Daniel 7

[BLKsheep]

Before I start, I want to thank you for all the research you've done on Islam.  I haven't posted your link on my site yet but will soon.  I just don't have time to keep up with things these days.

Probably the biggest difference between you and I are that I'm a complete futurist much more than a normal one.  Even OT prophecies that many believe are fulfilled, I believe are not.  Daniel 7 is a good example of that and don't accept the traditional view of Daniel 2 or 7.

These are the main problems I have with some of these views.

Daniel chapter 7 was written about 35 years after Daniel's vision of the great statue in chapter 2, and in the first year of Belshazzar who was the last king of Babylon. Babylon was on it's way out when Daniel 7 was written.  Chapter 7 depicts four end-time beast.  Most interpreters seem to think chapter 7 depicts the same empires as those in Daniel 2.  They think Daniel 2 depicts four past empires which I agree.  I just disagree as to who they are.  They say the iron and clay and the fourth beast of Daniel 7 are future beast, which I agree, but disagree it's Rome.

Here's my problem with lion being ancient Babylon.

Some atheist have actually caught onto this blunder and used it to debunk the bible by calling Daniel a false prophet which he would certainly be, since he prophesied about something already in existence.

In Daniel 2, I say the sequence of empires goes as follows.

Babylon = Head of Gold
Mede's = Arms of silver
Persian' s = Thighs of brass
Greeks = Legs of iron.

Medo-Persian was not inferior to Babylon, and the word 'mixed' which describes the iron and clay is the word, 'arab' which denotes Arabia or an Arabian.

Toes mingled with iron and clay = future and final Arab/Islamic kingdom from the area of the old Grecian Empire. (Mid-East)  (Babylon)

I say chapter 7 isn't a historical repeat of chapter 2. Why would God find it necessary to repeat any vision by the same author? Why repeat the same sequence of kingdoms of Daniel 2 in chapter 7?  Were there shortcomings in Daniel 2 that required repetition?  Interpreters say that the Lion of Daniel 7 is Babylon.

How can the lion be Babylon when the date of the vision occurred in the first year of Belshazzar who was the last king of Babylon? The Babylonian Empire had already risen decades before and was on it's way out when Daniel 7 was written!  Why would Daniel prophesy about a kingdom that was already in existence for about 50 years and soon to end? Some atheist have actually caught onto this blunder and used it to debunk the bible by calling Daniel a false prophet which he would certainly be, since he prophesied about something already in existence.

A PROPHET CANNOT PROPHESY ABOUT SOMETHING ALREADY IN EXISTENCE WITHOUT TRULY BEING A FALSE PROPHET!

Most interpreters think that the vision of wings being plucked off and the heart of a man given to it refers to Nebuchadnezzar going mad and being restored 7 years later. That's unlikely since that happened about 20 years before Daniel had the vision! AGAIN!  Daniel cannot prophesy about something that already occurred! The lion could certainly be today's Iraq.  The wings being plucked off could represent the U.S. military leaving Iraq.  Some people think maybe it's England.  But it can't be ancient Babylon. The four beast of Daniel 7 are all end time empires.

I also believe there are two ten nation, MAYBE EVEN 3, 10 horned end-time kingdoms/beast.

Another example is the first seal and those who say Christ is the rider.  I say that's impossible for several logical reasons.

I also see Islam as Babylon the Great and mother of jihadist and the two horned beast represents the Shia and Sunni sects of Islam.

Most people focus their attention on Rev. 13, 17, and Daniel 7.  I think the most neglected prophecies are in Isaiah and Habakkuk.  Especially the Leviathan prophecy which I now believe is ISIL.

I also have a completely different view of the four horsemen.  I say 'holy war' is the first seal, and the second seal is the fall of Saddam and Iraq.  The third seal is next and I say that's ISIS.  The fourth seal may have something to do with Assad or ISIS too.

[ExMilitary]

Welcome to the forums

I'm going to quote you out of order to make a point.

A PROPHET CANNOT PROPHESY ABOUT SOMETHING ALREADY IN EXISTENCE WITHOUT TRULY BEING A FALSE PROPHET!

In Daniel 2, I say the sequence of empires goes as follows.

Babylon = Head of Gold

Daniel 2:36-38 "This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king. Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold."

By your own standard of what constitutes a 'false prophet', wouldn't Daniel's vision in chapter 2 be a false prophecy since the kingdom (head of gold) already existed... in fact would you not be implying that God is a liar?

Why repeat the same sequence of kingdoms of Daniel 2 in chapter 7?

Reread chapter 7, and remember the characteristics of the first three beasts (who are preserved for a time and a season).  Then, turn quickly to Revelation 13:2.

If after that, you still don't understand go here http://www.beholdthebeast.com/daniels_four_beasts.htm

Heed the words of 2 Peter 1:20.

Don't listen to Atheists, they are fools arguing to justify their hatred for God.  The reason they don't understand is because they have been handed over to be consumed in darkness.

"God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding..."

You need to spend some time going through some stuff (if you haven't already) offered on this site.

[PeteWaldo]

Before I start, I want to thank you for all the research you've done on Islam.  I haven't posted your link on my site yet but will soon.

Sorry about my manners but I just noticed you post count when ExMil welcomed you to the forum.
Welcome to the forum bro!

[PeteWaldo]

Why repeat the same sequence of kingdoms of Daniel 2 in chapter 7?

The answer to that is found in the bifidic and chiasmic nature of Hebrew poetry:
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/bifids_chiasms.htm#4

[BLKsheep]

Daniel 2:36-38 "This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king. Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold."

By your own standard of what constitutes a 'false prophet', wouldn't Daniel's vision in chapter 2 be a false prophecy since the kingdom (head of gold) already existed... in fact would you not be implying that God is a liar?

Here we go with the "God is a liar" response!  I've heard it dozens of times on forums and reason enough for me to just get away from this forum just like all the others I've left.  It's an unnecessary reply!  This is my first post/reply on the forum and I'm ready to say, "see you later."   I don't deal well with those insinuations!

Nebuchadnezzar said,

But if ye shew the dream, and the interpretation thereof, ye shall receive of me gifts and rewards and great honour: therefore shew me the dream, and the interpretation thereof.

Nebuchadnezzar asked for someone to disclose the dream itself as well as the interpretation of the dream.  Daniel isn't prophesying about the rise of Babylon or Nebuchadnezzar.  He's disclosing the vision/dream/SECRET to Nebuchadnezzar.

The king answered and said to Daniel, whose name was Belteshazzar, Art thou able to make known unto me the dream which I have seen, and the interpretation thereof?

Daniel answered in the presence of the king, and said, The secret which the king hath demanded cannot the wise men, the astrologers, the magicians, the soothsayers, shew unto the king;

As for thee, O king, thy thoughts came into thy mind upon thy bed, what should come to pass hereafter: and he that revealeth secrets maketh known to thee what shall come to pass.

HEREAFTER!  Hereafter WHO or WHAT?  AFTER NEBUCHADNEZZAR'S BABYLON!

The vision, the dream, the secret,... and what is to come....COMES AFTER Nebuchadnezzar.  Daniel isn't prophesying about the rise of Babylon, only what comes AFTER!

I hate to say it brother but it's comments like yours who give people like me an unfavorable opinion of forum Christians.  I'm not calling God a liar!  Let's get that straight right now and STOP with those kinds of insinuations!

Reread chapter 7, and remember the characteristics of the first three beasts (who are preserved for a time and a season).  Then, turn quickly to Revelation 13:2.

I've read it dozens of times.  Probably a hundred times!

"As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time."

ALL four beast are present on earth at the same time.  They are KINGS who've lost their kingdoms.  This verse in no way implies they are kings or kingdoms that existed thousands of years ago and progressed up to today.  The word BEFORE in verses 7 and 8 means "in the presence of," indicating they are all present on earth at the same time.

If after that, you still don't understand go here http://www.beholdthebeast.com/daniels_four_beasts.htm

I've already read it and disagree.

Heed the words of 2 Peter 1:20.

2 Peter 1:20  Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

You should heed the words of 2 Peter 1:20 as well!

Don't listen to Atheists, they are fools arguing to justify their hatred for God.  The reason they don't understand is because they have been handed over to be consumed in darkness.

I do listen to the atheist.  Most atheist know that a TRUE prophet of God CANNOT prophesy about something already in existence.  Christians should know this but...CHRISTIANS DON'T CARE!  They would rather remain loyal to what they already believe than admit mistakes.  Any sensible Christian NOT IN DENIAL should know that prophesying about something already in existence deems that person A FALSE PROPHET! 

"God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding..."

You need to spend some time going through some stuff (if you haven't already) offered on this site.

I have no idea why you would post that passage especially after you insinuated that I was calling God a liar.  Get a Christian life!

I've probably read more on this site than you have.  I've been coming here for several years!  Probably 8+ years.  You're probably one the the guys I encountered on another forum pushing the progressive fulfillment thing.   

[BLKsheep]

If after that, you still don't understand go here http://www.beholdthebeast.com/daniels_four_beasts.htm

This is a portion of that link...

There is a broad agreement among Jewish and Christian scholars that the kingdoms represented by Daniel's lion, bear and leopard, are the successive ancient kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece, followed by the fourth "terrible" beast, that is understood to be the Roman Empire.

I can't agree that there is "broad agreement" among Christian scholars that "the kingdoms represented by Daniel's lion, bear and leopard, are the successive ancient kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece, followed by the fourth "dreadful and terrible" beast, that is understood to be the Roman Empire."

Many people who USED to believe the above statement have changed their mind on this.  First of all, ROME is non-existent in all of bible prophecy.

"I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.  These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth."

Babylon had already risen some 50 years before Daniel 7 was written!  If Daniel is referring to ancient Babylon, then I agree with atheist Kyle Williams.  Daniel is a false prophet!

This conclusion is reached within the traditional continuous-historic context of prophecy.  This is simply the view that bible prophecy is fulfilled steadily, as the era about which it is written gradually unfolds.  This is the context in which virtually all Christians and Jews understand Old Testament prophecy.

I don't believe that prophecy "gradually unfolds."  The latter part of Daniel 7 seems to debunk the, "traditional continuous-historic context of prophecy."

...before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots:

...I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit,

... I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.  "These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth." But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

You will never convince me that these four beast/kingdoms are ancient empires.  These kings/kingdoms are likely end-time kings and/or countries that have been formed into an Islamic caliphate of sorts. I don't know who or what these beast represent. I just don't accept them as historical, just like I don't accept the heads or horns of Revelation 13 and 17 as historical.  They are complete end-time entities.

[ExMilitary]

Daniel 2:36-38 "This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king. Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold."

By your own standard of what constitutes a 'false prophet', wouldn't Daniel's vision in chapter 2 be a false prophecy since the kingdom (head of gold) already existed... in fact would you not be implying that God is a liar?

Here we go with the "God is a liar" response!  I've heard it dozens of times on forums and reason enough for me to just get away from this forum just like all the others I've left.  It's an unnecessary reply!  This is my first post/reply on the forum and I'm ready to say, "see you later."   I don't deal well with those insinuations!

Nebuchadnezzar said,

But if ye shew the dream, and the interpretation thereof, ye shall receive of me gifts and rewards and great honour: therefore shew me the dream, and the interpretation thereof.

Nebuchadnezzar asked for someone to disclose the dream itself as well as the interpretation of the dream.  Daniel isn't prophesying about the rise of Babylon or Nebuchadnezzar.  He's disclosing the vision/dream/SECRET to Nebuchadnezzar.

The king answered and said to Daniel, whose name was Belteshazzar, Art thou able to make known unto me the dream which I have seen, and the interpretation thereof?

Daniel answered in the presence of the king, and said, The secret which the king hath demanded cannot the wise men, the astrologers, the magicians, the soothsayers, shew unto the king;

As for thee, O king, thy thoughts came into thy mind upon thy bed, what should come to pass hereafter: and he that revealeth secrets maketh known to thee what shall come to pass.

HEREAFTER!  Hereafter WHO or WHAT?  AFTER NEBUCHADNEZZAR'S BABYLON!

The vision, the dream, the secret,... and what is to come....COMES AFTER Nebuchadnezzar.  Daniel isn't prophesying about the rise of Babylon, only what comes AFTER!

Which is quite baffling since he clearly speaks of what is already existing.  KJV "maketh known to thee what shall come to pass".  Shall come... the golden head?  Shall come?  It was there.

I hate to say it brother but it's comments like yours who give people like me an unfavorable opinion of forum Christians.  I'm not calling God a liar!  Let's get that straight right now and STOP with those kinds of insinuations!

Here is what you are left with: If your interpretation is wrong, and the passage in Daniel 7, indeed, is speaking of Babylon, then you are calling Daniel a false prophet when, clearly, Jesus says he is not.

The entire book of Daniel is about Messiah (Jesus said so).  Every other prophetic and historic chapter in the book is about what happens historically.  Every other prophetic chapter identifies all parties involved, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, the kingdom that is in place when Jesus is "cut off" (Rome), and then the expansion of that kingdom and final judgment.  The images are repetitive.

In light of the context of the entire book, why would chapter 7 be different.  What indication do we have that it is different than the others... especially in light of the historical evidence?

Reread chapter 7, and remember the characteristics of the first three beasts (who are preserved for a time and a season).  Then, turn quickly to Revelation 13:2.

I've read it dozens of times.  Probably a hundred times!

"As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time."

ALL four beast are present on earth at the same time.  They are KINGS who've lost their kingdoms.  This verse in no way implies they are kings or kingdoms that existed thousands of years ago and progressed up to today.  The word BEFORE in verses 7 and 8 means "in the presence of," indicating they are all present on earth at the same time.

Islam DID pluck up 3 of the horns: Jerusalem, Antioch, and Alexandria

Don't listen to Atheists, they are fools arguing to justify their hatred for God.  The reason they don't understand is because they have been handed over to be consumed in darkness.

I do listen to the atheist.

To your own demise.

[PeteWaldo]

I do listen to the atheist.

And you obviously harvested and consumed the rotted fruit to be expected of such an encounter.

Most atheist know that a TRUE prophet of God CANNOT prophesy about something already in existence.  Christians should know this but...CHRISTIANS DON'T CARE!  They would rather remain loyal to what they already believe than admit mistakes.  Any sensible Christian NOT IN DENIAL should know that prophesying about something already in existence deems that person A FALSE PROPHET!

Prophets don't prophecy about things in existence, but it is certainly not unusual for them to include things that are past and/or present within the context of their prophecy. Indeed here's what John was assigned to write about in his prophecy:

Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Here is a verse he wrote under that assignment that exposes the atheist's/your nonsense quite handily:

Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/johns_eight_beasts.htm

"God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding..."

Indeed.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/falling_away_apostasy.htm

You need to spend some time going through some stuff (if you haven't already) offered on this site.

I have no idea why you would post that passage especially after you insinuated that I was calling God a liar.  Get a Christian life!

Do you really think that your misguided and insulting suggestion to ExMilitary, to "Get a Christian life!", can really be best accomplished by getting into bed with cults that reject the Trinity like:

People who follow Joseph Smith
People who follow Charles Taze Russell
People who follow Mary Baker Eddy
People who follow Herbert W. Armstrong
People who follow Dr. John Thomas
People who follow Frank Ewart
People who follow Sun Myung Moon
People who follow Charles and Myrtle Fillmore
People who follow L. Ron Hubbard
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=4256.msg16982#msg16982

2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4  And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/traditional_framework.htm#cults

And People who follow Muhammad

Quran 5:73 (Y. Ali) They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. -   

Since Muhammad denied the basis of the whole subject of the Gospel, and was an antichrist that denied the Son of God, who do you suppose inspired Muhammad to suggest that the 95% of Christians which are Trinitarian, to be proclaiming a "word (of blasphemy)"?
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/

Which is of course why Muslims appreciate the blasphemy of Jehovah's Witnesses so much.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2148.0

I've probably read more on this site than you have.  I've been coming here for several years!  Probably 8+ years.  You're probably one the the guys I encountered on another forum pushing the progressive fulfillment thing.

While it's difficult to guess just what you are describing, ExMil and I approach New Testament prophecy in the tradition of historicism through which all Jews and Christians understand Old Testament prophecy was fulfilled, and the available evidence suggests that the church for its first 1800 years, understood New Testament prophecy was being fulfilled. In other words, a uniform approach to all Bible prophecy. Isn't that novel?! (Though appearing novel, only to Christians of the last century.)
http://www.christianeschatology.com/historicism.htm

[PeteWaldo]

I can't agree that there is "broad agreement" among Christian scholars that "the kingdoms represented by Daniel's lion, bear and leopard, are the successive ancient kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece, followed by the fourth "dreadful and terrible" beast, that is understood to be the Roman Empire."

That you desire to disagree is immaterial. Non-Messianic Jewish scholars also share the same understanding of our shared Old Testament scriptures, as that broad agreement among Christian scholars.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=4545.0

[PeteWaldo]

I do listen to the atheist.

And you obviously harvested and consumed the rotted fruit to be expected of such an encounter.

Most atheist know that a TRUE prophet of God CANNOT prophesy about something already in existence.  Christians should know this but...CHRISTIANS DON'T CARE!  They would rather remain loyal to what they already believe than admit mistakes.  Any sensible Christian NOT IN DENIAL should know that prophesying about something already in existence deems that person A FALSE PROPHET!

Prophets don't prophecy about things in existence, but it is certainly not unusual for them to include things that are past and/or present within the context of their prophecy. Indeed here's what John was assigned to write about in his prophecy:

Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Here is a verse he wrote under that assignment that exposes the atheist's/your nonsense quite handily:

Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/johns_eight_beasts.htm

Did you understand this part of the post? If you don't think it refuted the atheist's argument you brought in here, why didn't you reply as to how it didn't?

[BLKsheep]

Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

First...

The word ARE IS NOT in the original text!

The passage actually reads,

There are seven kings:, five fallen.

FIVE ARE FALLEN?
The word ARE is in the original text in this phrase...

There are seven kings

But NOT in this portion...

five (are) fallen

The word ARE is a third person plural present indicative. This passage isn't a reflection of world empires. It is a picture of a complete end-time entity. There are seven kings, five kings ARE fallen. These kings are all present on earth at the same time.

The kingdoms of Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece had fallen by John's time.

For John to have a vision that prophesy's about of an end-time beast only to have some of the elements of the beast be historical actually makes him a false prophet. A prophet cannot prophesy about kings (kingdoms not explicitly implied) that have already passed. The words used in the text indicates they are all end-time KINGS!

[PeteWaldo]

You don't need to rewrite the Bible, in order to bend it to accomodate your pre-conceived notions. All those machinations when you might have otherwise considered the part you failed to quote:

Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

I don't know if you noticed, but you are stretching a bit much.
Have you ever had any exposure to the Penticostal Church?

[BLKsheep]

You don't need to rewrite the Bible, in order to bend it to accomodate your pre-conceived notions. All those machinations when you might have otherwise considered the part you failed to quote:

Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

I don't know if you noticed, but you are stretching a bit much.
Have you ever had any exposure to the Penticostal Church?

I'm trying to have an amicable discussion here and all you do is complain, and even complain that I failed to quote Revelation 1:19, some 16 chapters prior to the verse in question...Revelation 17!  You're really something!  I take it you don't like the way I study the bible. 

Isn't it YOU who says that "literal passages of the bible ARE NOT open to interpretation?" 

Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

I realize that you've accepted historical view, but you're the one who is bending it to accommodate YOUR pre-conceived notions of historicism.

In Revelation 1:19 John DID NOT SEE any of Revelation 19's heads or horns emerge or fall other than the, 'one that is.'

I've had exposure to nearly every church there is and I don't accept any ones doctrine.  I don't accept the Pentecostal view of the gifts of the Spirit.  And I don't accept any ones eschatology.

So now you think I'm a Pentecostal huh?  Why are you so bent on labeling people?

[PeteWaldo]

You don't need to rewrite the Bible, in order to bend it to accomodate your pre-conceived notions. All those machinations when you might have otherwise considered the part you failed to quote:

Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

I don't know if you noticed, but you are stretching a bit much.
Have you ever had any exposure to the Penticostal Church?

I'm trying to have an amicable discussion here and all you do is complain, and even complain that I failed to quote Revelation 1:19, some 16 chapters prior to the verse in question...Revelation 17!  You're really something!  I take it you don't like the way I study the bible.

Likely not if you don't recognize that verse describes the whole context of the prophetic vision that follows.

Isn't it YOU who says that "literal passages of the bible ARE NOT open to interpretation?"

Yes, and that is a literal verse, that precedes the figurative language of the vision that follows. So when John is to describe the things that were, are and will be - to John - that's just what his vision goes on to do.

Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

I realize that you've accepted historical view, but you're the one who is bending it to accommodate YOUR pre-conceived notions of historicism.

In Revelation 1:19 John DID NOT SEE any of Revelation 19's heads or horns emerge or fall other than the, 'one that is.'

I've had exposure to nearly every church there is and I don't accept any ones doctrine.  I don't accept the Pentecostal view of the gifts of the Spirit.  And I don't accept any ones eschatology.

So now you think I'm a Pentecostal huh?

I simply asked. Perhaps you are unaware, but there is no shortage of those with one-off interpretations of scripture such as yourself, that have had exposure to Penticostalism.

Why are you so bent on labeling people?

I noted you didn't answer.

[PeteWaldo]

You don't need to rewrite the Bible, in order to bend it to accomodate your pre-conceived notions. All those machinations when you might have otherwise considered the part you failed to quote:

Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

I don't know if you noticed, but you are stretching a bit much.
Have you ever had any exposure to the Penticostal Church?

I'm trying to have an amicable discussion here and all you do is complain, and even complain that I failed to quote Revelation 1:19, some 16 chapters prior to the verse in question...Revelation 17!  You're really something!  I take it you don't like the way I study the bible.

Likely not if you don't recognize that verse describes the whole context of the prophetic vision that follows.

Isn't it YOU who says that "literal passages of the bible ARE NOT open to interpretation?"

Yes, and that is a literal verse, that precedes the figurative language of the vision that follows. So when John is to describe the things that were, are and will be - to John - that's just what his vision goes on to do. That it doesn't fit with the doctrine that atheists gave you is unimportant.

Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

I realize that you've accepted historical view, but you're the one who is bending it to accommodate YOUR pre-conceived notions of historicism.

In Revelation 1:19 John DID NOT SEE any of Revelation 19's heads or horns emerge or fall other than the, 'one that is.'

I've had exposure to nearly every church there is and I don't accept any ones doctrine.  I don't accept the Pentecostal view of the gifts of the Spirit.  And I don't accept any ones eschatology.

So now you think I'm a Pentecostal huh?

I simply asked. Perhaps you are unaware, but there is no shortage of those with one-off interpretations of scripture such as yours, that have had exposure to Penticostalism.

Why are you so bent on labeling people?

I did note you didn't answer. The reason I asked is "Jesus only" Penticostalism.

[BLKsheep]

You really know how to get under somebodies skin...

Pete said,


That it doesn't fit with the doctrine that atheists gave you is unimportant.

You are bent on making people look bad by distorting what people say.  I'm in my 60's too and have studied Daniel 7 more than most Christians.  Years BEFORE I found what atheist Kyle Williams believed about Daniel 7, I KNEW that a TRUE prophet of God cannot be a true prophet IF he prophesies about a kingdom rising that had already risen.  So lay off the atheist kick of badmouthing because your just trying to badmouth and belittle me.  Other than CONFIRM one thing that I already believe about false prophets, the atheist have contributed absolutely nothing to my beliefs. But YOU have contributed to their affirmation that Daniel is a false prophet which ultimately debunks the bible.  Congratulations!

Did you know we are commanded to LISTEN?


Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:

Hear...

to attend to, consider what is or has been said, to understand, perceive the sense of what is said

[PeteWaldo]

You really know how to get under somebodies skin...

Pete said,


That it doesn't fit with the doctrine that atheists gave you is unimportant.

You are bent on making people look bad by distorting what people say.  I'm in my 60's too ........

So are millions of Muslims. How one receives truth doesn't have much to do with age.

....... and have studied Daniel 7 more than most Christians.  Years BEFORE I found what atheist Kyle Williams believed about Daniel 7, .......

And I agreed that you received what he gave you.

...... I KNEW that a TRUE prophet of God cannot be a true prophet IF he prophesies about a kingdom rising that had already risen.

Because you are still laboring under the ridiculous notion that history, for  some reason, cannot be a part of the context of a prophetic dream or vision. Even when history is assigned to be a part of that prophetic vision. God gave you the free will to run with the atheists if you so choose.

So lay off the atheist kick of badmouthing because your just trying to badmouth and belittle me.  Other than CONFIRM what I already believe, the atheist have contributed absolutely nothing to my beliefs. But YOU have contributed to their affirmation that Daniel is a false prophet which ultimately debunks the bible.  Congratulations!

Did you know we are commanded to LISTEN?


Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:

Hear...

to attend to, consider what is or has been said, to understand, perceive the sense of what is said

Indeed. So why do you ignore posts?

[BLKsheep]

See you later Pete, your nothing but an arrogant badmouther.  I figured I'd give it another try but your attitude continues to stink.  Have fun replying to yourself.


Psalm 55:12-14   
It is not an enemy who taunts me—
I could bear that.
It is not my foes who so arrogantly insult me—
I could have hidden from them.
Instead, it is you—my equal,
my companion and close friend.
What good fellowship we once enjoyed
as we walked together to the house of God.

[PeteWaldo]

At least a permanent record will remain through which folks can judge for themselves.

[ExMilitary]

I've had exposure to nearly every church there is and I don't accept any ones doctrine.  I don't accept the Pentecostal view of the gifts of the Spirit.  And I don't accept any ones eschatology.

...nuff said...

[PeteWaldo]

I've had exposure to nearly every church there is and I don't accept any ones doctrine.  I don't accept the Pentecostal view of the gifts of the Spirit.  And I don't accept any ones eschatology.

...nuff said...

He never did say which one of the Trinity he rejects. The Father, Son or Holy Spirit. Rather than simply answering he believes in all three, he switched the subject to arguing against a doctrine.

He never seemed able to understand - or more likely admit to what he learned during the chat as fact - that past events do indeed sometimes compose a part of the whole context of a prophecy, such as the prophecy in Revelation that even defines itself that way in advance.

Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;