Islam, Muslim / Christian Forum - Welcome All

Something like the other kingdom of God? Or the next kingdom of God?

There is only one kingdom of God., which has been existing since John the Baptist, and shall continue to exist forever because that is what God promised through Daniel.

Conquer the wickedness that is inherent in fallen man, who all inherit our sinful nature from Adam?
Other than, of course, "conquering" wickedness as scripture suggests:

The scripture that I had in mind was this one:

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 1 Corinthians 15: 23 -25.

There is certainly no shortage of futurists that believe in a physical, millennial reign of Christ on earth. Or is it your view that believers will spend eternity with Christ on earth? I believe that Jesus Christ ushered in His kingdom, just as He promised those who He told wouldn't die before He came in it.

I do not believe in a thousand year reign of Christ over the ungodly. I was speaking about the eternity to come. All the elect of God shall spend an eternity with God and Christ upon this earth.  That is why God turned this planet into a world. However, we enter the kingdom during our life time.

I believe He ushered in His kingdom when He returned from the Father in His glorified body after His resurrection from the dead. In any event, if He didn't usher His kingdom in while some of them were still alive, it would have made Him a false prophet. Let alone that His kingdom is not of this world:

The kingdom existed from the time of John the Baptist but the Lord Jesus Christ began his reign over the kingdom from the day of His resurrection.

And declared to be the Son of God (the King) with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. Romans 1: 4.

As I said before the term 'Son of God' in this verse is synonymous with the eternal Kingship of the Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ, as prophesied by the prophet Nathan to King David. 1 Chron. 17: 4 -14.
This was confirmed unto us by the archangel Gabriel Luke 1: 31 - 33. Why can't you see that? It is as plain as day. When the people saw Him in His resurrected body then they realized that the kingdom of God had been officially established upon earth.

Because the kingdom is within us:

The kingdom is at present spiritual until all the elect have been called into it. Then the end shall come and the kingdom shall take a more concrete form upon the whole earth.

He rules His kingdom today. Are you suggesting that He will be replacing His/our current temple, with some carnal temple of the flesh, built on this earth, from which He will rule? If so, why?

But some man will say, How are the dead raised up ? and with what body do they come ? So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 1 Corinthians 15: 35; 42 -44; 50 - 53

Are you expecting some other household of God? Was Christ's finished work so unfinished, incomplete or insufficient that He would need to come back to build a better temple? That the temple He built in 3 days is so inadequate, that He would need a physical temple on earth, like the one that was torn down?

That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world.
Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God. Ephesians 2: 12 & 19.

The heathens who became believers were no longer strangers to the covenants of promise or foreigners to the people of Israel. They are now fellow citizens with Jewish believers of the people of Israel, or the kingdom of God.

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. 1 Corinthians 3: 16 & 17.

The temple that Paul is speaking about here is the church, or the body of Christ. Ye (plural) are the temple of God. At present the temple is being built by the Holy Spirit. It won't be finished until the last person to be saved has joined it.

And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Ephesians 2: 20 - 22.

In the eternal kingdom upon earth we shall have God dwelling among us like He did after the Israelites were freed from Egypt. There shall never be a physical temple again. 

Dear ExMilitary.

So, I'm not sure what it is you are actually trying to communicate.  Regardless of what anyone else may or may not have known at the time, Was Jesus the only begotten Son of God at His birth or not?

The answer to your question above is, in my humble opinion, no. I now realize what it is that is confusing you. Part of the blame rests with me. I never denied that Jesus was the only begotten Son of God, I just do not think that this term is speaking of either the conception or birth of Jesus, the Son of man. You, however, do. I think that Jesus was thought of as being this because of his resurrection, not his birth: although it would be quite natural to assume that the term 'the only begotten Son of God' had something to do with his birth. There are scriptures that support this. You and I view the Lord Jesus Christ in two different ways. While you assume that Jesus and the Word of God are identical, I treat them both as two separate beings. Trinitarians, like I said in another post, view the Messiah as being one person with two natures, the person being the Word of God. I do not. You give me the impression that you are confusing the two natures by making no distinction between them whatsoever. Jesus is for you both human and divine. To Trinitarians it is the Word of God that has a human nature and also one that is divine. I agree with this statement but I reject their assumption that only one person was present in the human body of Jesus, being the Word of God. From my understanding of Holy Scripture Jesus had his own human personality, which was quite evident on occasions. If he did not then he would not be for me fully man, as the Trinitarians like to call him.

This is where I am confused.  What is the purpose of the distinction are you making between the following:
1.  Being the only begotten Son of God from conception (as you've indicated in the above quotation)
2.  Having the Father declare this, from heaven, during His baptism.

You are very observant concerning this matter. There is a difference to me concerning these two incidences. The difference is that they are not relating to one and the same person, as you might think, but to the Word of God and Jesus. The Word of God became the Son of God the moment He was a part of humanity. No human being could ever obtain to the perfect righteousness of the Law of God by his own obedience. However, that is what was required of him before he could have fellowship with God. The Word of God could not obtain this righteousness, on our behalf, by His obedience to the Law of God because He was never subject to the Law of God as humans are. Therefore, the Word of God needed a human body to accomplish this.

Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Heb 10: 5 & 7

Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book [it is] written of me, I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law [is] within my heart. Psalm 40: 7 & 8

According to Psalm 40 the Word of God was performing the will of God by keeping the Law of God with the body that had His law in his heart, namely Jesus. This was also necessary so that the Body of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ was without blemish and therefore acceptable to God as a sacrifice, in accordance with His Law.

The second reference was to Jesus, the Son of man, who was appointed by God to be that descendant of King David who would be the rightful heir to the throne of his father David, which God promised King David to give to him. The angel Gabriel confirmed this in his conversation with Mary. To the Jews this King would be called the Son of God because of what God said to David about him in the covenant that God made with David.

And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build me an house, and I will establish his throne for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore. According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David. 1 Chronicles 17: 11 - 15.

Since God said to David, "I will be his father, and he shall be my son.", then his descendant would be called the Son of God. After Jesus was baptized God the Father called him 'my beloved Son' in the presence of John the Baptist. This was God's way of confirming that Jesus was the descendant of David that would be the eternal King over the house of Jacob. This is why Jesus, as a man, was called the Son of God.

The Word of God was called the Son of God for a different reason than Jesus was called that. However, they both had the one goal before them, which was to save the elect and make them citizens of the Kingdom of God.

Would this not make Him:
1. Begotten
2. The son of God
3. The only one that meets #1 and #2

Hence, the only begotten Son of God..?

Jesus was called 'only begotten' not because of his unique conception or birth but because he was the only one acceptable to God as King of His Kingdom. God called Isaac 'your only son' when speaking to Abraham, but he was not the only son of Abraham. God knew this, of course, but He meant that Isaac, and his descendants, was the only one who had the right to inherit the land that God wanted to give to Abraham. Both these terms had nothing to do with birth in the sight of God.

Thank you for your perseverance and I do hope that I have managed to clear up any misunderstanding that has arisen about this matter. It is very hard to understand.

Dear ExMilitary,

thank you for asking interesting questions.

Your answer leads me to believe you are saying that the divine nature of God existed in the man Yeshua from conception, forward.

Your first sentence is right. Whether we should call it a conception is debateable. The angel Gabriel did, however, say to her, "And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS." Luke 1: 31. All he meant to say was that she shall become pregnant.
God the Father created this child Jesus in the body of his mother Mary, because He said He would do that. And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Genesis 3:15. The Saviour was to be from the woman only because it was her seed that should destroy Satan. God created the woman through using living tissue from the man and now He creates a man by using living tissue from the woman.

The divine nature and the human nature became inseparably linked together as the Holy Spirit awakened this egg cell of Mary to life. From that moment on the Word of God was able to experience what it was like to be human. Jesus was a complete human being, with a body and spirit turning him into a living soul, which also made him into a proper member of the human race, although he never had Adam as a forefather. Your next sentence is somewhat confusing.

That the Father was one with Him from conception... Is that a correct statement?

According to theology it was not the Father who took upon Himself the nature of a man but the Word of God only; if that is what you meant. Or are you referring to what Jesus said to the Jews, namely, "I and my Father are one." John 10: 30. The apostle John recorded these words for us in his gospel. Therefore, we must allow him to interpret what Jesus actually meant. In John's first letter he wrote the following, "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." 1 John 5: 7. The Word and the Father are one and always were from eternity. However, Jesus was one with them in the same sense that we, as humans, become one with the Godhead. It is important to make this distinction. 

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. John 17: 20 & 21.

The Word of God did not possess this body of Jesus as would a demon possess the body of its victim. There was a very special fellowship between the human spirit of Jesus and the Word of God. We too enjoy fellowship with God but Jesus had fellowship with the Almighty in a manner that no other man, or woman, could ever achieve, and still does. I do not believe that Jesus was referring to his creation as he mentioned this to the Jews. I believe that the Word of God was saying this statement. Otherwise we must believe the Jews who thought he had seen Abraham with his own two human eyes.

Much of what you write sounds a lot like some of what I've read from the Continuing Church of God.  Is that just coincidence?

I have never heard of this church nor do I know what they believe. What the Messiah taught and what the apostles believed is more important to me. Both Old and New Testaments witness to an everlasting kingdom with God Almighty as its founder. A kingdom without subjects cannot possibly be a kingdom. It would also not be a kingdom without a king. So God appointed the Lord Jesus Christ to be its King, as He did with all rulers of the earth in their realms.

Would you say you hold a non-Trinitarian view?  Maybe Binitarian/Semi-Arian?

People have always called God by different names and one of them is the Trinity. In German they call God 'die Dreieinigkeit'. I often wonder what language God would choose if He were to call Himself by this name. In the past God has called Himself by many names and I see no need for us to add to this list. Why do you prefer to call Jesus by his Hebrew name Yeshua?

I do believe in one almighty Being we call God. Within this Being there are the Creator, His Word and His Spirit. Which of these are able to acknowledge and consciously receive our worship? The Being or the Creator, His Word and His Spirit? Who do we mean when we say that we worship God? The love of God is anchored within the being of God but who is it that loves us?
I am neither Binitarian, Semi Arian nor do I believe in Sabellianism. Trinitarians are, I believe, also Binitarian when it comes to the Person of the Lord Jesus. If Jesus had no human personality, or if it was totally suppressed by the Word of God, then I cannot see how the Messiah could be fully man and fully God.

And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man. Luke 2: 52.

How could Jesus do this without having a personality of his own? Does God increase in wisdom?

Thank you, ps49, for endeavouring to understand what the Holy Scriptures seek to tell us about God and the Messiah. It is not so simple as one would expect. God the Father has not done just one thing with the Messiah - saving people for example -  but many things. I shall try and explain what we know about the Messiah in conjunction with what you have written.

I was not making a distinction between the Word of God and the Son of God but rather between the divine nature and the human nature of the Messiah. People tend to neglect the human nature of the Messiah and in particular, the purpose that the human nature fulfils in the plan and will of God. The Lord Jesus Christ is indeed God but should we say the same of Jesus? Was this name given to God or to a human being by the angel Gabriel? Yeshua means, "God is salvation", but why did God choose this name for the son of Mary? God wanted to demonstrate that He is the One who is saving people from slavery to sin and Satan and not a mere human being.
As the Israelites returned from Babylon to Judah God sent the priest and scribe Ezra to them to teach them His Law and Covenant. Without the intervention of Ezra the Israelites would have fallen away from worshiping and obeying God again. After his death the Israelites/Jews began to revere Ezra as the saviour of the inhabitants of Judah and the Jewish religion. They simply forgot that God was behind everything. That is why God gave the saviour the name of Yeshua, or Jesus as we know him, in order to remind us of this fact.

You are right to believe that the Word is also God in the same manner as the Father and the Holy Spirit are. All three exist within the Being of God and each are fully God; not a part of God, because each of them possess the Being of God in its entirety. The Being of God, together with its attributes, is not divided amongst the Father, Word and Holy Spirit. The Being of God is the medium through which the Father, Word and Holy Spirit create and sustain all things, which happens through the guidance and determination of all Three. The Father, Word and Holy Spirit are eternal, almighty etc. because that is what the Being of God is in its essence. One should not refer to God as 'it' but I only did so to create a distinction. However, all Three participate in the fulfilment of God's Will but in distinct ways. Creation is accredited to the Father only but the Word and Holy Spirit are also involved in creation. Father, Word and Holy Spirit are distinct in their existence and not different. All Three are self conscience and conscience of each other. They also are in possession of self determination but act in harmony with each other and the Will of God.

Jesus of Nazareth was a perfect human being, who later became the Messiah and the Son of God. The Messiah and the Son of God did exist at his birth but that was the Word of God, Who came into this world by means of the birth of Jesus. The angel, who spoke to the shepherds by night, explained it with these words.

For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. Luke 2: 11

In this verse we are faced with a grammatical difficulty. The person born in Bethlehem is 'a Saviour' but is also referred to as someone 'which is Christ the Lord'. Now, the words 'Christ ' and 'Lord' are terms used to describe the offices of High Priest and King. This new born child was indeed a saviour but was he able to perform the duties of a High Priest and King? Yet of all these terms are spoken of in the present tense with the word 'which' preceding them. No one would call a new born babe High Priest or King but the angel did. To be a High Priest one had to be a descendant of Aaron and to be a King over Israel one must trace his roots back to King David. God, however, has the right to overrule the customs of man because He is the One who actually appoints the High Priest and King of Israel. Jesus was indeed both a son of Aaron and of David but not in a way that gave him the right to assume these offices. Instead, Jesus was to become a High Priest and King in a much better way than anyone before him. According to the book of Hebrews, that is. The Word of God is the true High Priest and King, Who can exist eternally, and was present at the birth of Jesus because He was united to him. Jesus was, however, officially ordained to these offices at his baptism by none other than God the Father Himself. The term Son of God was synonymous with the promised King of Israel because of the covenant that God made with King David.

I believe that the Father called His Word the Messiah as He elected us in Him before the foundation of the world. The Word was commissioned by God the Father to save those of the human race that were given to Him as His folk. The Word was only able to accomplish that through the agency of a human being, who was specially created for that purpose.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will. Ephesians 1: 3 - 5.

What do these verses teach us? Firstly, the Father was also the God of our Lord Jesus Christ because Jesus, as the Son of man, treated Him as such. Through the Lord Jesus Christ God is able to bless those whom He has elected. When did the election take place? Before the foundation of the world. So election is one of these blessings but we were elected to salvation in 'Christ' - or Messiah - and not the Lord Jesus Christ because only the Word of God was present then. The result of this election is that we are predestined to be adopted by God the Father which takes place in a time after Jesus was born, hence by Jesus Christ. Therefore, I conclude, that the name Messiah was given to the Word at the time of our election by God the Father.

It was the Word that was referred to as Christ the Lord by the angel speaking to the shepherds that night. Before the creation of Jesus the Word of God was not able to achieve the perfect righteousness of the law, which was necessary for the reconciliation of the elect to God the Father. It was at the time of the incarnation that the Word became the Son of God with the means of obeying the Father through observance of the Law of God.

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Philippians 2: 6 - 8.

In the likeness of a man the Word became obedient to God to the point of sacrificing Himself for the elect. The Law demands that sons obey their fathers, does it not? This is why The Word of God has become the Son of God.

God's Word is as eternal as God Himself, otherwise He could not be the Word of God. Through His unification with this human being the Word did not lose anything that had to do with His Divinity. The Word did not change into a human being but was expressing Himself through humanity without having to forfeit His right to express Himself as God or to be the express image of the Father to us. We often say that God the Father has revealed himself through His creation. Similarly so the Word has been revealing Himself through His humanity. God is immanent in His creation but the creation does not become God because of this fact. Why then should we believe that a man became God because the Word of God was immanent in him?

God has undoubtedly manifested Himself through the Lord Jesus Christ but not solely through a human being. The Word of God was manifesting God through Jesus by giving us a clearer understanding of the Almighty and His Will. This was the purpose of the Word becoming flesh. However, neither divinity or humanity were diminished through this unification. If anything, humanity was raised to a new level, which God intended for humans all along. When we speak about the 'Lord Jesus Christ' we mean both natures but the word 'Christ' can also be restricted to the divine nature at times. Just as the name Jesus could be speaking of the human nature.

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. Hebrews 2: 9.

I hope this explanation has helped you somewhat. I didn't want to write so simply that it would lead to further confusion. However, if this answer raises any other questions in your mind please fell free to ask.

I am influenced by two things. By the Holy Scriptures and by the Holy Spirit. It is they that reveal the will of God to us. However, God the Father is revealed to us through the Son, or His Word. We enjoy fellowship with God the Father through the Son and the Holy Spirit, because we also have fellowship with them also. It is only through the Holy Scriptures that we can understand the relationship between ourselves and God, which would require the Holy Spirit to enlighten us to God's efforts to reconcile us to Himself.

Why were all Israelites not called Jews and were everyone who lived in the Roman Empire called Christians? Calling ourselves Christians or Jews is not going to save us anymore than being baptized as an infant in the Roman Catholic Church. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5: 7 Does that sound heretical to you, Pete?

Is it right to worship the Son of God? The disciples of Jesus where in a boat as a storm began to blow. Jesus was not with them because he stayed on land to pray. By night he walked on water to the boat and calmed the storm after entering the boat. The disciples worshipped him after that.

And when they were come into the ship, the wind ceased. Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God. Matthew 14: 32 & 33

They worshipped Jesus after this miracle was performed, but who was it that did this miracle? Only God the Creator can do such things, which He does through the Holy Spirit. Jesus met a widow once, whose adult son was dead and about to be buried. After the son was raised to life the crowd praised God.

And he came and touched the bier: and they that bare him stood still. And he said, Young man, I say unto thee, Arise. And he that was dead sat up, and began to speak. And he delivered him to his mother. And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people. Luke 7: 14 - 16.

Jesus was indeed this great prophet but who spoke to the son who was dead? The Word of God spoke through Jesus because He was in him from the time of his creation in the body of his mother. Was it not the Word of God who became flesh? John 1:14. This was not the only time that the Word of God spoke to the dead, through Jesus, and they were brought back to life by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus was that great prophet who was like Moses. God spoke to Moses and Moses repeated what God wanted to say to others. This time it was the Word of God, who was revealing the will of God, through the mouth of Jesus. One day Jesus had an argument with the Pharisees. John 8. The argument had also to do with Abraham, who was the father of the Jews. The Pharisees were so offended at Jesus that they wanted to stone him to death.

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself. John 8: 56 - 59.

 Obviously the Pharisees thought that a human being was speaking to them. As Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I am", he was speaking about God. They took it to mean that Jesus was also speaking about himself which is why they wanted to stone him. The Word of God was saying these words and it was He who existed before Abraham, not Jesus, the Son of man.

The Messiah was to have both a human and a divine nature. This was necessary because the Word of God had to become part of the human race in order to save some of mankind. That is why He was placed inside the human egg cell of Mary so as to know what it was like to be human from the very beginning. This act of the Holy Spirit did not turn this human into a god: for if it did he would no longer belong to the human race.

People were right to worship Jesus, but they did not worship him as the Son of Man, instead they were worshipping the Word of God, who is the proper Son of God. It was prophesied of the Messiah that he would be a son born to a woman and the Almighty God.

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9: 6.

As Jesus was put on trial by the Jews at night time the High Priest asked him to tell him something. "I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God."  Matthew 26: 63. What exactly did he mean?

To a Jew the Messiah was also to be the Son of God. They also believed that God would make the Messiah king over the everlasting kingdom that God was to bring into the world. Only a descendant of King David was able to become this king because God promised King David that through the prophet Nathan. God also promised to be a Father to him and to call him His Son.

And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build me an house, and I will establish his throne for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore. 1 Chronicles 17: 11 - 14.

Since this kingdom was to last forever the Jews believed that the Son of God could never die. Anyone claiming to be the Messiah and died was rejected by the Jews as the promised King of Israel. This is why the Jews demanded from Jesus to come down from the cross, so as to prove that he is the Son of God.

And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross. Matthew 27:40

The kingdom of God came into being as John began his preaching ministry. Even then it was possible to enter into the kingdom of God. We are placed in this kingdom by the Holy Spirit, who enables us to believe in this kingdom.
 
The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. Luke 16:16

As citizens of this kingdom we are now free from the power that Satan had over us. The Son of God now protects us from Satan and temptation, although not completely until the day of resurrection comes. That is why the Almighty placed us inside His kingdom.

Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son. Colossians 1: 13.

This is why Jesus, the Messiah, was also thought of as being the 'Son of God'. God had chosen him to be this king shortly after his baptism by John the Baptist. That day God called Jesus his Son. John the Baptist was a witness to this fact.

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God. John 1: 29 & 34

Not only John the Baptist believed this to be so but a disciple of Jesus also.

Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel. John 1: 49

I am a humble servant of the Most High God and I do believe in the divinity of CHRIST Jesus our LORD.
Is that how you imagine a Jehovah Witness?

If I understand you properly, Pete, you are saying that two men came with the Lord God to visit Abraham at his home. Am I right? You are of the opinion that these men should not be considered as being angels, for, if they were, then that would mean that the Lord God did appear as an angel of the Lord. Even as an angel of the Lord, God can be still be mistaken as being a man, can He not? The two examples from the book of Judges prove that, don't you think?

If they were men, and not angels, as you say, then they must have been born to someone who was their mother. Then they had to grow up to become adults before they could be described as men. If that did not happen then we must assume that God created them just before He met with Abraham. Now we know from Genesis 18: 22 that these two men left the company of God and Abraham and went towards Sodom. In Genesis 19: 1 we read that instead of two men arriving at Sodom it was two angels. So if we look up the two words of 'men' and 'angels' in a Hebrew / English dictionary, and assume that the bible was being literal, then we are faced with a problem. The bible seems to contradict itself.

It would seem that Lot took them for angels because he bowed down to them. The women, who went to the tomb of Jesus shortly after his resurrection also bowed down to someone.

And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments: And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead? Luke 24: 4 & 5

Now, if two men appeared out of nowhere dressed in bright clothes, would one mistake them for human beings? But the bible mentions that they were men. Something similar happened just before the resurrection of Jesus.

And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow: And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men. Matthew 28: 2 - 4.

The angel, who came from above and rolled away the stone, was also described as having white clothes and whose face shone. This time the bible describes him as an angel. The guards, like the women, were also frightened. They reacted differently by fainting and not by bowing down. Did the women see angels or men?

Although Lot knew they were angels, he still offered them food which they did eat. Some citizens of Sodom noticed the arrival of these angels, and where they stayed because they probably knew where Lot lived. They also mistook them for men who looked attractive to them. Later on they went to Lot's house, together with other men, and demanded that Lot gives these two men over to them.

And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, And they said, Stand back. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door. But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door. And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door. Genesis 19: 9 & 9 - 11.

Is it possible for men, inside a house, to cause other men to become blind, who are outside of this house? Again the bible speaks of them as being angels in verse 15 but as men in verse 16. Why is this so? As the angels were taking the family of Lot out of the city by holding each one by the hand, they did not want to draw attention to themselves by looking different to those around them as they were passing through the city. This would explain why they were called men in verse 16.

And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city. And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city. Genesis 19: 15 & 16.

Is there also a contradiction between these two verses?

Quote from: ExMilitary: You have still not answered my very simple question.

I included the answer to your question with the answer to Pete's Question. Sorry about that. Here is the answer.

Jesus had both a heavenly Father and an earthly father. God was his heavenly Father and Joseph was his earthly father. God breathed life into the human egg cell of Mary and it began to grow into a boy child; just like it would have done had it came in contact with a sperm from a man. Although Joseph was not the biological father of Jesus God expected of Joseph to behave as a father to him. That is why God told him, through an angel in a dream, to marry Mary when he wanted to call off the wedding because he thought that she had been unfaithful to him. Matthew 1: 20 & 21.

God did not create another divine being in the body of Mary for then there would be two Gods and not one. Instead He created a human being. This is not the reason why Jesus should be called the Son of God. In one sense Jesus was like God because he had no desire to sin, like other human beings, and did not commit any sins.

Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Hebrews 4: 14 & 15.

God was as pleased with Joseph as He was with Mary which is why God wanted Joseph to raise up the boy Jesus as a father would. Jesus would have been keeping the fifth commandment of the law of God by honouring, and obeying, Joseph as his father. Jesus also believed that God was a Father to him. As he was twelve years old Jesus decided to stay behind in Jerusalem in order to speak to lawyers and theologians in the temple of God. Was he being disobedient to his parents? No. They may not have seen Jesus on the day they had to return because they thought that he was with relatives or friends. So they had no opportunity to tell him to return to Nazareth with them. When they found Jesus Mary said, "Thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing." Jesus replied, "I must be about my Father's business." Now if 'Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man', is that not proof that he was human. Luke 2: 52. Not having a biological father does not make Jesus to be divine because he had a biological grandfather called Heli which is further proof of his humanity.

The centurion and other people said this; "Truly this was the Son of God." They applied the name 'Son of God' to a human being who died on a cross. They assumed that he was no longer the Son of God. Were they right in doing so? No. In Mark 15: 39 the centurion said, "Truly this man was the Son of God."

But are you right in assuming that a human being was with God the Father before the world was? Is it not more proper to say that the Word of God was with God the Father before the world was, making Him to be the Son of God. John 1: 1 & 2.

No. The Father and Son were coexistent from before the world was.

God has been manifesting and revealing Himself to mankind and forever will. God was manifest in the flesh, whom we call Jesus. Was it necessary for Jesus to become more than human in order for God to manifest Himself through him?

God did appear unto Abraham and Isaac in order to talk to them; just as He did with Adam and Eve, but did God have to assume human form to do so? He also manifested Himself to Moses as an angel, not as a burning bush.

And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. Exodus 3: 2

God appeared as an angel to Gideon, who later recognized the angel to be God Himself.

And when Gideon perceived that he was an angel of the LORD, Gideon said, Alas, O Lord GOD! for because I have seen an angel of the LORD face to face. And the LORD said unto him, Peace be unto thee; fear not: thou shalt not die. Judges 6: 11 - 23.

God also appeared as an angel to the parents of Samson. They too thought that they might die.

Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the LORD. And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God. Judges 13: 2 - 23.

When God revealed Himself through human beings it was mostly through prophecy.

God did at one time reveal Himself to a crowd of Jews in Jerusalem through a group of people who spoke in many different languages to them. Acts 2: 4 - 11. This He did through His Holy Spirit who was the One speaking to the crowd about 'the wonderful works of God'.

Jesus had both a heavenly Father and an earthly father. God was his heavenly Father and Joseph was his earthly father. God breathed life into the human egg cell of Mary and it began to grow into a boy child; just like it would have done had it came in contact with a sperm from a man. Although Joseph was not the biological father of Jesus God expected of Joseph to behave as a father to him. That is why God told him through an angel in a dream to marry Mary when he wanted to call off the wedding because he thought that she had been unfaithful to him. Matthew 1: 20 & 21.

God did not create another divine being in the body of Mary for then there would be two Gods and not one. Instead He created a human being. This is not the reason why Jesus should be called the Son of God. In one sense Jesus was like God because he had no desire to sin, like other human beings, and did not commit any sins.

Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Hebrews 4: 14 & 15.

God was as pleased with Joseph as He was with Mary which is why God wanted Joseph to raise up the boy Jesus as a father would. Jesus would have been keeping the fifth commandment of the law of God by honouring, and obeying, Joseph as his father. Jesus also believed that God was a Father to him. As he was twelve years old Jesus decided to stay behind in Jerusalem in order to speak to lawyers and theologians in the temple of God. Was he being disobedient to his parents? No. They may not have seen Jesus on the day they had to return because they thought that he was with relatives or friends. So they had no opportunity to tell him to return to Nazareth with them. When they found Jesus Mary said, "Thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing." Jesus replied, "I must be about my Father's business." Now if 'Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man', is that not proof that he was human. Luke 2: 52. Not having a biological father does not make Jesus to be divine because he had a biological grandfather called Heli which is further proof of his humanity.

Manifest in the flesh of Jesus Christ, wasn't the first time that God chose to reveal Himself in the flesh of a man, because he appeared to Abraham as a man as well:

In what way was Jesus the Son of God? Jesus was the name given to the male child, who was a human being, born to Mary. Jesus was different to all other human beings that were born to women. He was created by God to be free from sin but all other humans are brought into contact with sin from their existence in the womb. God also choose him to be someone in whom God, as the Word of God, was to be within. God had a close relationship with Jesus through this union between them both.

King David was loved by God from his youth onwards. His son Solomon was also loved by God from an early age. God promised to King David that another child of his would one day also rule over the children of Israel for ever. This person was to be Jesus the son of Mary. God said to King David that He would be a father to him and Jesus would behave as His son. This Jesus did by obeying God in all things. That is why God called Jesus "my beloved son". This is why the Jews also called the Messiah 'the Son of God'. The Word of God was the one pleasing the Father by being obedient to Him in the life of Jesus.