas is a very important Surah from the Holy Qur'an because it proclaims the Oneness (Tawhid) and Absolute nature of Divine Essence. This concept is presented in the first ayat. The second ayat declares that Allah is Eternal, i.e., He is beyond the bounds of time and space. The third ayat describes that Allah does not give birth nor is He is given birth and the last ayat declares that Allah is beyond comparison. Surah Ikhlas directly supports the first declaration (shahadah) of Islam: "There is no god but Allah". In this context, Islam is based on belief in one God (monotheism).

[Peter]

DID THE PAGANS MAKE UP THEIR OWN RELIGION?

Yes, of course they did.

DO YOU NOT THINK THAT THE RITUALS ARE BASED ON SOMETHING MUCH OLDER, ......

Yes, you mean like worship of a golden calf - worship of Baal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ba%27al
For the Arabians, they were impressed by moon, sun and stars (planets), so they worshiped them. They certainly weren't the first to do so. Men like Mohammed have created their own gods from mankind's very beginnings. Mohammed invented his to sanction rape, pillage and plunder of other people's property.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_deity

..... LIKE ACTUAL SCRIPTURE?

Not at all like scripture. Indeed the EXACT OPPOSITE of scripture. That's why Abraham destroyed ALL of his father's idols.
Not all but his favorite - most powerful idol - the way that Mohammed preserved the black stone the Quraish venerated.
This, along with actual Arabian historical record - indeed Quraish historical record - of moon, sun and star worship, is how we know that Islamic rituals find their origins in paganism.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1140.0
Who was Allah in Arabian star worship?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1240.0

Of course along with the FACT that there is not a single shred of historical or archaeological EVIDENCE that Mecca ever existed before pagan immigrants from Yemen built it in the 4th century AD and their Kaaba in the early 5th century that was dedicated to Arabian Star Family worship.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1138.0
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1132.0

[AnnaMuslim]

Quote from: AnnaMuslim on July 06, 2010, 04:00:41 AM
DID THE PAGANS MAKE UP THEIR OWN RELIGION?

Yes, of course they did.

Quote from: AnnaMuslim on July 06, 2010, 04:00:41 AM
DO YOU NOT THINK THAT THE RITUALS ARE BASED ON SOMETHING MUCH OLDER, ......

Yes, you mean like worship of a golden calf - worship of Baal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ba%27al
For the Arabians, they were impressed by moon, sun and stars (planets), so they worshiped them. They certainly weren't the first to do so. Men like Mohammed have created their own gods from mankind's very beginnings. Mohammed invented his to sanction rape, pillage and plunder of other people's property.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_deity


You admit that ritua are based on something older and at the same time you deny that they stemmed from corruption of the scripture!!!

This is your argumentative style, when proof is given it is plaguerised when points are made they cant be according to your opinion not be scripture, Your confusion is brought on by your biased singular thought process that does not allow you to move outside the parameters of the falsified doctrines you have been taught.


DR AMARA has no proof, only in his opinion things may have or perhaps it could be so, or more than likely comments tells me he is guessing at best, Just like Ellis Skollfield. These men are ignorant and if they are true scholars without hidden agendas would by now have read the true story of the BIBLE, A man mad account according to doctrines that contains some truths that are unfortunately shrouded in hundreds of LIES!!!

BUT to answer your Thread, illiterate implies that Muhammad did not read this or copy this Quran that is neither soothsaying or poetry, it is a book that rightly guides those that are GOD-Fearing.

Your definition of illiterate is elitist and once again a colonial (racist remark) and associated with those who arrogantly believe that they are educated while other races needs to learn from you. SATAN believes he is right and that human beings are inferior to him because he has the knowledge of the ages. It is this very nature that is leading him to hell-fire and daily torment. Take a hint and a lesson from it for yourself not to follow satan

Illiteracy means this is not a man-made written account of scriptures, Muhammad could not by himself arrange the words and passages and wisdom and, laws in a rhythmical tone and it makes perfect sense and one can read it over and over again without ever feeling like its repetitive and monotonous, and each time you read it your understanding of ALLAH increases.

Illiterate means that the verses were transfered exactly as revealed.

The Jabr story only confirms that Muhammad was telling the truth becuase Jabr may have told him one story but the Quran corrected the lies that were told to Jabr and the Jews.

The Jews in Madina confirmed the coming of Muhammad as they were waiting for the comforter, when Muhammad (sent as a mercy unto mankind) came to them they wer obviously shocked that GOD had chosen him (a non- JEW). And as you now reject Muhammad the jews rejected jesus and most of the prophets before. Your objections, insults and opinions are nothing new to men of GOD (MUSLIM)

And ALLAH knows Best
MAY ALLAH GUIDE US ALL to the straight Path (of truth)
The path of the righteous before us
not the path of those that have been cursed
nor those that have gone astray.



According

[Peter]

Quote from: AnnaMuslim on July 06, 2010, 04:00:41 AM
DID THE PAGANS MAKE UP THEIR OWN RELIGION?

Yes, of course they did.

Quote from: AnnaMuslim on July 06, 2010, 04:00:41 AM
DO YOU NOT THINK THAT THE RITUALS ARE BASED ON SOMETHING MUCH OLDER, ......

Yes, you mean like worship of a golden calf - worship of Baal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ba%27al
For the Arabians, they were impressed by moon, sun and stars (planets), so they worshiped them. They certainly weren't the first to do so. Men like Mohammed have created their own gods from mankind's very beginnings. Mohammed invented his to sanction rape, pillage and plunder of other people's property.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_deity


You admit that ritua are based on something older .............

Pagan worship is as old as mankind. From our beginnings men were in awe of the heavenly bodies that the pagan Arabs also worshiped in their many kaabas. They also venerated meteorites just as Muslims do today. Just as the pagans from Yemen, who migrated to where Mecca was built in the 4th century AD, and built their Kaaba in the early 5th century AD for moon, sun, star and jinn/demon worship.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=56.0

You are now required to back up your accusations, before you post any more, unrelated to that backing up. You wrote on another thread...
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1079.msg6440#msg6440

Dear Peter

Everything I type is relevant and not spam, you have so little understanding that I have to begin at the basics in order for you to grasp simple Religious concepts, before you are able to understand your role as a human being.You are not a person that listens to logic, you only listen to European and Americanized logic and that makes you a racist, you refute evidence from Hindus and Arabs and Persians that the Ka'aba existed long before Christianity, ........

Where did I refute the "evidence" that you claim I refuted? How can one refute something that one hasn't seen?
Where is the evidence from the Hindus, Arabs and Persians to which you refer?
Please bring the EVIDENCE, and post it at the following thread link so we can compare the EVIDENCE.
I of course mean historical evidence. Not that 7th and 8th century created Islamic historical fiction penned by those like Ishak and Tabari, but the actual historical record, recorded by those living in or near the times during which it is recorded.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1138.0

......... you present opinions as evidence. Most disturbing is that you quote from the Quran and Hadith out context and verses you have no knowledge of, you act out of ignorance, and your disrespect is not dialogue.

2 Timothy 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.    2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,    3  Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good

[PeteWaldo]

Narrated 'Aisha(R): Volume 4, Book 55, Number 605:  "..The Prophet returned to Khadija while his heart was beating rapidly. She took him to Waraqa bin Naufal who was a Christian convert and used to read the Gospel in Arabic....."

Narrated 'Aisha(R): Volume 1, Book 1, Number 3  Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the pre-Islamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write.