Greetings from the Ozarks!

[revlar]

I am a bi-vocational pastor of a small (but thriving) interdenominational church in the Missouri Ozarks and am here because of something that happened to me last week-end.

This past Sunday I preached on Mark 13:1-13 (signs of the end of the age). As I was working on the message and was trying to strike the right balance between warning and optimism - I read on through to the end of that chapter for the umpteenth time. Then, seemingly out of the blue - something suddenly occurred to me. I keep a large framed photograph of the Temple Mount in Jerusalem on display in the church office. As I looked at the picture of the Dome of the Rock sitting on the ruins of the Hebrew temple a thought flashed through my mind - could that building possibly be "the abomination that causes desolation" mentioned in Mk 13:14, Da 9:27, 11:31 and 12:11?

Over the past few days (in my spare time - when I have any) I did some web surfing, and so - here I am.  There obviously is a great deal of material to be reviewed here and on the companion website.  But the more I read, think and pray about it all - the more it makes sense.  I did not want to believe that one of the three great monotheistic religions could be so closely tied to so many of the evils that plague today's world, but healthy doses of Holy Scripture and global situational awareness seem to be removing the scales from my eyes.  The god of Islam is not the God I know - therefore it must be an other, and far lesser god.  Sounds simple now - but getting to this point in my mental processes was not.  Forgiveness and tolerance is central to my faith - but even seventy times seven is a finite number.

Thank you for giving me the resources.

[resistingrexmundi]

Hi revlar  Welcome to the forum

I am pleased that you found your way here. I wish more pastors would show up here. Many that I talk to are so caught up on their own idea of the end time they are blind to the enemy that stands in front of them. And while I agree with you that tolerance is key to an open dialogue we are also told to be wise as serpents while being gentle as doves. That being the case I hope you gain alot from your time up here.

God bless

[Peter]

I am a bi-vocational pastor of a small (but thriving) interdenominational church in the Missouri Ozarks and am here because of something that happened to me last week-end.

This past Sunday I preached on Mark 13:1-13 (signs of the end of the age). As I was working on the message and was trying to strike the right balance between warning and optimism - I read on through to the end of that chapter for the umpteenth time. Then, seemingly out of the blue - something suddenly occurred to me. I keep a large framed photograph of the Temple Mount in Jerusalem on display in the church office. As I looked at the picture of the Dome of the Rock sitting on the ruins of the Hebrew temple a thought flashed through my mind - could that building possibly be "the abomination that causes desolation" mentioned in Mk 13:14, Da 9:27, 11:31 and 12:11?

Over the past few days (in my spare time - when I have any) I did some web surfing, and so - here I am.  There obviously is a great deal of material to be reviewed here and on the companion website.  But the more I read, think and pray about it all - the more it makes sense.  I did not want to believe that one of the three great monotheistic religions could be so closely tied to so many of the evils that plague today's world, but healthy doses of Holy Scripture and global situational awareness seem to be removing the scales from my eyes.  The god of Islam is not the God I know - therefore it must be an other, and far lesser god.  Sounds simple now - but getting to this point in my mental processes was not.  Forgiveness and tolerance is central to my faith - but even seventy times seven is a finite number.

Thank you for giving me the resources.

Hello revlar, and welcome to the forum. Sorry for my delay but I was unavailable for the last 10 days.
We only need a couple of suras from the Quran to understand that Islam is the exact and perfect opposite of Christianity:

Sura 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

Surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

You see, Muslims are filled with resolve as to what to DISbelieve, but Mohammed left a complete vacuum as to who DID die on the cross.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=628.0

If you haven't yet, you need to read "The False Prophet" by Ellis Skolfield right now. It will put all this together and bless you like no book you have ever read besides the bible. The 80 year old author has written about the role of Islam in end time prophecy for almost 30 years. You can get a hard copy from him or read it online at my site:
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_false_prophet.htm


Oh yea, and by the way, the Muslims built the Dome of the Rock over the wrong rock! It stands hundreds of feet away from where the temple stood. Isn't that hilarious?:
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm#court_without
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=543.0

[ernietottenham]

Surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

Is it possible to explain this text to Muslims in the following way?

This does not tell us that Jesus was not crucified. It merely refutes the boasting claim that the Jews were the ones responsible for His death. They were not. It only had that appearance. It looked like that was the case. The truth of the matter is that it was God Himself who gave Jesus command to voluntarily sacrifice His life. It was the eternal plan and purpose of God according to the words of the prophets.

Explaining this way opens a way to open the Gospel for Muslims from their Qur'anic perspective. See also e.g:
http://www.ibnzura.com/grace_in_the_gospel.php?lang=en

[resistingrexmundi]

Is it possible to explain this text to Muslims in the following way?

This does not tell us that Jesus was not crucified. It merely refutes the boasting claim that the Jews were the ones responsible for His death. They were not. It only had that appearance. It looked like that was the case. The truth of the matter is that it was God Himself who gave Jesus command to voluntarily sacrifice His life. It was the eternal plan and purpose of God according to the words of the prophets.

It is possible to explain it that way. It would even go great lengths in reconciling another passage in the koran that speaks of Jesus' death and ressurection. The problem is that most of the muslims that come up here are far too indoctrinated to consider this possibility but it may be worth trying. Feel free to post on this view and expound upon it.

Welcome to the forum by the way

[Peter]

Surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

Is it possible to explain this text to Muslims in the following way?

I may be misunderstanding, but if your effort is to combine the Quran with scripture for them, I don't think that would be well advised since the Quran was inspired by Satan. I believe they need to be impressed with having to make a choice between two entirely incompatible faiths. Indeed opposites. All of the prophets and witnesses as revealed through the 1600 year record of God's Word, or the 23 year 7th century record of Mohammed, who was and taught the exact opposite of Jesus Christ.

We can do that eventually through discussing things like the Spirit of God in our respective beliefs and such. Since they believe that God has a Spirit then why do they call it two Gods when describing Christian beliefs, but one God when describing Islam?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=174.0
Ask them if it wasn't Jesus then who did die on the cross.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=628.0
A better approach rather than trying to convince them that they are wrong about their understanding of a verse in the Quran, might be to discuss martyrdom in general. They can see it in Islam (though generally associated with inadvertently being killed while in the act of murdering others) but they just can't see it in God's plan. Talk about blood for atonement from the beginning of the old covenant and such.
Why do some Muslims believe the first drop of blood shed by a martyr may provide propitiation for the sins of 70 of his nearest and dearest friends and relatives, but they can't imagine that God would manifest Himself to do the very same, for all mankind.

This does not tell us that Jesus was not crucified.

It says precisely that. It begins by quoting the Jews, but then "Allah" (Mohammed) states precisely "they killed him not, nor crucified him". No Muslim will ever come to believe that Jesus was crucified, until Jesus works in his heart.

It merely refutes the boasting claim that the Jews were the ones responsible for His death.

I don't believe you can't make a case for that according to the verse, and I can guarantee you can't make the case for that to a Muslim. They find the whole idea of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross to save us from sin repugnant.

They were not. It only had that appearance. It looked like that was the case.

It is saying that the witnesses to the cross were all somehow deceived into believing that Jesus was crucified. The funny thing is that while Mohammed filled Muslims with complete resolve as to who didn't die on the cross, he left a complete vacuum as to who did. The vast array of speculation within the Muslim world is stunning, even though Mohammed accuses those who believe Jesus died on the cross of being " full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow" when that exactly describes Muslims. Please look at all their various goofy notions in this thread.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=628.0

The truth of the matter is that it was God Himself who gave Jesus command to voluntarily sacrifice His life. It was the eternal plan and purpose of God according to the words of the prophets.

Explaining this way opens a way to open the Gospel for Muslims from their Qur'anic perspective. See also e.g:
http://www.ibnzura.com/grace_in_the_gospel.php?lang=en

Regarding your OP did you get a chance to read The False Prophet yet?


I'm going to move this thread to general discussion.

[ernietottenham]

if your effort is to combine the Quran with scripture for them, I don't think that would be well advised since the Quran was inspired by Satan.

There may be two ways concerning the use of the Qur’an in Muslim evangelism. (See e.g. http://www.evangelical-times.org/Website_Pages/ArticleDetail.php?articleID=3624).

You may be a supporter of not using the Qur'an. However it may be important for a Muslim to know you have knowledge of the Qur'an. In that case you will come closer to him and you may improve the relation with him. I was confronted with Muslims who really wanted to be accept Jesus Christ, but were looking for help from a Qur'anic point of view.

No Muslim will ever come to believe that Jesus was crucified, until Jesus works in his heart.

I agree with you. Question is how to help them, or how to open ourself for the Holy Spirit to let it happen.

[Peter]

if your effort is to combine the Quran with scripture for them, I don't think that would be well advised since the Quran was inspired by Satan.

There may be two ways concerning the use of the Qur’an in Muslim evangelism. (See e.g. http://www.evangelical-times.org/Website_Pages/ArticleDetail.php?articleID=3624).

There are certainly lots more than two. Since most of the Muslims I deal with are in YouTube they are hardened and determined to keeping their eyes closed. I do understand that this may not include the read-only participants who never participate. I look at what I do as generally the slap upside the head, and shake em by the lapels guy hoping to just ignite a single spark of cognative dissonance. Then I might direct them to a channel like muslims4jesus for testimonies of their former brethren.

The most important thing, the most important thing, is getting them to read the Gospel. 95% of Muslim testimonies are the result of their simply having picked up the Word of God and read even just a line or two. Often the bible opens to the perfect spot all by itself, and the perfect verse is right there before them. Like one I just read about recently where a woman opened it and the first thing she read about was the Gospel story about the adulteress. Let Jesus do the rest.

I am trying to help the ones that already reject the Gospel, through any complacency that may have, that resulted from an ecumenical apostate church that may have given them comfort into being deluded into believing they worship the same God (like the pope kissing the Quran).

One of their favorite YouTube Greek sophist styled entertainers is Ahmed Deedat. YouTube is larded with his blasphemy against God. He fills Muslims full of pride through pure deception and ignorance. He even made up his own bible verse, and then spoke as if it demonstrated that the First Epistle of John confirms that Mohammed was a true prophet. The funny thing is that I can't imagine a more Islam hostile book in the bible. This created tremendous opportunity.
Here is a sample video on this subject
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDslsWDzPIc

It's all about getting them into the Word. All about getting them into the Word. Here is another video in which I feature Deedat that has gotten over 1/4 million views, most heavily from North Africa and the middle east
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sN-_20sjHVI

YouTube is a great place to find Muslims willing to communicate. Also a great place to practice, and more importantly learn, about Islam through their eyes in the process. Not through our pre-conceived notions.

You may be a supporter of not using the Qur'an.

Not at all. I quote from the Quran and hadith a lot. I don't, however, try to deceive them into thinking that it is anything other than false. I wouldn't be comfortable with that.
I do illuminate parallels in our beliefs that I can use to advantage.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=174.0
http://www.youtube.com/user/PeteWaldo#p/u/42/ASKzQChe77U
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/index.htm

However it may be important for a Muslim to know you have knowledge of the Qur'an.

It's essential for what I do, though I haven't read it in it's entirety. Others evangelizing may be better off remaining ignorant to it for their purposes. I can't say. Since I was only saved in 2003 if you had told me prior to that, that I would not only be casting all my toys aside, but eventually be in ministry full time to Muslims, I would have told you that you were nuts.

In that case you will come closer to him and you may improve the relation with him. I was confronted with Muslims who really wanted to be accept Jesus Christ, but were looking for help from a Qur'anic point of view.

Then I think that will be easy. Skip the Quran. They aren't hardened. What they are really hungering for is the Word of God. They just don't realize it yet.

I believe the best thing you can do is give them a tract of the Gospel. No commentary. I like the book of John because it opens wonderfully for them. Tracts are available on my sites. You can see that the whole book of John is available in several tracts. Try giving it to them and then let them start a conversation about it.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/free_tracts.htm (also folding instructions here for shirt pocket size)

Here's the one from that page of the first 3 chapters of John without commentary or bolded font
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/m6.pdf

This is a more smack em upside the head I wouldn't recommend this first
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/m15a.pdf
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/m1a.pdf

Let me know if you want some changes in the PDFs for your own purposes.

For messages to take to your church use the PDF list at beholdthebeast
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/free_bible_tracts.htm

 

No Muslim will ever come to believe that Jesus was crucified, until Jesus works in his heart.

I agree with you. Question is how to help them, or how to open ourself for the Holy Spirit to let it happen.

Let Jesus do it through the Gospel.

[resistingrexmundi]

95% of Muslim testimonies are the result of their simply having picked up the Word of God and read even just a line or two. Often the bible opens to the perfect spot all by itself, and the perfect verse is right there before them.

This is true even of their most accomplished Imams. The book Islam and Terrorism shows how a well respected Islamic scholar who had memorized the koran by the age of twelve had finally converted after a local Christian pharmacist gave him a copy of the Bible. He allowed it to fall open and it fell to the Sermon on the Mount(I think). His conversion was almost immediate. He saw the deep void Islam had left in his life. NO guarantee of forgiveness, salvation or hope. Your eternity totally relying on the whim of a god that is a deciever by his own admission. Of course this man had already began to doubt the validity of Islam but it wasn't until he finally delved into the Word that he recieved Jesus.

If you notice by most of the arguments up here that the most scripture many muslims read are proof texted verses set up by Islamic or athiest sites. It is easy to tell they haven't actually opened up any of the Gospels and just read them with no agenda one way or the other. Ironically many of them have not even read the koran entirely or many of the hadith. In fact memorization is prized above understanding in many Islamic communities. The idea is that an Imam will tell you what it means rather than trust you to find out for yourself.

The irony is that over a year or so ago I did just that with the koran, but it was such a jumbled mess it was hard to follow. So I bought guides to the koran but they fell drastically short of clearing anything up. After searching the web the more disturbed I became at what I was finding below the veneer that Islam presents and ultimately it led me here....Didn't mean for this to turn into a testimony.

[ernietottenham]

Since most of the Muslims I deal with are in YouTube they are hardened and determined to keeping their eyes closed.

You are doing a fantastic job on the YouTube "theatre". Not only to reach the hardened and determined Muslims, but also more in general to defend the Gospel of Jesus Christ. However, there are also other "theatres": in the company, environment, the street, etc. On the street, Muslims are open for a conversation about the Gospel. They are not sure if they go to heaven, so genuine christians have an opportunity to share the Good News. And yes: we have Muslims people who accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour and are still in church.

[Peter]

Since most of the Muslims I deal with are in YouTube they are hardened and determined to keeping their eyes closed.

You are doing a fantastic job on the YouTube "theatre". Not only to reach the hardened and determined Muslims, but also more in general to defend the Gospel of Jesus Christ. However, there are also other "theatres": in the company, environment, the street, etc.

There is a desperate need for folks to be out there.
Before too long (if not already) you will increasingly realize that it is the phony eschatological doctrines that make the church blind to Islam, which manifests itself in the abject indifference that we can see.
Try even a non-denominational denomination, like Calvary Chapel, in a word search, and put - Muslim ministry - with it, and see how bleak the results are, particularly for domestic ministry. And that is a church of millions.
I fear that same blindness, through waiting for some future "tribulation", also blinds the church to the fate the poor saints are suffering all around the world, with 2 million killed in the Sudan alone.

On the street, Muslims are open for a conversation about the Gospel.

It could be that I could be called that way before long. My hands have been full for the last couple years, with very long days, 7 days a week, expanding the websites and YouTube channels based on my experiences over that time.

Not long ago I closed the Videos for comments with a link on each one to this forum. The 500 character sniping on YouTube is a great place to practice, but a really poor place to actually communicate. The same guys that are so brave in YouTube (because their folly is rapidly relegated to a successive page) for some reason don't want to come to a venue where we can quote each other and generally hold each other accountable for our words!
Lately I have had more time to myself, but I really need to turn my attention to the things I have neglected for the last couple of years.

 

They are not sure if they go to heaven, so genuine christians have an opportunity to share the Good News. And yes: we have Muslims people who accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour and are still in church.

One Malaysian Muslim, living outside of Malaysia, PMed me on my PeteWaldo channel, and said he had for some time had a growing feeling that everything wasn't right with Islam. He said he never had thought that Christianity could be the right answer, but the videos got him to consider that it might be. He wrote "I'm not saying I'm Christian or anything like that."
Then about 10 days later he PM'd me "I'm Christian now"!
He hadn't gone to a church or had any other contact besides our PMs, and I don't think there were any PMs exchanged over those 10 days. He was simply born again and filled with the Holy Spirit. I don't know if he had any other access to the Gospel, but he did on islamandthetruth.com .
With him living in a country on the other side of the world, that had a miniscule Christian population, but a very strong Jehovah's Witness presence in it, I didn't want to send him to some random church I wasn't familiar with. Today I would even be hard pressed to send anybody to any church in the U.S.!
I asked him if he wanted an 80 year old elder to baptize him over the phone (who had done this many times before) but he said he wanted me to do it. So that's what we did.
At first he was afraid that the people around him would find out, and I warned him that his face could betray him, by communicating the joy he felt. Well that's exactly what happened! His friends asked him why he was so happy and so he told them.
Next thing, a group of Islamic heavies (he lived in an Islamic enclave in this non-Islamic country) arrived at his dormitory and tried to persuade him to reconsider, of course, to no avail.
Last report I had, he is sharing the Gospel with whoever will listen, in that Muslim enclave. Takin' it to the streets.