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Esias 63 /1-2: "Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bosra, this beautiful one in his robe, walking in the greatness of his strength. I,that speak justice, and am a defender to save. 2 Why then is thy apparel red, and thy garments like theirs that tread in the winepress?"


Edom is in north arabia land


all the texts in OT reffering to the Messiah say that he comes from Arabia.

the chapter 63 according to all jewish scholars in the Talmud say Edom is the land where Messiah comes from.


See the TOB page 889 and this is the translation:

"this portrait of God's vineyard ; subjecting nations to the press of his judgment, will one day become the portrait of the Messiah, according to Jewish Targums written about. Genisis 49/11; Esaias and 63 / 1-2


you can see the map of edomite people by tourself . and it is useless to try to prove that Jesus has came from this country


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edom#/...el_830_map.svg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edom#/media/File:Kingdoms_around_Israel_830_map.svg

Just a few points:-

1) The land of Edom was about 1000km north of modern day Mecca. Muhammed was born in or around Mecca therefore he cannot be the one mentioned in Isaiah 63:1.

2) The OT prophet Daniel predicted the first advent of The Jewish Messiah to be during the years AD 29 and AD 33. Surely that also rules out Muhammed and pinpoints Jesus as The Jewish Messiah?

3) Isaiah 63 is highly prophetic and bears a striking resemblance to imagery of Revelation 19. This concerns the advent of the second coming of Jesus as The Jewish Messiah and the day of judgement to come after the restoration of Jerusalem in 1967. This is an event prophescised by Daniel (circa 537 BC) and confirmed by John circa AD 95 - to the year!

Isaiah 63:1-4

63 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah, this that is glorious in His apparel, traveling in the greatness of his strength? “I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.”

2 Why art thou red in Thine apparel, and Thy garments like him that treadeth in the wine vat?

3 “I have trodden the wine press alone; and of the people there was none with Me. For I will tread them in Mine anger and trample them in My fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon My garments, and I will stain all My raiment.

4 For the day of vengeance is in Mine heart, and the year of My redeemed is come.


Revelation 19:11-15

11 And I saw Heaven opened, and behold, a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns; and He had a name written that no man knew, but He Himself.

13 And He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood, and His name is called, The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in Heaven, clothed in fine linen white and clean, followed Him upon white horses.

15 And out of His mouth goeth a sharp sword with which He shall smite the nations, and He shall rule them with a rod of iron; and He treadeth the wine press of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Quote from: ps49 on January 31, 2016, 08:03:32 AM
Just a few points:-

1) The land of Edom was about 1000km north of modern day Mecca. Muhammed was born in or around Mecca therefore he cannot be the one mentioned in Isaiah 63:1.

Jesus did not come from Bozra or Edom. this is the essential.

Kedar , the end of earth , Bozra , the south , the distant land , Seir all these locations are in the same route and all are in Arabia land

Sure, but as I said, the prophecy concerns the second coming of Christ in the wrath of God.
He is depicted as returning from Edom already spattered with the blood of God's enemies.

In Isaiah's time Edom was a troubling enemy of Israel and so is used as a type to represent all enemies of Israel. Of course, Israel itself is also a prophetic type used to represent God's people, ie, those who recognize the shed blood of Christ, in faith, for the remission of sins.

Quote from: ps49 on January 31, 2016, 10:04:45 AM
Sure, but as I said, the prophecy concerns the second coming of Christ in the wrath of God.
He is depicted as returning from Edom already spattered with the blood of God's enemies.

you agree that the Messiah is warrior. he is spattered with the blood of God's enemies


Jesus was not warrior.

Quote from: bahous on January 31, 2016, 11:16:16 AM

Quote from: ps49 on January 31, 2016, 10:04:45 AM
Sure, but as I said, the prophecy concerns the second coming of Christ in the wrath of God.
He is depicted as returning from Edom already spattered with the blood of God's enemies.

you agree that the Messiah is warrior. he is spattered with the blood of God's enemies


Jesus was not warrior.

At His first coming, Jesus came to His people humbly and in no ways like a warrior. They, however, in the most part rejected Him and then later crucified Him. Therefore Jesus wept for Jerusalem and established a new covenant with those who received Him - to the Jews first and then the gentiles.

Even a cursory reading of the Bible shows that at His second coming, the wrath of God shall be manifest to the world. I wouldn't get too hung up on the imagery used by Isaiah though - it is just that - imagery. I don't expect that Jesus will be literally running around with a sword!

I would also like to add that this in no ways authorises any man to violence, indeed our Lord forbade it most clearly. Judgement of man is the remit of God alone. Therefore, any man who goes on a tyrannical rampage of violence and murder is actually placing himself in the position of God, showing himself as God.

My question to you, bahous, is why are you trying to rewrite the Bible but will not see the errors in your own books?  You say the Bible is corrupt but the Quran isn't. 

Then, if what you say is true, then we have two questions.  Why is the Quran telling Muslims that the Bible (the Torah and the Injeel) are allah's words? 

Second question.  If you say those books were lost, how come the Quran doesn't specify this little fact yet it still tells you this!

Sura 5:47  Let the people of the Injeel (Gospel) judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed (then) such (people) are the Fasiqun (the rebellious i.e. disobedient (of a lesser degree) to Allah.  

So, Where is this elusive Torah and Injeel Muhammad spoke so highly of?  I want to read it. 
The only record Muhammad had to be talking about was the Bible. 

That is, unless you can produce a copy of the reference material Muhammad was actually talking about.

Another question for you.  Have you read the Torah and Injeel as specified in Sura 5:47?  No?  Is that because it was lost?  How come allah didn't know that? 

Quote from: Bistabuster on January 31, 2016, 01:33:28 PM
My question to you, bahous, is ......

bahous avoids questions. I am not allowing him to start any new threads before he goes back to the beginning of the other two threads and responds to our replies from the top. However ps49 requested this one remain open. I should have left the other one here and locked it with my note on it, rather than moving it to spam. Perhaps our friend didn't see where it went. I'll move it back.
It is well past time we prevailed upon him to honor the vow, that he took when he joined, but failed to keep.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=4831.msg18780#msg18780

QuoteI wouldn't get too hung up on the imagery used by Isaiah though - it is just that - imagery. I don't expect that Jesus will be literally running around with a sword!

Just to elaborate a little please read 2 Chronicles chapter 20. Here's an extract of the parts which struck me:-

14 Then the Spirit of the Lord came upon Jahaziel the son of Zechariah, the son of Benaiah, the son of Jeiel, the son of Mattaniah, a Levite of the sons of Asaph, in the midst of the assembly.  15 And he said, “Listen, all you of Judah and you inhabitants of Jerusalem, and you, King Jehoshaphat! Thus says the Lord to you: ‘Do not be afraid nor dismayed because of this great multitude, for the battle is not yours, but God’s.  16 Tomorrow go down against them. They will surely come up by the Ascent of Ziz, and you will find them at the end of the brook before the Wilderness of Jeruel.  17 You will not need to fight in this battle. Position yourselves, stand still and see the salvation of the Lord, who is with you, O Judah and Jerusalem!’ Do not fear or be dismayed; tomorrow go out against them, for the Lord is with you.”

18 And Jehoshaphat bowed his head with his face to the ground, and all Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem bowed before the Lord, worshiping the Lord.  19 Then the Levites of the children of the Kohathites and of the children of the Korahites stood up to praise the Lord God of Israel with voices loud and high.

20 So they rose early in the morning and went out into the Wilderness of Tekoa; and as they went out, Jehoshaphat stood and said, “Hear me, O Judah and you inhabitants of Jerusalem: Believe in the Lord your God, and you shall be established; believe His prophets, and you shall prosper.”  21 And when he had consulted with the people, he appointed those who should sing to the Lord, and who should praise the beauty of holiness, as they went out before the army and were saying:

“Praise the Lord,
For His mercy endures forever.”

22 Now when they began to sing and to praise, the Lord set ambushes against the people of Ammon, Moab, and Mount Seir, who had come against Judah; and they were defeated.  23 For the people of Ammon and Moab stood up against the inhabitants of Mount Seir to utterly kill and destroy them. And when they had made an end of the inhabitants of Seir, they helped to destroy one another.

24 So when Judah came to a place overlooking the wilderness, they looked toward the multitude; and there were their dead bodies, fallen on the earth. No one had escaped.

To any third party onlooker this must have been a very strange scene. Seemingly two opposing armies meet to face one another in the usual way but bizarrely, the "army" of Judah just stands there singing praises to God in faith. The people of Ammon, Moab, and Mount Seir then inexplicably set about utterly destroying themselves and each other. The people of Judah didn't have to strike a single blow or even put one foot forwards. Now the mind of the natural man might put this crazy behaviour down to bad leadership or some other natural reason and he might be right on some level. However, the story is a useful insight into how God brings about His purposes in the world. At the time, the Ammonites etc probably had no idea that their downfall was divinely orchestrated.

Now go and take a look at what's happening in the Middle East and the Islamic world in general. Israel is surrounded by enemies who seem to be doing a much better job of destroying themselves than any other!

Quote from: PeteWaldo on January 31, 2016, 01:56:24 PM

Quote from: Bistabuster on January 31, 2016, 01:33:28 PM
My question to you, bahous, is ......

bahous avoids questions. I am not allowing him to start any new threads before he goes back to the beginning of the other two threads and responds to our replies from the top. However ps49 requested this one remain open. I should have left the other one here and locked it with my note on it, rather than moving it to spam. Perhaps our friend didn't see where it went. I'll move it back.
It is well past time we prevailed upon him to honor the vow, that he took when he joined, but failed to keep.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=4831.msg18780#msg18780

you are afraid of me

I don't allow you at any way to submit me under your conditions

Quote from: bahous on February 01, 2016, 08:56:49 AM

Quote from: PeteWaldo on January 31, 2016, 01:56:24 PM

Quote from: Bistabuster on January 31, 2016, 01:33:28 PM
My question to you, bahous, is ......

bahous avoids questions. I am not allowing him to start any new threads before he goes back to the beginning of the other two threads and responds to our replies from the top. However ps49 requested this one remain open. I should have left the other one here and locked it with my note on it, rather than moving it to spam. Perhaps our friend didn't see where it went. I'll move it back.
It is well past time we prevailed upon him to honor the vow, that he took when he joined, but failed to keep.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=4831.msg18780#msg18780

you are afraid of me

I don't allow you at any way to submit me under your conditions

We just want you to answer the questions that we have posed.

Because you leave questions hanging unanswered in this and your other two threads it looks like you have no answer - which is fair enough. However, if you then continue posting more new threads and changing the subject of discussion within threads, then it begins to look like you are a spammer. So why don't you go ahead and prove us wrong in our presumptions? Answer the questions, please.

Quote from: ps49 on January 31, 2016, 08:03:32 AM
Just a few points:-

1) The land of Edom was about 1000km north of modern day Mecca. Muhammed was born in or around Mecca therefore he cannot be the one mentioned in Isaiah 63:1.

2) The OT prophet Daniel predicted the first advent of The Jewish Messiah to be during the years AD 29 and AD 33. Surely that also rules out Muhammed and pinpoints Jesus as The Jewish Messiah?

3) Isaiah 63 is highly prophetic and bears a striking resemblance to imagery of Revelation 19. This concerns the advent of the second coming of Jesus as The Jewish Messiah and the day of judgement to come after the restoration of Jerusalem in 1967. This is an event prophescised by Daniel (circa 537 BC) and confirmed by John circa AD 95 - to the year!

Isaiah 63:1-4

63 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah, this that is glorious in His apparel, traveling in the greatness of his strength? “I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.”

2 Why art thou red in Thine apparel, and Thy garments like him that treadeth in the wine vat?

3 “I have trodden the wine press alone; and of the people there was none with Me. For I will tread them in Mine anger and trample them in My fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon My garments, and I will stain all My raiment.

4 For the day of vengeance is in Mine heart, and the year of My redeemed is come.


Revelation 19:11-15

11 And I saw Heaven opened, and behold, a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns; and He had a name written that no man knew, but He Himself.

13 And He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood, and His name is called, The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in Heaven, clothed in fine linen white and clean, followed Him upon white horses.

15 And out of His mouth goeth a sharp sword with which He shall smite the nations, and He shall rule them with a rod of iron; and He treadeth the wine press of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

This is why Jesus had to correct Jews saying :" how scribes can say the Messiah is descendant of David" Mark 12/35

and all the believers were awainting the Messiah : John 7/31 :" 31 But of the people many believed in him, and said: When the Christ cometh, shall he do "more miracles, than these which this man doth?

Jesua were always rejecting the title of Messiah : Then charged he the disciples that they should tell no man that he was the Christ



CEB version:  20 Then he ordered the disciples not to tell anybody that he was the Christ.


Another version

Then he strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ.

Quote from: Bistabuster on January 31, 2016, 01:33:28 PM
My question to you, bahous, is why are you trying to rewrite the Bible but will not see the errors in your own books?  You say the Bible is corrupt but the Quran isn't. 

Then, if what you say is true, then we have two questions.  Why is the Quran telling Muslims that the Bible (the Torah and the Injeel) are allah's words? 

Second question.  If you say those books were lost, how come the Quran doesn't specify this little fact yet it still tells you this!

Sura 5:47  Let the people of the Injeel (Gospel) judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed (then) such (people) are the Fasiqun (the rebellious i.e. disobedient (of a lesser degree) to Allah.  

So, Where is this elusive Torah and Injeel Muhammad spoke so highly of?  I want to read it. 
The only record Muhammad had to be talking about was the Bible. 

That is, unless you can produce a copy of the reference material Muhammad was actually talking about.

Another question for you.  Have you read the Torah and Injeel as specified in Sura 5:47?  No?  Is that because it was lost?  How come allah didn't know that?

bahous - if you answer Bistabuster's earlier question then we will be happy to address your severe biblical misunderstandings. You can't just keep spamming us with your nonsense and expect us to run around after you like this.

Quote from: bahous on February 01, 2016, 09:16:46 AM

Then he strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ.

Matthew 16:16-20

Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”  Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. ...Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ.

How will you twist this one, Bahous?

Mark 12
35 Then Jesus answered and said, while He taught in the temple, “How is it that the scribes say that the Christ is the Son of David? 

36 For David himself said by the Holy Spirit:

‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”’

37 Therefore David himself calls Him ‘Lord’; how is He then his Son?” And the common people heard Him gladly.

Psalm 78
2 I will open my mouth in a parable;
I will utter dark sayings of old

Daniel 12
10 Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.

John 8
58 Jesus said unto them, “Verily, verily I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am!”

Quote from: bahous on February 01, 2016, 08:56:49 AM

Quote from: PeteWaldo on January 31, 2016, 01:56:24 PM

Quote from: Bistabuster on January 31, 2016, 01:33:28 PM
My question to you, bahous, is ......

bahous avoids questions. I am not allowing him to start any new threads before he goes back to the beginning of the other two threads and responds to our replies from the top. However ps49 requested this one remain open. I should have left the other one here and locked it with my note on it, rather than moving it to spam. Perhaps our friend didn't see where it went. I'll move it back.
It is well past time we prevailed upon him to honor the vow, that he took when he joined, but failed to keep.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=4831.msg18780#msg18780

you are afraid of me

We answer to your invalid points and false presumptions over and over ad nauseum.
You are the coward that runs and hides from our questions like a little girl.
In the mold of your "messenger":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MG1MiLqH0jc

Why don't you put on your big boy pants and start responding to our questions you ignored?
I'll bump one in the other thread.

Quote from: bahous on February 01, 2016, 08:56:49 AM
I don't allow you at any way to submit me under your conditions[/b][/u]

Which makes you a vow breaker, just like Muhammad. We've grown to expect it of his followers, because of those like you.

From Matthew 24
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, ‘Lo, here is Christ,’ or ‘there,’ believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false christs and false prophets and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Therefore, if they shall say unto you, ‘Behold, He is in the desert!’ go not forth; or ‘Behold, He is in the secret chambers!’ believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the west, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Pretty clear, and made even clearer by the fact that Muhammed opposes the teachings of Christ Jesus. He denies His divinity, Sonship, crucifixion and resurection for the remission of sins. Muhammed even dares to elevate himself higher than Christ Jesus, ie, declaring himself to be the final and greatest messenger of God.

Interestingly Muhammed also came from the desert too, possibly indicating that Jesus had him in mind as a particular example when speaking of false prophets and christs. This idea is strengthened by the fact that in verse 15 Jesus speaks of the "abomination of desolation" prophesised by Daniel, which we have identified as being the Dome of the Rock and the al-aqsa mosque erected by Muhammed's followers in the period 688-705 AD.

15 “When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand),

16 then let them that be in Judea flee unto the mountains.

From Daniel 12
11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.

The beginning of the great tribulation. The Islamic invasion of the Holy Land was about as blood-thirsty as you can get but Jesus instructed us to flee the area and essentially leave them to it. Islam has since continued in its diabolical ways.

But with the restoration if Israel beginning in 1917, the declaration of independence in 1948 and the recovery of Jerusalem in 1967 we can see that indeed the fig tree grows to strength and is now putting forth leaves:-

32 “Now learn a parable of the fig tree: When his branch is yet tender and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh.

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

It is time to see the truth and accept Christ Jesus as saviour, before it's too late...

QuoteWhy don't you put on your big boy pants and start responding to our questions you ignored?

His behaviour seems typically Islamic. Watch this video and count the number of straight and honest answers given...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLAKwHFx0qE

Quote from: ps49 on February 02, 2016, 10:09:43 AM

QuoteWhy don't you put on your big boy pants and start responding to our questions you ignored?

His behaviour seems typically Islamic. Watch this video and count the number of straight and honest answers given...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLAKwHFx0qE

There's no truth in them, whether lying by intent or being fooled by the father of lies into lying, without realizing it.

Quote from: ExMilitary on February 01, 2016, 09:47:21 AM

Quote from: bahous on February 01, 2016, 09:16:46 AM

Then he strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ.

Matthew 16:16-20

Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”  Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. ...Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ.

How will you twist this one, Bahous?

this text that you are reffering to in translator's Mathiew doesn't exist in the other Gospel. it's a fake

the traslator's Mathiew Matthew's translator has displayed a predilection for the word of God son . it appears 80 times in his gospel .
falsifies the gospel

But the Gospels haven't changed since Muhammed's time... That's why we would like you to answer BistaBuster's question - please:-

QuoteMy question to you, bahous, is why are you trying to rewrite the Bible but will not see the errors in your own books?  You say the Bible is corrupt but the Quran isn't. 

Then, if what you say is true, then we have two questions.  Why is the Quran telling Muslims that the Bible (the Torah and the Injeel) are allah's words? 

Second question.  If you say those books were lost, how come the Quran doesn't specify this little fact yet it still tells you this!

Sura 5:47  Let the people of the Injeel (Gospel) judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed (then) such (people) are the Fasiqun (the rebellious i.e. disobedient (of a lesser degree) to Allah. 

So, Where is this elusive Torah and Injeel Muhammad spoke so highly of?  I want to read it. 
The only record Muhammad had to be talking about was the Bible. 

That is, unless you can produce a copy of the reference material Muhammad was actually talking about.

Another question for you.  Have you read the Torah and Injeel as specified in Sura 5:47?  No?  Is that because it was lost?  How come allah didn't know that? 

Until you do, you really are just blowing hot air out of your rear end.

John 20 "30 Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book."

The Gospels were written by different people who captured different aspects of the life of Jesus according to their circumstances and recorded according to their own understanding and wrote in their own style of speech. Therefore they complement each other without being exactly the same.

bahous - did you understand what I meant by this post?

Quote from: ps49 on February 01, 2016, 02:09:02 PM
Mark 12
35 Then Jesus answered and said, while He taught in the temple, “How is it that the scribes say that the Christ is the Son of David? 

36 For David himself said by the Holy Spirit:

‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”’

37 Therefore David himself calls Him ‘Lord’; how is He then his Son?” And the common people heard Him gladly.

Psalm 78
2 I will open my mouth in a parable;
I will utter dark sayings of old

Daniel 12
10 Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.

John 8
58 Jesus said unto them, “Verily, verily I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am!”

Quote from: bahous on February 03, 2016, 03:29:03 PM

Quote from: ExMilitary on February 01, 2016, 09:47:21 AM

Quote from: bahous on February 01, 2016, 09:16:46 AM

Then he strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ.

Matthew 16:16-20

Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”  Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. ...Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ.

How will you twist this one, Bahous?

this text that you are reffering to in translator's Mathiew doesn't exist in the other Gospel. it's a fake

the traslator's Mathiew Matthew's translator has displayed a predilection for the word of God son . it appears 80 times in his gospel .
falsifies the gospel

That passage is based on (at the latest) 4th century manuscripts in existence when Muhammad was alive.  In fact, from what I can tell, the manuscripts were discovered about 700 kilometers Northwest of Medina. Muhammad encouraged people to read these manuscripts as factual evidence of Jesus. 

Quote from: bahous on February 03, 2016, 03:29:03 PMthis text that you are reffering to in translator's Mathiew doesn't exist in the other Gospel.

There is no "other" Gospel my friend, there is only one Gospel and it's whole subject as revealed through all of the Gospel witnesses, is the crucifixion, death and resurrection of the Messiah Yeshua, the Son of God, who saves all from dying in our sins who have faith in the blood He shed for us through His sacrifice.

The one great God of the scriptures of Jews and Christians did give you the free will to accept or reject Him. Your choice, your fate:

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Quote from: bahous on February 03, 2016, 03:29:03 PMit's a fake

Which is the whole point, since you must believe the whole subject of the Gospel to be fake, because you follow Muhammad alone. You must reject all of God's prophets and witnesses as revealed in the 1600 year record of our great God Yahweh to mankind, and consider them "fake", because you follow the false prophet Muhammad alone through his heavily abrogated, 23-year, 7th century record, and are thus compelled to DISbelieve the crucifixion of Christ which is the basis of the whole subject of the Gospel and reject the shed blood of the Lamb of God that would save you from your sins, and deny and blaspheme the Son of God as articles of your "faith" in Muhammad alone. Because you are a member of a specifically counter-gospel, antichrist, anti-religion cult - a murderous, imperialistic political machine - invented by an illiterate, murderous, thieving, 7th century SW Arabian desert dwelling, terrorist reprobate.

Surah 33:26 Allah took down the People of the Scripture Book. He cast terror into their hearts. Some you slew, and some you made prisoners. And He made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods, giving you a land which you had not traversed before. And Allah has power over all things.

Yet by Muhammad's 7th century the Gospel had been translated into every popular language, had been copied tens of thousands of times and had been read all over the known world for centuries, before your "messenger" proclaimed:

Sura 5:47 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

So your post indicates you must think Muhammad to have been pretty stupid, to have made what you can only believe to have been such an egregious error, as to tell Christians to go by what God revealed in the Gospel.
If not then please explain.

What bahous really needs is to address is the central issue that Muhammad alone makes him deny the whole subject of the Gospel and blaspheme the Son of God.

Rather than allow him to distract further why don't we unite and insist he offer an explanation regarding Sura 5:47, that he has ignored at least a half dozen times, thus breaking the vow he affirmed when he joine (http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=35.msg5830#msg5830)d the forum? (as ExMil alluded to in his post)

Sura 5:68 Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord."

Sura 80.13 (It is) in Books held (greatly) in honour, 14 Exalted (in dignity), kept pure and holy,15 (Written) by the hands of scribes- 16 Honourable and Pious and Just.

sura 4:136 O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

Ah - the sound of silence...

Well so far, bahous has declared the Gospels of John, Mark and Matthew to be fakes. So just where is this Gospel, the one which Muhammed held with such high esteem? Is it the Gospel of Luke? Maybe one of the so-called gnostic "gospels" perhaps? Are you going to enlighten us bahous?

by comparing the parallel verses of Mark and Luke to Mathieu one realizes that Matthew's translator had a morbid passion to add the title " Son of God "

for exemple :
Mt 4/3 ' 3 And the tempter came to him , saying, If thou be the Son of God , command that these stones become bread "

Mt 4/6 : '6 and said, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written :' He will command "

Mc1 / 13 : "13 And he was in the wilderness forty days, tempted by Satan ; and he was with the wild beasts ; and the angels ministered to him . "


we see that St. Mark avoids the name of the Son of God . it is the same for all the verses .


here is the miracle of the Qur'an

I- Mt4 / 3: Mt4 / 7 text Mc1 / 13:

II- Mt 12/50 has Mc3 / 35 ; Lk 8/21

III- MT16 / 16: Mc : 8/29 ; Lk 9/20 :

IV- MT14 / 33: MC6 / 51 :

V - MT20 / 23: MC10 / 40:

VI- MT26 / 29: to MC14 / 25 ; Luc 22/18 :

VII- MT27 / 40: to MC15 / 30; LC23 / 35

VIII -Mt 27/43 to MC15 / 32; Lk 23/39

But all of the four canonical Gospels agree that Jesus of Nazareth claimed to be and was indeed the prophesised Messiah and Son of God:-

Mat 4:3 "Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.”

Mat 8:29 And suddenly they cried out, saying, “What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?”

Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God

Mark 3:11 And the unclean spirits, whenever they saw Him, fell down before Him and cried out, saying, “You are the Son of God.”

Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

Luke 4:41 And demons also came out of many, crying out and saying, “You are the Christ, [fn] the Son of God!” And He, rebuking them, did not allow them to speak, for they knew that He was the Christ.

John 1:34 “And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God.”

John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

And many more from each... there is no disagrement amongst the four authors: Jesus of Nazareth is the Son of God.

So the question remains! Please answer: where is the gospel which Muhammed held in such high esteem as to state the following:-

Sura 5:68 Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord."

Sura 80.13 (It is) in Books held (greatly) in honour, 14 Exalted (in dignity), kept pure and holy,15 (Written) by the hands of scribes- 16 Honourable and Pious and Just.

sura 4:136 O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

If you cannot show us this "gospel" then you have no ground to stand on. This truth must be obvious to anybody reading this. By certifying the authenticity of the Gospel, Muhammed must actually agree that Jesus of Nazareth is the Son of God...

Quote from: ps49 on February 14, 2016, 02:23:48 PM
But all of the four canonical Gospels agree that Jesus of Nazareth claimed to be and was indeed the prophesised Messiah and Son of God:-

From the 19th century Catholic critics and by the Protestant saw in the book of Mark a solid document to rewrite sane history of Jesus ,based on scientific evidence , far from the marvelous of Mathiew and the work of synthesis did by Luc h and apologetic purpose of John.


Marc is John Paul's companion in his first missionary journey. Acts tells us that John called Mark cut short his trip with Paul and promptly returned to Jerusalem.
just after his return (he would have submitted its report against Paul and his dangerous tendency to the message of the Gospel) the first council met.

for ample information he is the nephew of Barnabas (famous for its well known gospel of Muslims).


this is the book where the title "Son of God" appears more sparingly.

Mark insinuates that this title is satanic; it occurs in his gospel on the mouth of demons (of Djins), or the mouth of demons (men).

Here the study:

I- on the mouth of demons (Djins)

Marc3 / 11: 11 And the unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God

Marc 5/7 "7 and, crying with a loud voice, he said: What is it between you and me, Jesus, Son of God Most High * I charge you by God, do not torment me? not.

II- on the lips of men demons

Marc 14/61: 61 And he was silent, and answered nothing. The priest still questioned, and said: Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? *
Marc15 / 39: "39 And the centurion, who stood vis-a-vis him, seeing that he had expired and shouting, saying, Certainly this was the Son of God.

Marc and 1/1 "1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, Son of God" is adulterated all learned Christians agreed that these two words do not exist in holy manuscript. (It is a forgery)


the recap: four times appears the title of the Son of God pronounced by the devils and demons men.

that honor you dear Christian to be taught by Satan

QuoteI- on the mouth of demons (Djins)...
...II- on the lips of men demons

Yes, even the demons know that Jesus is the Son of God and tremble before Him. Most worryingly, the demons were not afraid of Muhammed in the cave of Hira, in fact, they appear to have been instrumental in the forming of Muhammed's writings and his horrid death cult.

You fail to mention that according to Mark it is also on the lips of Jesus Himself:-

Mar 14:61
But He kept silent and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked Him, saying to Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?”

Jesus said, “I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”

You also fail to mention that God The Father confirms Jesus as Son of God here:-

Mar 1:10
And immediately, coming up from the water, He saw the heavens parting and the Spirit descending upon Him like a dove.
Then a voice came from heaven, “You are My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
Immediately the Spirit drove Him into the wilderness.

QuoteMarc and 1/1 "1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, Son of God" is adulterated all learned Christians agreed that these two words do not exist in holy manuscript. (It is a forgery)

Why don't you show us what these "learned Christians" actually said? Show us your sources to prove you are not just voicing unsubstantiated nonsense. You have a strong tendency to declare any biblical texts "fake" or "forgery" if they don't concur with your extant belief system.

And the question still remains: Where is the gospel that Muhammed held in such high esteem? All of the four canonical gospels contradict Muhammed by declaring the Sonship, Divinity, Crucifixion, Resurrection and Ascension of Jesus of Nazareth. So what exactly was Muhammed reading circa AD 613? It can only have been of "gnostic" origin - such heresies were common in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd centuries.

Quote from: ps49 on February 15, 2016, 03:35:04 AM

QuoteI- on the mouth of demons (Djins)...
...II- on the lips of men demons

Yes, even the demons know that Jesus is the Son of God and tremble before Him.

Demons are created to say lies and mislead the mankind


you are misled and you have Satan for teacher

Quote from: bahous on February 15, 2016, 02:10:38 AM

Quote from: ps49 on February 14, 2016, 02:23:48 PM
But all of the four canonical Gospels agree that Jesus of Nazareth claimed to be and was indeed the prophesised Messiah and Son of God:-

From the 19th century Catholic critics and by the Protestant saw in the book of Mark a solid document to rewrite sane history of Jesus ,based on scientific evidence , far from the marvelous of Mathiew and the work of synthesis did by Luc h and apologetic purpose of John.


Marc is John Paul's companion in his first missionary journey. Acts tells us that John called Mark cut short his trip with Paul and promptly returned to Jerusalem.
just after his return (he would have submitted its report against Paul and his dangerous tendency to the message of the Gospel) the first council met.

for ample information he is the nephew of Barnabas (famous for its well known gospel of Muslims).


this is the book where the title "Son of God" appears more sparingly.

Mark insinuates that this title is satanic; it occurs in his gospel on the mouth of demons (of Djins), or the mouth of demons (men).

Here the study:

I- on the mouth of demons (Djins)

Marc3 / 11: 11 And the unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God

Marc 5/7 "7 and, crying with a loud voice, he said: What is it between you and me, Jesus, Son of God Most High * I charge you by God, do not torment me? not.

II- on the lips of men demons

Marc 14/61: 61 And he was silent, and answered nothing. The priest still questioned, and said: Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? *
Marc15 / 39: "39 And the centurion, who stood vis-a-vis him, seeing that he had expired and shouting, saying, Certainly this was the Son of God.

Marc and 1/1 "1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, Son of God" is adulterated all learned Christians agreed that these two words do not exist in holy manuscript. (It is a forgery)

the recap: four times appears the title of the Son of God pronounced by the devils and demons men.

that honor you dear Christian to be taught by Satan

Look at what a demon possessed antichrist liar you increasingly demonstrate yourself to be! Why is it that Muslims believe that simply repeating a lie, will make it magically come true?

You attempt to advance demonstrably and provably false lies about a few verses, yet your lie is readily exposed by the hundreds of verses that proclaim Jesus to be the the Son of God and Jesus' own proclamations of God being His Father, and then when the verse that opens the book of Mark doesn't serve your preposterous lies, you claim it does "not exist in holy manuscript. (It is a forgery)".
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/jesus_the_son_of_god.htm
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/god_the_father.htm

Which I knew from your first false premise about Muhammad being the Messiah, in here is the 16th century Muhammadan forgery of the fake so-called "Gospel of Barnabas". A claim that even your orthodox Muslim brethren would likely be happy to cut your head off for.

It certainly is a fact that demons are afraid of the name of the Messiah, Jesus Christ, Yeshua because that is the name through which they are cast out of possessed persons. Christian ministers that are so-called today, do the same, just as was done in the first century.

It's too bad Muhammad was to ignorant of the things of the Spirit of God, to know how to "try the spirits" when the demon met him in the Cave of Hira! Muhammad certainly had no doubt it was a demon that met him in the Cave of Hira and terrified him by making him feel like it was squeezing the life out of him three times.
But Khadijah talked him out of it being the evil spirit that it was. Thus it isn't unreasonable to suggest that Satan's cult of Islam, is actually the cult founded by Khadijah, because she talked Muhammad into believing the demonic spirit that founded the counter-gospel, antichrist, anti-religion of Islam was from God.

Here is how it went in that cave:

Quoting from the Hadith of Bukhari, 9.111:  Narrated 'Aisha:  The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah's Apostle was in the form of good righteous (true) dreams in his sleep. He never had a dream but that it came true like bright day light. He used to go in seclusion (the cave of) Hira where he used to worship(Allah Alone) continuously for many (days) nights. He used to take with him the journey food for that (stay) and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food like-wise again for another period to stay, till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him in it and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read." (The Prophet added), "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it anymore. He then released me and again asked me to read, and I replied, "I do not know how to read," whereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it anymore.  He then released me and asked me again to read, but again I replied, "I do not know how to read (or, what shall I read?)." Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me and then released me and said, "Read: In the Name of your Lord, Who has created (all that exists). Has created man from a clot. Read and Your Lord is Most Generous...up to..... ..that which he knew not." (96.15)

Then Allah's Apostle returned with the Inspiration, his neck muscles twitching with terror till he entered upon Khadija and said, "Cover me! Cover me!" They covered him till his fear was over and then he said, "O Khadija, what is wrong with me?" Then he told her everything that had happened and said, 'I fear that something may happen to me." Khadija said, 'Never! But have the glad tidings, for by Allah, Allah will never disgrace you as you keep good relations with your Kith and kin, speak the truth, help the poor and the destitute, serve your guest generously and assist the deserving, calamity-afflicted ones."
http://answering-islam.org/Silas/demons.htm

Returned with "neck muscles twitching" which is another manifestation of demonic possession, just as his falling to the ground and writhing around foaming at the mouth as a camel, was another indication. The poor soul suffered demonic possession all his adult life (and likely his whole life since his family was so deep into the occult), with nobody ever delivering him from his demons.

""The authoritative Hadith (Tradition) relate that Muhammad used to faint whenever revelation came to him. It is claimed he used to act like a drunkard (See Al-Sirah al-Nabawiya, by Ibn Hisham; chapter on how revelation came). In his boo, Al-Qur’an al-Majid, Darwaza claims that Muhammad was taken out of this world. Abu Huraira says that ‘whenever Muhammad received revelation, he was overwhelmed by trembling.’ Another account says: ‘He became distressed, foaming at the mouth and closing his eyes. At times he snorted like a young camel’ (Ahmad b. Hanbal I, 34, 464, VI, 163)." (The True Guidance (Part Four): An Introduction to Quranic Studies [Light of Life, P.O. Box, A-9503, Villach, Austria], p. 9; bold emphasis ours)"
http://answering-islam.org/authors/thompson/demonic_influence.html

So far you have failed to come up with a single "lie against Islam", in this forum or in any of the websites at the links below, to cite on that related thread.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=4886.0

Now you are going to need to start answering our earlier questions that you ignored, or go on another vacation, each time, double the length of vacation we sent you on the time before. Please address the question from your original thread, at the following link, or you will be sent on a 6 day vacation.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=4807.msg18802#msg18802