Revelation reveals meaning of "time and times and half a time"

[ps49]

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/time_times_and_half.htm

This article gives us compelling reason to consider a "time" (as per Daniel and Revelation) as being a period of 1000 years. Thus a "time and times and the dividing of time" and other equivalent references can be considered to be a period of 2500 years.

However, whilst reading Revelation chapter 12 last night I noticed something interesting:-

12 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars.  2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.

3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads.  4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born.  5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.  6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Satan Thrown Out of Heaven

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,  8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them[a] in heaven any longer.  9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.  11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.  12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

The Woman Persecuted

13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child.  14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.  15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood.  16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.  17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The two texts highlighted in bold seem to speak of the same event but use different terminology to define the period of "wilderness time."

So for Revelation to be consistent with itself, it must mean that "time and times and half a time" is the same as "one thousand two hundred and sixty days". 

So using the day = year prophetic custom, a "time" must be a period of 504 years and half a "time" is 252 years.

Since both definitions of the "wilderness time" are found so close together in Revelation, perhaps 1260 years is the hermeneutically correct interpretation of "time and times and half a time?"

[PeteWaldo]

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/time_times_and_half.htm

This article gives us compelling reason to consider a "time" (as per Daniel and Revelation) as being a period of 1000 years. Thus a "time and times and the dividing of time" and other equivalent references can be considered to be a period of 2500 years.

However, whilst reading Revelation chapter 12 last night I noticed something interesting:-

12 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars.  2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.

3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads.  4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born.  5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.  6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Satan Thrown Out of Heaven

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,  8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them[a] in heaven any longer.  9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.  11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.  12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

The Woman Persecuted

13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child.  14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.  15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood.  16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.  17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The two texts highlighted in bold seem to speak of the same event but use different terminology to define the period of "wilderness time."

Only by presumption you choose. Two different descriptions were used.
Jews lost power while being scattered among gentile in the "wilderness" of the nations, from their exile, until they gained power over Israel in 1948 and Jerusalem in 1967.

So for Revelation to be consistent with itself, it must mean that "time and times and half a time" is the same as "one thousand two hundred and sixty days". 

So using the day = year prophetic custom, a "time" must be a period of 504 years and half a "time" is 252 years.

Since both definitions of the "wilderness time" are found so close together in Revelation, perhaps 1260 years is the hermeneutically correct interpretation of "time and times and half a time?

That does not display an understanding of hermeneutics. What you are saying is that if an apple and orange, are in close proximity to each other in scripture, then they must be the same. Proximity would only matter in trying to understand the same term; that is found in two different places. Like John's lion, bear, and leopard.

Did you read The False Prophet yet?

[ps49]

Jews lost power while being scattered among gentile in the "wilderness" of the nations, from their exile, until they gained power over Israel in 1948 and Jerusalem in 1967.

Correct - and Rev 12 describes the period of "wilderness time" or scattering twice. In one desription it is 1260 days and the other it is a "time and time and half a time."

That does not display an understanding of hermeneutics. What you are saying is that if an apple and orange, are in close proximity to each other in scripture, then they must be the same.

Incorrect. The texts are clearly describing the same period of scattering so they are both, if you like apples.  The use of the diverse terminology actually provides the key to unlocking Daniel and history.

Then you will see that Revelation is actually a continuation of Daniel:-

2 x 1260 = 2520 years.

You were accidentally close with the 2500 years, which you obtained from the somewhat tortured interpretation of 2 Peter 3:8.

Then to make it fit, you omitted the prophetic year conversion and then painfully distorted the third year of Cyrus - which was indeed in 537 and not 533 as you would like.

As a result you lost Beatrice the atheist in that other thread.

[PeteWaldo]

That was a non-response to a question I even bolded so you wouldn't miss it.

Jews lost power while being scattered among gentile in the "wilderness" of the nations, from their exile, until they gained power over Israel in 1948 and Jerusalem in 1967.

Correct - and Rev 12 describes the period of "wilderness time" or scattering twice. In one desription it is 1260 days and the other it is a "time and time and half a time."

That does not display an understanding of hermeneutics. What you are saying is that if an apple and orange, are in close proximity to each other in scripture, then they must be the same.

Incorrect. The texts are clearly describing the same period of scattering so they are both, if you like apples.

What do we find when we search for an adjacent hermenetic of the term?
https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=time+times+half&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_1

The use of the diverse terminology actually provides the key to unlocking Daniel and history.

Then you will see that Revelation is actually a continuation of Daniel:-

2 x 1260 = 2520 years.

You were accidentally close with the 2500 years, .......

Sure. Accidentally close with two problems that span 2500 years in parallel and pin the years of 1948 and 1967 perfectly, for the end of the shattering of the power of the holy people. That's quite some mathematical and textual accident!

...... which you obtained from the somewhat tortured interpretation of 2 Peter 3:8.

Then to make it fit, you omitted the prophetic year conversion and then painfully distorted the third year of Cyrus - which was indeed in 537 and not 533 as you would like.

As a result you lost Beatrice the atheist in that other thread.

[PeteWaldo]

As a result you lost Beatrice the atheist in that other thread.

No, like you, Beatrice desired to wish the dating were about me. And like Beatrice, even after recognizing that dating isn't about me, you keep wishing it were. That you desire to disbelieve a mathematical miracle, that aptly explains the text, is up to you. Certainly God gave you the free will to do so, and far be it from me to insist that a common dating - uploaded by folks who aren't trying to make this mathematical case at all - is the correct one. Let alone that scholars recognize a from 1 to 3 year leeway in dating of the Babylonian period. But your insistence, and increasingly unpleasant nature of your posts, does make me wonder if you came to this forum with some pretty iron-clad preconceived notions. Have you published a book or other material?

For the benefit of others, the search results I presented to Beatrice were all within the first two pages of results when I did that search:

I have already explained quite clearly that your dates are either incorrect in the prophecy date, or the author of the book has got their facts wrong.

See how much effort you have to put into your disbelief? Now you are pretending it is the author of one book, that dates the first year of Cyrus in Babylon to 537-536, even after I quoted just a few of many that date it the same way. Setting up a straw man messenger, you wish you could then shoot, in efforts to run and hide from the truth.

"The archeology record indicates that Cyrus enters Babylon the year following his victory, entering the city BC 537, and that after the following year (which would be 536 BC), in 535 BC, Cyrus is crowned king of Babylon in a large display."
http://www.angelfire.com/bc2/Bereans/Myfiles/Chronology/cyrus.html
".....first year of King Cyrus the Persian may not have begun till late in the year 538 B.C. to extend over into the following year of 537 B.C."
http://www.strictlygenteel.co.uk/babylon/babylon18.html
"The Bible shows that the Jews returned to their homeland in the first year of King Cyrus, which would have been 537-B.C.E."
http://www.2001translation.com/587_or_607.htm
"He died 536 b.c., and Cyrus succeeded him; and as the order to rebuild the temple was in the first year of Cyrus, the time referred to in this chapter....."
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/daniel/9-1.htm
"The Persian Empire was founded by Cyrus in 536 BC., after they succeeded the Babylonian Empire. The first king of the Persian Empire was Cyrus, who issued the famous decree for the Jews to return to their homeland to rebuild their Temple."
http://www.bible-history.com/maps/04-persian-empire.html
"Therefore, the ascension year of Cyrus over the province of Babylon was 537/6 B.C., and his first calendar year was 536/5 B.C."
https://www.wake-up.org/Daniel/DanChap5.htm

Did your comment "...every source apart from yours seems to indicate it was 539 BC..." suggest you were putting effort into being honest enough with yourself to consider the evidence, or instead putting all of your effort into DISbelief, even at the expense of truth?
Would you at this point agree that 537-536 is supportable dating - at least in the opinion of many - for the first year of Cyrus (as likely hundreds or perhaps even thousands of sites attest)?

Believe as you wish, my friend.
I'll continue to let the scriptures confirm the dating with mathematical and textual confirmation.

[ps49]

Where is the Berean spirit? I just see doctrine of Ellis.
Precept by precept my friend. Ring a bell?
You have no idea of what I'm talking about, but I'll post soon.

[PeteWaldo]

Where is the Berean spirit? I just see doctrine of Ellis.

That's because you insist on self-imposed blindness, since just like the atheist, you ignored those sites because you wish the dating of the first year of Cyrus were about Ellis and I. Your insistence yet again, even after I pointed out a second time that none of those sites I posted were making the same mathematical case.
So what did you do? Write a book or website that you feel you have to defend?

Precept by precept my friend. Ring a bell?
You have no idea of what I'm talking about, but I'll post soon.

No need. I'm sure you would be more comfortable in another forum.

[ps49]

How peculiar - what makes you think I've written a book or website? Nothing could be further from the truth. Do you think I should?

I'm actually completely new to the "historiscist" approach to the bible and this website has been a most excellent enlightening experience for me. I am therefore very grateful to you and Ellis and now consider my self an "historiscist." Then again I never subscribed to "futurism" either - it became quickly obvious that it just does not work. So I lapsed into what you might call a weird sort of preterism for a while but that didn't work either. I knew all along that Islam had something to do with it, I could just sense it, nagging away endlessly. It bothered me so much I took a few months off work to investigate - that's when I came upon this website, and I'm glad I did!

So yes, I have read "The False Prophet."  I can't say I agree with all of it; I've hinted as much with some of my recent threads, including this one.  Mostly it is a good read but I have a good many issues with it too. For example, and perhaps most worrying, is the suggestion that God has a wry sense of humour concerning the allegedly misplaced Dome of the Rock. I don't believe there is any room for humour in a matter of such grave seriousness and would shy away from saying such things. I found it cringe-worthy.

As for the dates, I'll keep an open mind but for now I'm very happy that Revelation 12 shows that "a time, times and half a time" is indeed 1260 years. So concerning Daniel and Revelation, the "times" prophecies then hop quite nicely from Cyrus's third year (taken as 537 BC) to the completion of the "abomination which makes desolate" (AD 705) and then onto 1948. And yes, I would say that the power of the holy people had been quite shattered by AD 705 - the Rashidun Caliphate made sure of that. I'm sorry if you find that unpleasant, I am not out to offend you or anyone else for that matter.

[ps49]

Maybe this "adjacent hermeneutic" helps you to understand:-

https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=woman+wilderness+place&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_1

[PeteWaldo]

I had written a reply before you posted your last post, but got interrupted, so i will post it a little late.

How peculiar - what makes you think I've written a book or website?

You seemed adamant with what seemed an unwillingness to be satisfied with simply let me use the dating I and those other unrelated websites enjoy, and you be satisfied with your dating. Sometimes after someone publishes they may feel under obligation to defend what they wrote, even long after they themselves have doubts about it.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Do you think I should?

I'm actually completely new to the "historiscist" approach to the bible and this website has been a most excellent enlightening experience for me. I am therefore very grateful to you and Ellis and now consider my self an "historiscist." Then again I never subscribed to "futurism" either - it became quickly obvious that it just does not work. So I lapsed into what you might call a weird sort of preterism for a while but that didn't work either. I knew all along that Islam had something to do with it, I could just sense it, nagging away endlessly. It bothered me so much I took a few months off work to investigate - that's when I came upon this website, and I'm glad I did!

So yes, I have read "The False Prophet."  I can't say I agree with all of it; I've hinted as much with some of my recent threads, including this one.  Mostly it is a good read but I have a good many issues with it too. For example, and perhaps most worrying, is the suggestion that God has a wry sense of humour concerning the allegedly misplaced Dome of the Rock. I don't believe there is any room for humour in a matter of such grave seriousness and would shy away from saying such things. I found it cringe-worthy.

Thank you very much for that. I  cringe as I read it in your comment. "Wry sense of humor" was ALL ME, on that math page, and not Ellis in his book. I'll correct it with I get back home (I'd appreciate it if you check and remind me if you find I forgot.)
It was fun to hear him tell about the first time that ever struck him. He rolled over with laughter to realize they built it on the wrong rock.

As for the dates, I'll keep an open mind but for now I'm very happy that Revelation 12 shows that "a time, times and half a time" is indeed 1260 years. So concerning Daniel and Revelation, the "times" prophecies then hop quite nicely from Cyrus's third year (taken as 537 BC) to the completion of the "abomination which makes desolate" (AD 705) and then onto 1948. And yes, I would say that the power of the holy people had been quite shattered by AD 705 - the Rashidun Caliphate made sure of that.

Their power was shattered for 3500 years. While the Romans allowed them some autonomy, they nonetheless lived at the pleasure of the Romans, as evidenced by their being slaughtered in 70AD and again about 70 years later.

I'm sorry if you find that unpleasant, I am not out to offend you or anyone else for that matter.

I didn't find this post unpleasant at all bro. Indeed helpful. It seemed to be in a different spirit than the last couple posts.

[PeteWaldo]

Maybe this "adjacent hermeneutic" helps you to understand:-

https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=woman+wilderness+place&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_1

I saw that when you first brought it up. I think you would agree that Israel certainly fled into the wilderness of the nations more than once, and the most impportant difference between those verses would seem the "two wings of a great eagle".

[ps49]

Sometimes after someone publishes they may feel under obligation to defend what they wrote, even long after they themselves have doubts about it.

I see. No I have nothing to defend, I'm just trying to figure all of this out. In a very real sense you've given me the tools to conduct my own historical/prophetic investigation. I prefer to do that than just accept what people tell me; it's just the way I prefer to learn. I don't mean to be argumentative but am just testing the waters.  You see, when I get all this prophetic interpretation reasonably straight I intend to use it evangellically. I don't want to mess up by getting shot down over dates.

Thank you very much for that. I  cringe as I read it in your comment. "Wry sense of humor" was ALL ME, on that math page, and not Ellis in his book.

Oh, sorry. Too much reading can sometimes befuddle the mind! Yeah - I would change it. Saying things like that about God seems very unwise.

Their power was shattered for 3500 years. While the Romans allowed them some autonomy, they nonetheless lived at the pleasure of the Romans, as evidenced by their being slaughtered in 70AD and again about 70 years later.

So what happened around 1553 BC then? I take you to mean 3500 years before 1948?

The placing of the abomination by the Rashidun Caliphate really does represent the pinnacle of desolation, I would have thought? There's nothing left: the people have either been exterminated or driven out of their own land (and then pursued as the Caliphate expanded) and a shrine to a false god sits in the Holy of Holies. How does it get worse than that?

[PeteWaldo]

Sometimes after someone publishes they may feel under obligation to defend what they wrote, even long after they themselves have doubts about it.

I see. No I have nothing to defend, I'm just trying to figure all of this out. In a very real sense you've given me the tools to conduct my own historical/prophetic investigation. I prefer to do that than just accept what people tell me; it's just the way I prefer to learn. I don't mean to be argumentative but am just testing the waters.  You see, when I get all this prophetic interpretation reasonably straight I intend to use it evangellically. I don't want to mess up by getting shot down over dates.

537-536 BC for the first year of Cyrus is quite well supported. That's why it wasn't been "shot down" for the 35-40 years that Ellis advanced this study. Along with those sites that I listed I just popped open Halley's Bible Handbook that also puts the third year of Cyrus at 534. Over the last 10 years or so, every time I carried something to Ellis that I thought was a problem, it invariably turned out not to be.

Their power was shattered for 3500 years. While the Romans allowed them some autonomy, they nonetheless lived at the pleasure of the Romans, as evidenced by their being slaughtered in 70AD and again about 70 years later.

So what happened around 1553 BC then? I take you to mean 3500 years before 1948?

I should have written "Their power was shattered for over 2500 years." not 3500 years. And yes, before 1948.

[ps49]

537-536 BC for the first year of Cyrus is quite well supported. That's why it wasn't been "shot down" for the 35-40 years that Ellis advanced this study. Along with those sites that I listed I just popped open Halley's Bible Handbook that also puts the third year of Cyrus at 534. Over the last 10 years or so, every time I carried something to Ellis that I thought was a problem, it invariably turned out not to be.

Great, so then in a nut shell, how would you explain a 537-536 BC dating in your own words? If I recall correctly, you mentioed Darius in another thread as being important but I couldn't see how.

I should have written "Their power was shattered for over 2500 years." not 3500 years. And yes, before 1948.

So 552 BC then, towards the end of the Babylonian era. The first year of Belshazzar as per Daniel 7? Or do you mean the destruction of Jerusalem in 586 BC?