Islam, Muslim / Christian Forum - Welcome All

Quote from: resistingrexmundi on November 08, 2009, 08:44:36 AM
I am not entirely sure what you are trying to convey with this verse... Please clarify.

If you would watch the video you might understand...

Your "Combat Kit" is flattering Ahmed Deedat who published a pamphlet with the same title:
http://www.ahmed-deedat.co.za/Books/Books/ck/index.html

I don't agree with Ahmed Deedat but I understand why he has resorted to such a strong approach towards those who insult and slander others.

They asked if Muhammad was the anti-Christ: Satan's Anti-Christ 666 : Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nA_-h2uuSA

This is advise that we had better consider: "Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. "
Matthew 7.1-6, also Luke 6.37

The reason I'm here is because there is another interpretation of the Gospel that you, modern Christians, even the disciples missed that I am trying to share with you. If you believe that Jesus the man was also a God, I'm sorry I can't help you:

Quote from: PeteThe Gospel is the exact opposite of what they would have chosen to write if a bunch of pharisees had wanted to deceive somebody.

Jesus warned about the pharisees because he knew how they twisted the scriptures and deceived the people.  They tried to kill Jesus to prove that he was not the Messiah but Jesus was not killed because he is the Messiah...

Quote from: PeteHowever every sect of Judaism, as well as Christians, recognize that Jesus died on the cross. That's because it is a widely recognized historical event. Additionally, if someone didn't recognize that, they couldn't be a Christian. Simple as that - for the last 2,000 years.

I tried to mention before that there were early Christians who did not accept the crucifixion...  But the point is that Jesus fullfilled the scriptures against the Jews and cursed them, in return they embelished his ministry with lies and blasphemy about a man god... The fact is that Jesus was sent only to Israel because only those well versed in the scriptures and the prophets would have understood, idolators certainly can't understand.  Even the disciples who knew little of the prophets were confused and perplexed at some of Jesus' teachings, they were even afraid to ask him.

Well, thats all Pete, you assume too much and you insulted me enough in this forum.

Quote from: Peter on October 10, 2009, 03:05:37 PM
Doesn't it make you feel foolish when you quote from the very testament you label as idolatry?

I'm not a fool. It is not the testament that is idolatry, it is your interpretation of it.

I have attempted to show you that there is another meaning to the ministry of Christ, one of mercy and obediance. What you follow is corruption propagated by the false teachings of the pharisees: How often does Jesus warn against their lies and hypocracy?  Yet today we find the whole of christendom ignoring his words and conforming to the idolatry of the church.  Christendom has made the Messenger an idol and rejected the message.

The pharisees expected a warrior king to lead them back to their former glory but when Jesus taught mercy and obediance they rejected him.  Similarly today you and your fellow idolators expect Jesus to return as the warrior king yet when he returns teaching the same mercy and obediance you will reject him too... and will want to kill him too?

Quote from: Peter on October 10, 2009, 03:05:37 PMYou pretend that Jesus never made Himself God, even as you recognize the Jews accused Him of it in what you quote, and were going to stone Him for it as blasphemy.

Jesus never made himself God, if he had believed that he was God he would have been a bit more clear about it. This has become such an important issue to you yet Jesus himself never seemed to make it important... such an issue would have been made very clear to every one and Jesus would have left no doubt by saying: 'I am God' and he would have repeated it throughout his ministry.

But Jesus never once said he was God, he never said 'I am God'. You want to believe that a man is God you will have to scrape together little verses here and there and reinterpret them out of context.

The verse in John 10.30 is clear to me that Jesus refered to the Book of Pslams: "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."  Pslam 82.6

What does it mean to you: 'You are gods; and all of you are children of God.'

Does it mean you are the son of God? Does it mean that I am the son of God? In this sence Jesus is the son of God and so am I. And yes, Brother Pete you are also the son of God.

Your 'new covenant' is idolatry, Jesus is your graven image, your idol, your likeness and figure of God.

Quote from: PeterJhn 10:30 I and [my] Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

"The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken..."  John 10.33-35

"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."  Pslam 82.6

Quote from: Peter on October 09, 2009, 07:32:27 AMPlease answer to your first paragraph first, then we can more easily tackle the later points. That's why I saved this.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=732.msg2956#msg2956

I responded with this verse: "Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing..."

God does not manifest Himself as in your hypothetical question, "take on the flesh of a man - to form the body of a man..." Nor would He, "...buy the house next door to you, and move in..."

Certainly God can do anything that He wants and is not limited; yes, He can take on flesh; and yes, He can buy the house next door and move in, yet God does not need to in order for us to believe in Him.   God had defined Himself in the Covenant and warned against taking on an image of anything: "...or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth." Exodus 20.4, Deuteronomy 5.8

The point is not 'who' the Covenant was given to, nor any other issue concerning the time and place of the Covenant. It does not matter if it was given to the Jews, the Gentiles or the Children of Israel...  I don't understand why you keep bringing this up.  The point is that God is God and not anything else, not a man, not a bush nor a cloud.

Anyone who claims that Jesus is God has simply ignored the Covenant and has "corrupted" himself.  Do these warnings mean anything to you?

"Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget..."
"Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female..." Deuteronomy 4.23, 15-16

Quote from: PeterIf God had not manifest, or revealed Himself to mankind, how would we know He existed?

"An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign..." Matthew 12.39, 16.4, Mark 8.12, Luke 11.29

You need a sign and a manifestation?  You need God to reveal Himself to know that He exists?  Sorry, but that's just plain idol worship!

Quote from: Peter on October 08, 2009, 06:19:44 AM

Did God make this covenant with Gentiles like you and I jimi, or with His chosen people the Jews?

This covenant was made with the Children of Israel.

Quote from: resistingrexmundi on October 06, 2009, 12:58:32 PM

Quote from: jimi on October 06, 2009, 12:09:06 PM

Quote from: Peter on October 05, 2009, 01:55:40 PM

Let me ask you again jimi:

1. If God wanted to reveal Himself to us as a man in the flesh and walk among us, could He? If God wanted to do that, and buy the house next door to you and move in, could He, if He so chose to do so?

2. And let me also ask again, can you deny that you follow a thief?

1. No.

2. Yes.

Then by your first answer you deny that God is all powerful. He manifested Himself many ways throughout history. As a burning bush, as a cloud, as a pillar of fire, etc. You have essentially relegated God to what your mind can fit around. Trying to finitely explain the infinite...

By your first question: "If God wanted to reveal Himself to us as a man... could He?"  I assume that you are refering to Jesus and I answered, "No".

God did not reveal Himself as a man, nor as a bush: "And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush..." Exodus 3.2

Nor is God a cloud nor a pillar of fire. Moses and the Israelites were not commanded to worship the bush nor the cloud nor the fire but to worship God: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth..." Exodus 20.3

"Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female..." Deuteronomy 4.15-16

So when you worship any man or person or thing, including Jesus, you are violating the law and the Covenant that God made.  God did not break His covenant even though He can, as you say, He is all powerful and can do anything if He chose to do so.  But God has defined Himself in this Covenant and if you choose to worship any man or figure, the likeness of male or female... it is you who has broken the Covenant.

And no, Pete, it is not as you say, 'what my mind can fit around.'  It is what God has promised and has warned: "Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee. For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God." Deuteronomy 4.23-24

i don't find these questions relevant to this topic.

lets start another: Manifestation of God

Pete,

You assume too much.

Quote from: Peter on October 05, 2009, 01:55:40 PM

Let me ask you again jimi:

1. If God wanted to reveal Himself to us as a man in the flesh and walk among us, could He? If God wanted to do that, and buy the house next door to you and move in, could He, if He so chose to do so?

2. And let me also ask again, can you deny that you follow a thief?

1. No.

2. Yes.

Thanks Pete but I'm still waiting for resistingexmundi to respond:

Quote from: jimi on September 29, 2009, 11:11:55 PM
"...is MORE than ALL whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." 

Mark 12.33-34

Quote from: resistingrexmundi on September 29, 2009, 06:15:10 AM
And look at that. We are full circle right back to the Messiah...

Right back to my original point that obediance is more than all offerings and sacrifice; that the crucifixion is not the main message of the Bible but obeying the Word of God is: "Go learn what this means, 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice.'"

"...And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices."  

Mark 12.33-34

That verse has nothing to do with sacrifice:

"I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people...

"Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood. And whatsoever man there be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, which hunteth and catcheth any beast or fowl that may be eaten; he shall even pour out the blood thereof, and cover it with dust. For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off."
Leviticus 10,12-14

These verses refer to the consumption of blood! You are making the mistake not me; these verses have nothing to do with the 'spirit' of the Law:

Quote from: resistingrexmundi on September 23, 2009, 11:58:54 AM
You ...try to use the letter of the Law to anull the spirit of the Law.

Have you anulled the letter of this law too? And does that mean you are therefore cut off? "Cut off" is very serious, it means like you are out of touch, discarded or exiled.  I think thats what happens to people who don't follow Gods Law and its quite obvious when you start to accuse me of anulling the Law that you yourself don't even follow.

Do you resistingrexmundi? Can you really accuse me of anulling the law?

"The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

Deuteronomy 24.16

Quote from: resistingrexmundi on September 22, 2009, 12:51:00 PM

What biblical verses?...

These Biblical verses:

Quote from: jimi on September 10, 2009, 10:21:36 PM
For I spake not... concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God..."

Jeremiah 7.22-24

Quote from: jimi on September 10, 2009, 10:21:36 PM
"I desire obediance not sacrifice."

Matthew 9.13, 12.7; Hosea 6:6

Dr. Dirks refers to several early Christians who rejected the crucifixion and mentions verses from the Apocrypha including The Apocalypse of Peter and The Acts of John:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/actsjohn.html

I think these are proofs that there is evidence in the historical record that Jesus was not crucified and that several early Christian congregations rejected the crucifixion.

QuoteWhat false teaching? That Jesus was crucified? That He wasn't?

It is clear that the crucifixion is a false teaching according to the Biblical verses I mentioned earlier, also the fact that the Jews believe that the Messiah will not be killed. Because modern Christians contend that the Messiah was killed, the Jews reject Jesus Christ.

QuoteThe Gospel, which means "Good News" or "glad tidings" is the news that Jesus gave Himself on the cross so we could be saved. It is what the Gospel IS.

The 'good news' of the Gospel is the Kingdom of God that few were able to understand: "Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given... they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand." Matthew 13.11,13

Jesus was not crucified.  Early Christians did not accept the crucifixion of Jesus and Jews denied Jesus as the Messiah because of this false teaching. Here is the evidence:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2m4KW-dysKk

My original point is the four gospel writers differed because they simply weren't there.  The first three wrote that all the disciples abandoned Jesus, even all those who knew him or were even aquainted with Jesus and only watched from a distance.  Only John writes that some were there, yet John puts the crucifixion not only at a different time but on a completely different day!

These statements are initially intended to raise doubt about the crucifixion but the whole doctrine of sacrifice to pay for sin is rejected by Jesus, Hosea and Jeremiah: "I desire obediance not sacrifice."

Pete asks what do i think happen to Jesus?

Answer: One of his disciples took up the cross and gave his life knowing that Jesus would raise him back from the dead.

Quote"Anti-Christ are the Jews who deny Jesus as the Messiah, not Islam"

I believe this statement is logical and self-evident; the Jew certainly deny Jesus as the Messiah and are therefore "against" Jesus as the Christ. They curse him and refuse to even mention him name!

On the other hand, Islam acknowledges him as the Messiah.

I have read the New Testament and the Gospel but, I'm sorry, I don't understand the 'primary subject'. The question of 'what is the primary subject' is perhaps another topic, however; I would like to limit our discussion to the issue of crucifixion in the Christian faith contrasted with these Biblical references and in the context of the verse of the Quran presented above:


"For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

"...And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." Mark 12.33

The difference between Modern Christianity and Islam:

"...so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture..."

Yet the four accounts of the crucifixion do not agree:
"And it was the third hour, and they crucified him." Mark 15.25
"...and about the sixth hour..." John 19:14
Last words on the cross: http://www.rationalchristianity.net/last_words.html
Sign on the cross: http://www.rationalchristianity.net/sign_cross.html
More contradictions:  http://atheism.about.com/od/gospelcontradictions/p/Crucifixion.htm

"For many bare false witness against him, but their witness agreed not together." Mark 14.56

The four, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John also note that none of the disciples were present but watched from a distance, from afar and that they had all abandoned him and left him alone.  Thus it can be concluded that they had no knowledge, only conjecture.
John alone mentions who was at the crucifixion, yet not in agreement with the other three.
They had no knowledge, even the authorities, the priests and the Romans did not know Jesus nor recognized him from the 12 but employed Judas to identify him. They did know who they had crucified. It could have been one disciples who understood Jesus and took up his cross:

"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." Matthew 16.24

"...And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." Matthew 10.38

The 12 were not worthy, nor were the four. Only Simon of Cyrene took up the cross and he was not even considered a disciple.

those who differ therein are full of doubts

And the four accounts confirm this:

"O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?" Matthew 14.31
"O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves...
"How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?" Matthew 16.8-11

Death on the cross is not the covenant of Jesus but the plot by his enemies to discredit him as the Messiah.  Anti-Christ are the Jews who deny Jesus as the Messiah, not Islam:

"O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah."

The warning is beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees who have corrupted the message with lies and false teachings including the sacrifices and offerings to pay for sin: "For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you. But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward." Jeremiah 7.22-24

"But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice..." Matthew 9.13, 12.7; Hosea 6:6.