Meaing of jihad

[SalahDinThe2nD]

There has been a lot of talk about Jihad and its relation to terrorism, especially since 9/11/2001. In this topic, I hope I'll be able to give an overall view of what Jihad is and how related is it to terrorism.

Definition: Jihad, the Arabic word Jihad literally translates to struggle, be that with oneself or an external factor.

In Islam, the word means both self-struggling to achieve perfection, which was termed by the Prophet of Islam Mohammad (PBUH) as the greater struggle -much harder than war that is, and the second meaning is struggling against an enemy. Self-struggle is greater than war because at war, all you need to do is have heart for a few days or even months, and everything would be over one way or the other. Self-struggle on the other hand requires life-long struggle with oneself to do what is right, and is what organizes even the war Jihad as we will see later.

The term "Holy War" is un-Islamic. It was mainly coined by Christians back during the crusades. In Islam though, there are no holy or unholy wars. There's simply a justified war and an unjustified war.

Unlike the way people now look at things, Islam doesn't view the world as countries. There are 2 types of land in Islam; Moslem land and non-Moslem land. In Islam, if a Moslem land is under attack, then it is considered an attack on the entire Moslem land, and requires action from the entire Moslem nation, regardless of which country is being attacked.

Types of Jihad:

Other than self-struggle, Jihad has 2 types; Jihad for calling and Jihad for defense.

Defensive Jihad is easily understandable in our day. It's a simple concept; if a Moslem land is attacked, the entire Moslem nation should rise to defend the Moslems in the attacked land until the surrender or defeat of the attacking enemy. Plain and simple.

A Moslem is required to deliver the message of Allah (SWT) to the whole of mankind. Mohammad (PBUH) was God's final messenger, and therefore every Moslem till the day of judgment is obliged to deliver the message to those who don't know it. What they do with it after they have received it is their own business, but they must know it so that they can enjoin the right path or at least have no excuse of not hearing about it when they stand in front of Allah (SWT) individually and are asked why they didn't believe in Him.

Prior tothe last century or 2, preaching Islam in a non-Moslem nation was fully forbidden by any and all rulers of non-Moslem countries -same for any other religion that doesn't comply with the ruler's own. Of course, this poses a problem when it comes to people receiving the message of Islam. Therefore, there was the Jihad of calling -or Jihad of preaching- where Moslems were to open a country, preach Islam to the people and then let them do what they want with what they've heard afterwards.

In my -and most Islamic leaders now- opinion, this type of Jihad is no longer needed, because Moslems can now deliver the message of Allah (SWT) without need for war. In fact, 9/11 -being an inside job as we all now know and all- has opened a huge door for people to understand Islam better; those who want to anyway. But now there is no excuse for anyone to say "I didn't know a religion called Islam existed". Tens of thousands of people started knowing about Islam since 2001 because it was advertised -wrongly as it may be- that this was an Islamic deed, and have embraced Islam ever since.

[resistingrexmundi]

Definition: Jihad, the Arabic word Jihad literally translates to struggle, be that with oneself or an external factor.

Sorry but the translator of the "Noble" koran gives a fuller and better explanation of jihad. One that encapsulates all of it's "nuances".

Noble Qur'an:2:190 Footnote: "Jihad is holy fighting in Allah's Cause with full force of numbers and weaponry. It is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars. By Jihad Islam is established, Allah's Word is made superior (which means only Allah has the right to be worshiped), and Islam is propagated. By abandoning Jihad Islam is destroyed and Muslims fall into an inferior position; their honor is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim. He who tries to escape from this duty, or does not fulfill this duty, dies as a hypocrite."


We have all heard this same misrepresentation of jihad up here before. The main flaw in your argument is that Muhammad taught his followers to fight. LITERALLY.

The term "Holy War" is un-Islamic. It was mainly coined by Christians back during the crusades. In Islam though, there are no holy or unholy wars. There's simply a justified war and an unjustified war.

Again the Islamic clerics disagree with you.

The world considers war, whenever it is for the sake of defense to be holy. If it is in self-defense, it is holy. If it is for the defense of one's nation, it is more holy, for the cause has grown from a personal one to a national one, and the individual is not simply defending himself but is also defending the other individuals that make up his society. And if the defense shifts from a national to a humanitarian cause, it again becomes a degree more holy.  by Ayatullah Morteza Mutahhari

The connotations can't be missed when a new terrorist attack is made everyday. As far as justified and unjustified go it all depends on what is justification for violence. for Muhammad simply being rejected as a prophet or being insulted was enough to spur him to murder.

Unlike the way people now look at things, Islam doesn't view the world as countries. There are 2 types of land in Islam; Moslem land and non-Moslem land. In Islam, if a Moslem land is under attack, then it is considered an attack on the entire Moslem land, and requires action from the entire Moslem nation, regardless of which country is being attacked

We all know about the "house of peace" and "house of war" view that Islam holds. It makes it that much more disturbing. And I must commend you for telling half the truth. It is true that muslims are always ready to attack people they think are encroaching on muslim land. The propblem is that they are convinced that the land of Israel is thiers. It is not. Even the koran admits God promised it to Isaac and his descendants.

A Moslem is required to deliver the message of Allah (SWT) to the whole of mankind. Mohammad (PBUH) was God's final messenger, and therefore every Moslem till the day of judgment is obliged to deliver the message to those who don't know it. What they do with it after they have received it is their own business, but they must know it so that they can enjoin the right path or at least have no excuse of not hearing about it when they stand in front of Allah (SWT) individually and are asked why they didn't believe in Him.

Either you are practicing taqiyyah or are just not that well read on the koran. It states emphatically that non-muslims are to be subdued until their is no more unbelief and for those who don't accept Islam they must die.

Prior tothe last century or 2, preaching Islam in a non-Moslem nation was fully forbidden by any and all rulers of non-Moslem countries -same for any other religion that doesn't comply with the ruler's own. Of course, this poses a problem when it comes to people receiving the message of Islam. Therefore, there was the Jihad of calling -or Jihad of preaching- where Moslems were to open a country, preach Islam to the people and then let them do what they want with what they've heard afterwards.

Are you aware of how muslims try to open a country to Islam?
 
if such a regime sets itself up as a barrier to the call of truth (Islam), is it permissible to fight against it until it falls and the barrier against the call broken down, or is this not permissible? 
Yes, this is also permissible. This would be for the cause of defense. This would be one of those jihads, the actual nature of which is defense.  by Ayatullah Morteza Mutahhari

So in other words. If I don't like Islam and decide to keep it out of my country, which is my right as a leader, then muslims have the right to fight me and my forces until I submit. And this is a defensive war how? Islam can only maintain the illusion that it is a religion of peace by redefining words that westerners take for granted as self explanatory.

In my -and most Islamic leaders now- opinion, this type of Jihad is no longer needed, because Moslems can now deliver the message of Allah (SWT) without need for war. In fact, 9/11 -being an inside job as we all now know and all- has opened a huge door for people to understand Islam better; those who want to anyway. But now there is no excuse for anyone to say "I didn't know a religion called Islam existed". Tens of thousands of people started knowing about Islam since 2001 because it was advertised -wrongly as it may be- that this was an Islamic deed, and have embraced Islam ever since.

So your contention is that the 9/11 attacks were ultimately good because it opened the door for Islam. While you may believe such an attack to be a misrepresentation of Islam Muhammad would have disagreed with you. Furthermore their is no evidence that this is an inside job. In fact al-quada took credit for it. You should tell the families of those muslim "martyrs" that they were not really muslim. Those who choose not to fight were counted among the unbelievers. And we all know what fate Islam has in store for them.

In Islam, the word means both self-struggling to achieve perfection, which was termed by the Prophet of Islam Mohammad (PBUH) as the greater struggle -much harder than war that is, and the second meaning is struggling against an enemy. Self-struggle is greater than war because at war, all you need to do is have heart for a few days or even months, and everything would be over one way or the other. Self-struggle on the other hand requires life-long struggle with oneself to do what is right, and is what organizes even the war Jihad as we will see later.

If Muhammad really considered fighting to be the "lesser" jihad then why is so much of the koran centered on the jihad of violence. More to the point I believe Muhammad probably did have a harder time convincing the muslims that their inner struggle was the core of Islam when anyone with eyes and a brain can see the truth of its' violent teachings.


Qur'an:9:88 "The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in Allah's Cause."

Can someone use wealth and their lives to struggle inwardly?


Qur'an:9:5 "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."

Hard to kill the unbelievers if your struggle is inward.


Qur'an:9:112 "The Believers fight in Allah's Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed."

Do we kill or slay inwardly? And if so can we in turn be killed or slain inwardly?


Qur'an:9:29 "Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission."

Hard to imagine a moral struggle paying a tax to anyone.


Qur'an:8:39 "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah."

All who? Your emotions? Your thoughts?


Qur'an:8:39 "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)."

So an inward struggle can somehow cause others to submit to the religion of Allah. Huh...and here I thought it required real action.

You get the picture. I hope. The rest of these verses show, as the ones above do, that Islam is not peaceful in the least. Anyone who has told you that is either deluded, ignorant, lying or insane.

Qur'an:9:14 "Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, lay them low, and cover them with shame. He will help you over them."

Qur'an:8:65 "O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding."

Qur'an:9:38 "Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth and fight in Allah's Cause you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you go forth, He will afflict and punish you with a painful doom, and put others in your place."

Qur'an:9:123 "Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you."

Qur'an:8:72 "Those who accepted Islam and left their homes to fight in Allah's Cause with their possessions and persons, and those who gave (them) asylum, aid, and shelter, those who harbored them - these are allies of one another. You are not responsible for protecting those who embraced Islam but did not leave their homes [to fight] until they do so." [Another translation reads:] "You are only called to protect Muslims who fight."

Qur'an:8:73 "The unbelieving infidels are allies. Unless you (Muslims) aid each other (fighting as one united block to make Allah's religion victorious), there will be confusion and mischief. Those who accepted Islam, left their homes to fight in Allah's Cause (al-Jihad), as well as those who give them asylum, shelter, and aid - these are (all) Believers: for them is pardon and bountiful provision (in Paradise)."

Qur'an:48:16 "Say (Muhammad) to the wandering desert Arabs who lagged behind: 'You shall be invited to fight against a people given to war with mighty prowess. You shall fight them until they surrender and submit. If you obey, Allah will grant you a reward, but if you turn back, as you did before, He will punish you with a grievous torture."

Qur'an:48:22 "If the unbelieving infidels fight against you, they will retreat. (Such has been) the practice (approved) of Allah in the past: no change will you find in the ways of Allah."

Qur'an:47:4 "When you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah's Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam."

Qur'an:47:31 "And We shall try you until We know those among you who are the fighters."

Qur'an:9:19 "Do you make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Mosque, equal to those who fight in the Cause of Allah? They are not comparable in the sight of Allah. Those who believe, and left their homes, striving with might, fighting in Allah's Cause with their goods and their lives, have the highest rank in the sight of Allah."

Qur'an:5:94 "Believers, Allah will make a test for you in the form of a little game in which you reach out for your lances. Any who fails this test will have a grievous punishment."

Qur'an:2:193 "Fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief) and religion is only for Allah. But if they cease/desist, let there be no hostility except against infidel disbelievers."

Qur'an:2:217 "They question you concerning fighting in the sacred month. Say: 'Fighting therein is a grave (matter); but to prevent access to Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, to expel its members, and polytheism are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they make you renegades from your religion. If any of you turn back and die in unbelief, your works will be lost and you will go to Hell. Surely those who believe and leave their homes to fight in Allah's Cause have the hope of Allah's mercy."

Qur'an:2:244 "Fight in Allah's Cause, and know that Allah hears and knows all."

Qur'an:2:246 "He said: 'Would you refrain from fighting if fighting were prescribed for you?' They said: 'How could we refuse to fight in Allah's Cause?'"

Qur'an:61:2 "O Muslims, why say one thing and do another? Grievously odious and hateful is it in the sight of Allah that you say that which you do not. Truly Allah loves those who fight in His Cause in a battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure."

Qur'an:3:146 "How many prophets fought in Allah's Cause? With them (fought) myriads of godly men who were slain. They never lost heart if they met with disaster in Allah's Cause, nor did they weaken nor give in. Allah loves those who are firm and steadfast [warriors]."

Qur'an:3:153 "Behold! You ran off precipitately, climbing up the high hill without even casting a side glance at anyone, while the Messenger in your rear is calling you from your rear, urging you to fight. Allah gave you one distress after another by way of requital, to teach you not to grieve for the booty that had escaped you and for (the ill) that had befallen you."

Qur'an:3:154 "Say: 'Even if you had remained in your houses, those ordained to be slaughtered would have gone forth to the places where they were to slain."

Qur'an:61:4 "Surely Allah loves those who fight in His Cause."

 Qur'an:61:11 "Believers, shall I lead you to a bargain or trade that will save you from a painful torment? That you believe in Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad), and that you strive and fight in Allah's Cause with your property and your lives: That will be best for you!"

 Qur'an 61:12 "He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens under which rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Eden: that is indeed the Supreme Achievement. And another (favor) which you love: help from Allah for a speedy victory over your enemies."

Qur'an:8:5 "Your Lord ordered you out of your homes to fight for the true cause, even though some Muslims disliked it, and were averse (to fighting)."

Qur'an:24:53 "They swear their strongest oaths saying that if only you would command them. They would leave their homes (and go forth fighting in Allah's Cause). Say: 'Swear not; Obedience is (more) reasonable.'"

Qur'an:4:74 "Let those who fight in Allah's Cause sell this world's life for the hereafter. To him who fights in Allah's Cause, whether he is slain or victorious, We shall give him a reward."

Qur'an:4:75 "What reason have you that you should not fight in Allah's Cause?" [Another translation says:] "What is wrong with you that you do not fight for Allah?"

Qur'an:4:76 "Those who believe fight in the Cause of Allah."

Qur'an:4:77 "Have you not seen those to whom it was said: Withhold from fighting, perform the prayer and pay the zakat. But when orders for fighting were issued, a party of them feared men as they ought to have feared Allah. They say: 'Our Lord, why have You ordained fighting for us, why have You made war compulsory?'"

Qur'an:4:78 "Wherever you are, death will find you, even if you are in towers strong and high! So what is wrong with these people, that they fail to understand these simple words?"

Qur'an:4:84 "Then fight (Muhammad) in Allah's Cause. Incite the believers to fight with you."

Qur'an:4:94 "Believers, when you go abroad to fight wars in Allah's Cause, investigate carefully, and say not to anyone who greets you: 'You are not a believer!' Coveting the chance profits of this life (so that you may despoil him). With Allah are plenteous spoils and booty."

Qur'an:4:95 "Not equal are believers who sit home and receive no hurt and those who fight in Allah's Cause with their wealth and lives. Allah has granted a grade higher to those who fight with their possessions and bodies to those who sit home. Those who fight He has distinguished with a special reward."

Qur'an:4:100 "He who leaves his home in Allah's Cause finds abundant resources and many a refuge. Should he die as a refugee for Allah and His Messenger His reward becomes due and sure with Allah. When you travel through the earth there is no blame on you if you curtail your worship for fear unbelievers may attack you. In truth the disbelievers are your enemy."

Qur'an:4:102 "When you (Prophet) lead them in prayer, let some stand with you, taking their arms with them. When they finish their prostrations, let them take positions in the rear. And let others who have not yet prayed come - taking all precaution, and bearing arms. The Infidels wish, if you were negligent of your arms, to assault you in a rush. But there is no blame on you if you put away your arms because of the inconvenience of rain or because you are ill; but take precaution. For the Unbelieving Infidels Allah hath prepared a humiliating punishment."

Qur'an:4:104 "And do not relent in pursuing the enemy."

Qur'an:2:216 "Jihad (holy fighting in Allah's Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims), though you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and like a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows, and you know not." [Another translation reads:] "Warfare is ordained for you."

Qur'an:4:95 "Not equal are those believers who sit at home and receive no injurious hurt, and those who strive hard, fighting Jihad in Allah's Cause with their wealth and lives. Allah has granted a rank higher to those who strive hard, fighting Jihad with their wealth and bodies to those who sit (at home). Unto each has Allah promised good, but He prefers Jihadists who strive hard and fight above those who sit home. He has distinguished his fighters with a huge reward."

Qur'an:33:22 "Among the Believers are men who have been true to their covenant with Allah and have gone out for Jihad (holy fighting). Some have completed their vow to extreme and have been martyred fighting and dying in His Cause, and some are waiting, prepared for death in battle."

Qur'an:9:111 "Allah has purchased the believers, their lives and their goods. For them (in return) is the Garden (of Paradise). They fight in Allah's Cause, and they slay and are slain; they kill and are killed."

Qur'an:47:4 "So, when you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah's Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam."

Qur'an:9:91 "There is no blame on those who are old, weak, ill, or who find no resources to spend (on Jihad, holy fighting), if they are sincere (in duty) to Allah and His Messenger."

Qur'an:9:122 "It is not proper for the Believers to all go forth together to fight Jihad. A troop from every expedition should remain behind when others go to war."

Qur'an:047.033 "Believers, obey Allah, and obey the Messenger! Those who disbelieve and hinder men from the Cause of Allah, He will not pardon. Do not falter; become faint-hearted, or weak-kneed, crying for peace. You have the upper hand."

[Peter]

Therefore, there was the Jihad of calling -or Jihad of preaching- where Moslems were to open a country, preach Islam to the people and then let them do what they want with what they've heard afterwards.

Of course until Muslims reach a population wherein they can begin the murder and mayhem. Then it's Islam or else.

In my -and most Islamic leaders now- opinion, this type of Jihad is no longer needed, because Moslems can now deliver the message of Allah (SWT) without need for war. In fact, 9/11 -being an inside job as we all now know and all- has opened a huge door for people to understand Islam better; those who want to anyway.

You are apparently in pretty thin company with your nonsense with over 14,000 deadly Islamic terror attacks around the world, just since 9-11.
But then we know the real story. Guys like you sit around peddling taqiyyah, while your fundamentalist bros do the heavy lifting of the murder of innocents.

But now there is no excuse for anyone to say "I didn't know a religion called Islam existed". Tens of thousands of people started knowing about Islam since 2001 because it was advertised -wrongly as it may be- that this was an Islamic deed, and have embraced Islam ever since.

The fact is that jihad is the imperialistic conquest of non-Muslims by Muslims until they are subdued and enslaved by the jizya tax. Stealing their property and their wives and children as sex slaves.
The First Islamic Jihad raped, pillaged and plundered it's way to Tours France and Vienna Austria. Ah but you have to pretend that was somehow a defensive struggle".

I always find stunning the extent of self-delusion folks accomplish. And for what? To assure yourself a spot on the path to perdition, behind your false prophet.

[Peter]

Prior tothe last century or 2, preaching Islam in a non-Moslem nation was fully forbidden by any and all rulers of non-Moslem countries -same for any other religion that doesn't comply with the ruler's own.

You are going to have to support this claim.

Are Christian materials and bibles banned in Islamic countries. Yes.
You keep getting things backwards. But then that's the nature of Ilsam. The inverse. The exact opposite.

[SalahDinThe2nD]

First jihad is mean struggle not holy war as you claim .

holy war was started by christian not muslims , we don't have any holy war .

Quran forbide killing of other .

[Peter]

First jihad is mean struggle not holy war as you claim .

holy war was started by christian.....

Any imperialistic conquest as if it were in God's service was a Roman Church concept, not Christian.
Here is how we know it wasn't Christian:

Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

John 13:35 By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

...... not muslims , we don't have any holy war .

Quran forbide killing of other .

The bloody history of Islamic Jihad proves you a liar. The Quran proves it too

Sura 8:12 I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them

Surah 9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.'"

See how your mind has been broken, my friend?
The spirit of antichrist has inverted your reality. What is evil you believe to be good and what is good you believe to be evil. Satan has removed your ability to discern right from wrong. Following the father of lies, you are stuck lying to defend Mohammed's lies. Look at the silly source links you desperately provide in another thread. You have to search out lies written by nobodies in an effort to reinforce the mind full of Mohammedan lies you hold.

The irrefutable, historical and Quranic reality is that Islam has been at war against the non-Islamic world for 1400 years.

[resistingrexmundi]

First jihad is mean struggle not holy war as you claim .

holy war was started by christian not muslims , we don't have any holy war .

So you would disagree with the Translators of the Noble Qur'an,  Dr. Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din al-Hilali and Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan. Two of the most respected Islamic scholars in Islam and Ayatullah Morteza Mutahhari a well respected Islamic cleric. Hmmm. I wonder whose word we should consider more valid?

Noble Qur'an:2:190 Footnote: "Jihad is holy fighting in Allah's Cause with full force of numbers and weaponry. It is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars. By Jihad Islam is established, Allah's Word is made superior (which means only Allah has the right to be worshiped), and Islam is propagated. By abandoning Jihad Islam is destroyed and Muslims fall into an inferior position; their honor is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim. He who tries to escape from this duty, or does not fulfill this duty, dies as a hypocrite."
The world considers war, whenever it is for the sake of defense to be holy. If it is in self-defense, it is holy. If it is for the defense of one's nation, it is more holy, for the cause has grown from a personal one to a national one, and the individual is not simply defending himself but is also defending the other individuals that make up his society. And if the defense shifts from a national to a humanitarian cause, it again becomes a degree more holy.  by Ayatullah Morteza Mutahhari

[SalahDinThe2nD]

 it is holy struggle but holy struggle is different  than holy war this name came from the crusaders not muslims .

[resistingrexmundi]

Then why do the Islamic scholars and clerics disagree with you? Perhaps you should e-mail them and straighten them out on jihad.

[Peter]

it is holy struggle but holy struggle is different  than holy war this name came from the crusaders not muslims .

Repeating a proven lie doesn't make it more true, but makes you more of a liar.
But then who made you a liar?

1John 5:10  He that BELIEVETH ON THE SON OF GOD hath the witness in himself: HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT GOD HATH MADE HIM A LIAR; because HE BELIEVED NOT THE RECORD that God gave OF HIS SON.

Please answer the post at the below link. It's your thread. You don't have the option of ignoring posts:
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=828.msg3276#msg3276

[SalahDinThe2nD]

as you said [

So you would disagree with the Translators of the Noble Qur'an,  Dr. Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din al-Hilali and Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan. Two of the most respected Islamic scholars in Islam and Ayatullah Morteza Mutahhari a well respected Islamic cleric. Hmmm. I wonder whose word we should consider more valid?

Noble Qur'an:2:190 Footnote: "Jihad is holy fighting in Allah's Cause with full force of numbers and weaponry. It is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars. By Jihad Islam is established, Allah's Word is made superior (which means only Allah has the right to be worshiped), and Islam is propagated. By abandoning Jihad Islam is destroyed and Muslims fall into an inferior position; their honor is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim. He who tries to escape from this duty, or does not fulfill this duty, dies as a hypocrite."
The world considers war, whenever it is for the sake of defense to be holy. If it is in self-defense, it is holy. If it is for the defense of one's nation, it is more holy, for the cause has grown from a personal one to a national one, and the individual is not simply defending himself but is also defending the other individuals that make up his society. And if the defense shifts from a national to a humanitarian cause, it again becomes a degree more holy.  by Ayatullah Morteza Mutahhar

as you quoted it mean self defence not holy war

[resistingrexmundi]

as you quoted it mean self defence not holy war

Perhaps you only read every other word. So let me help you.

Noble Qur'an:2:190 Footnote: "Jihad is holy fighting in Allah's Cause with full force of numbers and weaponry. It is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars. By Jihad Islam is established, Allah's Word is made superior (which means only Allah has the right to be worshiped), and Islam is propagated. By abandoning Jihad Islam is destroyed and Muslims fall into an inferior position; their honor is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim. He who tries to escape from this duty, or does not fulfill this duty, dies as a hypocrite."
The world considers war, whenever it is for the sake of defense to be holy. If it is in self-defense, it is holy. If it is for the defense of one's nation, it is more holy, for the cause has grown from a personal one to a national one, and the individual is not simply defending himself but is also defending the other individuals that make up his society. And if the defense shifts from a national to a humanitarian cause, it again becomes a degree more holy.  by Ayatullah Morteza Mutahhar

But to address you ill informed claim of it being self defence perhaps I should share with you what Ayatullah Morteza Mutahhar considers self defence.



"The People of the Book are not Muslims, so we are allowed to fight them. We are allowed to fight the non-Muslims until we subdue them...Thinking in these terms will mean that we believe that the Quran does not recognize any faith in God or in the resurrection other than the faith of the Muslims...It may be that the mazlum, the wronged, the  ppressed, are not aware of the nature of the injustice and have not sought for help, but in fact there is no need for them to request it...Now, if a barrier arises against our calls, like some power, say, presenting itself as an obstacle, denying us permission, saying that we will impair the mind of its nation - and we know that most governments consider as impairing all thinking which may encourage the people to revolt against them - if such a regime sets itself up as a barrier to the call of truth, is it permissible to fight against it until it falls and the barrier against the call broken down, or is this not permissible? 

Yes, this is also permissible. This would be for the cause of defense. This would be one of those jihads, the actual nature of which is defense. by Ayatullah Morteza Mutahhar 

Let me simplify this for you. If a country decides that in the best interest of its' people that Islam is bad and wants to keep it out muslims believe it is ok to war against them and this is somehow self defence. Islam also encourages the idea that people who have not embraced Islam need help whether they know it or not. So muslims are permitted to war against the government of those people and enforce Islam to "liberate" them.

That is not self defence that is coercion, oppression, and OFFENSIVE WAR.

1. coercion - the act of compelling by force of authority

2. coercion - using force to cause something to occur;

1. offensive (usually preceded by the) an attitude or position of aggression

2. offensive (Military) an assault, attack, or military initiative, esp a strategic one

1. oppression - the act of subjugating by cruelty

Qur'an:9:29 "Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission."

Qur'an:8:39 "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah."

Qur'an:8:39 "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)."

Your claim that Islam only wants muslims to spread its' message and not force it on non-muslim is not supported by the koran or the collective opinion of the Islamic clerics. I have shown you more than once that jihad is considered holy by the Islamic clerics. AND I have shown you that Islam's idea of self defence is NOT the same as everyone elses. So you can try and try to defend it you still come out wrong.

[SalahDinThe2nD]

That is not self defence that is coercion, oppression, and OFFENSIVE WAR.

1. coercion - the act of compelling by force of authority

2. coercion - using force to cause something to occur;

1. offensive (usually preceded by the) an attitude or position of aggression

2. offensive (Military) an assault, attack, or military initiative, esp a strategic one

1. oppression - the act of subjugating by cruelty

Qur'an:9:29 "Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission."

Qur'an:8:39 "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah."

The verses is related to arab pagan who torture muslims in early year look to  occasions/circumstances of revelation :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asbab_al-nuzul



Qital mean war in arabic but jihad mean struggle so jihad will holy struggle

[resistingrexmundi]

The verses is related to arab pagan who torture muslims in early year look to  occasions/circumstances of revelation :

Well then you are calling the hadiths false. Unless of course you consider someone not agreeing to follow Muhammad in his crackpot religion torture.


Bukhari:V5B57N27 "'Then I saw Uqba coming to the Prophet while he was praying. He seized his robe. Abu Bakr came crying and pulled Uqba away. He said, "Would you kill a man just because he says: 'Allah is my Lord.'" Then they left him. That is the worst that I ever saw the Quraysh do to him.'"

So the worst that the pagan arabs could do to Muhammad or his muslims was pull on their robes.

Tabari VI:101 "The Messenger remained in Mecca preaching in secret and openly, protected by his uncle Abu Talib."
"When the Quraysh saw that they had no means of attacking him physically , they accused him of sorcery, soothsaying, and madness, and of being a poet. They began to keep those away from him whom they feared might listen and follow him."
Ishaq:130/Tabari VI:101 "'The nastiest thing I saw the Quraysh do to the Messenger occurred when their nobles assembled in the Hijr"
"We have never seen the kind of trouble we have endured from this fellow. He has derided our traditional values, declared our way of life foolish, abused and insulted our forefathers, reviled our religion, caused division among us, divided the community, and cursed our gods."'"
Muhammad responded to this "torture" with these words
'Hear me, O Quraysh. By Him who holds Muhammad’s life in his hand, I will bring you slaughter.'"

Seems to be a bit of an over reaction to some name calling. The sad part is they were simply telling the truth about Muhammad.

Ishaq:134 "'Muhammad if you don't accept our offer then ask your Lord to give us the land and water we lack, for we are shut in by these mountains, we have no river, and none live a harder life than we do."
"If you speak the truth, resurrect Qusayy for us for he was a true shaikh, so that we may ask him whether what you say is accurate."
"If you do this we will believe you and know that God has sent you as an apostle as you claim.'"

These hardly sound like the words of someone who had the strength to "torture" muslims. They offered Muhammad everything he wanted on a silver platter.

"Well then at least ask your god to send an angel to confirm your depictions of paradise and give you the mansions and gold you obviously crave. If not that, then send us the Day of Doom you threaten us with, for we will not believe you until you perform a miracle."
"Why doesn't your god help you? Didn't he know that we were going to present you with these opportunities to prove yourself? Listen, Muhammad; we know the truth.
Information has reached us that you are taught by this fellow in Yemen called al-Rahman. By Allah, we will never believe in Ar-Rahman.'"
"'Alright then, our conscience is clear.' When they said this the Prophet got up and left."

Doesn't sound like they were torturing Muhammad or muslims. They simply wanted some proof that what he was saying was true. Not unreasonable. All the other Prophets did miracles.

"The Quraysh said, 'This is what we will give you, Muhammad, so desist from reviling our gods and do not speak evilly of them.'"
Tabari VI:106 "The Quraysh promised Muhammad that they would give him so much wealth that he would become the richest man in Mecca [money], they would give him as many wives as he wanted [sex], and they would submit to his commands [power]."
Tabari VI:107 "'If you will do so, we offer you something which will be to your advantage and to ours.'"
Tabari VI:107 "'If you will do so, we offer you something which will be to your advantage and to ours.'"
"'What is it.' he asked. They said, 'If you will worship our gods, Al-Lat and Al-Uzza, for a year, we shall worship your god for a year."
Again not the words of people who were in any position to torture anyone.

Qital mean war in arabic but jihad mean struggle so jihad will holy struggle

So now you admit jihad means holy at some point. Well at least you admitted to one lie. Now for the rest. As I said before you either have a different idea of struggle than the rest of the world or you are lying.

Noble Qur'an:2:190 Footnote: "Jihad is holy fighting in Allah's Cause with full force of numbers and weaponry. It is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars. By Jihad Islam is established, Allah's Word is made superior (which means only Allah has the right to be worshiped), and Islam is propagated. By abandoning Jihad Islam is destroyed and Muslims fall into an inferior position; their honor is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim. He who tries to escape from this duty, or does not fulfill this duty, dies as a hypocrite."

This is not struggle. THAT IS WAR WAR WAR. Say it with me WAR. Muslims love redifining words so that people here are lulled into thinking that "Oh ok jihad means struggle not war." When anyone with a brain can see that their is nothing noble or spiritual about what they are talking about.

[SalahDinThe2nD]

No i didnt adimt anything jihad is holy word mean struggly not for defence only but for exam and to feed to your family .

i got your point , you are trying to make our religion looks to your pathetic pagan religion that was made out by saul ( the one that Latin call paul to make look like Creek )


Jesus(isa pbuh) was human  until 325

Most Christians identified Jesus as divine from a very early period, although holding a variety of competing views as to what exactly this implied.[45] Early Christian views tended to see Jesus as a unique agent of God;[46] by the Council of Nicaea in 325 he was identified as God in the fullest sense, literally 'of the same substance, essence or being', hence in the further wording of the Creed, "? ?? ?? ? ??" Theón al?thinón ek Theoú al?thinoú 'true God from true God'.

[resistingrexmundi]

No i didnt adimt anything jihad is holy word mean struggly not for defence only but for exam and to feed to your family .

Really?

First jihad is mean struggle not holy war as you claim .

So first you say it isn't holy. Then you say it is. Sounds like you admitted to something. And as I said before it only means self defence if you redefine the word like Ayatullah Morteza Mutahhar did and it isn't self defence as the footnote I provided several times shows.

Noble Qur'an:2:190 Footnote: "Jihad is holy fighting in Allah's Cause with full force of numbers and weaponry. It is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars. By Jihad Islam is established, Allah's Word is made superior (which means only Allah has the right to be worshiped), and Islam is propagated. By abandoning Jihad Islam is destroyed and Muslims fall into an inferior position; their honor is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim. He who tries to escape from this duty, or does not fulfill this duty, dies as a hypocrite."

That is not self defence he is describing a war to make people convert to Islam.

i got your point , you are trying to make our religion looks to your pathetic pagan religion that was made out by saul ( the one that Latin call paul to make look like Creek )


Jesus(isa pbuh) was human  until 325

Most Christians identified Jesus as divine from a very early period, although holding a variety of competing views as to what exactly this implied.[45] Early Christian views tended to see Jesus as a unique agent of God;[46] by the Council of Nicaea in 325 he was identified as God in the fullest sense, literally 'of the same substance, essence or being', hence in the further wording of the Creed, "? ?? ?? ? ??" Theón al?thinón ek Theoú al?thinoú 'true God from true God'.

You did not get my point or you are lying one. Because the whole point was showing you the nature of jihad as outlined by the koran and the Islamic clerics. I understand why you are changing the subject. You have been shown a liar and proven incorrect so you are trying to change the shubject to draw attention away from this sfact. But to address your claims.

The disciples, you know those 12 guys that actually walked around with Jesus, identified Jesus as God incarnate.

Jhn 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: [then] came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace [be] unto you.

Jhn 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust [it] into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

Jhn 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
We have thousands of manuscripts that predate the Nicean Council so your argument is effectivly moot.

[Peter]

No i didnt adimt anything jihad is holy word mean struggly not for defence only but for exam and to feed to your family .

i got your point , you are trying to make our religion looks to your pathetic pagan religion that was made out by saul ( the one that Latin call paul to make look like Creek )

Why pick on Paul when John does such a better regarding Mohammedanism?

1Jo 5:10  He that BELIEVETH ON THE SON OF GOD hath the witness in himself: HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT GOD HATH MADE HIM A LIAR; because HE BELIEVED NOT THE RECORD that God gave OF HIS SON.

1John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? HE IS ANTICHRIST, THAT DENIETH the Father and THE SON. 23 WHOSOEVER DENIETH THE SON, THE SAME HATH NOT THE FATHER:

Chrisitians follow ALL of the prophets and witnesses as they are revealed over the course of the 1600 year record of God to mankind. We are saved under a new covenant that brought Gentiles into God's plan for salvation through Jesus Christ. We follow Jesus Christ as He is revealed through ALL of His witnesses. The only person in human history to be born of a virgin by the will of God. The only sinless person in human history, manifest to provide the perfect example, for all mankind. He lives today.

You have bet your eternal life on following Mohammed who was, and taught, the EXACT OPPOSITE of Jesus Christ. A prisoner raping, sex slave pimping, child doing, sex crazed, stepson's wife stealing, poet murdering thief. Whose corpse still lies rotting in its shallow grave.

[SalahDinThe2nD]

Haten who ? you are the only people who hate god look :

Why, O LORD, do you stand far off? Why do you hide yourself in

times of trouble? psalm 10 :1

God wants 32 virgin women for himself? (Numbers 31:32-40)

b. God was not able to drive out irons (Judges 1:19)
c. God and Satan are the? Same (I Chronicles 21:1 and 2 Samuel

24:1)

10 - JACOB WRESTLES WITH GOD (Genesis 32:21-32.

Paul was false apostel like or not .


is tha true

Chrisitians follow ALL of the prophets and witnesses as they are revealed over the course of the 1600 year record of God to mankind

yeah that can be seen form you actions .

eating pigs .
put imag in chruch .
killing jews .


i am sure you followed all  of them . cont. the good work

[resistingrexmundi]

Haten who ? you are the only people who hate god look :

Why, O LORD, do you stand far off? Why do you hide yourself in

times of trouble? psalm 10 :1

Asking God questions is not hateful. I understand why you think that though

"Allah has hated for you three things: ... 3. And asking too many questions (in disputed religious matters)." (Dr. Khan, Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol. 2, #555)

5:101. O you who believe! Ask not about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if you ask about them while the Qur'ân is being revealed, they will be made plain to you. Allâh has forgiven that, and Allâh is Oft­Forgiving, Most Forbearing.

102. Before you, a community asked such questions, then on that account they became disbelievers.

The beauty of Christianity is that we can ask God as many questions as we want.

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

To answer yet another of your misguided claims. Let me ask you where does it say God wanted these virgins for sex? A claim you put forth. These women would have served as servants and their fate was far better off as such because the people that they previously had been part of were evil. These women could now enjoy the bounty of the Lord through his chosen people the Jews.
Num 31:40 And the persons [were] sixteen thousand; of which the LORD'S tribute [was] thirty and two persons.

Did you even bother to read the verses you posted?

1Ch 21:1 ¶ And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

2Sa 24:1 ¶ And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
These verses are not saying that satan and God are the same. Satan was used as an instrument of God's will. Just as he was in Job.


And for your problem with Jacob you should note that Jacob was not aware of who he was wrestling until after the match was over. And that the man he wrestled with popped his joint out of place showing that he could have won the fight at any point he wished. Jacob's name was changed to Israel which means "God prevails." This was to become a characteristic of the nation. They were constantly struggling against God's wishes for them. Fortunately God keeps His promises even if we do not. And God promised to bless Israel and has to this day. So get over it.

Gen 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.

Gen 32:25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.

Gen 32:26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.

Gen 32:27 And he said unto him, What [is] thy name? And he said, Jacob.

Gen 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

Gen 32:29 And Jacob asked [him], and said, Tell [me], I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore [is] it [that] thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.

yeah that can be seen form you actions .

eating pigs .
put imag in chruch .
killing jews .


i am sure you followed all of them . cont. the good work

eating pigs .

Not all of us do but most of us realize this.

Mar 7:15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

Mar 7:16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

Mar 7:17 And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable.

Mar 7:18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, [it] cannot defile him;

Mar 7:19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?

Mar 7:20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.

Mar 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,

Mar 7:22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:

Mar 7:23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Food does not defile us. Our thoughts are what defile us. Sin begins in the heart because sin at its' core is a willing disobedience of God. The old Levitical code of kosher food is for the benefit of the body not necassarilly the soul.


put imag in chruch .

Have to talk to Catholics and Eastern Orthodox about that. I personally do not make graven images nor do I bow down to them. I understand that muslims bow down to a rock though. Wonder how God feels about that?

killing jews

That is just ludicrous. As I have explained to you before anyone, wether they call themselves Christian or not, that murders ANYONE is simply not Christian.


Mat 5:21 ¶ Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

We aren't even allowed to be angry with someone without cause. And if I were in your position I wouldn't talk about any Jew killing since the koran and hadith are full such commands. As well as a disparaging view of Jews.

Qur'an 2:61 "Humiliation and wretchedness were stamped on the Jews and they were visited with Allah's wrath."

Qur'an 4:47 "O you People of the Book to whom the Scripture has been given, believe in what We have (now) revealed, confirming and verifying what was possessed by you, before We destroy your faces beyond all recognition, turning you on your backs, and curse you as We cursed the Sabbath-breakers, for the decision of Allah Must be executed."

The irony here of course is that muslims do not honor the Sabbath either.


Qur'an 2:64 "But you [Jews] went back on your word and were lost losers. So become apes, despised and hated. We made an example out of you."

Ishaq:240 "The Jews are a nation of liars.... The Jews are a treacherous, lying, and evil people."

Qur'an 59:14 "The Jews are devoid of sense. There is a grievous punishment awaiting them. Satan tells them not to believe so they will end up in Hell."

Ishaq:254

Qur'an 2:96 "We will not remove a Jew from the punishment. They know the shameful thing that awaits them."

Qur'an 4:55 "Sufficient for the Jew is the Flaming Fire!"

Tabari VIII:121 "Ali struck the Jew with a swift blow that split his helmet, neck protector, and head, landing in his rear teeth. And the Muslims entered the city. Muhammad conquered the [Jewish] neighborhood. Safiyah was brought to him, and another woman with her. Bilal led them past some of the Jews we had slain including the woman's dead husband. When she saw them, the woman with Safiyah cried out, slapped her face, and poured dust on her head. When Allah's Prophet saw her, he said, 'Take this she-devil away from me!'"

Bukhari:V4B53N380 "Umar expelled all the Jews and Christians from Arabia. Allah's Apostle after conquering Khaybar thought of expelling the Jews from the land which, after he conquered it, belonged to Allah, Allah's Apostle and the Muslims. But the Jews requested Allah's Apostle to leave them there on the condition that they would do the labor and get half of the fruits (the land would yield). Allah's Apostle said, 'We shall keep you on these terms as long as we wish.' Thus they stayed till the time of Umar's Caliphate when he expelled them."

Talk about unfair treatment. And for no other reason than the fact they were Jews.

Tabari VIII:130 "The Messenger said during his final illness, 'Two religions cannot coexist in the Arabian Peninsula.' Umar investigated the matter, then sent to the Jews, saying: 'Allah has given permission for you to be expelled; for I have received word that the Prophet said that two religions cannot coexist in Arabia."

Religious intolerance anyone. Amazing that muslims claim that all the time given this disgusting treatment of the Jews.

Tabari VII:94 "The Prophet said, 'Who will rid me of Ashraf?' Muhammad bin Maslamah, said, 'I will rid you of him, Messenger of Allah. I will kill him.' 'Do it then,' he said, 'if you can.'"

Bukhari:V4B52N270 "The Prophet said, 'Who is ready to kill Ka'b bin Ashraf who has really hurt Allah and His Apostle?' Muhammad bin Maslama said, 'O Allah's Apostle! Do you want me to kill him?' He replied in the affirmative."

Just for an insulting word. Disproportionate much?

Bukhari:V1B1N6 "Just issue orders to kill every Jew in the country."

"Muhammad said, 'Kill any Jew that falls into your power.'"

"It is not fitting for a prophet that he should have prisoners of war and free them with ransom until he has made a great slaughter among his enemies in the land." Vol. 4, #161

And of course the all time muslim favorite.

"The Hour [Resurrection] will not take place until the Muslims fight the Jews, and kill them. And the Jews will hide behind the rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, this is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!"

Those glass houses must really suck when you start throwing stones.

Muslims commit these heinous crimes because their prophet told them to. The Bible never gives Christians or Jews an open ended command to kill.