Question: How many Muslims are there in the World today and and how many men did it take to Start the conversion to reach 1,8 billion? While billions of people (Atheist) still don't believe in ALLAH (al_illaah- THE GOD). Many more claim to believe but do not even know or care to know about revealed scripture. The system that is dominating the world is the religion of Capitalism (you call it social freedom) I call it creating a place where a human being can live like the animals do, eat what they want, kill and eat what they want, fornicate and promote fornication at every level, display sex in adverts, promote free sex in colleges, free sex on the internet, exploitation, wine, woman song, (Sodom and Ghomorrah ring a bell) Freedom of sex choices and widespread ignorance of the laws as prescribed in the revealed scriptures. One religion that actively discards the laws is Christianity, The Holy SPIRIT will guide you. Well you need to make your spirit holy before it guides you to holiness. These videos lack inspiration, they are sad stories of obviously GOD_less individuals that came from nothing and are now reading the Bible (well at least it is the first step). I cant believe I wasted my time watching them.
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 19, 2010, 03:55:01 PM
Question: How many Muslims are there in the World today and and how many men did it take to Start the conversion to reach 1,8 billion?
1 man. However in the first 13 years of Islam Mohammed was barely able to gain 100 converts. Then he left Mecca for Medina. As you know when he returned to Mecca with the two bandit tribes he enlisted in Medina he threatened the Quraish into submission to a religion that they wanted nothing to do with. After that it was easy for Mohammed and his follow murdering, prisoner raping, thieves to convert all of Arabia in short order, through the threat of the pain of death. However slavery was perhaps the most effective tool for spreading Islam, since if the first generation captive didn't go for it, their children would likely be indoctrinated into it successfully. Muslims "converted" through murdere, rape, pillage and plunder all the way up to Tours France, and Vienna Austria, during the first jihad.
How many men did it take to start CHRISTianity? 1 man - Jesus the CHRIST - the Messiah. He gained converts by manifesting God's love. A perfect and sinless example sent as an example for all mankind to follow.
God's name is YHWH as it occurs in scripture nearly 7,000 times. I means "I AM".
The Hebrew name for the Messiah is "Yeshua" which means "YHWH saves" or "delivers" or "rescues".
What do you suppose the Messiah saves us from? How does He deliver or rescue us? http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1728.0
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 19, 2010, 03:55:01 PMWhile billions of people (Atheist) still don't believe in ALLAH (al_illaah- THE GOD).
I don't believe in a god NAMED "Allah" either (though I am aware that Arabic speaking Christians use it as a generic TERM for God).
I believe in the one true God NAMED "YHWH".
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 19, 2010, 03:55:01 PMMany more claim to believe but do not even know or care to know about revealed scripture. The system that is dominating the world is the religion of Capitalism (you call it social freedom) I call it creating a place where a human being can live like the animals do, eat what they want, kill and eat what they want, fornicate and promote fornication at every level, display sex in adverts, promote free sex in colleges, free sex on the internet, exploitation, wine, woman song, (Sodom and Ghomorrah ring a bell) Freedom of sex choices and widespread ignorance of the laws as prescribed in the revealed scriptures.
Islam and Sharia law punish people for crimes that only result in those individuals personal destruction - in this world and the next. Men that suffer under a false delusion of self-righteousness, attempting to modify the behavior, of other men that are often more righteous. But all cutting off the hand of a thief does, for example, is harden his heart and fill him with hatred, further assuring his eternal destruction.
Most folks in civil societies appreciate the freedom to do as they choose whether it is self-destructive or not. Why don't you want to trust God to sort us out?
When a person receives Yeshua, the Messiah dwells within him - indewells - through the Holy Spirit. Through that relationship a Christian becomes evermore sanctified, and strives evermore to be like Jesus Christ, and grows farther and farther away from the ills of this world that you detail. Indeed when a person's heart is changed - when they are "born again" - they leave this world and enter the kingdom of God.
Perhaps the best summary of this is subject of judgment of men, of other men, was illustrated when an adulteress came to Jesus. The thread also details what Mohammed did in the same circumstance.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=877.0
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 19, 2010, 03:55:01 PMOne religion that actively discards the laws is Christianity, .......
This from someone whose Sabbath is on Friday.
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 19, 2010, 03:55:01 PM..... The Holy SPIRIT will guide you. Well you need to make your spirit holy before it guides you to holiness.
The Holy Spirit simply IS.
One is either indewelled by it or not. As long as you put your effort into MISunderstanding you will not be able to understand the things of the Spirit. That's why you are bewildered by the videos of your former brethren.
1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
Why don't you appeal directly to Jesus Christ? The man that even you would likely agree was the only man in human history to be conceived by a virgin by the will of God. A man that many Muslims believe never sinned. A man whose body you agree, does not lie in an earthly grave, but was raised directly to God.
All that while Mohammed's corpse still lies rotting in it's shallow grave.
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 19, 2010, 03:55:01 PMThese videos lack inspiration, they are sad stories of obviously GOD_less individuals that came from nothing and are now reading the Bible (well at least it is the first step). I cant believe I wasted my time watching them.
Why don't you try reading the Bible instead of watching videos?
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/gospel_of_john.htm
I would like to split both of your posts off of these topics and merge them into a single original thread since they didn't have a lot to do with the threads you posted them on.
Quote from: Peter on October 19, 2010, 04:47:20 PM
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 19, 2010, 03:55:01 PMWhile billions of people (Atheist) still don't believe in ALLAH (al_illaah- THE GOD).
I don't believe in a god NAMED "Allah" either (though I am aware that Arabic speaking Christians use it as a generic TERM for God).
I believe in the one true God NAMED "YHWH".
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 19, 2010, 03:55:01 PMMany more claim to believe but do not even know or care to know about revealed scripture. The system that is dominating the world is the religion of Capitalism (you call it social freedom) I call it creating a place where a human being can live like the animals do, eat what they want, kill and eat what they want, fornicate and promote fornication at every level, display sex in adverts, promote free sex in colleges, free sex on the internet, exploitation, wine, woman song, (Sodom and Ghomorrah ring a bell) Freedom of sex choices and widespread ignorance of the laws as prescribed in the revealed scriptures.
Islam and Sharia law punish people for crimes that only result in those individuals personal destruction - in this world and the next. Men that suffer under a false delusion of self-righteousness, attempting to modify the behavior, of other men that are often more righteous. But all cutting off the hand of a thief does, for example, is harden his heart and fill him with hatred, further assuring his eternal destruction.
Most folks in civil societies appreciate the freedom to do as they choose whether it is self-destructive or not. Why don't you want to trust God to sort us out?
When a person receives Yeshua, the Messiah dwells within him - indewells - through the Holy Spirit. Through that relationship a Christian becomes evermore sanctified, and strives evermore to be like Jesus Christ, and grows farther and farther away from the ills of this world that you detail. Indeed when a person's heart is changed - when they are "born again" - they leave this world and enter the kingdom of God.
Perhaps the best summary of this is subject of judgment of men, of other men, was illustrated when an adulteress came to Jesus. The thread also details what Mohammed did in the same circumstance.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=877.0
Your explanation makes absolutely no sense and and sounds very Pagan, almost Hindu, when you reach enlightenment your karma changes and the god (spirit within) is awakened and all your actions will be aligned to the natural order. That is a truly pagan concept of worship and contradicts every single prophet that came before Jesus and after.
How can you not believe in the ALLAH of Jesus (may ALLAH bestow peace upon him), What does Eli Eli sabachtani mean to you does Ielaah Ielaah mean MY ALLAH and what do mean when you say you do not believe in the Ielaah of Jesus are you an Atheist?
By the way Jesus was not a Christian he was incorrectly referred to as Christos (the annointed One) and it later became a derogatory term Christian, like a nickname that stuck with constant repetition in reference to those that follow the the annointed One.
But Can Followers of a Hebrew Come in a Greek Name?
And since the twelve Apostles and followers of the Messiah were Hebrew, wouldn’t they come in His name, Yahshua, and not the Greek title Christ? The Messiah told them at His ascension to preach in His name in Matt. 28:19 -20: "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father (Yahweh), and of the Son (Elohim), and of the Holy Ghost (Yahshua - Jn. 14:26): Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world."
Now historical documents show and prove that the followers of the Messiah didn’t call themselves Christians. The Greek word Christian appears in the so-called New Testament three times Acts 11:26, 26:28; and 1 Pet. 4:16. Christian is a title and not a proper name. Originally Romans or Gentiles gave the followers of the Messiah the name Christians and Mystery Babylon accepted it as the title the followers of the Messiah used for themselves.
Does 'Christian' Come from 'Christos' Which Means Anointed?
It must be understood by students of the scriptures that the Greek word Christian is derived from the Greek word Christos, which means anointed. The word 'Christos 'was in existence long before the birth of the Messiah. It is important to understand the context in which this word was used in everyday life prior to it being associated with the Messiah.
The Roman Catholic book The Names and Titles of Jesus, by Leopold Sabourin, S.J.; Imprimatur, by Terence J. Cooke, D.D., V.G., (copyright 1967, by The Macmillian Co.), pg. 5; states: "Strictly speaking, the term Messiah is equivalent to "Christ" because the Hebrew word Mashiah or "Anointed [of the Lord}" is translated by the Greek Khristos."
The Barnhart Dictionary of Etymology (H.W. Wilson) under Christ, pg. 169 states: " ... borrowed from Latin Christus, from Greek Christos, noun use of christos anointed, from chriein anoint ... The Greek is a translation of the Hebrew Mashiah anointed (of the Lord), MESSIAH ... "
Does 'Christos' Mean 'Messiah'?
''Both of the preceding quotes said that the Greek word 'Christos' is equivalent to the Greek word Messiah, that is a translation of the Hebrew word Mashiah. This is not true. 'Mashiah' is a Hebrew word that means the "Anointed of Yah" and not the "Anointed of the Lord." In Hebrew the iah in the word Messiah is Yah, the short form of Yahweh. Most biblical scholars make a great mistake and error in equating the Greek word 'Christos' with the Hebrew word Messiah. The Greeks have no word or equivalent to mean Yah or Yahweh which means: "He who brings into existence whatever exists." For example in English there is no equivalent word for Bethlehem, the Hebrew word which means 'house of bread.' So, the word has to be translated and pronounced as it is in the original tongue or language. As most translators know all proper nouns of cities, places, and names are pronounced and transliterated as they are in their own language when translated to another language.
reference http://www.plim.org/92didu.html
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 19, 2010, 06:26:58 PM
Quote from: Peter on October 19, 2010, 04:47:20 PM
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 19, 2010, 03:55:01 PMWhile billions of people (Atheist) still don't believe in ALLAH (al_illaah- THE GOD).
I don't believe in a god NAMED "Allah" either (though I am aware that Arabic speaking Christians use it as a generic TERM for God).
I believe in the one true God NAMED "YHWH".
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 19, 2010, 03:55:01 PMMany more claim to believe but do not even know or care to know about revealed scripture. The system that is dominating the world is the religion of Capitalism (you call it social freedom) I call it creating a place where a human being can live like the animals do, eat what they want, kill and eat what they want, fornicate and promote fornication at every level, display sex in adverts, promote free sex in colleges, free sex on the internet, exploitation, wine, woman song, (Sodom and Ghomorrah ring a bell) Freedom of sex choices and widespread ignorance of the laws as prescribed in the revealed scriptures.
Islam and Sharia law punish people for crimes that only result in those individuals personal destruction - in this world and the next. Men that suffer under a false delusion of self-righteousness, attempting to modify the behavior, of other men that are often more righteous. But all cutting off the hand of a thief does, for example, is harden his heart and fill him with hatred, further assuring his eternal destruction.
Most folks in civil societies appreciate the freedom to do as they choose whether it is self-destructive or not. Why don't you want to trust God to sort us out?
When a person receives Yeshua, the Messiah dwells within him - indewells - through the Holy Spirit. Through that relationship a Christian becomes evermore sanctified, and strives evermore to be like Jesus Christ, and grows farther and farther away from the ills of this world that you detail. Indeed when a person's heart is changed - when they are "born again" - they leave this world and enter the kingdom of God.
Perhaps the best summary of this is subject of judgment of men, of other men, was illustrated when an adulteress came to Jesus. The thread also details what Mohammed did in the same circumstance.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=877.0
Your explanation makes absolutely no sense and and sounds very Pagan, almost Hindu, when you reach enlightenment your karma changes and the god (spirit within) is awakened and all your actions will be aligned to the natural order.
It sounds that way to you because these are things of the Spirit. I already explained why you can't understand. And unless you repent you never will. Let's try an example.
"Righteous" Islamic police sent some girls back into a burning school building, because they had the nerve to try to escape the flames, by emerging from the building without wearing head coverings. 15 of the girls were killed when they were sent back in.
So what we see is that the perfectly innocent young girls, were killed by their absolutely reprobate judges - filthy Godless men.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=855.0
Can you see how the girls were innocent, while their "righteous" judges were absolute reprobates?
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 19, 2010, 06:26:58 PM
How can you not believe in the ALLAH .....
Because that was the pagan Arabian moon and star god.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1240.0
The God of the Christian and Jews name is YHWH which occurs nearly 7,000 times in scripture.
If you are having a little trouble wrapping your head around the origins of the name "Allah" this might help.
Are you aware that there is not a shred of historical or archaeological evidence that suggests that Mecca ever existed before immigrants from Yemen settled it in the 4th century AD, and built their kaaba for moon, sun, star and jinn-demon worship in the early 5th century?
Quote from: Peter on October 19, 2010, 07:46:52 PM
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 19, 2010, 06:26:58 PM
How can you not believe in the ALLAH .....
Because that was the pagan Arabian moon and star god.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1240.0
The God of the Christian and Jews name is YHWH which occurs nearly 7,000 times in scripture.
If you are having a little trouble wrapping your head around the origins of the name "Allah" this might help.
Are you aware that there is not a shred of historical or archaeological evidence that suggests that Mecca ever existed before immigrants from Yemen settled it in the 4th century AD, and built their kaaba for moon, sun, star and jinn-demon worship in the early 5th century?
You are avoiding the topic altogether and regurgitating the same nonsense over and over and over again who cares what you Rafat Amari says about Arabia, who would you believe someone that held the title of the "Truthful one" or a vile speculator that does not believe in the "eli eli sabachtani" of the BIBLE? Wake up man you have been indoctrinated, brainwashed and the same absurd logic comes out in all your answers. You say there is no evidence, you say there is evidence of bible history I have examined the pottery and the speculations and the conclusions and conjecture and assumptions that has very little to do with faith and everything to do with self importance and arrogance. You must decide are you an atheist that needs proof ior are you a believer of what has been revealed through the Prophets of ALLAH.
Your misrepresentation (highly opinionated conclusions about Islam is unfounded and without merit. It is simply a disgruntled christian sounding like he cannot reach the grapes and therefore says it must be sour anyway.
Please stick to the topic, No Muslims has discovered anything in the videos and upon reading the Bible there is evidence from the beginning to end that Islam is the culmination of the Reveal scriptures, The words Elohim (similar to ARahim, ARahmaan, ALLAH_HUM all points to the fact that the word for "THE GOD is Al-IELAAH (ALLAH) from the BIBLE. You make so many assumptions and draw so many conclusions this one is not one you want to admit to and it is really the crux of the matter. The denial of ALLAH as all the Prophets warned against, fought against, resisted the authorities and misguided priests and rabbis for. YaHuwa is Oh' YOU" Yashua (YA EESA) O' Jesus) terms of respect, and it is found throughout the Quran,
Oh you who believe ( ya ayyu halatheena AAMANU)
Oh you who disbelieve (Ya ayyu hal kaafirun)
Oh children of Israel (ya bani Israel)
Oh People of the book (ya ahlul kitaab)
One of the facts of history is that Arabic was used to get a more accurate translation of the bible
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 20, 2010, 07:46:37 AM
Quote from: Peter on October 19, 2010, 07:46:52 PM
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 19, 2010, 06:26:58 PM
How can you not believe in the ALLAH .....
Because that was the pagan Arabian moon and star god.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1240.0
The God of the Christian and Jews name is YHWH which occurs nearly 7,000 times in scripture.
If you are having a little trouble wrapping your head around the origins of the name "Allah" this might help.
Are you aware that there is not a shred of historical or archaeological evidence that suggests that Mecca ever existed before immigrants from Yemen settled it in the 4th century AD, and built their kaaba for moon, sun, star and jinn-demon worship in the early 5th century?
You are avoiding the topic altogether ........
Not at all. When you post a post with several premises we have to explore them. If you don't want to, I suggest you restrict your posts to one topic. In this case why I don't believe in Mohammed's, or the pagan Arabian's god, NAMED "Allah".
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 20, 2010, 07:46:37 AM......... and regurgitating the same nonsense over and over and over again who cares what you Rafat Amari says about Arabia, .......
If you believe the absence of historical or archaeological evidence regarding Mecca has something to do with Dr. Amari, then
all you have to do is bring to bear some evidence, that suggests that Mecca existed before the Christian era. Why engage in the typical Islamic tactic of attacking the messenger, to avoid the message?
Tell us how Ishmael made it from Mecca to Hebron across 1200 KM of harsh Arabian desert most of 1000 years before the first caravan route was established along the red sea, in time for his father's burial in Hebron.http://www.historyofmecca.com/geography_mecca.htm
What you are trying to do is launch off into irrelevant details to avoid fundamentals.
You see, if you cannot find any evidence that suggests that Mecca existed before the 4th century AD, then Mohammed's stand-alone 7th century religion goes right up in smoke.
Even some of Mohammed's closest followers knew that the Arabian rituals he adopted to Islam were nothing more than repackaged pagan jinn-demon worship rituals.
Asem told us that he said to Uns bin Malek, a companion of Mohammed, “You were hating to encompass around the Safa and Marwa.†He answered,
“Yes, because it was one of the pagan rites of Jahiliyah until Allah gave a verse that the Safa and Marwa are the rites of Allah. If one makes the Hajj to the Kaabah, he must encompass them. The person has no sin when he encompass them. (Sahih al-Bukhari, 2, page 171)
http://www.petewaldo.com/hajj___umrah.htm#al_safa_al_marwah
The reason that Mohammed's "Allah" "gave a verse" for Mohammed's followers to engage in this ritual, of course, was to appease the two bandit tribes he enlisted in Medina, to attack his people. Those tribes of Medina were heavily involved in this jinn-demon worship.
Quote from: Peter on October 20, 2010, 08:00:24 AM
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 20, 2010, 07:46:37 AM
Quote from: Peter on October 19, 2010, 07:46:52 PM
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 19, 2010, 06:26:58 PM
How can you not believe in the ALLAH .....
Because that was the pagan Arabian moon and star god.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1240.0
The God of the Christian and Jews name is YHWH which occurs nearly 7,000 times in scripture.
If you are having a little trouble wrapping your head around the origins of the name "Allah" this might help.
Are you aware that there is not a shred of historical or archaeological evidence that suggests that Mecca ever existed before immigrants from Yemen settled it in the 4th century AD, and built their kaaba for moon, sun, star and jinn-demon worship in the early 5th century?
You are avoiding the topic altogether ........
Not at all. When you post a post with several premises we have to explore them. If you don't want to I suggest you restrict your posts to one topic. In this case why I don't believe in Mohammed's or the pagan Arabian's god NAMED "Allah".
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 20, 2010, 07:46:37 AM......... and regurgitating the same nonsense over and over and over again who cares what you Rafat Amari says about Arabia, .......
If you believe the absence of historical or archaeological evidence regarding Mecca has to do with Dr. Amari, then all you have to do is bring to bear some evidence, that suggests that Mecca existed before the Christian era.
What you are trying to do is launch off into irrelevant details to avoid fundamentals.
You see, if you cannot find any evidence that suggests that Mecca existed before the 4th century AD, then Mohammed's stand-alone 7th century religion goes right up in smoke.
Even some of Mohammed's closest followers knew that his adopted were nothing more than repackaged pagan jinn-demon worship rituals.
Asem told us that he said to Uns bin Malek, a companion of Mohammed, “You were hating to encompass around the Safa and Marwa.†He answered, “Yes, because it was one of the pagan rites of Jahiliyah until Allah gave a verse that the Safa and Marwa are the rites of Allah. If one makes the Hajj to the Kaabah, he must encompass them. The person has no sin when he encompass them. (Sahih al-Bukhari, 2, page 171)
http://www.petewaldo.com/hajj___umrah.htm#al_safa_al_marwah
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm
You misunderstand me, I have read Rafat Amari's fiction and conclusions, thank him for his historical account of the temples of Arabia before the advent of Islam, then ask him to please not miss the point, Islam came to replace the incorrect belief of the world. Glorification of any object or human being or anyone born of a woman (virginal or otherwise) is not allowed,hear Ye O' Israel THE LORD YOUR GOD IS ONE.
MUSLIMS DO NOT WORSHIP THE OBJECTS OR BUILDINGS OR HUMAN BEINGS< THEY MAKE IT VERY CLEAR (THE GOD) AL_IELAAH (ALLAH THE MOST MERCIFUL THE MOST BENEFICENT IS WHOM THEY WORSHIP. None other but the GOD OF ADAM, ABRAHAM< MOSES< AARON,DAVID, SoLOMON, JESUS and Muhammad and all the Prophets of ALLAH.
You are not an expert and neither is Rafat Amari and your word is not acceptable, it is nothing but conjecture and there is nothing to ignore or present to you. You either believe the Quran or you don't, You either believe the BIBLE or twist the meaning to suit your own interpretations regarding the Scriptures. I cannot believe that you have such bad manners and call yourself a follower of Jesus, YOU DONT SPEAK HIS WORDS< YOU SPEW THE CONCLUSIONS OF OTHERS, YOU RESOUGHT TO DEFAMING NOBLE CHARACTERS AND YOU IGNORE THE SOURCE OF KNOWLEDGE THE SCRIPTURES>
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 20, 2010, 08:17:40 AM
You misunderstand me, I have read Rafat Amari's fiction and conclusions, thank him for his historical account of the temples of Arabia before the advent of Islam, ......
The Kaaba in Mecca having been built just like the other pagan kaabas, for moon, sun, star and demon worship.
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 20, 2010, 08:17:40 AM....... then ask him to please not miss the point, .........
The point is that Mecca did not exist before the 4th century AD. The Kaaba not before pagan immigrants from Yemen built it in the early 5th century AD.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1133.0
If you are going to refute that you are going to need to bring some historical and archaeological evidence to the contrary.
You are going to have to explain how Ishmael traveled the 1200 KM in time for Abraham's burial.
But you ignore the request because there is no explanation for that, any more than there is a history of Mecca, before the 4th century AD.
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 20, 2010, 08:17:40 AM........ Islam came to replace the incorrect belief of the world.
Sorry my friend, but Satan inspired Islam to reject the Gospel - to blaspheme the God of the Bible and His people - to reject all of the prophets and witnesses as revealed in scripture - through A SINGLE, STAND-ALONE, 7th century "prophet" that came along 500 years after God's record was closed.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
One must choose.
Quote from: Peter on October 20, 2010, 09:16:37 AM
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 20, 2010, 08:17:40 AM
You misunderstand me, I have read Rafat Amari's fiction and conclusions, thank him for his historical account of the temples of Arabia before the advent of Islam, ......
The Kaaba in Mecca having been built just like the other pagan kaabas, for moon, sun, star and demon worship.
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 20, 2010, 08:17:40 AM....... then ask him to please not miss the point, .........
The point is that Mecca did not exist before the 4th century AD. The Kaaba not before pagan immigrants from Yemen built it in the early 5th century AD.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1133.0
If you are going to refute that you are going to need to bring some historical and archaeological evidence to the contrary.
You are going to have to explain how Ishmael traveled the 1200 KM in time for Abraham's burial.
But you ignore the request because there is no explanation for that, any more than there is a history of Mecca, before the 4th century AD.
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 20, 2010, 08:17:40 AM........ Islam came to replace the incorrect belief of the world.
Sorry my friend, but Islam came to reject the Gospel - to blaspheme the God of the Bible and His people - through A SINGLE, STAND-ALONE, 7th century "prophet".
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
I am running out of time
I will come back to this thread and keep in mind the original topic.
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 20, 2010, 09:19:48 AM
I am running out of time
I will come back to this thread and keep in mind the original topic.
You don't need to announce that in the future. We all have lives. If someone stops posting we automatically presume that other business came up. My advice break the posts up into smaller pieces.
Quote from: Peter on October 20, 2010, 08:00:24 AM
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 20, 2010, 07:46:37 AM
Quote from: Peter on October 19, 2010, 07:46:52 PM
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 19, 2010, 06:26:58 PM
How can you not believe in the ALLAH .....
Because that was the pagan Arabian moon and star god.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1240.0
The God of the Christian and Jews name is YHWH which occurs nearly 7,000 times in scripture.
If you are having a little trouble wrapping your head around the origins of the name "Allah" this might help.
Are you aware that there is not a shred of historical or archaeological evidence that suggests that Mecca ever existed before immigrants from Yemen settled it in the 4th century AD, and built their kaaba for moon, sun, star and jinn-demon worship in the early 5th century?
You are avoiding the topic altogether ........
Not at all. When you post a post with several premises we have to explore them. If you don't want to, I suggest you restrict your posts to one topic. In this case why I don't believe in Mohammed's, or the pagan Arabian's god, NAMED "Allah".
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 20, 2010, 07:46:37 AM......... and regurgitating the same nonsense over and over and over again who cares what you Rafat Amari says about Arabia, .......
If you believe the absence of historical or archaeological evidence regarding Mecca has something to do with Dr. Amari, then all you have to do is bring to bear some evidence, that suggests that Mecca existed before the Christian era.
Why engage in the typical Islamic tactic of attacking the messenger, to avoid the message?
Tell us how Ishmael made it from Mecca to Hebron across 1200 KM of harsh Arabian desert most of 1000 years before the first caravan route was established along the red sea, in time for his father's burial in Hebron.
http://www.historyofmecca.com/geography_mecca.htm
What you are trying to do is launch off into irrelevant details to avoid fundamentals.
You see, if you cannot find any evidence that suggests that Mecca existed before the 4th century AD, then Mohammed's stand-alone 7th century religion goes right up in smoke.
Even some of Mohammed's closest followers knew that the Arabian rituals he adopted to Islam were nothing more than repackaged pagan jinn-demon worship rituals.
Asem told us that he said to Uns bin Malek, a companion of Mohammed, “You were hating to encompass around the Safa and Marwa.†He answered, “Yes, because it was one of the pagan rites of Jahiliyah until Allah gave a verse that the Safa and Marwa are the rites of Allah. If one makes the Hajj to the Kaabah, he must encompass them. The person has no sin when he encompass them. (Sahih al-Bukhari, 2, page 171)
http://www.petewaldo.com/hajj___umrah.htm#al_safa_al_marwah
The reason that Mohammed's "Allah" "gave a verse" for Mohammed's followers to engage in this ritual, of course, was to appease the two bandit tribes he enlisted in Medina, to attack his people. Those tribes of Medina were heavily involved in this jinn-demon worship.
AGAIN THE CONFUSION OF PREISLAM WITH ISLAM, what is this obsession you have with pagan worship, it feels like you have read more of the preislamic (ignorant period than you have of the Islamic period). ALL MUSLIMS KNOW ABOUT THE JAHILIYYAH PERIOD< THE PAGAN WORSHIP PERIOD, and how it infiltrated the teachings of the Prophets through the Romans and translators of the BIBLE. OSIRIS -Virgin birth and chastity amongst the woman,came frome pagan EGYPT and practiced during the time the bible was being compiled in Rome, MITHRA the religion of the Roman Soldier, born on the 25 of December, death and resurrection, and the main topic, discard the law of GOD as given to MOSES. If you leave out one dot of the law you will be the least in the kingdom of heaven. Most choose not to even learn the Laws of GOD, they instead choose the LAW OF THE LAND,
My interest is in a
PRE 4TH CENTURY MECCA. Please show me the evidence of one. Without any evidence that this
epicenter of Mohammed's religion supposedly since Adam existed, Mohammed's stand-alone 7th century religion is exposed as nothing more than repackaged pagan Arabian worship. You can save yourself the rest of your support for Mohammed and his "Allah" - and rejection of the God of the Jews and Christians as revealed through His 1600 year record.
Compare that
absence of evidence, with the historical and archaeological evidence of Jerusalem.
http://www.historyofmecca.com/
You missed the following in your reply. Why not try it now.
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 20, 2010, 07:46:37 AM......... and regurgitating the same nonsense over and over and over again who cares what you Rafat Amari says about Arabia, .......
If you believe the absence of historical or archaeological evidence regarding Mecca has something to do with Dr. Amari, then
all you have to do is bring to bear some evidence, that suggests that Mecca existed before the Christian era. Why engage in the typical Islamic tactic of attacking the messenger, to avoid the message?
Tell us how Ishmael made it from Mecca to Hebron across 1200 KM of harsh Arabian desert most of 1000 years before the first caravan route was established along the red sea, in time for his father's burial in Hebron.http://www.historyofmecca.com/geography_mecca.htm
(http://www.petewaldo.com/082de2a0.png)
Quote from: Peter on October 20, 2010, 03:21:29 PM
My interest is in a PRE 4TH CENTURY MECCA. Please show me the evidence of one. Without any evidence that this epicenter of Mohammed's religion supposedly since Adam existed, Mohammed's stand-alone 7th century religion is exposed as nothing more than repackaged pagan Arabian worship. You can save yourself the rest of your support for Mohammed and his "Allah" - and rejection of the God of the Jews and Christians as revealed through His 1600 year record.
Compare that absence of evidence, with the historical and archaeological evidence of Jerusalem.
http://www.historyofmecca.com/
You missed the following in your reply. Why not try it now.
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 20, 2010, 07:46:37 AM......... and regurgitating the same nonsense over and over and over again who cares what you Rafat Amari says about Arabia, .......
If you believe the absence of historical or archaeological evidence regarding Mecca has something to do with Dr. Amari, then all you have to do is bring to bear some evidence, that suggests that Mecca existed before the Christian era.
Why engage in the typical Islamic tactic of attacking the messenger, to avoid the message?
Tell us how Ishmael made it from Mecca to Hebron across 1200 KM of harsh Arabian desert most of 1000 years before the first caravan route was established along the red sea, in time for his father's burial in Hebron.
http://www.historyofmecca.com/geography_mecca.htm
(http://www.petewaldo.com/082de2a0.png)
ARE YOU QUESTIONING THE ABILITY OF A PROPHET OF GOD?
YOU ARROGANT SIMPLE MINDED IGNORAMUS, ASK YOURSELF
HOW DID MOSES SURVIVE FOR 40 YEARS IN A DESERT (OF ARABIA?) No archeological evidence that he was ever in SINAI
HOW DID NOAH SURVIVE THE FLOOD?
HOW DID JONAH SURVIVE IN THE BELLY OF WHALE?
HOW DID JESUS ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?
HOW DID A SIMPLE ARAB TRANSFORM THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE FROM DARKENESS INTO LIGHT OF THE GOD (ALLAH)?
I WILL POST THE TRUE ANSWER AFTER I HEAR YOUR BIASED OPINION THAT IS NOT BASD ON ANYTHING BIBLICAL.
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 21, 2010, 03:17:16 AM
Quote from: Peter on October 20, 2010, 03:21:29 PM
My interest is in a PRE 4TH CENTURY MECCA. Please show me the evidence of one. Without any evidence that this epicenter of Mohammed's religion supposedly since Adam existed, Mohammed's stand-alone 7th century religion is exposed as nothing more than repackaged pagan Arabian worship. You can save yourself the rest of your support for Mohammed and his "Allah" - and rejection of the God of the Jews and Christians as revealed through His 1600 year record.
Compare that absence of evidence, with the historical and archaeological evidence of Jerusalem.
http://www.historyofmecca.com/
You missed the following in your reply. Why not try it now.
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 20, 2010, 07:46:37 AM......... and regurgitating the same nonsense over and over and over again who cares what you Rafat Amari says about Arabia, .......
If you believe the absence of historical or archaeological evidence regarding Mecca has something to do with Dr. Amari, then all you have to do is bring to bear some evidence, that suggests that Mecca existed before the Christian era.
Why engage in the typical Islamic tactic of attacking the messenger, to avoid the message?
Tell us how Ishmael made it from Mecca to Hebron across 1200 KM of harsh Arabian desert most of 1000 years before the first caravan route was established along the red sea, in time for his father's burial in Hebron.
http://www.historyofmecca.com/geography_mecca.htm
(http://www.petewaldo.com/082de2a0.png)
ARE YOU QUESTIONING THE ABILITY OF A PROPHET OF GOD?
No. I follow the prophets as revealed in the record that you reject. What does that make you?
1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not
God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.Mohammed was a false prophet. Mohammed was
THE false prophet.
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
But Mohammed even came as a ravening wolf. It's a shame he was illiterate or he might have been able to better judge what he was the victim of. Though his good buddy Jabr (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=452.0) should have given him a head's up. Though Mohammed did recognize that it was a demon in the cave, but then he let his wife talk him out of it.
2Cr 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and
the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Who do you think
THE false prophet is, with 1.5 billion people following Mohammed? The tooth fairy?
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 21, 2010, 03:17:16 AMYOU ARROGANT SIMPLE MINDED IGNORAMUS, ASK YOURSELF
HOW DID MOSES SURVIVE FOR 40 YEARS IN A DESERT (OF ARABIA?) No archeological evidence that he was ever in SINAI
What evidence would people
wandering in a desert be expected to leave behind? Cities? What would they have brought with them, that they would have even been able to afford to discard?
After I posted resistingrex pointed the following scripture out to me, even in regard to their clothing
Deu 8:4
Thy raiment waxed not old upon thee, neither did thy foot swell, these forty years.
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 21, 2010, 03:17:16 AM
HOW DID NOAH SURVIVE THE FLOOD?
In a boat as the record states.
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 21, 2010, 03:17:16 AM
HOW DID JONAH SURVIVE IN THE BELLY OF WHALE?
The record is unclear as to
how, just that he did.
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 21, 2010, 03:17:16 AM
HOW DID JESUS ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?
Just the way
witnesses saw, as attested in the record (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Act&c=1&v=9&t=KJV#9).
How many
witnesses saw Mohammed ride on his flying donkey-mule? Why do you think so many Muslims left Islam when he told his tall tale? What's your excuse in this 21st century information age?
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 21, 2010, 03:17:16 AM
HOW DID A SIMPLE ARAB TRANSFORM THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE FROM DARKENESS INTO LIGHT OF THE GOD (ALLAH)?
The exact opposite is true. That's why most everywhere we find murder, mayhem and misery around the world today, we find Islam.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.Just as witnessed through your posts in here.
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 21, 2010, 03:17:16 AM
I WILL POST THE TRUE ANSWER AFTER I HEAR YOUR BIASED OPINION THAT IS NOT BASD ON ANYTHING BIBLICAL.
Rather than simply attacking (first language Arabic) Dr. Amari (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1900.msg7877#msg7877) for studying Arabia, Arab paganism, and Islam (for 20 years, 8-10 hours a day, 6 days a week, without vacation), including through original source material in the middle east, why don't you instead bring something substantive to refute it, rather than lying about the messenger?
http://www.historyofmecca.com/resources.htm
Show us some evidence that suggests that Mecca existed before the 4th century AD.http://www.historyofmecca.com/
The fact is that
you actually believe thousands of years of Islamic fictional "history"
that was all penned in the 7th and 8th century AD. And you believe that created "tradition" as if it were an actual, genuine, historical record, don't you?
Even though your own characterization (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1900.msg7916#msg7916) of a 6th century AD Arabia is that of a bunch of ignorant, illiterate, desert dwelling pagan moon, sun, star and demon worshipers, that had been cut off from the rest of the civilized world - that was quite highly developed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism) even long before (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_technology) the Christian era.
So how do you suppose - just a couple generations after Arabia was populated with ignoramuses - Mohammedan 7th and 8th century AD "tradition" creators (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1176.0), came up with a few thousand years of pre-Mohammed Islamic "history (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1317.0)"?http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1176.0
Quote from: Peter on October 21, 2010, 12:25:52 PM
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 21, 2010, 03:17:16 AM
I WILL POST THE TRUE ANSWER AFTER I HEAR YOUR BIASED OPINION THAT IS NOT BASD ON ANYTHING BIBLICAL.
Rather than simply attacking (first language Arabic) Dr. Amari (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1900.msg7877#msg7877) for studying Arabia, Arab paganism, and Islam (for 20 years, 8-10 hours a day, 6 days a week, without vacation), including through original source material in the middle east, why don't you instead bring something substantive to refute it, rather than lying about the messenger?
http://www.historyofmecca.com/resources.htm
Show us some evidence that suggests that Mecca existed before the 4th century AD.
http://www.historyofmecca.com/
The fact is that you actually believe thousands of years of Islamic fictional "history" that was all penned in the 7th and 8th century AD. And you believe that created "tradition" as if it were an actual, genuine, historical record, don't you?
Even though your own characterization (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1900.msg7916#msg7916) of a 6th century AD Arabia is that of a bunch of ignorant, illiterate, desert dwelling pagan moon, sun, star and demon worshipers, that had been cut off from the rest of the civilized world - that was quite highly developed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism) even long before (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_technology) the Christian era.
So how do you suppose - just a couple generations after Arabia was populated with ignoramuses - Mohammedan 7th and 8th century AD "tradition" creators (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1176.0), came up with a few thousand years of pre-Mohammed Islamic "history (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1317.0)"?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1176.0
VERY INTERESTING OPINION RAFAT AMARI HOLDS, and it is a great question to be studied, for that I would have to go to MAKKAH and ask the Saudis what they have unearthed, it seems the only avenue Dr Rafat has not pursued. The Saudis seem to hold a vast amount of knowledge in Arabic in the Universities that predate all the western Universities as the Arabs were the first to gather knowledge in Bagdad Call Baitul Ghikma (HOUSE OF WISDOM), much of which was destroyed by the mongols.
I will make some enquiries from the Arab kingdom, The only references to Arabia I have thus far is from the BIBLE that confirms that Ishmael and Hagar was given Arabia, Makkah is obviously mentioned but I see that you dont believe the Bible when it differs from your view.
Biblically
Arabs show up in three biblical lists of genealogy:
The descendants of Jaktan (Genesis 10:25-30)
The descendants of Abraham through Keturah (Genesis 10:1-6)
The descendants of Ishmael (Genesis 25:13-18)
(It is possible that some of the descendants of Cush, the son of Ham (Genesis 10:7) are also called Arabs.)
There seems to have been some intermingling between the tribe of Simeon and the Ishmaelites, for the clans of Mibsam and Mishma are associated with both. (Genesis 25:13 and I Chronicles 4:25).
Ishmaelites do not appear among the victims of David's raids into the lands south and east of Israel, even though these enter Arab lands. (I Samuel 27:8 and Genesis 25:18) David's sister married Jether the Ishmaelite (I Chronicles 2:17) and two of David's administrators were Obil the Ishmaelite, and Jaziz the Hagarite, (I Chronicles 27:30).
Hagar and Ishmael were given Arabia (Genesis 21:8-21) and Isaac's descendants were promised the Holy Land. Apparently they were not hostile to each other, for Ishmael and Isaac worked together to bury their father Abraham in the Cave of Macphilah, in Mamre (Genesis 25:9).
On the other hand, the Bible refers to various individuals and groups as being 'Arabs.' Jeremiah prophesied against the 'kings of the Arabs' sometime between 627 and 586 BC.
Arab Genealogists
It is the common view of Arab genealogists and modern historians that Arabs originated in the southern part of the Arabian Peninsula, and then moved northward. (James Montgomery, Arabia and the Bible, Philadelphia, University of Pennsylvania Press, 1934 and Hitti, History of the Arabs.) This view is based on the identification by Muslim Arabs of their oldest ancestor as being Qahtan, whom they identify as the biblical Jaktan. Genesis 10:25-26.
Arab Genealogists divide the Arabians into two ethnic stocks. First, the original Arabic Arabs ('aribah) and then the arabized Arabs (musta 'iribah). The Arabic Arabs are supposed to have originated with the Yamanites and are descended from Qahtan (Jaktan of the Bible) and are the original stock. The Arabized Arabs are the Hijazis, Najdis, Nabataeans, and Palmyrenes. These Arabized Arabs are supposed to have all descended from Adnan, an offspring of Ishmael.
Much is written about Arabia and very little about Makkah but then again very little detail is given about the region as it is a much disputed territory that was ruled and conquered by the strongest tribe.
I know that Makkah and its artifacts are off limits to the public as many Pagan practises creep into the objects as many consider anything from Makkah as the holiest, I worship ALLAH (AL_the ielaah GOD) not Makkah, the honor, property and blood of a believer is more sacred than Makkah and the Ka'aba (words of the Prophet)
Please give sometime but please understand that I place no weight or value in archeological finds, it is not a science and dating techniques have not nearly been perfected also ruins have very little to do with belief or holiness or sacredness the whole world is a place to pray in.
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 21, 2010, 12:53:29 PM
Quote from: Peter on October 21, 2010, 12:25:52 PM
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 21, 2010, 03:17:16 AM
I WILL POST THE TRUE ANSWER AFTER I HEAR YOUR BIASED OPINION THAT IS NOT BASD ON ANYTHING BIBLICAL.
Rather than simply attacking (first language Arabic) Dr. Amari (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1900.msg7877#msg7877) for studying Arabia, Arab paganism, and Islam (for 20 years, 8-10 hours a day, 6 days a week, without vacation), including through original source material in the middle east, why don't you instead bring something substantive to refute it, rather than lying about the messenger?
http://www.historyofmecca.com/resources.htm
Show us some evidence that suggests that Mecca existed before the 4th century AD.
http://www.historyofmecca.com/
The fact is that you actually believe thousands of years of Islamic fictional "history" that was all penned in the 7th and 8th century AD. And you believe that created "tradition" as if it were an actual, genuine, historical record, don't you?
Even though your own characterization (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1900.msg7916#msg7916) of a 6th century AD Arabia is that of a bunch of ignorant, illiterate, desert dwelling pagan moon, sun, star and demon worshipers, that had been cut off from the rest of the civilized world - that was quite highly developed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism) even long before (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_technology) the Christian era.
So how do you suppose - just a couple generations after Arabia was populated with ignoramuses - Mohammedan 7th and 8th century AD "tradition" creators (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1176.0), came up with a few thousand years of pre-Mohammed Islamic "history (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1317.0)"?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1176.0
VERY INTERESTING OPINION RAFAT AMARI HOLDS, and it is a great question to be studied, for that I would have to go to MAKKAH and ask the Saudis what they have unearthed, it seems the only avenue Dr Rafat has not pursued. The Saudis seem to hold a vast amount of knowledge in Arabic in the Universities that predate all the western Universities as the Arabs were the first to gather knowledge in Bagdad Call Baitul Ghikma (HOUSE OF WISDOM), much of which was destroyed by the mongols.
Unless I am misunderstanding you seem to be suggesting that the pre-mohammed Meccans, that even you might characterize as a bunch of illiterate pagan ignoramuses, were yet somehow responsible for penning and preserving a rich historical record of Mecca, throughout the entire prior 2,900 year period.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1176.0
Mecca is, after all, supposed to have been the geographical epicenter of Islam, allegedly since Adam (http://www.google.com/#hl=en&expIds=17259,26637,26766,26992,27023,27182&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=kaaba+built+by+%22adam%22&cp=20&pf=p&sclient=psy&aq=f&aqi=g1g-o1&aql=&oq=kaaba+built+by+%22adam&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=499faa430ac3503f).
Mecca is, after all, supposed to have been the geographical epicenter of Islam, allegedly since Adam (http://www.google.com/#hl=en&expIds=17259,26637,26766,26992,27023,27182&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=kaaba+built+by+%22adam%22&cp=20&pf=p&sclient=psy&aq=f&aqi=g1g-o1&aql=&oq=kaaba+built+by+%22adam&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=499faa430ac3503f).
[/quote]
My dear friend have you learnt nothing in the bible? are you still saying that THE GOD seperated the truth into truth for Jews Truth for Christians and the truth for Christians, have you not realized by now that prophecy (NOT THE PAGAN CHRISTIAN VERSION OF THE NEW TESTAMENT) is a continuous line of the same religion, HEAR YE YOUR LORD GOD IS ONE, SHOW ME A SINGLE PROPHET INCLUDING MUHAMMAD MAKES THIS STAEMENT CLEARLY AND AS THE BASIS FOR BELIEF, PAGAN CHRISTIANS SY NO ALL THE PROPHETS LIARS THE LORD YOUR GOD IS A SON A FATHER AND A HOLY SPIRIT, AND THE THREE ARE ONE< WHY WOULD GOD NOT STATE THIS ACROSS THE WORLD FOR ALL TO HEAR WHY KEEP IT MAINLY AMONGST EUROCENTRIC PAGANS?
Coming back to Arabia list the number of scholars that actually excavated MAKKAH, please and publish their findings.
Please do not follow the word of a biased speculator who by all accounts I thank for showing the Abrahanic proof of the BIBLE and that it co-incides and proves the QURAN AND THE HADITH AS FORETOLD IN THE BIBLE.
Blaspheming God didn't answer the question. Let's try it again.
Do you believe that the pre-mohammed Meccans, that even you might characterize as a bunch of illiterate pagan ignoramuses, were yet somehow responsible for penning and preserving a rich historical record of Mecca, throughout the entire prior 2,900 year period?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1176.0
Quote from: Peter on October 21, 2010, 03:58:55 PM
Blaspheming God didn't answer the question. Let's try it again.
Do you believe that the pre-mohammed Meccans, that even you might characterize as a bunch of illiterate pagan ignoramuses, were yet somehow responsible for penning and preserving a rich historical record of Mecca, throughout the entire prior 2,900 year period.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1176.0
ARE YOU AN ILLITERATE IGNORAMUS? The Arabs were not big on writing things down, nor were any of the other pre Islamic civilizations, very few materials were available, very few people could read and write, and there are no libraries of accurate information, most archeological finds reveal personal accounts, mostly of royalty and written in that light, to please the then ruler or die. Historians abound amongst the greeaks and Romans and persians but whom we trust is a matter of personal faith.
One thing that thereis In ARABIA is a rich history of Poetry, by your own admittance, stories were told in a sophisticated artful manner in a language that is still ahead of its time, Arabic. That why the language was chosen for revelation for mankind, (does aramaic ring a bell) The move from Aramaic scripture is an obvious ploy to get rid of the original words used by the Prophets.
ANY WAY WHY ARE YOU WASTING YOUR TIME ARGUING ABOUT ARCHEOLOGY when you are clearly not one,
I WAS UNDER THE IMPRESSION THAT THIS IS A RELIGIOUS BASED WEBSITE> I am yet to discover the love Of the one true God this your topic reads.
What does your opinion or Rafat Amaris opinion matter in light of The Quran and the Hadith that is accepted to come from a man known as AL AMEEN (the truthful One) Authentic Hadith is corroborated, show me that Rafat AMARI's Data is confirmed by known scholars, I wasted my time reading some of his writings, very nice if you want to to know the history of Pagan Arabia, useless spiritually, as he confuses the issues and miss the point of Islam completely in his opinionated assumptions.
IT DOES NOT MATTER HOW MANY TIMES HE REPEATS AN OPINION IT DOES NOT MAKE A FACT, OR BIBLICAL OR CHANGES THE QURAN OR THE MINDS OF INTELLIGENT INFORMED MUSLIMS!
YOUR ANGLE IS WAY OFF AND VERY CHILDISH.
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 21, 2010, 04:29:59 PM
Quote from: Peter on October 21, 2010, 03:58:55 PM
Blaspheming God didn't answer the question. Let's try it again.
Do you believe that the pre-mohammed Meccans, that even you might characterize as a bunch of illiterate pagan ignoramuses, were yet somehow responsible for penning and preserving a rich historical record of Mecca, throughout the entire prior 2,900 year period.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1176.0
ARE YOU AN ILLITERATE IGNORAMUS? The Arabs were not big on writing things down, nor were any of the other pre Islamic civilizations, very few materials were available, very few people could read and write, and there are no libraries of accurate information, most archeological finds reveal personal accounts, mostly of royalty and written in that light, to please the then ruler or die.
Then you recognize that all of the the "tradition" that you believe about Mecca was penned in the 7th and 8th century AD.
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 21, 2010, 04:29:59 PMHistorians abound amongst the greeaks and Romans and persians but whom we trust is a matter of personal faith.
One thing that thereis In ARABIA is a rich history of Poetry, by your own admittance, stories were told in a sophisticated artful manner in a language that is still ahead of its time, Arabic. That why the language was chosen for revelation for mankind, (does aramaic ring a bell) The move from Aramaic scripture is an obvious ploy to get rid of the original words used by the Prophets.
ANY WAY WHY ARE YOU WASTING YOUR TIME ARGUING ABOUT ARCHEOLOGY ......
We only covered history. We didn't even start on archaeology yet. Arabia has one of the richest archaeological records on earth, because the limited rainfall precludes degradation of the archaeological evidence. Even towns that came and went within a couple of centuries are attested. And the archaeological records of ancient towns attest to each other. Yet there is NOT A SHRED of evidence in that record that suggests that Mecca ever existed before the 4th century AD when pagan immigrants from Yemen settled it.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1132.0
Or that it's Kaaba existed before the early 5th century when those immigrants built it for moon, sun, star, and jinn-demon worship.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1133.0
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 21, 2010, 04:29:59 PM....... when you are clearly not one,
I WAS UNDER THE IMPRESSION THAT THIS IS A RELIGIOUS BASED WEBSITE> .......
It is. But if someone comes proclaiming a religion, that has no historical basis whatsoever, that demonstrates it is nothing more than a cult. Belief without foundation. That's why the bible proclaims
1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
And why Mohammed proclaimed
"Allah has hated for you three things: ... 3. And asking too many questions (in disputed religious matters)." (Dr. Khan, Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol. 2, #555)
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 21, 2010, 04:29:59 PM....... I am yet to discover the love Of the one true God this your topic reads.
But you have resisted it at every turn, and prefer to blaspheme the Savior of the world, instead. I show you the truth and you cast it asunder.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=877.msg7950#msg7950
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 21, 2010, 04:29:59 PM
What does your opinion or Rafat Amaris opinion matter in light of The Quran and the Hadith that is accepted to come from a man known as AL AMEEN (the truthful One) Authentic Hadith is corroborated, show me that Rafat AMARI's Data is confirmed by known scholars, I wasted my time reading some of his writings, very nice if you want to to know the history of Pagan Arabia, useless spiritually, as he confuses the issues and miss the point of Islam completely in his opinionated assumptions.
IT DOES NOT MATTER HOW MANY TIMES HE REPEATS AN OPINION IT DOES NOT MAKE A FACT, OR BIBLICAL OR CHANGES THE QURAN OR THE MINDS OF INTELLIGENT INFORMED MUSLIMS!
YOUR ANGLE IS WAY OFF AND VERY CHILDISH.
Indeed it doesn't change the Quran!
What it does do is show that Mohammed's religious rituals are nothing more than repackaged pagan Arabian moon, sun, star and jinn-demon worship, as even some of Mohammed's closest followers acknowledged.
Asem told us that he said to Uns bin Malek, a companion of Mohammed, “You were hating to encompass around the Safa and Marwa.†He answered, “
Yes, because it was one of the pagan rites of Jahiliyah until Allah gave a verse that the Safa and Marwa are the rites of Allah. If one makes the Hajj to the Kaabah, he must encompass them. The person has no sin when he encompass them. (Sahih al-Bukhari, 2, page 171)
Indeed it doesn't change the Quran!
What it does do is show that Mohammed's religious rituals are nothing more than repackaged pagan Arabian moon, sun, star and jinn-demon worship, as even some of Mohammed's closest followers acknowledged.
Asem told us that he said to Uns bin Malek, a companion of Mohammed, “You were hating to encompass around the Safa and Marwa.†He answered, “Yes, because it was one of the pagan rites of Jahiliyah until Allah gave a verse that the Safa and Marwa are the rites of Allah. If one makes the Hajj to the Kaabah, he must encompass them. The person has no sin when he encompass them. (Sahih al-Bukhari, 2, page 171)
[/quote]
This why I feel so sorry for you, tsk tsk tsk
Volume 2, Book 26, Number 710:
Narrated 'Asim:
I asked Anas bin Malik: "Did you use to dislike to perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa?" He said, "Yes, as it was of the ceremonies of the days of the Pre-lslamic period of ignorance, till Allah revealed: 'Verily! (The two mountains) As-Safa and Al-Marwa are among the symbols of Allah. It is therefore no sin for him who performs the pilgrimage to the Ka'ba, or performs 'Umra, to perform Tawaf between them.' " (2.158)
Volume 2, Book 26, Number 706:
Narrated 'Urwa:
I asked 'Aisha : "How do you interpret the statement of Allah,. : Verily! (the mountains) As-Safa and Al-Marwa are among the symbols of Allah, and whoever performs the Hajj to the Ka'ba or performs 'Umra, it is not harmful for him to perform Tawaf between them (Safa and Marwa.) (2.158). By Allah! (it is evident from this revelation) there is no harm if one does not perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa." 'Aisha said, "O, my nephew! Your interpretation is not true. Had this interpretation of yours been correct, the statement of Allah should have been, 'It is not harmful for him if he does not perform Tawaf between them.' But in fact, this divine inspiration was revealed concerning the Ansar who used to assume lhram for worship ping an idol called "Manat" which they used to worship at a place called Al-Mushallal before they embraced Islam, and whoever assumed Ihram (for the idol), would consider it not right to perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa.
When they embraced Islam, they asked Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) regarding it, saying, "O Allah's Apostle! We used to refrain from Tawaf between Safa and Marwa." So Allah revealed: 'Verily; (the mountains) As-Safa and Al-Marwa are among the symbols of Allah.' " Aisha added, "Surely, Allah's Apostle set the tradition of Tawaf between Safa and Marwa, so nobody is allowed to omit the Tawaf between them." Later on I ('Urwa) told Abu Bakr bin 'Abdur-Rahman (of 'Aisha's narration) and he said, 'i have not heard of such information, but I heard learned men saying that all the people, except those whom 'Aisha mentioned and who used to assume lhram for the sake of Manat, used to perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa.
When Allah referred to the Tawaf of the Ka'ba and did not mention Safa and Marwa in the Quran, the people asked, 'O Allah's Apostle! We used to perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa and Allah has revealed (the verses concerning) Tawaf of the Ka'ba and has not mentioned Safa and Marwa. Is there any harm if we perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa?' So Allah revealed: "Verily As-Safa and Al-Marwa are among the symbols of Allah." Abu Bakr said, "It seems that this verse was revealed concerning the two groups, those who used to refrain from Tawaf between Safa and Marwa in the Pre-lslamic Period of ignorance and those who used to perform the Tawaf then, and after embracing Islam they refrained from the Tawaf between them as Allah had enjoined Tawaf of the Ka'ba and did not mention Tawaf (of Safa and Marwa) till later after mentioning the Tawaf of the Ka'ba.'
Please reference your quotations correctly.
STOP REGURGITATING IGNORANT RHETORIC THAT IS WRITTEN TO MAKE YOU APPEAR LIKE THE SCRIBES AND PHARISEES JESUS WARNED US ABOUT.
Repackaged nothing, Jinns are clearly explained and we are warned to guard ourselves against them,
Everything is clear in the Quran and Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad, every answer one needs concerning all the Prophets of THE GOD ALLAH.
IT IS TIME TO ASK THE RIGHT QUESTIONS PETER,
I PRAY FOR GUIDANCE EVERYDAY, FIVE TIMES A DAY APPROXIMATELY 12 Times I ASK FOR THE FOLLOWING.
O' ALLAH GUIDE US ON THE STRAIGHT PATH THE PATH OF THE RIGHTLY GUIDE (PROPHETS AND SAINTS AND THE DESCIPLES OF JESUS)
Quote from: Peter on October 21, 2010, 04:46:46 PM
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 21, 2010, 04:29:59 PM....... when you are clearly not one,
I WAS UNDER THE IMPRESSION THAT THIS IS A RELIGIOUS BASED WEBSITE> .......
It is. But if someone comes proclaiming a religion, that has no historical basis whatsoever, that demonstrates it is nothing more than a cult. Belief without foundation. That's why the bible proclaims
1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
Many Scholars have from recent archeological finds concluded that PARAN is MAkkah here is one of them, Mount Sinai is in Makkah and has proven that the interpretation of many of the Gospels have been falsified by the then BIASED SCHOLARS, myth seem to have become fact with repition.
WAS PARAN MAKKAH OR NEAR MAKKAH???
The Ishmaelites were Arabs and not Egyptians. They came from the Arabian desert; "As they sat down to eat their meal, they looked up and saw a caravan of Ishmaelites coming from Gilead. Their camels were loaded with spices, balm and myrrh, and they were on their way to take them down to Egypt. (From the NIV Bible, Genesis 37:25)" "take them down to Egypt" means taking them to the land of Egypt. It doesn't mean taking them toward the south direction. When for instance you say "my house is right down the street", it doesn't mean the house is south of the street. The house could be on the north side. The sentence means that the house is on the street, or will be found if the person walks in the path that you lead him to.
The point however in the above Verse is that the Ishmaelites were not from Egypt. They came from another land. They had loaded camels and they were heading to Egypt. Arabs used to rely heavily on camels for traveling. And as we've seen from the above Verses regarding Ishmael and his Mother (Hagar) living in the desert of Paran in the South, this clearly proves to us that the desert of Paran is located in Arabia and not in Egypt, since the Ishmaelites are not Egyptians.
Mecca, Bacca and Paran:
Let me paste for you the following Verses from the Bible and the Noble Quran:
"Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee; in whose heart are the ways of them. Who passing through the valley of Baca make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools. (From the NIV Bible, Psalms 84:5-6)"
"The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings: In it are signs manifest; (for example) the Station of Abraham; whoever enters it attains security; pilgrimage thereto is a duty men owe to Allah those who can afford the journey; but if any deny faith Allah stands not in need of any of his creatures. (The Noble Quran, 3:96-97)"
"And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is. Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation. And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink. And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer. And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt. (From the NIV Bible, Genesis 21:17-21)"
More Verses on Paran:
"Then the Israelites set out from the Desert of Sinai and traveled from place to place until the cloud came to rest in the Desert of Paran. (From the NIV Bible, Numbers 10:12)" Here the desert of Paran means the region of Paran, which would be either at or near Mecca.
"After that, the people left Hazeroth and encamped in the Desert of Paran. (From the NIV Bible, Numbers 12:16)" Here the desert of Paran means the region of Paran, which would be either at or near Mecca.
"So at the LORD's command Moses sent them out from the Desert of Paran. All of them were leaders of the Israelites. (From the NIV Bible, Numbers 13:3)"
"These are the words Moses spoke to all Israel in the desert east of the Jordan--that is, in the Arabah--opposite Suph, between Paran and Tophel, Laban, Hazeroth and Dizahab. (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 1:1)"
Kaabah (the cube black building in Mecca) and Mecca:
Atharva Veda X, 2, Mantras 28 and 31
28. Whether it is built high, its walls are in a straight line or not, but God is seen in every corner of it. He who knows the House of God, knows it because God is remembered there.
31. This abode of the angels has eight circuits and nine gates. It is unconquerable, there is eternal life in it and it is resplendent with Divine light.
The Ka'bah is not exactly cubical and its sides are not of the same length. The Holy Sanctuary (Haram) of which Ka'abah is at the center remains open day and night throughout the year and it is always filled with people praying and supplicating to Allah (the One True God). Muslims face toward it during prayer forming circle in the Haram (Holy House) and the circle extends out in this manner throughout the planet Earth.
The holy sanctuary (Haram) has remained unconquerable. Abraha al-Ashram, the Abbysinian viceroy of Yemen, tried to demolish it in 570 CE with a strong army and hordes of elephants but was prevented from entering the city (Holy precinct). The people of Makkah had decided not to defend the Ka'bah, fled the city and took refuge in nearby hills overlooking Ka'bah. By Allah's Command, the 'Abaabeel' (flying creatures, birds) pelted stones at Abraha's army and decimated it, leaving them like green crops devoured by cattle.
This incident is described in the Surah (chapter) 105 of the Qur'an. The year 570 CE is popularly known by the Arabs as 'The year of the Elephant,' and Prophet Muhammad was born in that year.
Paul in the book of Galatians and the most recent Archeological Discoveries suggest that Mount Sinai is in Saudi Arabia and NOT in Egypt's Sinai desert:
Recent archeological discoveries along with Paul's own words in Galatians 4:25 clearly suggest that Mount Sinai is located in Saudi Arabia. This means that Paran being south of Mount Sinai clearly means that it is the Holy City of Mecca as I showed above:
The Bible clearly says that Paran is south of Sinai in Egypt; "He said: 'The LORD came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran. He came with myriads of holy ones from the south, from his mountain slopes.' (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 33:2)"
This verse is elaborated on further above. Now, let us first look at Galatians 4:25, then the archeological evidence:
"Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. (From the NIV Bible, Galatians 4:25)"
From http://www.carm.org/questions/desert.htm
Why isn't there any record of millions of Jews wandering in the desert?
There has been a lot of speculation on the route of the Exodus and why the traditional site hasn't yielded any archaeological evidence. After all, if two million people wander in a desert for forty years, you'd think that at least something would be found to support it. But, nothing at all has been unearthed in the Sinai Peninsula supporting the biblical account of the Exodus. Various explanations for this range from the idea that it is naturally difficult to find any archeological evidence in a desert of sand to the explanation that the traditional site is the wrong one.
First of all, no archaeological find has ever contradicted the Bible. Archaeology has only confirmed what the Bible says. As has been the case with so many other things in the Bible, as archaeology progresses, they will most certainly uncover evidence in the future. The Bible has yet to be proven wrong by archaeology.
Second, lack of evidence doesn't mean there wasn't an Exodus. However, this is a slippery slope since having a lack of evidence for an ice cream factory on Jupiter doesn't mean that there is one. What we need is evidence and it is fair to say that there should be some evidence for the wanderings of two million people for forty years in a desert.
Third, it may be that the traditional site of Mt. Sinai is incorrect. Gal. Gal. 4:25 says "Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children." Present theories dealing with Mt. Sinai's location have it in the Sinai Peninsula, yet the Bible says it was in Arabia. The map to the right shows the traditionally accepted route (in black) and the currently accepted location of Mt. Sinai. The problem is that there has been absolutely no archaeological evidence unearthed at that site to verify the Exodus. The route in red shows an alternate path that is consistent with Paul's description in Gal. 4:25. This would have Mt. Sinai be in Arabia, which is now Saudi Arabia, instead of the traditionally accepted Sinai peninsula.
In a recent book titled "In search of the Mountain of God," by Bob Cornuke and David Halbrook (Broadman and Holman, 2000), Bob Cornuke (a Christian) recounts his story of going into Saudi Arabia with his friend Larry Williams (a non-Christian commodities trader). They uncovered evidence of an alternate site where the real Mt. Sinai might be. Bob Cornuke was a police officer, swat team member, and crime scene investigator in Southern California and is the President of the Bible Archaeology Search and Exploration (BASE) Institute BaseInstitute.org. He and Mr. Williams have produced a video and book (available on that site) where they claim to have found evidence in Saudi Arabia to support that Mt. Sinai is located within its borders. Now, I must admit that this has not been verified by any "official" archaeologists, but the video, which I have seen, does raise some interesting possibilities.
Mr. Cornuke and Williams claim to have simply let the Bible guide them as they attempted to locate the actual route of the Jews of the Exodus. Through trial and error over several weeks, they followed what they believed was the route as is laid out by the Bible and they found the items described in Exodus 13 - 19 including, springs, a split rock, an altar, an underwater land bridge at the end of the Sinai Peninsula where the people of Israel could have crossed, and much more. The present location of Mt. Sinai, according to the locals in their account, is known as Jabal Al Laws as is traditionally known by them as the mount of Moses. The Saudis have the area fenced off with warning signs in Arabic and English telling people not to enter. If this is so, why would the Saudis not want anyone to know about the place? It might be because if Mt. Sinai is located in Muslim territory then one of the most holy places of the Jewish and Christian religions it could pose serious political problems.
I must admit that this is speculative at present and it has not been verified. But the video was compelling. Whether or not this is a valid option is yet to be determined and it is supportive of the idea that the traditional location of Exodus route might indeed be incorrect, as Gal. 4:25 seems to suggest.
Christian Archeologists prove from the Bible that Mount Sinai is in "Saudi Arabia" today:
From http://www.baseinstitute.org/Sinai_1.html
Is Mount SINAI in the SINAI?
For centuries Bible scholars and religious pilgrims have been seeking the location of the real Mt. Sinai.Today, most people are unaware that not one piece of hard evidence has been produced to verify thatwhat is traditionally designated at “Mount Sinai†in the south central Sinai Peninsula is indeed thefamed mountain of Moses and the Exodus. In fact, the only verifiable reason that the traditional site is designated “Mount Sinai†at all is because a Roman mystic designated it and Helena, mother of Constantine I, anointed it as the true Mount Sinai early in the 4th century AD. (Helena also claimed she discovered the true “holy sepulchre†in Jerusalem and the true cross of Christ.)
Several other proposed sites for the true Mount Sinai have been suggested by biblical scholars, but thus far they have produced no archaeological evidence to support them. If we are ever to discern a correct location for the historical events recorded in the biblical Book of Exodus, it’s important to use the Scriptures as a guide, just as we would use any ancient documents that have proven reliable in the past.
In the New Testament, Paul wrote in Galatians 4:25, “Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia . . .â€Although some argue that here the Roman designation of Arabia includes the Sinai Peninsula, Arabia in Paul’s day encompassed a larger region that primarily designated the populated regions of ancient Midian, or modern-day Saudi Arabia. As a “Hebrew of Hebrews,†Paul’s understanding of Arabia would have been one that was consistent with Old Testament passages like 1 Kings 10:15, 2 Chronicles 9:14, Isaiah 21:13, Jeremiah 25:24, and Ezekiel 27:21, in which Arabia is clearly identified with the region east of the Gulf of Aqaba, where “kings†ruled and the “Dedanites†co-dwelt with other nomadic peoples.
Even more telling, Exodus 3:1 plainly identifies Mount Horeb (Sinai) as being in Midian: “Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God.†Here, there are two important issues. First, the region of “Midian†referred to here is undeniably the same as present-day Saudi Arabia. Second, at the traditional site of Mt. Sinai on the Sinai Peninsula, there is nothing that would cause it to be geographically identified with the “back†of a desert, in distinction from its surroundings. By contrast, the site proposed by BASE Institute is, indeed, on the far side or margin of a vast desert in ancient Midian.
However, can ancient Midian be identified with the Sinai Peninsula, which in the time of Moses, was considered a part of Egypt (although designated as the “wilderness†of Egypt)? It is apparent from Exodus 2:15 that the two were separate entities. After killing an Egyptian, Moses fled Egypt for safer ground: “When Pharaoh heard of this, he tried to kill Moses, but Moses fled from Pharaoh and went to live in Midian.†Egypt and its holdings would not have been safe for Moses under any circumstances. He would not have fled to the Sinai Peninsula, where archaeology shows that Pharaoh had multiple mining interests and military outposts. The Bible is clear that Moses went out of Egypt, to the land of Midian east of the gulf of Aqaba.
The Bible makes several references to Moses returning to Egypt from Midian, including Exodus 4:19 where we read, “Now the Lord had said to Moses in Midian, ‘Go back to Egypt, for all the men who wanted to kill you are dead.†All passages associated with Moses’ stay in Midian point toward present-day Saudi Arabia as the area to which Moses fled, subsequently met God at the burning bush, and then returned with the children of Israel.
Because so many Bible references as well as archaeological evidence (or the lack of it) pointed away from traditional Mount Sinai and toward Saudi Arabia as the location of the historical mountain of Moses, a site inspection was necessary to determine if other evidence could be found to support this theory. Saudi Arabia’s closed borders made it impossible for a team of scholars and archaeologists to enter the country. As a result, Larry Williams and I surreptitiously slipped into the country, traced what appears to be the Exodus route, and climbed the mountain which many scholars now consider to be the true Mount Sinai.
What follows is a condensed account of our adventures, our findings, and how these relate directly to the Bible.
From http://www.baseinstitute.org/Sinai_2.html
Mt. Sinai - the Evidence
RED SEA CROSSING SITE In 1 Kings 9:26, the Bible tells us, “King Solomon also built ships at Ezion Geber, which is near Elath in Edom, on the shore of the Red Sea.†This verse provides us with some compelling clues. First, Solomon had his port at Elath (modern Eilat) on the shores of the northern tip of the Gulf of Aqaba (which forms the eastern “finger†of the Red Sea proper). The NIV Study Bible references this verse as follows: “Red Sea. The Hebrew for this term, normally read as Yam Suph (‘sea of reeds’), refers to the body of water through which the Israelites passed at the time of the Exodus. It can also be read, however, as Yam Soph (‘sea of land’s end’), a more likely reading when referring to the Red Sea, and especially . . . to its eastern arm, the Gulf of Aqaba.â€
This could well mean that the “sea of land’s end,†at the tip of the Sinai Peninsula, was the site of the Israelites’ crossing. At the very least, the use of the same Hebrew term both for the place where the Israelites crossed and for the Gulf of Aqaba at Elath shows that the body of water in question is not an isolated lake, but includes the bulk of what we know as the Red Sea.
BITTER LAKES: Many scholars suggest that the actual crossing of the “sea of reeds†was in the Bitter Lakes region, north of the Gulf of Suez, where some observers have claimed that wind can cause the lake level to fluctuate several feet. However, this simply is not consistent with numerous other Biblical references, including the account of an entire, Egypt-engulfing locust swarm being blown into Yam Suph (Exodus 10:19), Solomon sailing a fleet of ships on Yam Suph (1 Kings 9:26), and the description of the way in which Pharaoh’s soldiers died at Yam Suph: “But You blew with your breath, and the sea covered them. They sank like lead in the mighty waters†(Exodus 15:10). The Bitter Lakes region is a marsh with no mighty waters. At the tip of the Sinai Peninsula, however, at the entrance of the Gulf of Aqaba, the “mighty waters†of the Red Sea can reach incredible fury and awesome depths.
TRADITIONAL MOUNT SINAI: Having visited the traditional Mount Sinai in the southern Sinai Peninsula, I have seen first hand that the only place the Israelites could possibly have camped was a small, flat valley area adjacent to the mountain, allowing for only about one square yard per person (assuming that roughly 2 million people were involved in the Exodus). And despite extensive archeological investigation throughout the region, nothing has ever been found that can conclusively be tied to the Exodus of the Hebrews from Egypt - or can even argue for a large population of people ever occupying the area.
UNDERWATER LAND BRIDGE: Following a theory that the route of the Exodus actually took the Hebrews past (not through) the bitter Lakes and then southward along the west coast of the Sinai Peninsula, we traveled to the tip of the Sinai and explored the underwater topography (bathymetry) of the Strait of Tiran, where the Gulf of Aqaba is narrowest between the Sinai Peninsula and Saudi Arabia. There we found that an underwater land bridge exists that today is so problematic for shipping that two separate routes or “lanes†are designated for northbound and southbound ships to pass through. Further correlation of the Bible’s account of the route of the Exodus causes us to realize that this unusual submarine formation may well have been trod by the Hebrews themselves.
BITTER SPRINGS OF MARAH: Exploring the further possibility that the Israelites passed through the waters of the Red Sea at the Strait of Tiran, we picked up our search for landmarks on the Saudi Arabia side of the Gulf of Aqaba. There we started at the coastline on the eastern side of the Strait of Tiran and traveled the most natural route approximately 30 kilometers inland to a group of springs, where the water in some of the springs was terribly bitter. Exodus 15:22-23 tells us, “So Moses brought Israel from the Red Sea; then they went out into the wilderness of Shur. And they went three days in the wilderness and found no water. Now when they came to Marah, they could not drink the waters of Marah, for they were bitter.â€
THE 70 PALMS AND 12 SPRINGS OF ELIM: As we traveled generally toward Jabal al Lawz (the Saudi Arabian mountain that is held by generations of Bedouins to be the mountain of Moses), we next encountered a group of clear water springs, with a grove of palm trees adjacent to them. We marveled at the description in Exodus 15:27: “Then they came to Elim, where there were twelve wells of water and seventy palm trees; so they camped there by the waters.â€
CAVES OF MOSES: While at the springs, we discovered that some nearby caves were being excavated by Saudi archaeologists. A worker at the site said that writings found in the caves indicated that the prophet Musa (Moses) had come through this area with his nation of Hebrews.
CHARRED PEAK AND MELTED ROCK: Continuing to Jabal al Lawz, and after a great deal of maneuvering to gain access to the mountain, we found the top of the mountain to be thoroughly blackened, as if the rocks had been severely scorched from without. When we broke open the rocks, we found that they were actually granite rocks with a blackened “rind†and an untouched core of pure granite inside. We had already read in Exodus 19:18, “Now Mount Sinai was completely in smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire . . . .â€
BOUNDARY MARKERS: As we explored further around the base of the mountain, we discovered large piles of rocks arranged in a semicircle around the front of the mountain, spaced about every 400 yards. Measuring about five feet high and 20 feet across, these piles could be the boundary markers set up by Moses, as he had been instructed by God: “. . . You warned us saying, ‘set bounds around the mountain and consecrate it’†(Exodus 19:23).
GOLDEN CALF ALTAR: In a flat area at the base of the mountain we also discovered that large boulders had been placed together, creating an altar-like formation 30 feet tall and 30 feet across - quite possibly the altar where the golden calf was set up and worshiped by God’s disobedient people. On the rocks were etched ancient drawings of a bull god, as described in Exodus 32:4, where Aaron “. . . received the gold from the hand, and he fashioned it with an engraving tool, and made a molded calf.â€
More Evidence follows on the next page including information on the golden calf, the split rock at Horeb, the 12 pillars, Moses' altar and Elijah's cave.
From http://www.baseinstitute.org/Sinai_3.html
Mt. Sinai - More Evidence
GOLDEN CALF ALTAR: In a flat area at the base of the mountain we also discovered that large boulders had been placed together, creating an altar-like formation 30 feet tall and 30 feet across - quite possibly the altar where the golden calf was set up and worshiped by God’s disobedient people. On the rocks were etched ancient drawings of a bull god, as described in Exodus 32:4, where Aaron “. . . received the gold from the hand, and he fashioned it with an engraving tool, and made a molded calf.â€
MOSES' ALTAR and the 12 PILLARS: At the foot of the mountain we found a V-shaped altar, with each arm approximately 60 feet long and 20 feet wide. Next to it were several toppled pillars in sections measuring about 22 inches in diameter and 20 inches in length. Exodus 24:4 records that Moses “. . . built an altar at the foot of the mountain, and twelve pillars according to the twelve tribes of Israel.â€
SPLIT ROCK AT HOREB: (Full credit for verification and documentation of the split rock at Horeb goes to Jim and Penny Caldwell, who conducted their research while living in Saudi Arabia.) One of the most startling discoveries at Jabal al Lawz was a massive, prominent, split rock on the west side of Jabal al Lawz, which showed evidence of gushing water from within - jagged rocks that had been smoothed off by an abundant flow of water. Exodus 17:6 records God’s instructions to Moses when the Israelites were dying of thirst in the wilderness: “Behold, I will stand before you there on the rock in Horeb; and you shall strike the rock, and water will come out of it, that the people may drink.â€
CAVE OF ELIJAH: High on the mountain was a cave by which Elijah may have stood to hear God’s voice, as described in 1 Kings 19:18b, 13b: “. . . and he went . . . as far as Horeb, the mountain of God . . . . and he went out and stood in the entrance of the cave . . . .â€
This expedition yielded the first of a wealth of compelling new evidence, to suggest that the Strait of Tiran on the Gulf of Aqaba was the crossing point for the route of the Exodus, and that Jabal al Lawz in Saudi Arabia is the true Mount Sinai.
The real significance in all this is that the Bible again has apparently been shown to be true, reliable, and accurate, down to the smallest historical detail. Critics who claim that the Bible does not coincide with known history and geography are again shown to be wrong once the physical evidence begins to surface. The account in the Bible is true, and the implications are incredible.
God descended on Mount Sinai in flames like a furnace. He spoke to Moses and gave him the Ten Commandments as the laws for the life of Israel. He communicated His love and mercy through the laws for sacrifice and atonement. And though we are unworthy, He gave us the opportunity to enter into a personal, caring relationship with the Eternal Father.
The exploits of the BASE Institute team may sound like a treasure hunt to others, but a more important adventure awaits those who would seek out the treasures of the Word of God. The Bible reveals His plan for reconciliation - and the most important discovery any of us can ever make is how to begin a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. This is the best adventure.
Muhammad in the Bible, (Isaiah 60), Pilgrimage to Mecca..!
Muhammad in the Bible, (Isaiah 60), Pilgrimage to Mecca..!
References/Links:
http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-say/ch6.10.html
http://users.erols.com/zenithco/comparekjv.html
Prominent Saudi Prince follows Moses Exodus Saga.
Our thesis that Moses’ journey started in Yemen and followed the tectonic line of volcanoes to the Holiest City of Islam, MAKKAH seems to have caused somewhat of a stir in the Kingdom and left the Israelis cold.
In a private note, a prominent member of the Saudi Royal family has asked to be kept in touch with further developments not only regarding the Exodus but also our thesis that the Temples of Jerusalem were never built on the Temple Mount but rather in their more logical position some 600 ft. further south over the City’s only natural supply of water, The Gihon Spring in the City of Jerusalem.
I will keep you posted on the developments in the Muslim and Arab world. The material has already been translated and posted on the internet in Urdu and Arabic.
Islam has claimed that the coming of Mohammed was foretold in the Bible in the following verse:
"And this is the blessing wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death and he said, 'The Lord came from Sinai and dawned from Mount Seir upon them; he shone forth from Mount Paran he came from ten thousands of holy ones: with flaming fire at his right hand. Yea, he loved His people; all those consecrated to him were in his hand: so they followed in thy feet, receiving direction from thee, when Moses commanded us a law, as a possession for the congregation of Jacob. Thus the Lord became King in Jeshurun when the heads of the people were gathered, all the tribes of Israel together." (Deuteronomy 33:1-5).
The controversy naturally revolves around any independent evidence that Paran was in the vicinity of Makkah.
We have already cited a medieval geographer on that score but one cannot be sure whether the identification was real or an attempt to strengthen the thesis that Mohammed was mentioned in the Bible. We would expect therefore that Muslims would favor that identification. In fact it is now taken for granted by the Muslim world. Perhaps that is the reason why the Saudis have expressed more interest in the thesis than the Israelis. However it does cause Islam a problem which they have preferred not to address over the centuries. For, if they accept Paran as Makkah, then they MUST at the same time accept that the Exodus took place in Saudi Arabia .
What is puzzling is that we cannot find any Islamic commentator who has taken the next and only logical next step. IF Mekkah is Paran then the Exodus MUST have taken place in Arabia . We have seen no Islamic commentator make that obvious conclusion.
What is much more startling is that Yemeni Jewish sages also identified Paran with Mekkah, surely against their interests and biases. The argument has been posited that Yemeni Jews for their own protection would not want to rock the boat and that as the rise of Islam was undoubtedly a major world event in history and they believe that all such events are predicted in the Torah, they would have no problem is accepting the Muslim interpretation.
I will leave the reader to decide whether that is sufficient justification for Jewish sages to have accepted the identification that Paran is Makkah.
Ever,
Mike
September 2002
California
This is one of many scholars with PhD's that have written and proven from archeological evidence that Paran and the Biblical prophecy about the light that will be coming is foretelling of Muhammad the messenger of ALLAH.
When are you going to put a little effort into learning how the quote function operates? Are you happy with the way your posts turn out? If you don't understand something at this link just ask. http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=39.0
Also the search function works very well in this forum. Before initiating a subject please to a key word search there.
Blaspheming God's Word by copy and pasting the stupidity of others, won't magically create a 2900 year history for Mohammed's phony 7th century repackaged 6th century paganism, when you now already understand that no pre-Mohammed historical record could possibly exist.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1900.msg7951#msg7951
Even the alternate location of Mt. Sinai is still 1,000 kilometers from Mecca, and the times of Ishmael were about 900 years before the first caravan route was established along the Red Sea in Arabia.
Discuss this Paran foolishness on its own thread at the link, after reading the posts of the others that tried the same nonsense.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1483.0
Perhaps next you will be trying to present the Baca is Mecca dung load.
You are squandering your time chasing foolish nonsense, while you reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
The hour is late. You could die today, my friend.
Quote from: Peter on October 22, 2010, 05:43:50 AM
When are you going to put a little effort into learning how the quote function operates? Are you happy with the way your posts turn out? If you don't understand something at this link just ask. http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=39.0
Also the search function works very well in this forum. Before initiating a subject please to a key word search there.
Blaspheming God's Word by copy and pasting the stupidity of others, won't magically create a 2900 year history for Mohammed's phony 7th century repackaged 6th century paganism, when you now already understand that no pre-Mohammed historical record could possibly exist.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1900.msg7951#msg7951
Even the alternate location of Mt. Sinai is still 1,000 kilometers from Mecca, and the times of Ishmael were about 900 years before the first caravan route was established along the Red Sea in Arabia.
Discuss this Paran foolishness on its own thread at the link, after reading the posts of the others that tried the same nonsense.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1483.0
Perhaps next you will be trying to present the Baca is Mecca dung load.
You are squandering your time chasing foolish nonsense, while you reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
The hour is late. You could die today, my friend.
AGAIN I ASK YOU NOT TELL LIES TO THIS FORUM
AGAIN YOU PERSIST WITH YOU IGNORANT APPROACH
THERe IS NO GOSPEL ACCORDING TO JESUS!
WHY WOULD YOU ACCEPT ONE LONE UNSUBSTANTIATED SCHOLARS OPINION AND NOT MULTIPLE SCHOLARS THAT CONCUR? YOUR BIASE IS TOO DEEP ROOTED TO HAVE A MEANINGFUL CONVERSATION WITH YOU>
THIS ENTIRE WEBSITE IS FILLED WITH OPINION CONJECTURE< ASSUMPTIONS AND MISGUIDANCE
THERE IS NO STORY THAT MAKES SENSE AND IF YOU DO PRESENT SAMSON A VALID BIBLICAL STORY ONE IS DISMISSED
WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM< YOU NEED PROFESSIONAL HELP< YOUR EGO AND DISBELIEF (SATAN) HAS SUCH A STRONG GRIUP ON YOU THAT YOU ARE MADE DEAF DUMB AND BLIND TO THE TRUTH>
YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE WASTING TIME HERE< REPENT IN THE NAME OF YOUR CREATOR AND SUSTAINER< REPENT AND RETURN TO THE COMMAND OF YOUR LORD GOD IS ONE (NO SON AND DEFINITELY NOT A GHOST OR SPIRIT THAT IS SATAN)
My friend, it is you that has failed to present a pre-Mohammed historical record of Mecca. Your next adventure of pretending that the Old Testament is about Mecca won't magically create a 2900 year historical record of Mecca either. Nor will hurling unfounded accusations.
You have been shown, that those that you yourself correctly believe to have been 6th century illiterate pagan ignoramuses before Mohammed, couldn't possibly have penned, nor preserved, a historical record of Mecca. Let alone a 2900 year steady stream of ignoramuses before them, penning and preserving a history of Mecca (that the actual record suggests wasn't even settled until the 4th century AD). Nor does any such record exist.
Therefore even you understand, that all of the Islamic "tradition" that you have been indoctrinated to believe about Mecca, Abraham, Hagar and Ishmael is all created 7th and 8th century fictional poppycock.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1176.0
As much as you repeatedly try to make it about Dr. Amari, even you can see the ridiculous notion of believing there is a historical record of Mecca, that preceded Mohammed. All Dr. Amari did is point out, that this fact is also confirmed through the actual historical and archaeological records of Arabia.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=56.0
I'm sorry you don't like it my friend, but surely by now even you can see, that is simply the way it is.
Mecca was, is, and will always remain, over 1200 kilometers away from THE Holy Land.
Quote from: Peter on October 22, 2010, 06:52:39 AM
My friend, it is you that has failed to present a pre-Mohammed historical record of Mecca. Your next adventure of pretending that the Old Testament is about Mecca won't magically create a 2900 year historical record of Mecca either. Nor will hurling unfounded accusations.
You have been shown, that those that you yourself correctly believe to have been 6th century illiterate pagan ignoramuses before Mohammed, couldn't possibly have penned, nor preserved, a historical record of Mecca. Let alone a 2900 year steady stream of ignoramuses before them, penning and preserving a history of Mecca (that the actual record suggests wasn't even settled until the 4th century AD). Nor does any such record exist.
Therefore even you understand, that all of the Islamic "tradition" that you have been indoctrinated to believe about Mecca, Abraham, Hagar and Ishmael is all created 7th and 8th century fictional poppycock.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1176.0
As much as you repeatedly try to make it about Dr. Amari, even you can see the ridiculous notion of believing there is a historical record of Mecca, that preceded Mohammed. All Dr. Amari did is point out, that this fact is also confirmed through the actual historical and archaeological records of Arabia.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=56.0
I'm sorry you don't like it my friend, but surely by now even you can see, that is simply the way it is.
Mecca was, is, and will always remain, over 1200 kilometers away from THE Holy Land.
My dear Peter, no amount of truth will change your hard headed misguided interpretations and opinions, your heart has hardened and this is evident from all the posts I have read, indicate, you quote the Bible but you do not believe the verse, you talk about Jesus but you seem to have no inclination as to what Jesus expects from you, you have absolutely no motivation to speak the truth.
1. No opinion but yours matter (Arrogant Ignoramus)
2. Quoting verse of verse indicates knowing of the lines but not understanding its meaning or purpose
3. Slander and hate speech towards someone that introduce over 2 billion people to Jesus and all the Prophets
4. Not discussing a topic and diverting attention from the Bible (samson story was never explored You rather discuss Islam than your Own Bible)
5. presenting the work of Rafat Amari is meaningless as he has not excavated Makkah so his "evidence" is circumstantial. Any self respecting archeologist would ask if you inspected the actual site. He never did but came to wild conclusions.
6. You love opinion (scribes and Pharisees) Your own, that of Pagan writers, the Greeks (pagans) Romans(pagans) and Ellis Skollfield (highly opinionated self styled Sholar that drew his own conclusions from his own analyses like many before him (some even started new cults)
7. You do not accept the all of the New or old testaments, YOU ARE VERY SELECTIVE OF THE VERSES YOU PREFER,
(heres some home work, find all the verses where Jesu says he is not God but a man and find all the verses that implies he is, there are none that actually directly say he is, and compare the two lists and then give us your conclusion.
8. find the passages that say a comforter and counselor will come with 100 thousand saints and look into archeology and history as to who the bible refers to.
9. Prophecy of Like unto Moses (Moses was obviously not born of a virgin so else could it be?)
10. Read the Quran' from cover to cover like I did with the Bible and then start to engage in Islam-Christian dialogue.
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 23, 2010, 06:18:51 AM
Quote from: Peter on October 22, 2010, 06:52:39 AM
My friend, it is you that has failed to present a pre-Mohammed historical record of Mecca. Your next adventure of pretending that the Old Testament is about Mecca won't magically create a 2900 year historical record of Mecca either. Nor will hurling unfounded accusations.
You have been shown, that those that you yourself correctly believe to have been 6th century illiterate pagan ignoramuses before Mohammed, couldn't possibly have penned, nor preserved, a historical record of Mecca. Let alone a 2900 year steady stream of ignoramuses before them, penning and preserving a history of Mecca (that the actual record suggests wasn't even settled until the 4th century AD). Nor does any such record exist.
Therefore even you understand, that all of the Islamic "tradition" that you have been indoctrinated to believe about Mecca, Abraham, Hagar and Ishmael is all created 7th and 8th century fictional poppycock.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1176.0
As much as you repeatedly try to make it about Dr. Amari, even you can see the ridiculous notion of believing there is a historical record of Mecca, that preceded Mohammed. All Dr. Amari did is point out, that this fact is also confirmed through the actual historical and archaeological records of Arabia.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=56.0
I'm sorry you don't like it my friend, but surely by now even you can see, that is simply the way it is.
Mecca was, is, and will always remain, over 1200 kilometers away from THE Holy Land.
My dear Peter, no amount of truth will change your hard headed misguided interpretations and opinions, your heart has hardened and this is evident from all the posts I have read, indicate, you quote the Bible but you do not believe the verse, you talk about Jesus but you seem to have no inclination as to what Jesus expects from you, you have absolutely no motivation to speak the truth.
1. No opinion but yours matter (Arrogant Ignoramus)
Following links offered for Muslim read-only participants of the forum that are seeking truth. Not so much for hopelessly indoctrinated suicide murderers. http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1899.msg7992#msg7992
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 23, 2010, 06:18:51 AM2. Quoting verse of verse indicates knowing of the lines but not understanding its meaning or purpose
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/#power_of_the_sword
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=731.0
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 23, 2010, 06:18:51 AM
3. Slander and hate speech towards someone that introduce over 2 billion people to Jesus and all the Prophets
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=336.0
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 23, 2010, 06:18:51 AM
4. Not discussing a topic and diverting attention from the Bible (samson story was never explored You rather discuss Islam than your Own Bible)
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1899.msg7872#msg7872
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1899.msg7884#msg7884
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1899.msg7898#msg7898
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1899.msg7899#msg7899
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1899.msg7910#msg7910
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1899.msg7911#msg7911
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1899.msg7914#msg7914
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1899.msg7927#msg7927
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1899.msg7995#msg7995
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 23, 2010, 06:18:51 AM
5. presenting the work of Rafat Amari is meaningless as he has not excavated Makkah so his "evidence" is circumstantial. Any self respecting archeologist would ask if you inspected the actual site. He never did but came to wild conclusions.
Attacking one messenger won't magically create a pre-4th century history or archaeology of Mecca from thin air.
Why not Google - ancient towns in Saudi Arabia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Towns_in_Saudi_Arabia) - or - history and archaeology of Mecca -?
http://www.historyofmecca.com/
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 23, 2010, 06:18:51 AM
6. You love opinion (scribes and Pharisees) Your own, that of Pagan writers, the Greeks (pagans) Romans(pagans) and Ellis Skollfield (highly opinionated self styled Sholar that drew his own conclusions from his own analyses like many before him (some even started new cults)
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=14.0
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 23, 2010, 06:18:51 AM
7. You do not accept the all of the New or old testaments, YOU ARE VERY SELECTIVE OF THE VERSES YOU PREFER,
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1175.0
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 23, 2010, 06:18:51 AM
(heres some home work, find all the verses where Jesu says he is not God but a man and find all the verses that implies he is, there are none that actually directly say he is, and compare the two lists and then give us your conclusion.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=40.0
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 23, 2010, 06:18:51 AM
8. find the passages that say a comforter
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=224.0
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=952.0
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 23, 2010, 06:18:51 AMand counselor
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Isa&c=9&t=KJV#6
http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=Counsellor&t=KJV&sf=5
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 23, 2010, 06:18:51 AMwill come with 100 thousand saints and look into archeology and history as to who the bible refers to.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1656.0
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 23, 2010, 06:18:51 AM
9. Prophecy of Like unto Moses (Moses was obviously not born of a virgin so else could it be?)
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=219.0
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 23, 2010, 06:18:51 AM
10. Read the Quran' from cover to cover like I did with the Bible and then start to engage in Islam-Christian dialogue.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=877.msg8000#msg8000
Further going in circles will be moved to "Extensions of Chats" here http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1976.0
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 19, 2010, 03:55:01 PMOne religion that actively discards the laws is Christianity, The Holy SPIRIT will guide you. Well you need to make your spirit holy before it guides you to holiness. These videos lack inspiration, they are sad stories of obviously GOD_less individuals that came from nothing and are now reading the Bible (well at least it is the first step). I cant believe I wasted my time watching them.
For folks wondering about our somewhat direct treatment of Mujaheed in this forum, the original post of this thread was
his second post in the forum. He wore his heart on his sleeve without even an attempt at a facade of civility.
The OP was his answer to "The Love of the One True God as Discovered by Muslims", posting largely (typically) unrelated material to the thread, multiple unrelated subjects as the typical MO, and so I split it off and made it's own thread.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1259.0
And that's how he characterizes his former brethren, that have come to know the love of the one true God through the Gospel of Jesus Christ, even as he himself chooses to understand God through the child-like mind of a 7th century southwest Arabian, desert dwelling, illiterate.
Again, further going in circles by Mujaheed will be moved to "Extensions of Chats" here http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1976.0
Others are welcome to
ADD something to the thread, or point out something we didn't address from Mujaheed's posts, if you would like to have answered for you.
Followers of Muhammad
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2656.0