A Muslim's Appeal to Christians - Know the Real Jesus in the Bible

[relaxboy]

Salam to my Christian friends

I stumble upon this site and had the chance to read through some of the comments from the forumers here. I am sad to note that there are so much hatred, misconceptions and bigotry against Islam and his Prophet.

I would like to reach out to the same people who write erroneous things about Islam, as well as Christians who are open to intelligent discussions and who are more objective in tackling issues regarding Islam and Christianity.

Maybe, we should start with a topical discussion. Let us discuss the status of Jesus, the son of Mary, and maybe Christians would like to tell me why you claim Jesus was God, when I have not seen any statement from Jesus that he ever claimed to be God or His son.

Looking forward to your reply.... and hopefully a constructive discussion.

Regards

[PeteWaldo]

I guess I answered your second post first:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2023.msg19499#msg19499

Salam to my Christian friends

Hello again to you my friend and welcome to the forum. May God bless you.

I stumble upon this site and had the chance to read through some of the comments from the forumers here. I am sad to note that there are so much hatred,.........

As Christians, the best and most important way for us to love our Muslim could-become-brethren, is to show them the truth. Our hatred of Islam stems from the fact that it is the exact opposite of that revealed through the love of the one true God, since Muhammad deceived his followers into denying the whole subject of the Gospel.

You see, while this is a bit of "tough love", from a Christian perspective Muhammad was a lying, antichrist, hater and bigot, who along with his followers, blaspheme our Lord and Savior by proclaiming such blasphemy as:

Surah 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

While our Gospel proclaims:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Again the Quran:

Surah 9.29 Fight those.....(even if they are) of the People of the Book.....30 .....Christians call Christ the son of Allah. ..... Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

And again the Gospel:

1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

Can you understand it is a 2-way street? Can you understand that Muhammad's 23-year 7th century record, is absolutely irreconcilable with the 1600 year record of the one true God of Jews and Christians, as revealed through all of His prophets and witnesses? That the Quran is as opposite to the whole subject of the Gospel as Muhammad was the opposite of Jesus Christ?
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm

Here are some of your former brethren that have come to know the love of the one true God through a relationship with Jesus Christ:
http://www.muslimjourneytohope.com/watch.php

.........misconceptions and bigotry against Islam and his Prophet.

I hope you can point out some of the "misconceptions" that you believe we have regarding true, fundamental, orthodox Islam.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm#muslim_hypocrites

Since Muhammad proclaimed the exact opposite of the whole subject of the Gospel - that is, filled his followers with complete resolve as to what to DISbelieve - it should be no surprise that when we point this out it could be misconstrued as "bigotry" against Muhammad and his stand-alone, 7th century, counter-Gospel, anti-religion.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/islam_is_antichrist.htm

I would like to reach out to the same people who write erroneous things about Islam, as well as Christians who are open to intelligent discussions and who are more objective in tackling issues regarding Islam and Christianity.

We thank you for stopping by since we would like to do the same. We particularly would like for you to point out the difference between what Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi and the Islamic State are doing, that Muhammad himself and his followers didn't do, and his prescribe for his true orthodox followers who have engaged the same for 1600 years and to this very day.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=4787.0

Maybe, we should start with a topical discussion. Let us discuss the status of Jesus, the son of Mary, and maybe Christians would like to tell me why you claim Jesus was God, when I have not seen any statement from Jesus that he ever claimed to be God or His son.

We have several threads in this very forum section, that discuss the divinity of Jesus Christ.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=571.0

However you will not be well served by spending your time on that "mystery" as long as you must deny the whole subject of the Gospel as revealed through the prophets and witnesses in the 1600 year record of YHWH to mankind.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm
To follow Muhammad alone through his heavily substituted, 23-year, 7th century record.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=116.0

Looking forward to your reply.... and hopefully a constructive discussion.

Regards

Me too, my friend, and welcome to the forum!
Please begin by pointing out what, in any of the above, you believe to be untrue.
I'll try to make my answers more brief from now on, but wanted to provide some background so you could understand where we are coming from.

[PeteWaldo]

If you are unfamiliar with Simple Machines software, and you want to multi-quote, the method I use is explained at this link:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=39.0

[relaxboy]

Hello again to you my friend and welcome to the forum. May God bless you.

As Christians, the best and most important way for us to love our Muslim could-become-brethren, is to show them the truth. Our hatred of Islam stems from the fact that it is the exact opposite of that revealed through the love of the one true God, since Muhammad deceived his followers into denying the whole subject of the Gospel.

You see, while this is a bit of "tough love", from a Christian perspective Muhammad was a lying, antichrist, hater and bigot, who along with his followers, blaspheme our Lord and Savior by proclaiming such blasphemy as:

Surah 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

While our Gospel proclaims:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Again the Quran:

Surah 9.29 Fight those.....(even if they are) of the People of the Book.....30 .....Christians call Christ the son of Allah. ..... Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

And again the Gospel:

1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

Can you understand it is a 2-way street? Can you understand that Muhammad's 23-year 7th century record, is absolutely irreconcilable with the 1600 year record of the one true God of Jews and Christians, as revealed through all of His prophets and witnesses? That the Quran is as opposite to the whole subject of the Gospel as Muhammad was the opposite of Jesus Christ?
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm

Here are some of your former brethren that have come to know the love of the one true God through a relationship with Jesus Christ:
http://www.muslimjourneytohope.com/watch.php

I have asked this question to many Christians - Where did Jesus said he was god?

I always get the same reply - Christians quoting from Bible saying another person CLAIMING that Jesus was god.

That was a wrong answer.

At least, there were some Christians who made an effort to quote a line or two of Jesus' words which they pushed as his call of being divine.

Come on, show me something concrete. 

[ExMilitary]

Hello again to you my friend and welcome to the forum. May God bless you.

As Christians, the best and most important way for us to love our Muslim could-become-brethren, is to show them the truth. Our hatred of Islam stems from the fact that it is the exact opposite of that revealed through the love of the one true God, since Muhammad deceived his followers into denying the whole subject of the Gospel.

You see, while this is a bit of "tough love", from a Christian perspective Muhammad was a lying, antichrist, hater and bigot, who along with his followers, blaspheme our Lord and Savior by proclaiming such blasphemy as:

Surah 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

While our Gospel proclaims:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Again the Quran:

Surah 9.29 Fight those.....(even if they are) of the People of the Book.....30 .....Christians call Christ the son of Allah. ..... Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

And again the Gospel:

1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

Can you understand it is a 2-way street? Can you understand that Muhammad's 23-year 7th century record, is absolutely irreconcilable with the 1600 year record of the one true God of Jews and Christians, as revealed through all of His prophets and witnesses? That the Quran is as opposite to the whole subject of the Gospel as Muhammad was the opposite of Jesus Christ?
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm

Here are some of your former brethren that have come to know the love of the one true God through a relationship with Jesus Christ:
http://www.muslimjourneytohope.com/watch.php

I have asked this question to many Christians - Where did Jesus said he was god?

I always get the same reply - Christians quoting from Bible saying another person CLAIMING that Jesus was god.

That was a wrong answer.

At least, there were some Christians who made an effort to quote a line or two of Jesus' words which they pushed as his call of being divine.

Come on, show me something concrete. 

Revelation 1:8-18 "I am Alpha and Omega...the Almighty"... I John... heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet Saying, "I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last"...I turned to see the voice that spake with me... And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, "Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen"


OR more succinctly

Revelation 1:8-18 "I am ...the Almighty...that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore"

The one voice speaking to John said that he was both the Almighty and the one who was alive, dead, and alive...

There it is.  Do you believe now?

[relaxboy]

Revelation 1:8-18 "I am Alpha and Omega...the Almighty"... I John... heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet Saying, "I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last"...I turned to see the voice that spake with me... And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, "Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen"


OR more succinctly

Revelation 1:8-18 "I am ...the Almighty...that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore"

The one voice speaking to John said that he was both the Almighty and the one who was alive, dead, and alive...

There it is.  Do you believe now?

Just curious.

Rev 1:8

8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” declares the Lord God, “the one who is, who was, and who is coming, the Almighty.”

The "Almighty" here is what Christians believe as "God", "The Father" or "Jehovah"?

AND

“Stop being afraid! I am the first and the last, 18 the living one. I was dead—but look!—I am alive forever and ever! I have the keys of Death and Hades." Rev 1:18

The above you believe to be "Jesus" or "The Son"

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+1

My answer:
1. One is called "Almighty" and the other is "the living one". God is "Almighty" but Jesus is not called "the Amighty".

2. Are you trying to tell the readers here that based on Rev 1:8 and 1:18, that Jesus is both Almighty and the Living one above?

3. If so, are you saying that Jesus is God and the Father is God, hence Jesus = Father?
Think carefully before you reply. You may shake the whole trinity doctrine.

[ExMilitary]

Revelation 1:8-18 "I am Alpha and Omega...the Almighty"... I John... heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet Saying, "I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last"...I turned to see the voice that spake with me... And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, "Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen"


OR more succinctly

Revelation 1:8-18 "I am ...the Almighty...that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore"

The one voice speaking to John said that he was both the Almighty and the one who was alive, dead, and alive...

There it is.  Do you believe now?

Just curious.

Rev 1:8

8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” declares the Lord God, “the one who is, who was, and who is coming, the Almighty.”

The "Almighty" here is what Christians believe as "God", "The Father" or "Jehovah"?

AND

“Stop being afraid! I am the first and the last, 18 the living one. I was dead—but look!—I am alive forever and ever! I have the keys of Death and Hades." Rev 1:18

The above you believe to be "Jesus" or "The Son"

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+1

My answer:
1. One is called "Almighty" and the other is "the living one". God is "Almighty" but Jesus is not called "the Amighty".

2. Are you trying to tell the readers here that based on Rev 1:8 and 1:18, that Jesus is both Almighty and the Living one above?

3. If so, are you saying that Jesus is God and the Father is God, hence Jesus = Father?
Think carefully before you reply. You may shake the whole trinity doctrine.

Why are you shifting the goal posts?  Let's deal with just one issue at at time:

I just gave you concrete evidence that THE ONE SPEAKING, whom John saw, claimed to be both the Almighty, and the one that liveth, was dead, and is now alive forevermore.  There are not "one" and "the other" as you say.  There is just one in this passage.  The words in John's testimony make this very clear.

Now, keeping in the context of Revelation, EVERY subsequent use of this Greek word in the entire book of Revelation is referring to God (Rev 4:8, 11:17, 15:3, 16:7, 16:14, 19:6, 19:15, and 21:22)

It isn't going to get any more concrete than this.  This is an unambiguous declaration.  Yet, you still do not believe.

You say, "show me where Jesus claimed to be God".  I show you that the one who lives, was dead, and lives forever more called himself the Almighty... and you say, "That isn't good enough".  Well, that is all you will get.

[PeteWaldo]

My answer:
1. One is called "Almighty" and the other is "the living one". God is "Almighty" but Jesus is not called "the Amighty".

As was pointed out to you, Jesus is called the Almighty in that verse.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Here's Old Testament prophecy of His coming: 

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

2. Are you trying to tell the readers here that based on Rev 1:8 and 1:18, that Jesus is both Almighty and the Living one above?

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are of one essence or one being:

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Jesus was how God chose to manifest or reveal Himself to mankind. A mediator between man and God that we would have a capacity to understand through the Spirit. Just as God revealed Himself in the flesh of a man to Abraham:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/god_manifest_flesh.htm#manifest_in_flesh

3. If so, are you saying that Jesus is God and the Father is God, hence Jesus = Father?

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Jesus was sacrificed for our sins, died and was resurrected from the dead, as He left this earth He proclaimed:

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Who has all power? Where do you suppose your Islamic blasphemy against Him will take you?

Think carefully before you reply. You may shake the whole trinity doctrine.

My friend you are the one that needs to think. Do you really want to continue to reject the one true God as revealed through all of His prophets and witnesses in His 1600 year record to mankind, to continue to follow the stand-alone false prophet Muhammad alone, through adopted, adapted and thinly veneered pagan Arabian moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship rituals?
http://www.petewaldo.com/hajj_umrah.htm#index

Here is why people outside the Spirit of God are so hostile to truth:

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

You see, one has to be of the Spirit before one can understand the things of the Spirit of God. Blessedly all we have to do is sincerely ask Him to reveal Himself to us:
http://www.muslimjourneytohope.com/watch.php

Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

That's why I recommended that you begin by discussing the fact that Muhammad's followers must reject the whole subject of the Gospel and deny and blaspheme the Son of God, since those subjects are specific and clear cut.

Now let's look at your thread title:

"A Muslim's Appeal to Christians - Know the Real Jesus in the Bible"

Here is how the "Real Jesus" revealed Himself "in the Bible":

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Jesus IS THE TRUTH. God gave us all the free will to choose life or death. Your choice, your fate.

1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

[PeteWaldo]

We are desperate for you my friend. You have obviously never even read the Gospel. Why not read it now?
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/gospel_of_john.htm

There's no shortage of poor bible-ignorant souls that, because they never bothered to seek out the truth in the scriptures, instead were fooled into the deception of Greek sophist styled entertaining, lying antichrist deceivers like Ahmed Deedat. He even fooled those that worship him into believing that the First Epistle of John suggests that Muhammad was not an antichrist but even a true prophet! Why not read that Epistle for yourself and judge as to whether Deedat's effort was nothing more than the dissimulation of Islamic taqiyyah?
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/first_epistle_john.htm

You too can come to know the love of the one true God of the scriptures, through a relationship with Jesus Christ, as these former brethren of yours did:
http://www.muslimjourneytohope.com/watch.php

[relaxboy]

Why are you shifting the goal posts?  Let's deal with just one issue at at time:

I just gave you concrete evidence that THE ONE SPEAKING, whom John saw, claimed to be both the Almighty, and the one that liveth, was dead, and is now alive forevermore.  There are not "one" and "the other" as you say.  There is just one in this passage.  The words in John's testimony make this very clear.

Now, keeping in the context of Revelation, EVERY subsequent use of this Greek word in the entire book of Revelation is referring to God (Rev 4:8, 11:17, 15:3, 16:7, 16:14, 19:6, 19:15, and 21:22)

It isn't going to get any more concrete than this.  This is an unambiguous declaration.  Yet, you still do not believe.

If Alpha and Omega are terms referring to Jehovah, God, or what you called the Father, Jesus NEVER CLAIMED he was the Alpha and Omega. Jesus may use other terms, first and the last (of what?), but not claiming the title of God, if Alpha and Omega is indeed a title of God.

The argument just collapsed.

[PeteWaldo]

Why are you shifting the goal posts?  Let's deal with just one issue at at time:

I just gave you concrete evidence that THE ONE SPEAKING, whom John saw, claimed to be both the Almighty, and the one that liveth, was dead, and is now alive forevermore.  There are not "one" and "the other" as you say.  There is just one in this passage.  The words in John's testimony make this very clear.

Now, keeping in the context of Revelation, EVERY subsequent use of this Greek word in the entire book of Revelation is referring to God (Rev 4:8, 11:17, 15:3, 16:7, 16:14, 19:6, 19:15, and 21:22)

It isn't going to get any more concrete than this.  This is an unambiguous declaration.  Yet, you still do not believe.

If Alpha and Omega are terms referring to Jehovah, God, or what you called the Father, Jesus NEVER CLAIMED he was the Alpha and Omega.

He wouldn't need to since the scriptures inform us of that fact, as I showed you. The Alpha and Omega. The beginning and the end. Coexistent with the Father from before the world was:

Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Jesus may use other terms, first and the last (of what?), but not claiming the title of God, if Alpha and Omega is indeed a title of God.

The argument just collapsed.

This is why you should have avoided this subject, since you don't even know what God's name is, or you would be able to understand that Jesus claimed His name repeatedly.
God is not named after the Quraish pagan's deity (most likely their moon god) "Allah". God's name is YHWH or Yahweh (as occurs nearly 6,000 times in scripture). It means "I AM" or, "the existent one

Exd 3:13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, [when] I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What [is] his name? what shall I say unto them? 14  And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=108.0

Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

[relaxboy]

As was pointed out to you, Jesus is called the Almighty in that verse.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

I bold the word "Amen" to help you understand that when John ended his statement, he will write "Amen".

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants[a] what must soon take place; he made it known by sending his angel to his servant[c] John, 2 who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.

3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of the prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and who keep what is written in it; for the time is near.

4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia:

Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

To him who loves us and freed[d] us from our sins by his blood, 6 and made[e] us to be a kingdom, priests serving[f] his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

7
Look! He is coming with the clouds;
    every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him;
    and on his account all the tribes of the earth will wail.

So it is to be. Amen.

8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.

Note John wrote "Amen" after what he heard. Not so for verse 8. Verse 8 is not about Jesus.

Here's Old Testament of His coming:  Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Pls show me in the bible where Jesus was called the Everlasting Father?

Again, your proposal may shake the foundation of Christology if you claim Son =Father.

[relaxboy]

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are of one essence or one being:

John 10:30 I and my Father are one

.
The above has been quoted rather extensively by Christians to prove Jesus is God. My response:

1. If the word "one" makes you equate Jesus with the Father, and hence his divinity, then you might as well include the disciples as divine as well, for they are also "one" with the Father and Jesus.

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. (John 17:21)

2. So, 'one' above refers to 'one in objective' not 'one in divinity'.

3. Even so, the trinity does not teach you that the Son = the Father.  Tell me I am wrong here.

[PeteWaldo]

You are hopelessly squandering your time as long as Muhammad forces you to deny the whole subject of the Gospel. You were already shown that a person outside the Spirit of God cannot understand the things  of the Spirit of God. Yet you insist on continuing in your blasphemy against the one true God.
We've done what we can for you. The rest is between you and Jesus Christ.

As long as you deny the whole subject of the Gospel, and blaspheme His Son and the blood He shed for you, it doesn't matter what else you wish to believe or disbelieve.

And in typical Muslim fashion, ignoring all of those verses that are most important for you to recognize.

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm#crucifixion_fulfilled

Any surprise then that the people of the father of lies are taught that to confess that Jesus is the Son of God, or even to pray in Jesus' name, would be to commit the single most "heinous" and only unforgivable sin in the false prophet Muhammad's counter-Gospel, antichrist, anti-religion.

So tell us my friend, do you believe that each and every Christian throughout the entirety of the last nearly 2,000 years, is condemned forever for having lived and died and in a state of committing Muhammad's only unforgivable sin?
http://petewaldo.com/unforgivable_shirk.htm

1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

Jhn 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

And for antichrist liars?

Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

[relaxboy]

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Pls allow me to explain what you would have already known but choose to keep a close eye to this.

God has sent to the world many prophets, each guiding and preaching the people to the One God. Jesus, was one of the prophets (as he himself claimed). So, during his ministry, he was the 'way' , the 'truth', the 'life' of the Jews during his time.  There is nothing in the statement to show that Jesus was claiming divinity.

Moses, might be the way, the truth, the life, for people during Moses' time.

Muhammad (pbuh), is the 'truth', the 'way' and the 'life' for all who accept his as the last prophet.

[PeteWaldo]

Muhammad (pbuh), is the 'truth', the 'way' and the 'life' for all who accept his as the last prophet.

That's exactly right! You won't get an argument from me. "Muhammad (pbuh), is the 'truth', the 'way' and the 'life' for all who accept his as the last prophet.", and it isn't like we weren't given fair warning.

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

But Muhammad didn't even bother with the sheep's clothing but came as a ravening wolf!
Muhammad is a "messenger" for all who follow the father of lies, in the exact opposite of the Gospel. For all who must reject the record of the one true God of Jews and Christians, as revealed through all of His prophets and witnesses in His 1600 year record, to follow Muhammad alone by denying the whole subject of the Gospel and that record of revelation of the one true God.

To follow a single man that is revealed through Islam's own books as as a mass-murdering, imperialistic conquering, little girl doing, female prisoner abusing, concubine fornicating, thief.
Compare Muhammad (whose corpse still lies rotting in its shallow grave) with the sinless Messiah, the Prince of Peace:
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm

[relaxboy]

At this point, I have not provided you with any lies.

I have discussed with you earnestly that you and many Christians are reading the bible but do not really understand what Jesus said.

You quoted the bible to prove Jesus was divine but overlooked other verses which completely cancel your views on the perceived divinity of Christ.

In fact, your views actually went against the basic framework of Christianity, if the verses quoted aimed to prove the Son = the Father.

I open my arms to all to discuss further on the non-existent of evidence for the divinity of Jesus, the son of Mary.

[ExMilitary]

Why are you shifting the goal posts?  Let's deal with just one issue at at time:

I just gave you concrete evidence that THE ONE SPEAKING, whom John saw, claimed to be both the Almighty, and the one that liveth, was dead, and is now alive forevermore.  There are not "one" and "the other" as you say.  There is just one in this passage.  The words in John's testimony make this very clear.

Now, keeping in the context of Revelation, EVERY subsequent use of this Greek word in the entire book of Revelation is referring to God (Rev 4:8, 11:17, 15:3, 16:7, 16:14, 19:6, 19:15, and 21:22)

It isn't going to get any more concrete than this.  This is an unambiguous declaration.  Yet, you still do not believe.

Jesus NEVER CLAIMED he was the Alpha and Omega.

I just showed you the passage where He does exactly that... Alpha/Omega... alive, dead, alive forever more... same one speaking... John says so
There it is in black and white.

[relaxboy]

I just showed you the passage where He does exactly that... Alpha/Omega... alive, dead, alive forever more... same one speaking... John says so
There it is in black and white.

Pls see Post #12.

The words Alpha and Omega was not referring to Jesus. In fact, no where in the bible was Jesus using the term "Alpha and Omega".

[PeteWaldo]

Please do not use large font except for emphasis. Please do not use colored font uniformly.

At this point, I have not provided you with any lies.

Perhaps you mean you tried to avoid lying with intent (that is to say, engaging in taqiyyah).
But most of what you have put in this forum are in fact blasphemous lies from straight out of the pit of hell and the father of lies himself. Like your parroted preposterous claim of bible corruption (to the extent of becoming its exact opposite!) that I replied to at the following link (Please don't address it here or it will be going on in two places.).
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2023.msg19525#msg19525

I have discussed with you earnestly that you and many Christians are reading the bible but do not really understand what Jesus said.

And we have shown you that your conclusions are erroneous, with your not even knowing God's name. Meanwhile you have ignored what Jesus said and the whole subject of the Gospel. You have ignored the many verses presented that condemn the false prophet Muhammad and his followers. If you really believe yourself to be honest, let's start with Jesus' own prophecy of His crucifixion, death and resurrection:

Matthew 20:17 And Jesus going up to Jerusalem took the twelve disciples apart in the way, and said unto them, 18 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death, 19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify [him]: and the third day he shall rise again.

Making reference to His own prophecy after He was risen from the dead:

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm

You quoted the bible to prove Jesus was divine but overlooked other verses which completely cancel your views on the perceived divinity of Christ.

In fact, your views actually went against the basic framework of Christianity, if the verses quoted aimed to prove the Son = the Father.

I open my arms to all to discuss further on the non-existent of evidence for the divinity of Jesus, the son of Mary.[/size][/color]

The son of Mary and THE only begotten Son of God. Unless, of course, you believe that Mary impregnated herself and remains the sole parent, as your post seems to indicate.

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/jesus_the_son_of_god.htm

And again, you are squandering your time. A person may still be saved as long as he has faith in the saving grace of the shed blood of the Lamb of God - the whole subject of the Gospel - even if he doesn't understand the deity of Christ. Which will continue to give you difficulty as long as you stand outside of the Spirit of God. So it is pointless for you to dwell on that subject. Let's move on to the whole subject of the Gospel.
And the scriptures may indicate that anyone who remains ignorant to, or doesn't understand the whole subject of the Gospel, may not be condemned for their ignorance:

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

But you are in full knowledge of the truth, my friend, and yet you reject the truth of the Gospel to follow the false prophet Muhammad alone.

2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

[ExMilitary]

I just showed you the passage where He does exactly that... Alpha/Omega... alive, dead, alive forever more... same one speaking... John says so
There it is in black and white.

Pls see Post #12.

The words Alpha and Omega was not referring to Jesus. In fact, no where in the bible was Jesus using the term "Alpha and Omega".

Seriously?  I'll post it for you AGAIN:

Revelation 1:10-18

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice... Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last... And I turned to see the voice that spake with me... And when I saw him... he... saying unto me...I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore

Pay special attention here: We have "a great voice" that says "I am Alpha and Omega the first and the last".  John says he turns to see this great voice (to see who is speaking) and he sees one like the Son of Man who REPEATS "I am the first and the last".... AND ALSO SAYS "I am he that liveth, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore."

Yeshua is the one who is speaking, here.  He tells us this by identifying His birth, death, and resurrection.

To believe this passage is referring to someone else is lunacy.

Here, Yeshua claims:
1.  Alpha and Omega
2.  Beginning and End
3.  The Almighty

This is concrete.  How can anyone open your eyes if you can't even acknowledge what is plainly written?

[relaxboy]

Seriously?  I'll post it for you AGAIN:

Revelation 1:10-18

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice... Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last... And I turned to see the voice that spake with me... And when I saw him... he... saying unto me...I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore

I take the initiative to provide a link to the various bible translations of Revelation 1:11.

http://biblehub.com/revelation/1-11.htm

 Virtually all modern translations do not include in Rev 1:11 the following words that are in the KJV version of that verse:


"Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and,"

The statement at Rev. 1:11 in the KJV and NKJV is recognized as spurious by most knowledgeable modern Bible scholars.

[ExMilitary]

Seriously?  I'll post it for you AGAIN:

Revelation 1:10-18

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice... Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last... And I turned to see the voice that spake with me... And when I saw him... he... saying unto me...I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore

I take the initiative to provide a link to the various bible translations of Revelation 1:11.

http://biblehub.com/revelation/1-11.htm

 Virtually all modern translations do not include in Rev 1:11 the following words that are in the KJV version of that verse:


"Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and,"

The statement at Rev. 1:11 in the KJV and NKJV is recognized as spurious by most knowledgeable modern Bible scholars.

If you reject the KJV/NKJV, then you are rejecting the same manuscripts approved by Muhammad in the 7th century.  Even your own prophet told us to search THESE manuscripts... Certainly you aren't telling me Muhammad was wrong, are you?

[relaxboy]

I take the initiative to provide a link to the various bible translations of Revelation 1:11.

http://biblehub.com/revelation/1-11.htm

 Virtually all modern translations do not include in Rev 1:11 the following words that are in the KJV version of that verse:


"Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and,"

The statement at Rev. 1:11 in the KJV and NKJV is recognized as spurious by most knowledgeable modern Bible scholars.

If you reject the KJV/NKJV, then you are rejecting the same manuscripts approved by Muhammad in the 7th century.  Even your own prophet told us to search THESE manuscripts... Certainly you aren't telling me Muhammad was wrong, are you?

Incredulous.

You do not seem to mind if some bible scholars declared that the bible contain interpolations and spurious materials.
Instead of defending your scripture against this accusation, you turned your defence against Muhammad (pbuh) and claimed he told Muslims to search the KJV bible.

The KJV bible was produced in the 17th century and you think Muslims start searching the KJV bible in the 7th century. 



Anyway, back to the topic,  do you agree that Jesus NEVER claimed to be the Alpha and Omega?

 

[PeteWaldo]

Relaxboy, do you understand deep in your heart, why you have been avoiding the whole subject of the Gospel like the plague? It is because Muhammad's counter-gospel, antichrist, anti-religion denies the whole subject of the Gospel - indeed the whole bible - since the Messiah was repeatedly prophesied in the Old Testament:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/psalms_22.htm
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/isaiah_53.htm

Either the 1600 year record of Yahweh to mankind as revealed through all of His prophets and witnesses is true, and Muhammad - as revealed through his stand-alone, exactly opposing, heavily abrogated, 23-year 7th century record - was a false prophet.

Or the prophets and witnesses as revealed through the 1600 year record of YHWH to mankind whose people have followed Him through two covenants for 3500 years, are false, with Jesus being chief among the false prophets. While Muhammad was a stand-alone true prophet, since he denied the whole subject of that 1600 year record of revelation of Yahweh to mankind, 500 years after the scriptures were complete.

One obviously can't believe in direct opposites. One must choose, my friend. Between the sinless Messiah, the Lamb of God, the Prince of Peace, or the sinful, mass murdering Muhammad as he is revealed through Islam's own books.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm

I have discussed with you earnestly that you and many Christians are reading the bible but do not really understand what Jesus said.

And again, we have shown you that your conclusions are erroneous, with your not even knowing God's name. Meanwhile you have repeatedly ignored what Jesus said and the whole subject of the Gospel. You have ignored the many verses presented that condemn the false prophet Muhammad and his followers. If you really believe yourself to be honest, let's move on to the whole subject of the Gospel, beginning with Jesus' own prophecy of His crucifixion, death and resurrection:

Matthew 20:17 And Jesus going up to Jerusalem took the twelve disciples apart in the way, and said unto them, 18 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death, 19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify [him]: and the third day he shall rise again.

Jesus making reference to His own prior prophecy after He was risen from the dead:

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm

And His crucifixion in Old Testament prophecy, that Jesus made reference to, hundreds of years before crucifixion was ever even invented:

Psalms 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/psalms_22.htm
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/isaiah_53.htm

Confirmed as fulfilled prophecy:

Matthew 27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm#crucifixion_fulfilled