5 - Sura 5:51 "...take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends..."

[Pete]

naliakbar video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpgRIGRbF8s&watch_response
The bible isn't about what we wish it is, though many treat it that way.
By the same token, the Quran isn't about what you wish it is. That's why there have been over 12,000 deadly terror attacks just since 9-11.

Your take on this verse is different that 3 separate English translations:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html

YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.


MARRIAGE TO KAFIR is an entirely different thing. That allows the Muslim to get a foot in the door of a Christian community. Through marriage he gains CONTROL, unlike in friendships where there is mutual exchange.

The wife lives under the threat of loosing her children.
He can then beat his wife into submission to his will:

Sura (4:34) - "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."

Bukhari (72:715) - A woman came to Muhammad and begged her to stop her husband from beating her.  Her skin was bruised so badly that she it is described as being "greener" than the green veil she was wearing.  Muhammad did not admonish her husband, but instead ordered her to return to him and submit to his sexual desires.

Muslim (4:2127) - Muhammad struck his favorite wife, Aisha, in the chest one evening when she left the house without his permission.  Aisha narrates, "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain."

http://www.light-of-life.com/eng/reveal/r5405efc.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2EFCYc2JhY&mode=related&search=
http://www.rawa.org/index.php



The following excerpt from "Who is this Allah" by G.J.O. Moshay.  A Nigerian who has seen first hand how Islam works:

""Oh you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as 'Auliya' (friends, protectors, helpers etc.), they are but 'Auliya' to one another.  And if any amongst you takes them as 'Auliya' then surely he is one of them.  Verily, Allah guides not those people who are the Zalimun (polytheists and wrongdoers and unjust)" (Surah 5:51 Al Hilali, Verse 54, Yusuf Ali).

In other words, any Muslim who becomes a Christian or even befriends a Christian leaves the leadership and control of Allah.

So, all Islamic leaders who come to British and American Church leaders for inter-faith co-operation are either defying the instructions of Allah or they have a hidden agenda.  The Islam of the 7th century AD is the same today, probably under new guises as the situation demands.  It is the same tactic of "No compulsion in religion" that Mohammed first adapted to Christians and Jews, that Muslims are using in the Western world today.  Migrate to Christian areas because they are tolerant.  Pretend to be peaceful, friendly and hospitable; begin to clamor for religious, political and social rights and privileges that you will not allow to Christians in an Islamic country; breed fast there and settle down; there should be no Christian activities in your community; you may speak or write to discredit their religion, but they must not talk about Islam; begin to expand your community; Christian activities should be restricted in all the places you expand to; the moment you have enough military might against these 'disbelievers', these Trinitarian kaferis, go ahead and eliminate them or suppress them as much as you can, and be in control.  Where immediate invasion is not possible, that has always been the policy.

There are so many incitements against Christians and non-Muslims running through the pages of the Quran that we find it hard to believe that anybody can be a real practicing Muslim now or then and not hate Christians.  It is impossible.  Any Muslim who is not violent (secretly or openly) is hardly a real Muslim, at least not in  the Quranic sense.  It means he has not got the spirit of Islam.  A typical practicing Muslim must be violent, especially if he expects to get any reward in the in the Muslim heaven: 

"Let those who fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other.  Who fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward ... Hast thou not seen those unto whom it was said:  Withold your hands, establish worship and pay the poor-due, but when fighting was prescribed for them behold!  a party of them fear mankind even as their fear of Allah or with greater fear," (Surah 4:74,77 Picthall).""


The U.S. is in the beginning stages. Nigeria is in the latter stages.

[naliakbar]

The bible isn't about what we wish it is, though many treat it that way.
By the same token, the Quran isn't about what you wish it is. That's why there have been over 12,000 deadly terror attacks just since 9-11.

You talk about terror attacks since 9-11, I do hope you know that this is from both sides, like for instance the lies that got us fighting in iraq.  So if you want to think of terror you have to add the terrorism of America not only muslims.


You quoted from the various translations, didn't you pay attention in the translations and see that there was a difference in one of them?  According to Yusuf Ali, the word that the others translated as Friend he translated as friends and protectors doesn�t that tell you that there is something else that you should really know?

YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

MARRIAGE TO KAFIR is an entirely different thing. That allows the Muslim to get a foot in the door of a Christian community. Through marriage he gains CONTROL, unlike in friendships where there is mutual exchange

You claim that marriage to a woman of the book, is to get into the door of a Christian community, you have this wrong.  When I marry a woman I bring her to my home I don�t move into her house.  SO how can you think this is to get into the community to control them?

You quoted 4:34 did you not read what it is talking about?

004.034
YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

it is not to beat the wife when she is simply not obedient but where there is fear of ill conduct and disloyality so please don�t read one part of the verse and not the entire thing.

 
You quoted a hadith why didn�t you read the entire hadith? As you read Bukhari  72:715 you find the reason for the fighting was based on her wanting to go back to a previous husband and she also lied about him not being able to produce children.

Volume 7, Book 72, Number 715: Narrated 'Ikrima:
Rifa'a divorced his wife whereupon 'AbdurRahman bin Az-Zubair Al-Qurazi married her. 'Aisha said that the lady (came), wearing a green veil (and complained to her (Aisha) of her husband and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating). It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah's Apostle came, 'Aisha said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!" When 'AbdurRahman heard that his wife had gone to the Prophet, he came with his two sons from another wife. She said, "By Allah! I have done no wrong to him but he is impotent and is as useless to me as this," holding and showing the fringe of her garment, 'Abdur-Rahman said, "By Allah, O Allah's Apostle! She has told a lie! I am very strong and can satisfy her but she is disobedient and wants to go back to Rifa'a." Allah's Apostle said, to her, "If that is your intention, then know that it is unlawful for you to remarry Rifa'a unless Abdur-Rahman has had sexual intercourse with you." Then the Prophet saw two boys with 'Abdur-Rahman and asked (him), "Are these your sons?" On that 'AbdurRahman said, "Yes." The Prophet said, "You claim what you claim (i.e.. that he is impotent)? But by Allah, these boys resemble him as a crow resembles a crow,"

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/072.sbt.html
as for Muslim 2:2147 again read the entire context of the hadith yes he hit her no doubt but why did he hit her?

Book 004, Number 2127:
Muhammad b. Qais said (to the people): Should I not narrate to you (a hadith of the Holy Prophet) on my authority and on the authority of my mother? We thought that he meant the mother who had given him birth. He (Muhammad b. Qais) then reported that it was 'A'isha who had narrated this: Should I not narrate to you about myself and about the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him)? We said: Yes. She said: When it was my turn for Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) to spend the night with me, he turned his side, put on his mantle and took off his shoes and placed them near his feet, and spread the corner of his shawl on his bed and then lay down till he thought that I had gone to sleep. He took hold of his mantle slowly and put on the shoes slowly, and opened the door and went out and then closed it lightly. I covered my head, put on my veil and tightened my waist wrapper, and then went out following his steps till he reached Baqi'. He stood there and he stood for a long time. He then lifted his hands three times, and then returned and I also returned. He hastened his steps and I also hastened my steps. He ran and I too ran. He came (to the house) and I also came (to the house). I, however, preceded him and I entered (the house), and as I lay down in the bed, he (the Holy Prophet) entered the (house), and said: Why is it, O 'A'isha, that you are out of breath? I said: There is nothing. He said: Tell me or the Subtle and the Aware would inform me. I said: Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be ransom for you, and then I told him (the whole story). He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you? She said: Whatsoever the people conceal, Allah will know it. He said: Gabriel came to me when you saw me. He called me and he concealed it from you. I responded to his call, but I too concealed it from you (for he did not come to you), as you were not fully dressed. I thought that you had gone to sleep, and I did not like to awaken you, fearing that you may be frightened. He (Gabriel) said: Your Lord has commanded you to go to the inhabitants of Baqi' (to those lying in the graves) and beg pardon for them. I said: Messenger of Allah, how should I pray for them (How should I beg forgiveness for them)? He said: Say, Peace be upon the inhabitants of this city (graveyard) from among the Believers and the Muslims, and may Allah have mercy on those who have gone ahead of us, and those who come later on, and we shall, God willing, join you.

It is good that you quoted from some person that took the true word that shows something that we will see later�

The word translated as friend is auliya which translates to friends, protectors, helpers etc so it depends on what is ment here and that is like I said as protecting friend.  Because of the fact that I can marry a woman of the book am I to hate my father in law? That is stupid if you think that way.

The Arabic words have more meanings that the words we have in English.

Like for instance Iqra is a word that means to read, recite and when the verse was revealed to the prophet he thought it ment to read, to which he said he didn�t know to read, but then later realized it ment to recite.  So you cant just take the verse as one translator has it, this is why muslims are so particular of keeping the quran in Arabic because it keeps the original for us to go back to.

As for his claim that muslims came to the west to convert people, im sorry but when my one of my great grandmothers came to the west she was kidnapped so that she can work on the sugar cane fields in the Caribbean.   My ancestors came to the west because of the british rule in India at the time.  So what this person is saying is a bunch of crap stating that we came here just to convert people.  If you want to blame anyone go blame the brittish for me being here.

Any Muslim who is not violent (secretly or openly) is hardly a real Muslim, at least not in  the Quranic sense.

From what you quoted it says that no muslim can be a practicing muslim who does not hate Christians yet the quran says:

005.082
YUSUFALI: Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.

So from the quran we are told that Christians are the nearest in belief to muslims so from the quran the argument is just crap

As for sura 4:74-77 yes the best amonst the men of god would be those that lay their life down for god.  It is not an easy thing to pick up a sword and start fighting for the sake of god, to that is why god rewards it so much.

[Pete]

The bible isn't about what we wish it is, though many treat it that way.
By the same token, the Quran isn't about what you wish it is. That's why there have been over 12,000 deadly terror attacks just since 9-11.

You talk about terror attacks since 9-11, I do hope you know that this is from both sides, like for instance the lies that got us fighting in iraq.  So if you want to think of terror you have to add the terrorism of America not only muslims.

Again you pretend that the U.S. is the blame for 2 million slain in the Sudan. And then Nigeria. And then Islamic slaughter around the world.
The U.S. went into Iraq the first time, to defend the defenseless Kuwait, I might add much to Saudi Arabia's relief.
The second time was a REACTION to having been attacked by Islam.
A place where the same despot (Sadam) was still handing out $20,000 to the family of any "martyr" that blew himself up among Jews. But then we are limiting our discussion to our comparitive RELIGIONS and what their books prescribe, not U.S. politics or actions.

You quoted from the various translations, didn't you pay attention in the translations and see that there was a difference in one of them?  According to Yusuf Ali, the word that the others translated as Friend he translated as friends and protectors doesn�t that tell you that there is something else that you should really know?

YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

But why didn't you bold more? The part you bolded only gives you the WHY, of why you are prohibited from being friends with kafir. Here is the end of that verse: And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them.

For non-Muslims that are not as blind as our Muslim friend here, you can see that if a Muslim tells you he is your friend, he is either lying or is an Islamic apostate. Because if he DOES befriend you he becomes a kafir.
Most Quranic Muslims you meet will admit to the obvious message here, unless they are engaging in taqiyyah, or lying in the way of Allah.

MARRIAGE TO KAFIR is an entirely different thing. That allows the Muslim to get a foot in the door of a Christian community. Through marriage he gains CONTROL, unlike in friendships where there is mutual exchange

You claim that marriage to a woman of the book, is to get into the door of a Christian community, you have this wrong.  When I marry a woman I bring her to my home I don�t move into her house.  SO how can you think this is to get into the community to control them?

You quoted 4:34 did you not read what it is talking about?

004.034
YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

it is not to beat the wife when she is simply not obedient but where there is fear of ill conduct and disloyality so please don�t read one part of the verse and not the entire thing.

You can't even see that the husband is the sole judge of her conduct. That's why Islamic women say they are property. First of their parents, then of their brothers if there parents die, then of their husbands. All determining who they will marry etc. Remedy for conduct according to your holy book:
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/#women



DO YOU REALLY THINK IT'S GOD DRIVING THIS GUY TO OBEY HIS HOLY BOOK?

"Two million Muslim women beaten ..... in France!  So what goes on in the Arab world?  Total isolation."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouztv-tRPKM&NR=1

You quoted a hadith why didn�t you read the entire hadith? As you read Bukhari  72:715 you find the reason for the fighting was based on her wanting to go back to a previous husband and she also lied about him not being able to produce children.

Volume 7, Book 72, Number 715: Narrated 'Ikrima:
Rifa'a divorced his wife whereupon 'AbdurRahman bin Az-Zubair Al-Qurazi married her. 'Aisha said that the lady (came), wearing a green veil (and complained to her (Aisha) of her husband and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating). It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah's Apostle came, 'Aisha said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!" When 'AbdurRahman heard that his wife had gone to the Prophet, he came with his two sons from another wife. She said, "By Allah! I have done no wrong to him but he is impotent and is as useless to me as this," holding and showing the fringe of her garment, 'Abdur-Rahman said, "By Allah, O Allah's Apostle! She has told a lie! I am very strong and can satisfy her but she is disobedient and wants to go back to Rifa'a." Allah's Apostle said, to her, "If that is your intention, then know that it is unlawful for you to remarry Rifa'a unless Abdur-Rahman has had sexual intercourse with you." Then the Prophet saw two boys with 'Abdur-Rahman and asked (him), "Are these your sons?" On that 'AbdurRahman said, "Yes." The Prophet said, "You claim what you claim (i.e.. that he is impotent)? But by Allah, these boys resemble him as a crow resembles a crow,"

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/072.sbt.html
as for Muslim 2:2147 again read the entire context of the hadith yes he hit her no doubt but why did he hit her?

Book 004, Number 2127:
Muhammad b. Qais said (to the people): Should I not narrate to you (a hadith of the Holy Prophet) on my authority and on the authority of my mother? We thought that he meant the mother who had given him birth. He (Muhammad b. Qais) then reported that it was 'A'isha who had narrated this: Should I not narrate to you about myself and about the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him)? We said: Yes. She said: When it was my turn for Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) to spend the night with me, he turned his side, put on his mantle and took off his shoes and placed them near his feet, and spread the corner of his shawl on his bed and then lay down till he thought that I had gone to sleep. He took hold of his mantle slowly and put on the shoes slowly, and opened the door and went out and then closed it lightly. I covered my head, put on my veil and tightened my waist wrapper, and then went out following his steps till he reached Baqi'. He stood there and he stood for a long time. He then lifted his hands three times, and then returned and I also returned. He hastened his steps and I also hastened my steps. He ran and I too ran. He came (to the house) and I also came (to the house). I, however, preceded him and I entered (the house), and as I lay down in the bed, he (the Holy Prophet) entered the (house), and said: Why is it, O 'A'isha, that you are out of breath? I said: There is nothing. He said: Tell me or the Subtle and the Aware would inform me. I said: Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be ransom for you, and then I told him (the whole story). He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you? She said: Whatsoever the people conceal, Allah will know it. He said: Gabriel came to me when you saw me. He called me and he concealed it from you. I responded to his call, but I too concealed it from you (for he did not come to you), as you were not fully dressed. I thought that you had gone to sleep, and I did not like to awaken you, fearing that you may be frightened. He (Gabriel) said: Your Lord has commanded you to go to the inhabitants of Baqi' (to those lying in the graves) and beg pardon for them. I said: Messenger of Allah, how should I pray for them (How should I beg forgiveness for them)? He said: Say, Peace be upon the inhabitants of this city (graveyard) from among the Believers and the Muslims, and may Allah have mercy on those who have gone ahead of us, and those who come later on, and we shall, God willing, join you.

It is good that you quoted from some person that took the true word that shows something that we will see later�

The word translated as friend is auliya which translates to friends, protectors, helpers etc so it depends on what is ment here and that is like I said as protecting friend.  Because of the fact that I can marry a woman of the book am I to hate my father in law? That is stupid if you think that way.

The Arabic words have more meanings that the words we have in English.

Like for instance Iqra is a word that means to read, recite and when the verse was revealed to the prophet he thought it ment to read, to which he said he didn�t know to read, but then later realized it ment to recite.  So you cant just take the verse as one translator has it, this is why muslims are so particular of keeping the quran in Arabic because it keeps the original for us to go back to.

As for his claim that muslims came to the west to convert people, im sorry but when my one of my great grandmothers came to the west she was kidnapped so that she can work on the sugar cane fields in the Caribbean.   My ancestors came to the west because of the british rule in India at the time.  So what this person is saying is a bunch of crap stating that we came here just to convert people.  If you want to blame anyone go blame the brittish for me being here.

Any Muslim who is not violent (secretly or openly) is hardly a real Muslim, at least not in  the Quranic sense.

From what you quoted it says that no muslim can be a practicing muslim who does not hate Christians yet the quran says:

005.082
YUSUFALI: Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.

So from the quran we are told that Christians are the nearest in belief to muslims so from the quran the argument is just crap

As for sura 4:74-77 yes the best amonst the men of god would be those that lay their life down for god.  It is not an easy thing to pick up a sword and start fighting for the sake of god, to that is why god rewards it so much.

But as you know by the rules of abrogation nullify these verses found early in the Quran with about another 100+ verses that suggest violence that follow. You can even find a verse way back there that suggests "no compulsion in religion", but later "smite the unbelievers at the necks" for example.
The one of Islam even curses Christians and Jews.

Surah 9.30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the Son of God. That is a saying from their mouth; (In this) they but imitate what the Unbelievers of old used to say. God's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

Jesus can clean even the blackest of hearts.