Something I found that seemed interesting...

[randomfeats]

In Deuteronomy one can read:

Deu 13:4     Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

and you can also find many references within Leviticus where it says to fear god in the KJV Bible.

However, In 1John it seems to say we should denounce that fear:

1Jo 4:18       There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

I haven't spent a lot time dwelling on this, but I was curious as to what some others may think about it.

And also hello to everyone, I'm new around here.

[Peter]

The concept is still alive and well in the New Testament.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=fear+god&t=KJV&page=4
I love study with word and term searches like that.

It seems that the fear of God may have become somewhat lost in the Evangelical church and it may not be the better for it.
Try a couple videos with some old fashioned preaching by Paul Washer in the seekers section. Like this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cncEhCvrVgQ

[resistingrexmundi]

The fear spoken of in Deut. is the fear everybody SHOULD have. The fear of being seperated from God. To never feel his holy prescence and to be utterly lost. Which of course will happen without the salvation of Jesus. The fear in the latter verses is fear of God Himself we should avoid. We can trust Him in all things. Think of the most desperate time in your life when you thought you had nowhere to turn or noone to talk to. Even then God was their looking over you. But imagine that time for all eternity but amplified by the fact it is true. Perhaps then you can sparsly imagine hell. I hope this has been helpful.

God bless

[Cephyr13]

I think I may have a different take on the "fear of God". I have NO idea if I'm correct on this or not. lol  It's just my opinion.

I think it works like this:

- The unsaved should fear God, because they are still under His wrath
(John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.")

- Once someone is saved, there is no fear of God, for there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)

Here's my logic: God says the wisdom of the world is foolisness, and that only He has true wisdom and that only He can give us that wisdom. The only way to get wisdom from Him is to repent and be saved so that we are reconnected with Him so He can teach us His wisdom in relationship.

Why would a person want to ask forgiveness though? The only reason would be because they fear the consequences of what will happen if they do not ask forgiveness. And there is your 'fear of the Lord'. So, where does wisdom start:

Psalm 111:10
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

(So, the beginning of wisdom would only come if we first fear God and repent, at which point we're no longer under His wrath and He can teach us His wisdom.)

In my opinion, "fools" would be the unsaved that reject God's wisdom and instruction. How would a fool become fearful of God? It would only happen if the fool finally believed the truth, that God will have to send him to hell if he chooses not to spend enternity with God. Once a fool understans this, then there is a fear of God, and anyone with half a brain will choose to repent and accept God.

I think the "fear of the Lord" is for those whom are unsaved. Once we are saved, there is no more fear of condemnation and punishment in hell (in my opinion), because we are no longer under the law of sin and death, but under the law of grace (Romans 8:1-6). But we sure can fear a horrible life if we let sin enslave us again through being selfish and listening to our selfish desires rather than getting close to God. Sin is its own punishment, and that not of God, but of the devil.

[Peter]

The concept is still alive and well in the New Testament.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=fear+god&t=KJV&page=4
I love study with word and term searches like that.

It seems that the fear of God may have become somewhat lost in the Evangelical church and it may not be the better for it.
Try a couple videos with some old fashioned preaching by Paul Washer in the seekers section. Like this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cncEhCvrVgQ

Mic 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what [is] good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y60ZHm4oDdU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vR8IKx_S5RE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaF9GDANAb8
scroll to 4:30
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqNLMuijRyU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8pWtpOWQ-k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gf2tgsPantI

[Peter]

I think I may have a different take on the "fear of God". I have NO idea if I'm correct on this or not. lol  It's just my opinion.

I think it works like this:

- The unsaved should fear God, because they are still under His wrath

However there may be no shortage who believe themselves to be saved, that "live like the devil" as Paul Washer put it.
There is no shortage in the 20-1 century that have said the "sinner's prayer" (popularized in the 20th century church by Billy Graham) that have also been told at that moment that they are saved. Add to that an immature understanding of OSAS (once saved, always saved) and some believe they have a license to continue to engage in serial sin.

I always try to err on the safe side when it comes to things of God.
Perhaps a good healthy fear of God can help keep one more easily on the straight and narrow.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teLvofaVeEA

2Cr 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Speaking for myself, I consider my personal holiness to be somewhat short of being perfected, and it's pretty difficult for me to imagine being in a position to be able to report otherwise in the future.

[thespeaker]

Amen brothers and hello, I am a part of the "evangelical" church. Truthfully the fear of the Lord has left the church! I really believe many people will be caught unawares when our Lord returns! Someone asked me did i fear anything. The only thing that I fear in this life is living life outside of God which is not living at all. The way many "christians" live is proof that the fear of the Lord is absent. Now i had a fear of my dad, but i still loved him unconditionally. The fear that I have of God is this....I don't want to disappoint Him even though my best efforts are but filthy rags to Him. In my fear of Him I choose to be led by the spirit instead of being driven by the flesh. I continue to renew my mind to HIS word and His way so that i can continue to grow from glory to glory, and faith to faith!

[Peter]

Amen brothers and hello, I am a part of the "evangelical" church. Truthfully the fear of the Lord has left the church! I really believe many people will be caught unawares when our Lord returns! Someone asked me did i fear anything. The only thing that I fear in this life is living life outside of God which is not living at all. The way many "christians" live is proof that the fear of the Lord is absent. Now i had a fear of my dad, but i still loved him unconditionally. The fear that I have of God is this....I don't want to disappoint Him even though my best efforts are but filthy rags to Him. In my fear of Him I choose to be led by the spirit instead of being driven by the flesh. I continue to renew my mind to HIS word and His way so that i can continue to grow from glory to glory, and faith to faith!

Amen Speaker. And that's a great video by Paul Washer above to send to a friend that you think may need a little wake-up.
There is another great video to wake up young people that he did before the VCY (Voice of Christian Youth) for any young people that you know might be drifting toward the world, that may be able to use a good healthy jolt.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cncEhCvrVgQ

May God continue to richly bless you bro.

[Peter]

Amen brothers and hello, I am a part of the "evangelical" church. Truthfully the fear of the Lord has left the church! I really believe many people will be caught unawares when our Lord returns!

Particularly the young people that go to church and pretend the motions for their parents, but live for the world all week, figuring that when their parents get raptured they will have 7 years to straighten up and fly right. Imagine their surprise at the last trump. Lost forever.

I even thought that way in my 40s. I lived rightly, but I don't believe I was regenerate. I loved the world and my stuff. Figured if the true regenerates got raptured I would know I had 7 years to straighten up.

But then the question of our immediate mortality doesn't often occur to us - our own personal "last trump". Isn't that peculiar?

My 22 year old niece dropped dead of an aneurysm, in her room, in the middle of the day. Her mom simply discovered her there a little later. Blessedly she was one of the most regenerate young people I have even known. She was so sweet maybe the Lord was simply saving her from what we see happening to the world today.

 Someone asked me did i fear anything. The only thing that I fear in this life is living life outside of God which is not living at all. The way many "christians" live is proof that the fear of the Lord is absent. Now i had a fear of my dad, but i still loved him unconditionally. The fear that I have of God is this....I don't want to disappoint Him even though my best efforts are but filthy rags to Him. In my fear of Him I choose to be led by the spirit instead of being driven by the flesh. I continue to renew my mind to HIS word and His way so that i can continue to grow from glory to glory, and faith to faith!

[Cephyr13]

I think I may have a different take on the "fear of God". I have NO idea if I'm correct on this or not. lol  It's just my opinion.

I think it works like this:

- The unsaved should fear God, because they are still under His wrath

However there may be no shortage who believe themselves to be saved, that "live like the devil" as Paul Washer put it.
There is no shortage in the 20-1 century that have said the "sinner's prayer" (popularized in the 20th century church by Billy Graham) that have also been told at that moment that they are saved. Add to that an immature understanding of OSAS (once saved, always saved) and some believe they have a license to continue to engage in serial sin.

Yeah, I agree. The OSAS is very misunderstood. It is true that once a person is saved, they cannot lose it, but that's why Paul says not to use this freedom to go sin again, because you're just enslaving yourself to sin once again. You won't be condemned for it for eternity, but your life on earth will be hell because of it. In reality, a saved person does have a license to be a serial sinner if they so choose it. That's why Paul says, "For us, all things are permissible, but not all things are beneficial." One translation says, "For us, all things are lawful, but not all things edify." Since we are no longer under the law of sin and death, we are free to sin. But it's just not a good idea, because it hurts you and others and our witness about who God is, because we are representatives of Him.

I always try to err on the safe side when it comes to things of God.
Perhaps a good healthy fear of God can help keep one more easily on the straight and narrow.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teLvofaVeEA

2Cr 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Speaking for myself, I consider my personal holiness to be somewhat short of being perfected, and it's pretty difficult for me to imagine being in a position to be able to report otherwise in the future.

You said you err on the safe side when it comes to this stuff. I agree, because that's exactly what Paul presents in his letters to sinful churches. He basically said it's not for us to know if someone else is saved, so don't judge, because that's between them and God. Then he also says that a person should run the race with all their might so that they can "be assured of their salvation". What he's doing is saying that there are many out there who think they're saved, but are just fooling themselves. Those are the ones prophesied about who will come before Christ saying they did all kinds of things in His name, and He will say He never knew them. That is why we are told to err on the safe side and really strive with all we have to serve God in purity and try to be self-disciplined in God's ways to be more like Him. Because in doing so, if we are not saved, we will likely encounter Him and we'll choose to be saved at that point, where as if we had not pursued His ways, we may not have ever found His salvation and accepted it.

I don't even view my holienss as existant apart from God. I see myself as Paul stated, a wreched man, in whom there is no good. Even the best human on the planet sins a ton of times a day and doesn't even realize it. We are incapable of living apart from selfishness in this life in one form or another. For me to think I can accomplish something like holiness is sort of delusional. So I simply love and accept myself as I am, and strive daily to strengthen my relationship with God so that He will shape my heart to be more like His. And in doing so, the desire to sin falls away more and more each day. But I do this only out of respect and love for Him and because following His ways benefits my family and others. And I'm not saying you were saying you are holy or anything. Just explaining how I view my "holiness", or lack-there-of, I should say. The only reason I'm holy is because of what Jesus did for me and gave me. I can't improve upon that.

[Cephyr13]

The fear that I have of God is this....I don't want to disappoint Him even though my best efforts are but filthy rags to Him.

No one is a disappointment to God. If you have a son, look at your son and all he's done, good and bad, and ask yourself if you could ever see him as a disappointment. Now, most people will say, "I could never see my child as a disappointment, no matter how sinful they are or what awful things they might do." Those people understand God's unconditional love, and they don't even have the capacity to love that God has since God is love itself and the origin of all good deeds according to James. Therefore, if we, as imperfect humans can love our children unconditionally without ever being disappointed in them, then how much more can God love His children without ever an ounce of disappointment?

Also, consider this: God knows the future and absolutely everything everyone will choose and do. Knowing what we're going to do, He would not expect us to do something He knows we will not do. That's counter-intuitive. And for God to be disappointed in someone, God would first have to place expectations on that person, and then that person would have to not meet those expectations. God expects us to be sinners, because that's what we are - sinners by nature. Anything above that is overly joyful for God. Yes, He knows who will accept Jesus' salvation, but everytime it happens, it exceeds His expectations of our sinful nature. And so there is rejoicing in heaven, according to scripture, everytime a person is saved.

While we may feel or actually be disappointments to our human fathers, and while we may often relate our experiences with our human fathers to our relationship with God and who He is, God will never be disappointed in us, ever. Jesus has cleared away all of our sins, and so all possibility of disappointment drifted away with that act of redemption.

Does your church speak in tongues? Do you speak in tongues? You will really want to read Ellis Skolfield's book, Demons in the Church if you speak in tongues or are interested in the topic. It could be eye-opening. I found it very eye-opening and intriguing.

[Peter]

I think I may have a different take on the "fear of God". I have NO idea if I'm correct on this or not. lol  It's just my opinion.

I think it works like this:

- The unsaved should fear God, because they are still under His wrath

However there may be no shortage who believe themselves to be saved, that "live like the devil" as Paul Washer put it.
There is no shortage in the 20-1 century that have said the "sinner's prayer" (popularized in the 20th century church by Billy Graham) that have also been told at that moment that they are saved. Add to that an immature understanding of OSAS (once saved, always saved) and some believe they have a license to continue to engage in serial sin.

Yeah, I agree. The OSAS is very misunderstood. It is true that once a person is saved, they cannot lose it, but that's why Paul says not to use this freedom to go sin again, because you're just enslaving yourself to sin once again. You won't be condemned for it for eternity, but your life on earth will be hell because of it. In reality, a saved person does have a license to be a serial sinner if they so choose it.

Dangerous ground as you addressed somewhat later.
If a person engages in serial sin, I believe they need to carefully consider the question of their salvation and relationship with Jesus Christ.
I fear too many have been deceived into believing they are saved by simply paying lip service to God in an "alter call". My former pastor would even say "Congratulations, your name is written in the Lamb's book of life!" after the alter call, as if he could know either the condition of their hearts, or God's judgments. I don't think you or I believe that a person is saved simply because they said a sinner's prayer and show up in church once a week, but live like the devil the rest of the week.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZ_26AE0G_8

[Cephyr13]

Dangerous ground as you addressed somewhat later.
If a person engages in serial sin, I believe they need to carefully consider the question of their salvation and relationship with Jesus Christ.
I fear too many have been deceived into believing they are saved by simply paying lip service to God in an "alter call". My former pastor would even say "Congratulations, your name is written in the Lamb's book of life!" after the alter call, as if he could know either the condition of their hearts, or God's judgments. I don't think you or I believe that a person is saved simply because they said a sinner's prayer and show up in church once a week, but live like the devil the rest of the week.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZ_26AE0G_8

I totally agree. If someone engages in serial sin, they really need to examine their salvation experience and ask themself if they truly felt God come in and release all the chains of sin from their life and felt a complete change in their heart at the point of salvation. And if they're not sure, they need to strive with everything they have to "run the race" as Paul says to "ensure their salvation". Because if a person really strives to obey God, if they aren't yet saved, they will be shaping their heart more like His and He will get them to a point where they will accept Him and be saved. And if they are already saved, then it is just good for their soul and their witness. It's a win-win situation.

But they should never get this mindset of "doing" religious things to be "accepted" or "worthy" of God. That is where people get trapped in churches and religion, never realizing that they aren't required to "do" anything to be acceptable by God. They must simply be humble and accept that they are sinners and need salvation, then accept His free gift with open arms and an open heart.

I see two roadblocks to this: 1 - Parenting (because a person's father is from whom they get their concept of God and His love and acceptance) 2 - False representation of God by religion (both Christian and non-Christian religions)

I believe that if fathers were as Christ-like as possible in how they raised their children, and the child's "religious" education is sound about who God is and how He feels toward us, then children would easily accept God and be saved ane exhibit lives which are Christ-like, as well. And many parents simply do not understand how to raise children the right way nowadays, and the parents themselves are both immature and modelling it for their children. The parents who are not immature are disciplining their children in an incorrect manner which fosters a spirit of rebellion in their child instead of self-discipline and personal responsibility, which are the things of God. Immaturity (aka - selfishness) is a huge problem today, along with proper child-rearing.

In the end, though, I don't worry about if someone is or isn't going to be saved. God says He knows the future and He knows everyone's hearts and He makes all things work together for good for those whom are called according to His purpose. And finally, Jesus said that His sheep know His voice and come when they are called. In other words, God's got it worked out and He'll get all the people saved whom He knows will accept Him. And I am not even certain that people will end up in hell eternally either. God says it is His will that EVERYONE comes to repentance and a knowledge of God.

Therefore, if He truly wants everyone to get saved, and He gave us freewill to choose for ourselves, who's to say that the people in hell won't be given a chance to choose Him? The New Testament does say Jesus went back to those spirits in prison from Noah's time to make proclaimation to them. That means He told them He died for their sins and they likely accepted and were saved. If they got that chance, would He not give everyone else that same chance? He is no respector of persons, and so that would mean He would give the same treatment to all, regardless of their offenses.

The Bible appears to say that hell is final, but I am no expert on this, and so I am not sure what God's really going to do in the end. I get the feeling that if there is a way to get everyone saved, He'll do so. But because I cannot back it up scripturally, I just kind of hold on to it as a possibility, and assume that everyone who goes to hell will be stuck there for either eternity, or at least till the end of the age, whenver that is. And my belief of that is strictly from Jesus' parable about Lazarus and the rich man. Who knows? Anymore information on this would be appreciated, but this is not a real important issue. Just one of those obscure things which I am not sure we can know for certain before Christ returns.

[yonah33]

Yom Kippur - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Etymology · Observances · In the Torah · Mishnaic and Talmudic ...
Yom Kippur (Hebrew: יוֹם כִּפּוּר ‎, IPA: [ˈjom kiˈpur]), Yom Kippur (Hebrew: יוֹם כִּפּוּר or יום הכיפורים‎, IPA: [ˈjom kiˈpur]), also known as the Day of Atonement, is one of the holiest days of the year for the Jewish people. Its central themes are atonement and repentance. Jews traditionally observe this holy day with a 25-hour period of fasting and intensive prayer, often spending most of the day in synagogue services. Yom Kippur completes the annual period known in Judaism as the High Holy Days (or sometimes "the Days of Awe").  Yom Kippur is observed by many secular Jews who may not observe other holidays. Many secular Jews attend synagogue on Yom Kippur—for many secular Jews the High Holidays are the only recurring times of the year in which they attend synagogue,—causing synagogue attendance to soar, and almost two-thirds fast. Children under the age of 13 are not required to fast from sundown to sundown.

Yom Kippur is the tenth day of the month of Tishrei.
Leviticus 23:27,31 -

"Also the tenth day of this seventh month is the Day of Atonement; it shall be a holy [called] assembly, and you shall afflict yourselves [by fasting in penitence and humility] and present an offering made by fire to the Lord.......31You shall do no kind of work [on that day]. It is a statute forever" AMP

"Yom Kippur is a complete Sabbath; no work can be performed on that day. It is well-known that you are supposed to refrain from eating and drinking (even water) on Yom Kippur. It is a complete, 25-hour fast beginning before sunset on the evening before Yom Kippur and ending after nightfall on the day of Yom Kippur. The Talmud also specifies additional restrictions that are less well-known: washing and bathing, anointing one's body (with cosmetics, deodorants, etc.), wearing leather shoes (Orthodox Jews routinely wear canvas sneakers under their dress clothes on Yom Kippur), and engaging in sexual relations are all prohibited on Yom Kippur."

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/News.aspx/2537

Interesting that "christians" feel that this is just another day commanded by Yahweh that they can ignore by relegating it to the dustbin of secular and creepy Orthodox Judaism who fill the synagogues and treat it as the beginning of their "civil new year" the way paganized christians do around x-mas and football games. But the operative word is atone that the Jews feel that they can do by keeping some Law and some traditions and christians feel they can do if they only believe regardless of keeping some law and traditions. The reality is that the real atonement was done by Yasha Messiah, and so this day should be, it seems, as a lasting memorial to that ultimate atonement that he fulfilled.

[yonah33]

THE JEWS ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL

 THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL, which we are considering, is not the same as the House of Judah, of which the Jews were a small remnant only.

"The distinction we wish to emphasise is that, while some Jews are Israelites, all Israelites are not necessarily Jews. The House of Judah and some of the Jews are of Israel, that is descended, from Jacob. When the general blessings were at Jacob's death apportioned, the 'One Seed' Christ, the Messiah, was promised with the sovereignty to Judah; but the "multitude of nations," most of the spiritual gifts and all the temporal grandeur of the "birthright" were given to the House of Joseph or Ephraim exclusively. The House of Israel was to obtain these in the "latter days" or the Christian era - our days and when developed into a "company of Nations," cf. Imperial Conference of 1926.

The division of Israel took place under the rule of Rehoboam over Judah, Jeroboam over Israel, in 975 B.C. The House of Israel sinned through idolatry and were cast out of the land in 721 B.C. and did not return. The House of Judah also sinned and were punished and banished to Babylon for seventy years, and a remnant of them under Ezra and Nehemiah returned as "the Jews" in 536 B.C. The term "Jews" is never in the Bible applied to the Twelve Tribes or to the Ten-tribed House of Israel. These were to be divorced from the Mosaic law and lost to human history and knowledge, but known to God, re-covenanted in Christ, and to enjoy the Hebrew birthright in the isles of the seas, to be His national evangelists to the world, and the inheritors of the Kingdom of God taken away from the Jews and given to a Nation. It will be shown that the British enjoy all the unconditional promises given to the seed of Abraham in the Christian era and that therefore no other Nation can now replace them as Israel.

It was in 741 B.C. that Isaiah prophesied that "within three score and five years shall Ephraim be broken in pieces, that it be not a people." The final siege of Samaria and the deportation of Israel took place in 721 B.C. Subsequently in 676 B.C. Esar-Haddon completed the work begun and from this date the history of the house of Israel ceases in the Scriptures, and the tale is taken up by Prophecy.

Judah was carried captive to Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar in 603 B.C. and the Temple finally destroyed in 586 B.C. The word "Jew" is found for the first time in the Bible in II Kings 16:6, but the Second Book of Kings was not written till the return of Judah and Benjamin after the end of the Babylonian captivity.

 

CONTRAST BETWEEN ISRAEL AND JEWS

ISRAEL were to have a change of name (Isa. 65:15). The Jews were to be known by a change in physiognomy (Isa. 3:9).

ISRAEL were to be called by a new name (Isa. 62:2). The Jews have retained their old name unchanged.

ISRAEL were tobe named after Isaac, i.e. called Saxon (Gen. 21:12) The Jews' name was to be a curse to them (Isa. 65:15).

ISRAEL were to be blind to their identity (Rom. 11:25). The Jews still claim to be the chosen people.

ISRAEL were to be a multitudinous people (Hos. 1:10). The Jews were to be bereft of children (Jer. 15:7).

ISRAEL were to become known as the righteous Nation that keepeth the truth (Isa. 26:2). The Jews were to be a reproach and a proverb, a taunt and a curse (Jer. 24:9).

ISRAEL were to become a Nation and a Company of Nations (Gen. 35:11). The Jews were to be scattered in all the "kingdoms of the earth for their hurt" (Jer. 24:9).

ISRAEL were to make a new home in the Appointed Place - the Isles of the Sea (II Sam. 7:10 ; Isa. 24:15; Isa. 49:1; Jer. 31: 10, etc.). The Jews have been strangers in all lands (Jer. 15:4).

ISRAEL were to be a Nation for ever (Jer. 31:36). The Jewish nation was broken beyond repair in A.D. 70 (Dan. 9:24; Jer. 1 9: 11).

ISRAEL were to have a perpetual monarchy (Jer. 33:17). The Jews have no king on earth.

ISRAEL were to come under a new covenant (Jer. 31:33). The Jews have remained under the old law.

ISRAEL were to be called the sons of God, i.e. accept Christianity (Hos. 1:10). The Jews do not accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah.

ISRAEL were taken captive into Assyria, circa 721 B.C.. (II Kings 18:11, etc.). The Jews were taken captive to Babylon circa 603 B.C. (II Kings 24:1-14, etc., and 25:20, etc.).

ISRAEL were to be immune from defeat in war (Isa. 54:17, Lev. 26:6-8). The Jews have suffered endless persecution.

ISRAEL had nothing to do with the crucifixion, being at that time away beyond the Euphrates, beginning their migrations through Europe. The Jews cried, "Crucify him! crucify him!"

http://www.ensignmessage.com/archives/jews.html

(We ought to keep in mind that the ultimate target of muslimism is the great satan - the u.s. of a.)

[Cephyr13]

THE JEWS ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL

While much of what you said is very much correct, I disagree with the interpretation that Great Britain is Ephraim restored, and I disagree with the state of Israel being destroyed beyond repair in 70 AD, meaning that I believe the Jews were prophesied to come back into their own land again.

I think I'll let Peter take this one, though. I think if he lays out the three "time, times and half a time" prophecies for you, you'll see that they land right on important dates in both the Jew's history and America's history. America completely fulfills all of the prophecies of Ephraim. And I believe the Jews, right now, are just like Christians right now - we have Christians who think they're saved, and Christians whom are saved. I think we have Jews whom are saved and Jews whom are not save, but think they are. I think the Jews are under the Old Covenant and we are under the New Covenant. I think Messianic Jews are under the New Covenant as Christians are.

When you see the prophecies about this, I think you'll probably be convinced. You sound like a pretty well studied individual seeking the truth. Good luck.

[yonah33]

You sound like a pretty well studied individual seeking the truth. Good luck.

Well, I'm all doubled up with emotion. I'm no scholar, nor a writer, and don't disagree with Br Skolfield as there is nothing to disagree about. Connecting the dots with Islam, I believe is a major accomplishment, but it's focus is directed at Middle Eastern history, and there are simply some other things I've looked at, that at least in my mind, need reconciliation, and have for some time. To wit:

There is one thing about great writers....if they are wrong on a point they can write about it logically ad infinitum. It is the case I believe with the case of the Northern Tribes being dispersed in Babylonia, and then reunited with their ancestral relatives, which pretty much ignores the history of the rest of the world.  It is my understanding that when the Assyrians "captivated" the Northern Kingdom, rather than carting it off as did the Babylonians, they simply "seeded" their captives with their own population, and hence Samaria became a religious hodgepodge. Later the Assyrian empire(along with the Northern Kingdom captives) were dispersed by the Babylonians up thru Southern Russia and became the basis for populating much of Europe. When looking at a map of Europe we find many Old Testament names, along with the oldest city in Germany named for an Assyrian prince. And there is a long history connecting Germany with the Middle East. As for the rest of Europe, it being the foundation of Western Civilization in terms of political/religious philosophy - the basis goes right back to Israel and the Northern Tribes and the Roman Catholic adulterated mixture of pagan sun worship with the teachings of Yasha, that resulted in what we have inherited. And just as Jews have been repatriated - their  scattered tribal relatives, who have given them support - are also part of the regathering. The difference is they are not sure of their ancestral identities as are Jews. Just my 2 cents. Shalom out.

http://www.heraldmag.org/1998/98mj_2.htm
http://bibletoday.com/index.htm

[Cephyr13]

You said that Skolfield only focuses on the Middle East, and you said that Britain is Ephraim returned. I'm not sure which of Skolfield's books you have read, but Skolfield actually covers America and a tiny bit of what happened with the Ten Tribes whom were dispersed by the Assyrians. The invasion, as you stated, was in 721 BC, but the Ten Tribes were not fully taken away captive till 724 BC.

The Ten Tribes were referred to as "Israel" and also "Ephraim", being that Ephraim was the strongest tribe, and thus, the name by which they were called. There were many prophecies about Ephraim in the Old Testament which referred to her returning at some point in the future. Ephraim is said to tremble from the West (so they will be somewhere West of Israel, possibly the far West), and they are said to be planted in a pleasant place with resources, guarded by waters. America is as far West as any nation really can be by our maps, and we are a nation founded by Christians who set out to create a nation under God and used the Old Testament Law as the basis for our laws and Constitution. In fact, if you read about the Pilgrims who came to America to settle here, their journals say that God told them to come to America. They were part of the Protestant movement to escape Catholic persecution, so they could be free to serve their God without fear of persecution. America seems to be a good fit, but we need to solidify this with a more definite prophecy.

Keep those things in mind as I lay out the next few prophecies.

Time, Times and Half a Time

The Time, Times and Half a Time prophecies are key to understanding who Ephraim is. When Jews translate the Old Testament “time, times and half a time”, they translate it to say two-and-a-half times, because they know what their sayings mean, where as other people don’t generally understand Old Jewish sayings. When they say, “Once, yeah twice”, it means 2 times, not 1 + 2 like pre-tribbers think it means. Therefore, time, times and half a time means 1 + 1 + ½ = 2.5 times.

We need to know what “time” means. Jews would not know the meaning of “time” because they don’t have the New Testament. 2 Peter 3:8 says a day with the Lord is like a thousand years and a thousand years like a day (paraphrased). The word “day” there is “hemera” in the Koine Greek. It actually means “time”. It can be translated as “day”, but when used like this, it means a time period, like “in the day of Moses”, talking about the time period of Moses’ life. It does not mean a 24 hour day. Hemera, in the New Testament, is usually translated as “time”. So, the verse is supposed to say, “A time with the Lord is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a time.” If you read those verses, Peter is talking about Jesus’ coming and telling the people to be patient because it will be a long time. So, this is prophetic in nature, and it’s interpreting what “time” means in prophecy, but people just don’t catch that.

Therefore, time, times and half a time is 1000 + 1000 + 500 = 2500 years.

The Jews have their time, times and half a time prophecies in Daniel. One was given on 552 BC. The other was given in 533 BC. So, we add 2500 years to them:

-552 BC + 2500 years = 1948 AD (when Israel becomes a nation again)
-533 BC + 2500 years = 1967 AD (when Israel gets Jerusalem and their temple mount back again in the Six Day War)

So, both prophecies are about Israel regaining their promised land, but in two stages.

The prophecy to Christians in revelation says the woman Israel is taken away to a place of safety for time, times and half a time (paraphrased). Since Israel was the name the Ten Tribes went by, we need to see when they vanished from the earth. We know that happened in 724 BC (keep in mind that all BC dates are subject to a 1-3 year ambiguity, so we’re not always clear exactly on when an event happened in the BC era, because it’s hard to pin-point it exactly. You said 721 BC, others say 724 BC, in reference to the dispersion of the Ten Tribes or the Assyrian invasion. Skolfield uses the most agreed upon dates by historians, and that date was 724 BC.

In 724 BC, the last of the Ten Tribes were taken captive by the Assyrians and they were ejected into the Caucus Mountains. This is where the term Caucasian comes from, because the Ten Tribes spread out from there into Europe, where the majority of the white population of the world came from. Some migrated south to Africa, because we come across tribes who know about Yahweh and the ten commandments even before civilization touched them. But most of the Ten Tribes ended up in Europe. That is where the Christian movement ended up primarily going - Europe. And that is where the initial Americans came from.  So, let’s do the prophetic math:

724 BC + 2500 years = 1776 AD, the year the United States became a nation.

The United States fulfills all of the prophecies where as Great Britain fails to fulfill the 2500 year prophecy.

The United States is Ephraim returned.

I am not sure which of Skolfield’s books you have read, but The False Prophet explains these prophecies in detail. I’ve given a VERY rushed explanation. I apologize for that.

Also, let me point out that in Revelation 11, the Two Witnesses are the two lamp stands and the two olive trees before the thrown of God. Revelation 1:20 says lamp stands are churches, and Paul, in Romans, says that the Christians are the wild olive tree and Jews are the native alive tree. Therefore, the two lamp stands and the two olive trees are the Jewish Church and the Christian church. That’s fitting since the time, times and half a time prophecies refer to both the Jewish nation and the Christian nation.

Hope this helps!

[yonah33]

Well, I didn't say that Britain was the 10 tribes or Ephriam- I was quoting from another site. that's why the link. And I said the Skolfield's book was focused on Middle East history. I said nothing about exclusiveness.

[Cephyr13]

Well, I didn't say that Britain was the 10 tribes or Ephriam- I was quoting from another site. that's why the link. And I said the Skolfield's book was focused on Middle East history. I said nothing about exclusiveness.

Oh, I apologize. I must have misread or misunderstood something you stated in your post.